Author Topic: Celven Agorophobia  (Read 4789 times)

Dar

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Celven Agorophobia
« on: October 10, 2018, 07:05:24 PM »
Good Day.

This topic have been raised a few times in a few celven themed forum threads. It have never been given the official staff stance on any of the forum posts. At least not in the last 10 years, or trackable by forum searches anyway. It's not mentioned in documentation at all. Originally I took it as, well everyone plays differently. I often myself advocated for celves to be city bound completely, coming out only when the need is dire, but there was never an actual staff canonical statement. Evidently at least one player was scolded about it. So why not clear the topic up?

What is Celven relationship to wilderness? Celven are supposedly wonderers, does wondering apply to wilderness, or city bounds only?

Would it be possible to form a few potential hypothetical situations in which it would be reasonable for a Celf to frequent wilderness often. Can Celves make wilderness the main theatre of their operation? The source of their income/influence/power. What form could it take?

Is it reasonable for a Celf to greb for spice to smuggle and sell in the city?
Is it reasonable for a celf to harvest poisons to smuggle and sell in the city?
Is it reasonable for celf to raid the roads outside the cities?
Is it resonable for a celf to hunt/greb/forage to sell inside the city?
Is it reasonable for a celf to hunt/greb/forage for materials for his personal use?
Is it reasonable for a celf to hunt/greb/forage for material that their tribe uses?
Any other scenarios and situations that players should read and understand, to further avoid disappointment, miscommunication, and misunderstanding.


What kind of aspects would it be unreasonable for a celf to do in the wilderness? What possible aspects of the gameworld could potentially force a celf to venture into the wilderness.

Thank you in advance.

Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2018, 07:08:08 PM »
Quote
You are asking the wrong questions.

City elves spend most of their time in the city. That is their environment. Like the desert is the environment for desert elves. To the extent that years ago city based guilds were removed as options for desert elves, completely. And rangers were removed for city elves, completely. And in the new dynamic, criminal focused classes are not available to desert elves. Wilderness focused classes are not available to city elves.

Classes represent the potential competencies that a character can develop. In this case what the code is saying is that as a city elf or desert elf, you will not be in that environment enough to develop competencies, as such an encompassing statement that we have removed the class option altogether.



My apologies for reposting this. But I couldnt really answer in the 'ask the staff' section. Please understand, your response is not enough, Brokkr. What your response boils down to is that Celven are not competent in the wilderness. And that's fine. But this isnt the question. The question is how 'thematic' is it of them to do it regardless. And it is a question that should be elaborated, because (If I read it right?) someone lost karma over being a wilderness prone Celf? I might be misremembering the post?  It is my opinion that this topic should explored and illuminated most thoroughly and then canonized, so there is no further misunderstandings.


It will affect some simple decisions.

For example. A celven warrior, an enforcer thug. His Boss/tribemate asked for some poisons.

Should the Celf
A: Try to hire a half-elf breed to ride out and harvest the poison that 'only' grows in the wilderness.
B: Go there himself, or perhaps in a group of elves, to harvest the poisons themselves.

Is there a risk of appearing unthemathic and not following the Celven in theme behavior to do B? If so. Okey. I myself am a proponent of THAT behavior personally. But this should be spelled out, in case someone is misunderstanding and later suffering due to the misunderstanding.  Think of it as important as a simple question of, "Should a dwarf have a focus?"
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 07:11:48 PM by Dar »

Delirium

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2018, 07:17:33 PM »
Should city-elves embrace the inherent limitations of their role as a hook to interaction and roleplay, or should they finagle a thinly veiled excuse to accomplish or acquire whatever they need without having to rely on other players or outside interests?
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

only_plays_tribals

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 07:52:22 PM »
Delfs totally go inside "walls" like black wing and luirs to do trade and meet people. I'm not sure I understand why a celf would not be able to go outside to accomplish some general mundane or role play related activity.

I don't play elves but I'm curious about the nature of agoraphobia as it applies to them (I'm something of a psych buff)

Agoraphobia is a fear of being in situations where escape might be difficult or that help wouldn't be available if things go wrong.

If a celf takes another celf with them, or any other party whom they "trust" as defined by the documentation, thus providing themselves "help" to allay this fear, is that not valid?

Do delf's not experience Agoraphobia in the same way, or should they refuse to enter walled settlements, or leave the areas they are most familiar with (the Pah)?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 08:03:42 PM by only_plays_tribals »
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

puella

  • Posts: 517
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 08:06:07 PM »
From >help desert elf roleplay (emendations in hard brackets based on context):

"Also, [desert] elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked to for safety. The further an [desert] elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in."

Is there something similar in >help city elf roleplay?  And what about a city elf that has lost its tribe, which is, in my experience, a good percentage of the backgrounds that PC city elf's adopt.

