Author Topic: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant  (Read 1835 times)

MeTekillot

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Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« on: October 07, 2018, 11:24:12 AM »
Per the coins a merchant has in stock, set a player's weekly (RL?) or per-reboot income based on the player in particular, not on how many coins that merchant gets loaded up with and supplied with from sales. This cap could be adjusted based on the player's clan status and maybe their haggle skill.

This would cause Nobles and Merchant House motherfuckers to be the source of the fuck-you levels of money, rather than That Thing You Can Forage For 900 Coins A Pop and This Week's Half-Giant Victim Ankheg. People would prioritize selling to PC merchants and trading with PCs.

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mansa

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2018, 11:54:32 AM »
I prefer the method of removing the 'only buys 5 of an item' and making it more of a supply/demand type of market.

Merchant buys the first item at 100%, then the second at 90%, the third at 75%, the fifth at 50%, the 10th at 25%.
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MeTekillot

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2018, 11:56:50 AM »
I feel like that'd make the monster-money-machine-indie problem worse, not better.
Also, I like my cootch to have a pert pink color and nice smell. Knowing my luck I would bonk someone with AIDs, get rotten box, and die miserable.

Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2018, 11:59:39 AM »
This is an awful idea that would completely rework the entire balance of the games economics and leave any and all indie merchants to have absolutely no fun. And would also lead to rapid, heavy inflation and the devaluing of the average coin.

Besides, indie merchants would just get about this by having their buddies sell stuff to that merchant somehow. There would be a way of making it IC. And if you're going to ban all "selling on behalf of another person", congrats, you've actually broken GMHs and how crafters and merchants coexist.

I agree that the random ass forage stuff selling for 900 a pop is a bit OP however, and that does need reworking - perhaps if staff notice a non-crafted item being sold MANY times over weeks of play, that merchant can start refusing that item, stating something like "I've already got dozens of those in the back. Come back in a week or so." to encourage variety.

I remember something similar happening over a year ago IRL - a certain skinning item was ""rare"" up north until that point and had always sold for ### coins, but after a long while of people just carting up whole cratefuls of that item to sell for exorbitant profit, the price was cut by about 5/6ths, because hey, it's not so rare anymore.
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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2018, 12:03:29 PM »
I prefer the method of removing the 'only buys 5 of an item' and making it more of a supply/demand type of market.

Merchant buys the first item at 100%, then the second at 90%, the third at 75%, the fifth at 50%, the 10th at 25%.

This would worsen the issue of people taking high value items directly to the merchants on reset, since there are many items easily foraged or found or made that sell for THOUSANDS each - and getting good profit up to 8 pieces (100% on the first even!!) Would just make them way more potent than before.

I think how it works currently is a bit janky, but needs polishing and refining, not replacing - the alternatives seem worse.
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daughterofauset

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2018, 12:11:37 PM »
Considering that many of those items are gemstones of some sort or other, I don't think knocking down their worth by some great amount would make IC sense. There is a reason that the people who own diamond mines that produce IRL make bank. Now, what might be more fun as a way of handling it, might be tasking gmhs with warring over the productive mines - even Salarr and Kurac make stuff with bling time to time so no reason Kadius would have the only interest, even if they might realistically have the most interest. From there? Maybe the winning party gets x or y room gated off and an NPC with a bag and script that will only pay a dirt amount for item but buys more than five (ala the old NPC in Tuluk at the cotton field gates who you could sell cotton to). Dunno, but at least for gemstones, their IC worth makes sense and if someone wants to make it less available, there are plots that could be pursued IC that might work toward that, as suggested.
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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2018, 12:31:05 PM »
Considering that many of those items are gemstones of some sort or other, I don't think knocking down their worth by some great amount would make IC sense. There is a reason that the people who own diamond mines that produce IRL make bank. Now, what might be more fun as a way of handling it, might be tasking gmhs with warring over the productive mines - even Salarr and Kurac make stuff with bling time to time so no reason Kadius would have the only interest, even if they might realistically have the most interest. From there? Maybe the winning party gets x or y room gated off and an NPC with a bag and script that will only pay a dirt amount for item but buys more than five (ala the old NPC in Tuluk at the cotton field gates who you could sell cotton to). Dunno, but at least for gemstones, their IC worth makes sense and if someone wants to make it less available, there are plots that could be pursued IC that might work toward that, as suggested.

Yknow what, I like this idea. It sounds like it'll take work, though, and I doubt staff will be wholly on board. But it would be a good way of simultaneously controlling the flow, offering lucrative work to brave Indies unafraid of gith and anakore, and increasing PLOTS™.
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Synthesis

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2018, 12:33:22 PM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.
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Lizzie

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2018, 02:06:11 PM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.

need moar teefs


Meanwhile, I'll regurgitate my tired old idea from over a decade ago which I still think is a great idea:

Make it so any given merchant will buy "x" amount of whatever he buys, from each PC, within "y" window of time.

