Author Topic: Celven Agorophobia  (Read 4791 times)

Dar

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Celven Agorophobia
« on: October 10, 2018, 07:05:24 PM »
Good Day.

This topic have been raised a few times in a few celven themed forum threads. It have never been given the official staff stance on any of the forum posts. At least not in the last 10 years, or trackable by forum searches anyway. It's not mentioned in documentation at all. Originally I took it as, well everyone plays differently. I often myself advocated for celves to be city bound completely, coming out only when the need is dire, but there was never an actual staff canonical statement. Evidently at least one player was scolded about it. So why not clear the topic up?

What is Celven relationship to wilderness? Celven are supposedly wonderers, does wondering apply to wilderness, or city bounds only?

Would it be possible to form a few potential hypothetical situations in which it would be reasonable for a Celf to frequent wilderness often. Can Celves make wilderness the main theatre of their operation? The source of their income/influence/power. What form could it take?

Is it reasonable for a Celf to greb for spice to smuggle and sell in the city?
Is it reasonable for a celf to harvest poisons to smuggle and sell in the city?
Is it reasonable for celf to raid the roads outside the cities?
Is it resonable for a celf to hunt/greb/forage to sell inside the city?
Is it reasonable for a celf to hunt/greb/forage for materials for his personal use?
Is it reasonable for a celf to hunt/greb/forage for material that their tribe uses?
Any other scenarios and situations that players should read and understand, to further avoid disappointment, miscommunication, and misunderstanding.


What kind of aspects would it be unreasonable for a celf to do in the wilderness? What possible aspects of the gameworld could potentially force a celf to venture into the wilderness.

Thank you in advance.

Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2018, 07:08:08 PM »
Quote
You are asking the wrong questions.

City elves spend most of their time in the city. That is their environment. Like the desert is the environment for desert elves. To the extent that years ago city based guilds were removed as options for desert elves, completely. And rangers were removed for city elves, completely. And in the new dynamic, criminal focused classes are not available to desert elves. Wilderness focused classes are not available to city elves.

Classes represent the potential competencies that a character can develop. In this case what the code is saying is that as a city elf or desert elf, you will not be in that environment enough to develop competencies, as such an encompassing statement that we have removed the class option altogether.



My apologies for reposting this. But I couldnt really answer in the 'ask the staff' section. Please understand, your response is not enough, Brokkr. What your response boils down to is that Celven are not competent in the wilderness. And that's fine. But this isnt the question. The question is how 'thematic' is it of them to do it regardless. And it is a question that should be elaborated, because (If I read it right?) someone lost karma over being a wilderness prone Celf? I might be misremembering the post?  It is my opinion that this topic should explored and illuminated most thoroughly and then canonized, so there is no further misunderstandings.


It will affect some simple decisions.

For example. A celven warrior, an enforcer thug. His Boss/tribemate asked for some poisons.

Should the Celf
A: Try to hire a half-elf breed to ride out and harvest the poison that 'only' grows in the wilderness.
B: Go there himself, or perhaps in a group of elves, to harvest the poisons themselves.

Is there a risk of appearing unthemathic and not following the Celven in theme behavior to do B? If so. Okey. I myself am a proponent of THAT behavior personally. But this should be spelled out, in case someone is misunderstanding and later suffering due to the misunderstanding.  Think of it as important as a simple question of, "Should a dwarf have a focus?"
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 07:11:48 PM by Dar »

Delirium

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2018, 07:17:33 PM »
Should city-elves embrace the inherent limitations of their role as a hook to interaction and roleplay, or should they finagle a thinly veiled excuse to accomplish or acquire whatever they need without having to rely on other players or outside interests?
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

only_plays_tribals

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 07:52:22 PM »
Delfs totally go inside "walls" like black wing and luirs to do trade and meet people. I'm not sure I understand why a celf would not be able to go outside to accomplish some general mundane or role play related activity.

I don't play elves but I'm curious about the nature of agoraphobia as it applies to them (I'm something of a psych buff)

Agoraphobia is a fear of being in situations where escape might be difficult or that help wouldn't be available if things go wrong.

If a celf takes another celf with them, or any other party whom they "trust" as defined by the documentation, thus providing themselves "help" to allay this fear, is that not valid?

Do delf's not experience Agoraphobia in the same way, or should they refuse to enter walled settlements, or leave the areas they are most familiar with (the Pah)?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 08:03:42 PM by only_plays_tribals »
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

puella

  • Posts: 517
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 08:06:07 PM »
From >help desert elf roleplay (emendations in hard brackets based on context):

"Also, [desert] elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked to for safety. The further an [desert] elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in."