I would propose for >help city elf roleplay:

"Also, [city] elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, which in the case of a city elf means that it will rarely leave the gates.  The further a [city] elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in.  This is true even for city elves who have lost their tribe."





Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 10:22:54 PM »
Should city-elves embrace the inherent limitations of their role as a hook to interaction and roleplay, or should they finagle a thinly veiled excuse to accomplish or acquire whatever they need without having to rely on other players or outside interests?

Their role? Alright. What is their role? They're not smugglers. Because smuggling means they need stuff to smuggle. Stuff that originates from outside of the city they live in. They're not wonderers, because again, they're bound to the city. They're not just completely and purely a criminal element, because they're too numerous to make that sustainable. Personally? I enjoyed playing celves as farangi, but that's my take on it, which is not canon. There is no need to oversimplify, or somehow innuend someone's ability to be a roleplayer, or give rather vaguely shaped responses and content. It's not constructive, please understand.  What I ask for is clarity. Because, guess what, someone evidently did suffer from the ambiguity of the current celven docs. I just suggest to fix it and remove the ambiguity. Hopefully staff will talk it over and decide on some canons.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 10:36:04 PM by Dar »

yousuff

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 03:46:03 AM »
(snipped by user)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:16:55 AM by yousuff »
yousuck

Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 04:02:30 AM »
Mmm. In all honesty. I would prefer this thread to be a little less drama, or controversy. Whether deserved, or not. Less discussion about your particular issue (which should be discussed in full detail via request tool), and a topic that should help elven gameplay for everyone from there on. Let's just call all this bygones. I'd be more interested in updated detailed docs, so misunderstandings do not happen further. I mean your case is convoluted and I think is some variation of an exception to the rule. But then Vox also lost karma (didnt get karma? something like that) over a similar issue. So this 'is' an issue that truly should be explored more.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:07:11 AM by Dar »

yousuff

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 04:17:44 AM »
Well that's fair. I suppose for the sake of conversations sake I'll remove the above.

Also Vox's problem is 100% related to my own. It's the same issue and the same characters involved. They were denied karma, and I had the above now redacted requests sent to me where they brought up mention of a ban I received 5 years ago, threatened to store me and said they weren't there to play rules lawyer with me as celven agoraphobia is the way it's always been despite no mention in docs.

With regard to not trying to stir up strife with staff, I wish to emphasise I'm not trying to troll or call them out but the above is definitely an issue that requires address.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:35:20 AM by yousuff »
yousuck

tapas

  • Posts: 365
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 04:41:31 AM »
I remember a discussion on the Soh Lana Kah forum from like 2007. We had a influx of players and some vigorous debate on whether or not the elves would travel off their turf.

So we'd get some players that said, elves should never leave the tablelands for any purpose.

And there were players like me that said, how the heck am I supposed to make arrows without any feathers?

And then the other players said, well you should trade for them.

And then I asked why would I spend weeks organizing a trade for a common resource that I could spend a day and a half hunting for?

And they told me it was because it was against documentation.

I said what documentation?

They pointed to the documentation that said they weren't nomadic, they were semi-nomadic and therefore they never left the tablelands.

I asked them even if they were semi-nomadic, why would that prevent a hunter from stepping off their territory to gather a resource?

They told me I was a bad roleplayer.

And then I got on a kank and rode for the grasslands to hunt hawks for their feathers.

MeTekillot

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 07:41:32 AM »
Should city-elves embrace the inherent limitations of their role as a hook to interaction and roleplay, or should they finagle a thinly veiled excuse to accomplish or acquire whatever they need without having to rely on other players or outside interests?

Stop trolling.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 07:46:02 AM by MeTekillot »
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

only_plays_tribals

  • Posts: 221
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 09:14:08 AM »
The "old" docs referring to "elven roleplay" in the racial roleplay section.

Seems to indicate elves, at least desert elves, can leave their "area" and the mental health ramifications of it are up to player interpretation. This would make sense for agorophobia to have varied anxiety related effects, when triggered.

Quote
Desert elves disdain life in the cities and have been known to fare poorly if they spend too much time confined away from the wide open. This varies from severe wasting depression to even an anxiety-based insanity.

It doesn't sound like elves aren't allowed to leave, it just sounds like they should gradually become more agitated if they do.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 09:15:08 AM »
It also talks of delves, not celves.


And then I got on a kank and rode for the grasslands to hunt hawks for their feathers.


golf clap.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 09:35:00 AM by Dar »

only_plays_tribals

  • Posts: 221
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2018, 10:12:58 AM »
Indeed, it only says delfs. It seems as though there is no such specific guidance for celf's agoraphobic behaviour in the docs, unless one is supposed to draw from the mention of agoraphobia as experienced by delfs, and apply it racially. (But in reverse.)

The current docs for celf's actually say..