Maybe he'll only buy "2 of each." But it's 2 of each from EACH PLAYER PER RL DAY rather than 2 of each, no matter whether it's one person bringing it in or two.

Soon as you offload your max that day, you're shut off til the next day. Or the next two days. Or for a RL 24-hour period. It could be configured however it will work best.

What this also means:

I can bring 2 agafari branches to the wood-buying guy. I'll get 20 sids for the pair. I can't bring in any more than 2 of those branches til tomorrow. But I can bring two cunyati branches, and get 28 sids for those two. And I can also bring in 2 long wooden poles. And 2 short wooden poles. And 2 wheel spokes, or whatever else that guy buys. I can also go down the street to the random-product-buying guy, and probably unload another 2 branches to him as well.

And - so can everyone else. Everyone has the same opportunity to sell the same stuff, for the same duration, and no one gets locked out just because twink-grebber #479 filled the merchant up and now the merchant doesn't have sids anymore, and already has 5 of each.
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MeTekillot

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2018, 02:30:48 PM »
But then everyone is rich and blinged out whi-- actually that sounds like a good idea.
Also, I like my cootch to have a pert pink color and nice smell. Knowing my luck I would bonk someone with AIDs, get rotten box, and die miserable.

The Warshaper

  • Posts: 167
Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2018, 03:34:30 PM »
I love a good discussion!

1. Limiting the amount of gross sales per character would help to prevent 'sid bloat' on characters that either by virtue of when they play, or how much knowledge they have earned by playing the game and knowing what is valuable(which isn't something to punish anyone for).

2. Newplayer Bob would be able to sell, whenever they are able to, up to a certain amount to a merchant which would help retain players. Frustrations over 9000 occurs when new folks go out and play and are not able to sell -anything- they brought back. Most of the things these players will bring back are common hunting or foraging items, which usually means in the current state of shops that nobody wants it. They are forced to either lug it around or dump it.

3. Waste of resources. Thematically, nothing would be wasted in Zalanthas. You can see heaps of common resources laying around in the wild because players aren't able to either craft with them, or sell them(usually because the item limit has been reached) Over hunting with the 'sales per character/per day' in mind would make over hunting less likely because there is no rush to blow your load of x y or z that you've gathered before anyone else does. And eventually players would learn that gathering anymore would be a waste of time/dead weight hauling back and wouldn't pursue with that route.

These are all the reasons I can really think of at this time, please poke holes where you can if you see some oversight in my reasoning.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7957
Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2018, 04:10:02 PM »
But then everyone is rich and blinged out whi-- actually that sounds like a good idea.

Here's the thing - rich and blinged out will depend on what they bring in, what they have access to, etc. And - if the limit is only 2 (that's arbitrary), you can't sell 5 silky braes for 700 sids each, even immediately after a game reset. You can only sell 2. But you are guaranteed that two-item sale. You can also sell 2 gem-encrusted tunics, and 2 diamond-adorned collars, etc. etc. But if you don't make those things, don't steal them, and don't inherit them from the apartment you just rented - then you'll at least get that 28 sids for each of the two cunyati branches you found on the trash heap this morning.

It's not guaranteed to be a lot of sids. But it's guaranteed that you'll get something, every day. Would be great for loggers who travel a lot, and are afraid to bring too much because they don't want to be stuck unable to move from one room to the next without losing 40 stamina points, for four RL days. They know they can bring two logs. Or four logs, as long as two of them are different from the other two.
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Vex

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2018, 06:24:14 PM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.
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ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5311
Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2018, 10:15:56 PM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.

Plenty to do with it.  There is always someone to pay off. Always favors to buy.


I'm against rich independents and for monopolies btw so nix anything that makes it easier for indies to get moar sid.
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Synthesis

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2018, 12:58:37 AM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.

Plenty to do with it.  There is always someone to pay off. Always favors to buy.


I'm against rich independents and for monopolies btw so nix anything that makes it easier for indies to get moar sid.

I think there's a sizeable portion of the playerbase that really doesn't care much for playing politics.  Maybe it's just me, though.
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Armaddict

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2018, 02:06:20 AM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.

There is, they just aren't doing it.  We have all these threads about people ending stories and we need less pvp.  We have action players who are complaining about not having something to do.  We have pro-pk people saying they like to do it but will only do it when necessary.

Can you people start hiring some freakin' guards and investigators and spies and assassins and bounty hunters already?  XD
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Heade

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2018, 03:04:48 AM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.

There is, they just aren't doing it.  We have all these threads about people ending stories and we need less pvp.  We have action players who are complaining about not having something to do.  We have pro-pk people saying they like to do it but will only do it when necessary.

Can you people start hiring some freakin' guards and investigators and spies and assassins and bounty hunters already?  XD

I've done that. But honestly, it doesn't help a lot, many times. People just take your sid and lie to you, guards aren't around very much, and bounty hunters are only really good after the fact. I've hired multiple guards and spies on characters, and had them killed really easily anyhow. But I do still suggest doing it, on characters that have the sids to do so. It makes the RP much more fun, and who knows...maybe one of them will actually do their job one day. :D
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Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2018, 04:17:05 AM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.