Is there something similar in >help city elf roleplay?  And what about a city elf that has lost its tribe, which is, in my experience, a good percentage of the backgrounds that PC city elf's adopt.

I would propose for >help city elf roleplay:

"Also, [city] elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, which in the case of a city elf means that it will rarely leave the gates.  The further a [city] elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in.  This is true even for city elves who have lost their tribe."





Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 10:22:54 PM »
Should city-elves embrace the inherent limitations of their role as a hook to interaction and roleplay, or should they finagle a thinly veiled excuse to accomplish or acquire whatever they need without having to rely on other players or outside interests?

Their role? Alright. What is their role? They're not smugglers. Because smuggling means they need stuff to smuggle. Stuff that originates from outside of the city they live in. They're not wonderers, because again, they're bound to the city. They're not just completely and purely a criminal element, because they're too numerous to make that sustainable. Personally? I enjoyed playing celves as farangi, but that's my take on it, which is not canon. There is no need to oversimplify, or somehow innuend someone's ability to be a roleplayer, or give rather vaguely shaped responses and content. It's not constructive, please understand.  What I ask for is clarity. Because, guess what, someone evidently did suffer from the ambiguity of the current celven docs. I just suggest to fix it and remove the ambiguity. Hopefully staff will talk it over and decide on some canons.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 10:36:04 PM by Dar »

yousuff

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 03:46:03 AM »
(snipped by user)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:16:55 AM by yousuff »
yousuck

Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 04:02:30 AM »
Mmm. In all honesty. I would prefer this thread to be a little less drama, or controversy. Whether deserved, or not. Less discussion about your particular issue (which should be discussed in full detail via request tool), and a topic that should help elven gameplay for everyone from there on. Let's just call all this bygones. I'd be more interested in updated detailed docs, so misunderstandings do not happen further. I mean your case is convoluted and I think is some variation of an exception to the rule. But then Vox also lost karma (didnt get karma? something like that) over a similar issue. So this 'is' an issue that truly should be explored more.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:07:11 AM by Dar »

yousuff

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 04:17:44 AM »
Well that's fair. I suppose for the sake of conversations sake I'll remove the above.

Also Vox's problem is 100% related to my own. It's the same issue and the same characters involved. They were denied karma, and I had the above now redacted requests sent to me where they brought up mention of a ban I received 5 years ago, threatened to store me and said they weren't there to play rules lawyer with me as celven agoraphobia is the way it's always been despite no mention in docs.

With regard to not trying to stir up strife with staff, I wish to emphasise I'm not trying to troll or call them out but the above is definitely an issue that requires address.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:35:20 AM by yousuff »
yousuck

tapas

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 04:41:31 AM »
I remember a discussion on the Soh Lana Kah forum from like 2007. We had a influx of players and some vigorous debate on whether or not the elves would travel off their turf.

So we'd get some players that said, elves should never leave the tablelands for any purpose.

And there were players like me that said, how the heck am I supposed to make arrows without any feathers?

And then the other players said, well you should trade for them.

And then I asked why would I spend weeks organizing a trade for a common resource that I could spend a day and a half hunting for?

And they told me it was because it was against documentation.

I said what documentation?

They pointed to the documentation that said they weren't nomadic, they were semi-nomadic and therefore they never left the tablelands.

I asked them even if they were semi-nomadic, why would that prevent a hunter from stepping off their territory to gather a resource?

They told me I was a bad roleplayer.

And then I got on a kank and rode for the grasslands to hunt hawks for their feathers.

MeTekillot

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 07:41:32 AM »
Should city-elves embrace the inherent limitations of their role as a hook to interaction and roleplay, or should they finagle a thinly veiled excuse to accomplish or acquire whatever they need without having to rely on other players or outside interests?

Stop trolling.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 07:46:02 AM by MeTekillot »
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

only_plays_tribals

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 09:14:08 AM »
The "old" docs referring to "elven roleplay" in the racial roleplay section.

Seems to indicate elves, at least desert elves, can leave their "area" and the mental health ramifications of it are up to player interpretation. This would make sense for agorophobia to have varied anxiety related effects, when triggered.

Quote
Desert elves disdain life in the cities and have been known to fare poorly if they spend too much time confined away from the wide open. This varies from severe wasting depression to even an anxiety-based insanity.

It doesn't sound like elves aren't allowed to leave, it just sounds like they should gradually become more agitated if they do.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 09:15:08 AM »
It also talks of delves, not celves.


And then I got on a kank and rode for the grasslands to hunt hawks for their feathers.


golf clap.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 09:35:00 AM by Dar »

only_plays_tribals

  • Posts: 221
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2018, 10:12:58 AM »
Indeed, it only says delfs. It seems as though there is no such specific guidance for celf's agoraphobic behaviour in the docs, unless one is supposed to draw from the mention of agoraphobia as experienced by delfs, and apply it racially. (But in reverse.)