Quote
The elven population in cities is in a state of constant flux, as various tribes move in and out, die off, go into hiding, move into other parts of the city, or otherwise simply move

Which to me appears to indicate that celf's can and do, leave their cities, in order settle in others. As it clearly differentiates between moving to other parts of the city. It goes on to say the nomadic interests of celf's can include:

Quote
domination of the other elven tribes nearby, great wealth, presence in every city

Note that it doesn't say other city elf tribes, just elven tribes. And it clearly states presence in every city which would obviously require travel between them.

Honestly we could debate all day but it won't matter until staff prescribes a set of examples and rules that define the scope.

The docs however, in present form, do not at all suggest it's unthematic for an elf, city or desert, to leave the area they are most familiar with for specific reasons. So long as these reasons are of benefit to the tribe, and in the interest of it's expansion and success.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

only_plays_tribals

  • Posts: 221
Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2018, 10:25:39 AM »
Honestly I find the concept of agoraphobia in elves extremely interesting. I'm curious about how this will be laid out.

Psychology today indicates that "Heritability for agoraphobia is reported to be 61 percent, making it the phobia most strongly linked to the genetic factor that represents predisposition to phobias" and "being raised in a household characterized by little warmth and high levels of overprotection" is a significant hereditary factor, which makes the disorder appear quite rational for an elf to have.

In theory one could claim that sedatives, such as alcohol or spice, which tend to be abused by patients IRL with the disorder, could reduce some of the symptoms. In theory one could claim that "going outside with a friend" which is a common tactic to help IRL patients cope, to give them some modicum of perceived safety is a perfectly logical method of overcoming such anxiety as well. If we are actually going to claim this is a form of agoraphobia, at least.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Dar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2018, 11:13:38 AM »
Honestly we could debate all day but it won't matter until staff prescribes a set of examples and rules that define the scope.

qft.

In reality, this conversation have happened numerous times and the last time it happened, folks were actually pointing out that there is no mention of agoraphobia of any kind in any of celf docs. It was a good enough point for me to begin to doubt myself, because I literally could not remember where did I get the whole agoraphobia thing from. Now, I suspect I got it from some conversation via e-mail, or request tool 15 years ago. Which is ... probably not the best method of spreading important information regarding a prevalent worldscape lore.

Delirium

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2018, 12:36:44 PM »
I apologize for the snark. I thought the response to the original post was pretty clear. "Use common sense," basically.

City elves are the red-headed stepchild of playable Armageddon races, that is for sure.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Marauder Moe

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2018, 12:41:29 PM »
While I'm not an elf expert, this stricter interpretation of c-elf roleplay is new to me.  Just about all the best non-'rinth c-elves I've played with would have been forced-stored if this is how it is.

Synthesis

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2018, 01:35:19 PM »
C-elf agoraphobia is a new thing I've never heard about, either.
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Seeker

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2018, 02:32:31 PM »
I always thought that limiting the permissible classes for c-elves was a simple, effective way of defining their outlook and roles.   This new interpretation would have been a surprise and would have tripped me up, too.

I think I remember a hint of something like this from the restricted clan docs for a 'rinthi elf tribe or two.  It probably fits that concept very well.  Probably not as well as a blanket enforced expectation for all c-elf concepts all over the Known.

I guess I don't understand what the benefit "c-elf agorophobia" is supposed to create in the gameworld.
Sitting in your comfort,
You don't believe I'm real,
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Lutagar

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 04:29:40 PM »
i don't see the problem with celves getting the same benefits as delves now that rukkians are a subguild

won't go into too much detail as to what i mean with this, but my understanding is the reason celves were gimped is because a solo player being able to use max archery with super hide and the delven running ability was considered problematic

there's now ways to do this without being a delf that's much more powerful than merely being a delf

the point im making is, why can't celves be hunters again? the power scale has dramatically shifted since ye olden days
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 04:33:32 PM by Lutagar »

650Booger

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 05:34:03 PM »
meeting 'rinth elves at the gem can be slightly jarring
"Historical analogy is the last refuge of people who can't grasp the current situation."
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Seeker

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 06:00:38 PM »
meeting 'rinth elves at the gem can be slightly jarring
Is it more jarring them meeting a 'rinth dwarf there?  Why?
Sitting in your comfort,
You don't believe I'm real,
But you cannot buy protection
from the way that I feel.

650Booger

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2018, 06:06:29 PM »
good question.  I can only think of one reason, a 'rinth dwarf would be kill on sight for most of the local residents of that area, whereas an elf might make them hesitate.
"Historical analogy is the last refuge of people who can't grasp the current situation."
-Kim Stanley Robinson

Inks

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Re: Celven Agorophobia
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2018, 01:04:13 AM »
Celfs can go outside, they just have extreme disadvantages compared to other races out there so most prefer not to.
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