Make that minor merchant house which sells booze, whose name everyone should be whispering in their sleep, much less know, and have them open a shop selling KEGS OF BOOZE. Problem solved. Everyone is poor now.
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ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5311
Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 07:33:44 AM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.

Plenty to do with it.  There is always someone to pay off. Always favors to buy.


I'm against rich independents and for monopolies btw so nix anything that makes it easier for indies to get moar sid.

I think there's a sizeable portion of the playerbase that really doesn't care much for playing politics.  Maybe it's just me, though.
Are they against life?

If you're an independent thriving in a city paying off the law there isn't really politics; it's survival. You really have no choice BUT to politic in a way. You have a nice warehouse/apartment with profits in there.  Why wouldn't you pay the law for extra protection? Why not pay off a templar regularly to keep on their good side? Why not grease that merchant? Spend that sid.

The alternative is to keep your base away from anywhere you need to be political in. Like a nice cave. Or tent, heh.
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Synthesis

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2018, 11:07:06 AM »
It seems like the problem is people not having anything useful to do with all that 'sid.

Plenty to do with it.  There is always someone to pay off. Always favors to buy.


I'm against rich independents and for monopolies btw so nix anything that makes it easier for indies to get moar sid.

I think there's a sizeable portion of the playerbase that really doesn't care much for playing politics.  Maybe it's just me, though.
Are they against life?

If you're an independent thriving in a city paying off the law there isn't really politics; it's survival. You really have no choice BUT to politic in a way. You have a nice warehouse/apartment with profits in there.  Why wouldn't you pay the law for extra protection? Why not pay off a templar regularly to keep on their good side? Why not grease that merchant? Spend that sid.

The alternative is to keep your base away from anywhere you need to be political in. Like a nice cave. Or tent, heh.

The more  you start paying one person for protection, the more other people want to try to kill you because of it.  The simplest way to survive is just to let everyone loot your stash at will, and suck -that- up as a cost of doing business.
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Brokkr

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Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2018, 11:27:24 AM »
Back to the OP.  Is the problem really the selling price, or is it the availability?  If we capped certain items so that only a certain amount could get foraged, globally, over a certain amount of time, would that be a better alternative?

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2018, 11:46:05 AM »
if you do that, other people will miss out due to playtime issues and inevitably we circle back to the same issue.
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Synthesis

  • Posts: 9791
Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2018, 11:47:57 AM »
Back to the OP.  Is the problem really the selling price, or is it the availability?  If we capped certain items so that only a certain amount could get foraged, globally, over a certain amount of time, would that be a better alternative?

There are a lot of problems.

1) Some items are vastly more valuable than they ought to be, based on ease of acquisition.
2) However, some of these items fill a critical niche for newbie survival.
3) PK-centricity leads to a lack of crafting PCs to soak up the supply of basic crafting materials.
4) Some crafting subclasses are extremely powerful low-effort 'sid generators.
5) It's extremely difficult to balance the system to be fair to guilds with and without the haggle skill.
6) It's extremely difficult to balance the system to be fair to both newbie PCs and veteran PCs.
7) It's extremely difficult to balance the system to be fair to both newbie players and veteran players.
8) Most of the time, buying raw materials from a shop (without the haggle skill) is not worth it, when you factor in the value of the crafted item x expected success rate, especially at low skill levels.
9) Of course, if you lower the value of the raw materials to make them easier to buy, that also lowers the selling value, making them less likely to be sold at all in the first place.
10) Coordinating PC-to-PC transactions is difficult for a variety of reasons
11) Half of the playerbase wants being an indie to be harder, half of the playerbase doesn't want their cheese moved.
12) There really isn't a lot to spend your 'sid on, mid-to-end-game.
13) If you're a crafting-heavy PC, often the only useful thing you can do during a login period is craft stuff, leading to a glut of unnecessarily-crafted stuff, and the resultant apparent excess of 'sids.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2018, 11:56:31 AM »
I feel like capping global availability would end up frustrating for people trying to make a living as grebbers because of play time issues

If anything we have an inflation problem where the value of coin is diminished by the amount of coin able to be accumulated versus the amount of goods and services to spend it on

True I can pay Amos to guard me or Malik to leave me alone but the coin is purely symbolic if there is nothing else I need it for outside of using bribe money to bribe someone else, who will then take that money and bribe someone else etc etc.

You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Re: Make NPC merchant limits per-player not per-merchant
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2018, 12:36:43 PM »
Ideally, to make coin worthwhile, there should be tangible goods one could covet, thus making coins covetable.

Quality/Rarity of a good or service should scale with cost and the cost should scale with the amount of money in rotation globally.

If it's easy to make 1000 coins then 1000 coins should = $20 for example, as a comparison.

IT should be entirely possible to impulse spend my money away also.

But.. if you wanted a simple band-aid to curtail excessive hunting/gathering and create a money sink.. Stable fees could be a LOT more expensive, I think.

You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."