The current docs for celf's actually say..

Quote
The elven population in cities is in a state of constant flux, as various tribes move in and out, die off, go into hiding, move into other parts of the city, or otherwise simply move

Which to me appears to indicate that celf's can and do, leave their cities, in order settle in others. As it clearly differentiates between moving to other parts of the city. It goes on to say the nomadic interests of celf's can include:

Quote
domination of the other elven tribes nearby, great wealth, presence in every city

Note that it doesn't say other city elf tribes, just elven tribes. And it clearly states presence in every city which would obviously require travel between them.

Honestly we could debate all day but it won't matter until staff prescribes a set of examples and rules that define the scope.

The docs however, in present form, do not at all suggest it's unthematic for an elf, city or desert, to leave the area they are most familiar with for specific reasons. So long as these reasons are of benefit to the tribe, and in the interest of it's expansion and success.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

only_plays_tribals

  • Posts: 221
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2018, 10:25:39 AM »
Honestly I find the concept of agoraphobia in elves extremely interesting. I'm curious about how this will be laid out.

Psychology today indicates that "Heritability for agoraphobia is reported to be 61 percent, making it the phobia most strongly linked to the genetic factor that represents predisposition to phobias" and "being raised in a household characterized by little warmth and high levels of overprotection" is a significant hereditary factor, which makes the disorder appear quite rational for an elf to have.

In theory one could claim that sedatives, such as alcohol or spice, which tend to be abused by patients IRL with the disorder, could reduce some of the symptoms. In theory one could claim that "going outside with a friend" which is a common tactic to help IRL patients cope, to give them some modicum of perceived safety is a perfectly logical method of overcoming such anxiety as well. If we are actually going to claim this is a form of agoraphobia, at least.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2018, 11:13:38 AM »
Honestly we could debate all day but it won't matter until staff prescribes a set of examples and rules that define the scope.

qft.

In reality, this conversation have happened numerous times and the last time it happened, folks were actually pointing out that there is no mention of agoraphobia of any kind in any of celf docs. It was a good enough point for me to begin to doubt myself, because I literally could not remember where did I get the whole agoraphobia thing from. Now, I suspect I got it from some conversation via e-mail, or request tool 15 years ago. Which is ... probably not the best method of spreading important information regarding a prevalent worldscape lore.

Delirium

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2018, 12:36:44 PM »
I apologize for the snark. I thought the response to the original post was pretty clear. "Use common sense," basically.

City elves are the red-headed stepchild of playable Armageddon races, that is for sure.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Marauder Moe

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2018, 12:41:29 PM »
While I'm not an elf expert, this stricter interpretation of c-elf roleplay is new to me.  Just about all the best non-'rinth c-elves I've played with would have been forced-stored if this is how it is.

Synthesis

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2018, 01:35:19 PM »
C-elf agoraphobia is a new thing I've never heard about, either.
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Seeker

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2018, 02:32:31 PM »
I always thought that limiting the permissible classes for c-elves was a simple, effective way of defining their outlook and roles.   This new interpretation would have been a surprise and would have tripped me up, too.

I think I remember a hint of something like this from the restricted clan docs for a 'rinthi elf tribe or two.  It probably fits that concept very well.  Probably not as well as a blanket enforced expectation for all c-elf concepts all over the Known.

I guess I don't understand what the benefit "c-elf agorophobia" is supposed to create in the gameworld.
Sitting in your comfort,
You don't believe I'm real,
But you cannot buy protection
from the way that I feel.

Lutagar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 04:29:40 PM »
i don't see the problem with celves getting the same benefits as delves now that rukkians are a subguild

won't go into too much detail as to what i mean with this, but my understanding is the reason celves were gimped is because a solo player being able to use max archery with super hide and the delven running ability was considered problematic

there's now ways to do this without being a delf that's much more powerful than merely being a delf

the point im making is, why can't celves be hunters again? the power scale has dramatically shifted since ye olden days
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:33:32 PM by Lutagar »

650Booger

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 05:34:03 PM »
meeting 'rinth elves at the gem can be slightly jarring
"Historical analogy is the last refuge of people who can't grasp the current situation."
-Kim Stanley Robinson

Seeker

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 06:00:38 PM »
meeting 'rinth elves at the gem can be slightly jarring
Is it more jarring them meeting a 'rinth dwarf there?  Why?
Sitting in your comfort,
You don't believe I'm real,
But you cannot buy protection
from the way that I feel.

650Booger

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2018, 06:06:29 PM »
good question.  I can only think of one reason, a 'rinth dwarf would be kill on sight for most of the local residents of that area, whereas an elf might make them hesitate.
"Historical analogy is the last refuge of people who can't grasp the current situation."
-Kim Stanley Robinson

Inks

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2018, 01:04:13 AM »
Celfs can go outside, they just have extreme disadvantages compared to other races out there so most prefer not to.
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Cind

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2018, 03:43:20 AM »
In my mind, its a balance between roleplay and convenience. One should not completely trump the other or players will start losing interest in that role.

For example, some of my humans end up practically living in a cave or enclosed area where they mine or forage, since clearing a quarry or deposit when your forage skill is below journeyman can take a little over a game day. Sometimes, its also a good idea for my characters that can leave the gates (nonemployed) to stay away from the city for longer periods, due to Shit Going Down, since my characters who aren't insane don't want to become dragon or noble fodder.

If I were playing a c-elf I make sure I don't do this. Why? "I feel uncomfortable staying outside for that long." That's basically what it boils down to. They don't know the words 'psychology' or 'culture.' If my character has strong reason to be uncomfortable somewhere, than they will be, at least past a certain number of game hours.

Other people play differently. Of course they will. Honestly, as long as their c-elf isn't riding a beetle and covered in tribal paint I'm pretty happy.
Playing something new could be just what you need!

Brokkr

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2018, 12:46:27 PM »
Quote
You are asking the wrong questions.

City elves spend most of their time in the city. That is their environment. Like the desert is the environment for desert elves. To the extent that years ago city based guilds were removed as options for desert elves, completely. And rangers were removed for city elves, completely. And in the new dynamic, criminal focused classes are not available to desert elves. Wilderness focused classes are not available to city elves.

Classes represent the potential competencies that a character can develop. In this case what the code is saying is that as a city elf or desert elf, you will not be in that environment enough to develop competencies, as such an encompassing statement that we have removed the class option altogether.



My apologies for reposting this. But I couldnt really answer in the 'ask the staff' section. Please understand, your response is not enough, Brokkr. What your response boils down to is that Celven are not competent in the wilderness. And that's fine. But this isnt the question. The question is how 'thematic' is it of them to do it regardless. And it is a question that should be elaborated, because (If I read it right?) someone lost karma over being a wilderness prone Celf? I might be misremembering the post?  It is my opinion that this topic should explored and illuminated most thoroughly and then canonized, so there is no further misunderstandings.


It will affect some simple decisions.

For example. A celven warrior, an enforcer thug. His Boss/tribemate asked for some poisons.

Should the Celf
A: Try to hire a half-elf breed to ride out and harvest the poison that 'only' grows in the wilderness.
B: Go there himself, or perhaps in a group of elves, to harvest the poisons themselves.

Is there a risk of appearing unthemathic and not following the Celven in theme behavior to do B? If so. Okey. I myself am a proponent of THAT behavior personally. But this should be spelled out, in case someone is misunderstanding and later suffering due to the misunderstanding.  Think of it as important as a simple question of, "Should a dwarf have a focus?"

The first question that would come to mind is how would the C-Elf know where to go, or how, to harvest the poisons?  Beyond that, facts and circumstances.

As far as I know we haven't recently approached folks that were going for the occasional outside run.  The concern was folks spending a majority of their time outside a city with a C-elf, or expressed a desire in doing things that could lead to this.

Vex

  • Posts: 228
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2018, 04:35:30 PM »
The first question that would come to mind is how would the C-Elf know where to go, or how, to harvest the poisons?  Beyond that, facts and circumstances.

As far as I know we haven't recently approached folks that were going for the occasional outside run.  The concern was folks spending a majority of their time outside a city with a C-elf, or expressed a desire in doing things that could lead to this.

How, does anyone from Allanak, know how to do any of the things they do?

It shouldn't really matter if it's a protracted adventure, or a five minute jaunt. There is nothing, and I do mean NO-THING, in the docs, pertaining to city elves, about this supposed agoraphobia, nor is there any real indication that anyone, can find/identify any documentation, pertaining to it. There is phrasing in the docs, that even suggest they do tend towards some roaming, as has been pointed out.

There is ABSOLUTELY no documentation that mentions, references, or even suggests in definitive terms, that there is celven agoraphobia, and it is a strict requirement. Not only this, but I can say, from personal experience, as having played one who was almost exclusively an "adventurer" type, that I had never once had staff approach me about it. I had that character for, what, over a year, and interacted with people, from virtually every clan in the game.

How can, someone who is a walking, talking, monster slaying poster child, for this, apparently karma dumping offense, never get so much, as a "hey, whats up with you?", from staff, in such a long period of time?

Your argument, is all smoke. It's propped up, EXCLUSIVELY, because you are a member of the staff and people are wary of upsetting you, because you hold some sway over their karma, and their ability to enjoy the game. Had you been a regular player, and tried to press this argument, players would be piling on you from every side. And everyone knows it.

If you've got the docs, and can provide a reasonable argument, for how a new player is supposed to come, to your preferred conclusion, show me. I'll bow out, I'll concede I was wrong. I'll never post on the GDB again. I'll retire my pc, and never roll an elf again. You name it.

But, I don't think you can.

As I said in a request, as politely as I could manage, the IDEAL solution to this, would be an update to the documentation, to outline this, apparently new/unknown expectation, eliminating player confusion and misunderstanding. Just amend one paragraph, for all of us dummies, who can't interpret your vision. It's so easy.

Fixing docs and letting the pbase know, via announcement or log in news, is way easier, than mending fences, with people who presume themselves persecuted, or otherwise poorly treated, by high handed staff.

Being reasonable, isn't hard. Just try.
"Mortals do drown so."

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2018, 04:37:06 PM »
i'll just leave a tidbit of a reminder that there is no racial difference between city and desert elves. they are the same race.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

seidhr

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2018, 06:38:52 PM »
Posting anything that could link you to a previous PC (alive within the last year) is against the rules.  Just a reminder.

seidhr

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2018, 07:16:19 PM »
We have amended the "help city elf" help file with information that specifics our expectations for city elves and travel.

This information also applies to desert elves, in a converse sense, but we have not seen this be a problem with d-elves, and it's already covered specifically for them in the existing "help desert elf roleplay" helpfile.

Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2018, 07:40:08 PM »
Seems pretty solid.


Would this have helped you some Vex, if you read it prior to the problems you mentioned?

Vex

  • Posts: 228
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2018, 08:58:48 PM »
Seems pretty solid.
Would this have helped you some Vex, if you read it prior to the problems you mentioned?

It would have, and will going forward. There is never a situation, wherein knowing more about your role, is a bad thing. Many frustrations, on both sides, can be alleviated, by something so simple. I'd also add that, it is well-written and completely in line, with everything that was explained to me, through requests.

Having it there, in the open, for everyone to see, can only be a benefit to new, and not so new players alike.

Well done.
"Mortals do drown so."

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2018, 09:06:50 PM »
I feel like that was an entirely unnecessary change that's only going to be used to bludgeon people who are only trying to make the best of playing what is already a garbage-ass racial choice.

Don't get me wrong...I play a lot of city-elves...but only because I enjoy the challenge of being garbage.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 576
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2018, 10:19:45 PM »
The new helpfile additions seem to be implying that city elves are not allowed to permanently move from one civilized settlement to another. Is this true?

Vex

  • Posts: 228
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2018, 01:45:16 AM »
I feel like that was an entirely unnecessary change that's only going to be used to bludgeon people who are only trying to make the best of playing what is already a garbage-ass racial choice.

Don't get me wrong...I play a lot of city-elves...but only because I enjoy the challenge of being garbage.

It was an issue, even before this thread was raised.

Now, it's properly documented, and people will know about it. I've ruffled enough feathers over this, that I don't care to debate the merits of the change, but I do feel, it was a positive outcome, and a step in the right direction.
"Mortals do drown so."

yousuff

  • Posts: 245
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2018, 04:37:45 AM »
I feel like that was an entirely unnecessary change that's only going to be used to bludgeon people who are only trying to make the best of playing what is already a garbage-ass racial choice.

Don't get me wrong...I play a lot of city-elves...but only because I enjoy the challenge of being garbage.

It was an issue, even before this thread was raised.

Now, it's properly documented, and people will know about it. I've ruffled enough feathers over this, that I don't care to debate the merits of the change, but I do feel, it was a positive outcome, and a step in the right direction.
+1
yousuck

Erythil

  • Posts: 1259
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2018, 03:28:57 PM »
I've never heard any of this, and I've seen a lot of really competent c-elf outdoorsmen, in the Kuraci Fist, for example.  Some of these people were sufficiently badass that the rest of us stoically endured the absurd bullshit of having a whole convoy of mounts and wagons sit and wait for the one dude to rest up in a tent because apparently he's racially incapable of sitting on a wagon platform.

Maybe city elves don't have a natural talent for the wilderness, but who does have a natural talent for a wilderness full of things that can twoshot any mortal?

Shalooonsh

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2018, 06:46:45 PM »

Maybe city elves don't have a natural talent for the wilderness, but who does have a natural talent for a wilderness full of things that can twoshot any mortal?

I tried to think of a simpler way to say it, but the least I could cut it down to is two words:

Desert elves.
I seduced the daughters of men
And made the death of them.
I demanded human sacrifices
From the rest of them.
I became the spirit that haunted
And protected them.
And I lived in the tower of flame
But death collected them.
-War is my Destiny, Ill Bill

Drayab

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2018, 11:32:25 PM »
Years ago I was playing a hunter human who started up a friendship with a celf craftsman. Of course, it was very awkward at first, racial distrust and all that. Then one day the celf decided we were going to go hunting together. My hunter of course said this was a terrible idea because it the celf would obviously need babysitting while out there, since they suck in the wilderness. The celf made up some excuse about 'needed to see how you work' or something like that. Basically, they insisted that we were going to do this thing. Of course, this was the elf's way to testing whether my human was trustworthy. I have no idea of the player of that elf had some backup plan in case I decided to backstab him, but I didn't. We had a successful hunt together, and for long after those characters had a profitable friendship. It was the most memorable human-elf friendship I ever played. So, don't tell me there can't be good RP reasons for a celf to go in the desert!

Brokkr

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2018, 12:39:26 PM »
I've never heard any of this, and I've seen a lot of really competent c-elf outdoorsmen, in the Kuraci Fist, for example.  Some of these people were sufficiently badass that the rest of us stoically endured the absurd bullshit of having a whole convoy of mounts and wagons sit and wait for the one dude to rest up in a tent because apparently he's racially incapable of sitting on a wagon platform.

Maybe city elves don't have a natural talent for the wilderness, but who does have a natural talent for a wilderness full of things that can twoshot any mortal?

Competency is not what we are talking about at all.

The role play restrictions for the race is what we are talking about.

Delirium

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2018, 12:48:17 PM »
I do think it's nonsense that elves can't guard an argosy while it's moving. It isn't as if they're relying on it for transportation. They are doing a job. They're not on the back of a creature, letting it be their legs, they are guarding property. Same with skimmers. Let elves take skimmers out, it's not a situation where (normal) people can walk on the silt sea, and a skimmer is an inanimate object controlled by the elf's own skill.

Realistically, an elf would be able to walk alongside an argosy at the pace it travels without having to stop to rest, but due to the way the stamina code works, they don't regain stamina unless actually sitting down. So until and unless that gets fixed, just fudge things a bit to let elf players participate without having to make every mission annoying from a code standpoint.

We really have to consider playability from a game standpoint when insisting on certain restrictions to this ride-or-die (literally, lol) "ELVES ONLY USE THEIR OWN TWO FEET" logic.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 01:02:29 PM by Delirium »
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2018, 12:57:13 PM »
Roleplay restrictions:  designed and intended to be the cheesy low-level, throw-away antagonist PC that you play while waiting for your karma to regen for your next real PC.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2018, 01:14:35 PM »
Yep
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

Brokkr

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2018, 12:37:50 AM »
Designed to give a challenge to folks focusing on challenge in their role play, rather than folks looking for a coded challenge.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 12:39:21 AM by Brokkr »

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2018, 05:48:12 AM »
But like, it's also an enormous coded challenge, so double the challenge. Double the fun
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2018, 11:30:12 AM »
Ha, yeah.  It just boggles my mind that for years players have been begging Staff to make c-elves less shitty, and what do they do...make 'em shittier (if only slightly so).
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2018, 12:14:29 PM »
I've never found them to be much of a coded challenge, as long as they stayed in a city?

At least vs any other character that just stayed in a city.  It was more RP challenges in not being able to join clans, etc.  This reinforces them staying in their nice comfortable city environment where they can be shifty, and not trying to live out in the wastes were they are, indeed, shitty.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2018, 12:24:41 PM »
What are the roleplay challenges of playing a dwarf to go with their beefy coded benefits?
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

Veselka

  • Posts: 1107
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2018, 12:54:51 PM »
I've never found them to be much of a coded challenge, as long as they stayed in a city?

At least vs any other character that just stayed in a city.  It was more RP challenges in not being able to join clans, etc.  This reinforces them staying in their nice comfortable city environment where they can be shifty, and not trying to live out in the wastes were they are, indeed, shitty.

It would be cool if there were coded benefits to being in a city -- Passive stamina regeneration, for instance, to sort of mirror Desert Elves' ability to run long distances in the wastes. Improved passive bonuses to hide and sneak while in the city. They should be the 'king of shifty' in the city for sure, and it'd be cool to offer them some coded reasons to stay in a city rather than risk their neck in the wilderness.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2018, 12:58:20 PM »
I've never found them to be much of a coded challenge, as long as they stayed in a city?

At least vs any other character that just stayed in a city.  It was more RP challenges in not being able to join clans, etc.  This reinforces them staying in their nice comfortable city environment where they can be shifty, and not trying to live out in the wastes were they are, indeed, shitty.

While this is no longer relevent to the topic, but Brokkr. You ever tried climbing around the rooftops as a Celf with 80 hp max? Celves have a 'lot' of challenges, but that's why I think of them as hardmode and play them relentlessly, arent I.

Brokkr

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2018, 01:44:19 PM »
Yes. I've typically had no fail climb, or close, before I starting messing around at the tops of buildings though.

Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2018, 04:13:53 AM »
I like c-elves as they are. Let people accept the challenge.
Playing something new could be just what you need!

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19113
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2018, 05:28:51 AM »
c-elves would be fine as they are, with all their challenges, if they could represent a tribe, which their documentation is basically steeped in.

As is you play elf if you want to play a loner that will be despised and get shit levels of interaction. That isn't a challenge. You can overcome a challenge. This is more like a gigantic wall of restriction, with no ways  around or over, no ways to overcome such a hurdle.

yousuff

  • Posts: 245
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2018, 08:27:12 AM »
c-elves would be fine as they are, with all their challenges, if they could represent a tribe, which their documentation is basically steeped in.

As is you play elf if you want to play a loner that will be despised and get shit levels of interaction. That isn't a challenge. You can overcome a challenge. This is more like a gigantic wall of restriction, with no ways  around or over, no ways to overcome such a hurdle.

Do a family rolecall with elves. It's much more fun, you can aspire to create a coded tribe which is what I tried. Turns out the particular niche I tried though is incompatible with the new celven docs, but if you're to try a displaced Tuluki tribe or something you might have more luck.
yousuck

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2018, 12:30:43 PM »
The fact that a single elf tribe or two or three elf tribes haven't risen to levels of significant prominence in Allanak (besides Jaxa Pah who, surprisingly, go against elf documentation in some ways) is an oversight.
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

Miradus

  • Posts: 2250
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2018, 03:16:38 PM »
Yes. I've typically had no fail climb, or close, before I starting messing around at the tops of buildings though.

I don't believe in no fail climb. I've fallen with AI agility and advanced climb with "no problem" weight carried while holding two ropes.

What's helped me was learning where the cutoffs were for damage upon impacting Miner's Road from what height and making sure I stay at a z-level below that which will kill me. Inside Allanak there's a lot of 2 room climbs but most of the 3 room climbs have better ways down (from 3rd level to 2nd level down to 1 level) instead of just jumping out over a gulf that leads 3 rooms down and hoping you don't fail.


seidhr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 561
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2018, 05:41:11 PM »
I don't believe in no fail climb. I've fallen with AI agility and advanced climb with "no problem" weight carried while holding two ropes.

Advanced is a pretty big range, if you were at the low end of it, you still weren't capped yet even in the above situation.

I had a desert elf who was at high advanced climb and exceptional agility, and never - never failed climb - for months (so the skill never went higher).  Then I had a birthday and my agility went down because I was no longer the elven equivalent of a teenager, and I started failing climb.  Failed a few times, all within a day or two, and the skill went from advanced to master.  Then I never failed again for the rest of that PC's (long) life.

Miradus

  • Posts: 2250
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2018, 05:52:53 PM »

Something I hadn't considered. :(

I don't have any way of knowing where I was on the advanced range. I was probably still failing more than I liked, but I didn't keep good track of it.

I've also noticed that not all climbs are equal. Some are easier than others. Are you willing to confirm or deny that the climb itself has a range in the skill check? (And is there any way a player can tell before attempting it?)

Brokkr

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2018, 06:16:36 PM »
I don't believe in no fail climb. I've fallen with AI agility and advanced climb with "no problem" weight carried while holding two ropes.

If it makes you feel better, I've also had a HG with no fail climb, years ago. It's not just elves.  But elves have the best chance of getting to that point.

Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2018, 06:25:44 PM »
I still advocate that elves who pick guilds/subguilds that grant them ride/pilot should have the ability to exchange those skills for climb.

Miradus

  • Posts: 2250
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2018, 06:26:57 PM »
I find that maddeningly funny for some reason. :)

In sort of the same way I internally snicker whenever I see a half-giant try and sneak out of the room.


Narf

  • Posts: 850
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2018, 01:19:51 AM »
I still advocate that elves who pick guilds/subguilds that grant them ride/pilot should have the ability to exchange those skills for climb.
Ride has an alternative use that elves are allowed to make use of.

I think pilot should be replaced though.

Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2018, 11:44:25 AM »
What use is that for a celf? Who should not be going into wilderness regularly. Taming rats?

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 865
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2018, 12:14:21 PM »
City elves can't pick a class that gets ride.  Only subclasses.

Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2018, 12:20:14 PM »
Oh. Bah. My bad. Been playing a merchant for years with it's annoying ride/pilot skill :D.

Well, Artisan still gives you pilot. Which is of course, entirely unuseable by an elf.


Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2018, 11:34:47 PM »
I've never understood the skimmer thing, which I've talked about with staff through email.

You see--- to me--- elves can't be ashamed of using a skimmer because you'd have to be a freakin' witch not to have to use a skimmer in the silt. I mean--- are they ashamed because they aren't witches? What's up with that one? Piloting, I can kind of get, because you're still riding when you could be walking.

Being part of a huge elven nation in the city would be great. I didn't get the chance to play Akai in Tuluk, although all my elves there were offered work by them. Being large enough to garner some small modicum of respect with pointed ears would be a unique experience.
Playing something new could be just what you need!

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2018, 11:59:33 PM »
Who cares about skimmers?

The Silt Sea is just a stupid death trap.

I mean, honestly...how long do you think you're going to sail around when there are silt horrors around blind corners and fleeing isn't an option?
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1107
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #68 on: October 20, 2018, 03:54:46 AM »
Who cares about skimmers?

The Silt Sea is just a stupid death trap.

I mean, honestly...how long do you think you're going to sail around when there are silt horrors around blind corners and fleeing isn't an option?

QFT. Silt Sea is awesome in Dark Sun as a PNP adventure, but in Armageddon?
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

number13

  • Posts: 1060
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2018, 12:59:27 PM »
Being large enough to garner some small modicum of respect with pointed ears would be a unique experience.

If you can get squeeze respect out of the goofy round-ears with their funny little stubby legs, then you're doing it wrong.

Vex

  • Posts: 228
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2018, 04:32:21 AM »
Do a family rolecall with elves.

Not really playing, atm, but wanted to comment.

Can confirm, it is much more enjoyable, than loner-for-life elf.

A lot of the worst aspects of being an elf, are eliminated by having a few pcs to interact with, in a true-to-elf tribal setting. It does, indeed, feel like that is how they were originally intended to be played, as the coded negatives are compensated for, by having tribe members you can depend on.

It also causes most players, to do a complete turn around, when they realize, they're not dealing with some solo rogue, with garbage stats. The "I-kill-all-elves-come-at-me-bro" BS, which is just, unimaginably, unrealistically rampant, disappears right away, when two or three of your tribe walk in, ready and willing to do just that.

If you are on the fence, about trying elves? Do an elf rollcall. It's a whole different experience, and not to be missed.
"Mortals do drown so."

Strongheart

  • Posts: 278
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2018, 05:24:37 AM »
Fujikoma spotted.

Acquiring target...

Confirmed: not an nineteen year old female - irrelevant to current topic.

Eliminating...

Error: Pointy boi too fast. Execution terminated. Awaiting further instruction.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 278
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2018, 05:36:09 AM »
In all seriousness though, Fujikoma is right. Elves are a thrill to play even if they seem to attract the more PK hungry crowd.

Unfortunately there's not much we can do about people blaming the pointy boi for everything other than encourage people to RP as their character. Which in this case? Elves are usually the ones to blame for most things despite being a huge percentage of the population.

Miradus

  • Posts: 2250
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2018, 01:51:05 PM »

Embrace it.

"Yeah, I stole your shit. You didn't see me do it then and you won't see me the next time. Want it to stop? Here's my list of demands. Oh, don't want to comply? Enjoy buying a new mount every time you come to town."

The Jade Saber's are (as required by plot law) absolutely ineffective at stopping crime. They're only ever going to be able to catch a criminal who brazenly sits down at the Gaj after a heist. And what self-respecting criminal is going to do that? Drink northside with the real OG. Or bribe the hell out of the Jade to ignore all complaints from the unaffiliated mensch. How effective do you think a real-life police force would be if they didn't get paid and were fed only burnt tubers? When you see a Jade soldier walk by decked out in a lot of digital bling-gear ... that's the fucker to make friends with.

I personally always considered it a show of respect when I walked into a room and everyone started closing packs and bags. I considered it my just due when I looked at anyone and saw "Richie Rich is watching you."

Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2018, 03:29:24 AM »
Lol, that's beautiful. I love elves like that.

As a squishy human my first instinct when an elf calls me over with dice is to get out, but I let them ply me with a con. I was probably the first person to give them an ear all day, and kudos to them if its not a stupid enough one to make any sane person run off.

#celftribedocs
Playing something new could be just what you need!