Author Topic: Estranged Veterans' Perspective  (Read 14110 times)

Veselka

  • Posts: 810
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2018, 02:19:14 AM »
Reading back to the first page, I think one of the points Moe makes would be the most efficacious to tantalize estranged Veterans looking to come back into the fold, or check out the game again.

-Split the Chronology Page (not in the past, what a load of work) but from now forward into region specific chronology.

-Assign Storytellers in their sphere of influence to make submissions for the chronology page for known rumors and events that have taken place in the last RL month. If nothing significant has happened, make a rumor around that, drop hints of red herrings on the horizon, rumblings in the deep, rumors of an ancient curse come to life.

-Post the Chronology on the Main Website.

There has always been a hint of 'Find out IC' when people are wondering what's going on with the game, or asking where the happening spots are. I think especially now, with a smaller and condensed player base, it behooves Staff to quantify and categorize what is going on in the game. Otherwise, from the outside looking in, there really isn't that much going on at all. Beyond that, making a PC to find out there really is nothing going on is an even worse feeling for a player coming back to the game. Having rumors or stories to tap into, to make into your background, to incorporate into your PC, encourages the narrative.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 02:20:49 AM by Veselka »
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Shabago

  • Storyteller
  • Posts: 255
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2018, 10:36:31 AM »
Actively reading this, so you all are aware. By all means, continue to add further feedback. We're not having you all just talk at the wall, here.
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Lizzie

  • Posts: 7896
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2018, 12:26:13 PM »
Not estranged from the game, but I was estranged from Tuluk when it was open. Perhaps this might offer some general insight on the rest of the game, since my concerns weren't necessarily Tuluk-specific.

The "find out IC' culture. I agree, in general terms, that people really should find stuff out IC. But when you're new, it's very difficult to do unless you really stand out and are brought in to plotlines by others. You can't go after something you know nothing about.

In regards to the chronology idea and other "IC info posted outside the game" idea - this could be very helpful for new players, and even for veterans, and people who fall between the two. To have at least some general idea of "stuff that's going on" in a location.

Example - and this would be on the main website, with a link to the list that would expire, with older news items being archived to an available archive page.

>Tavern board news, current week/2 weeks/month, summary.

Clans actively hiring: Kadius (Amos, Talia). Salarr (Joe, Sue). Oash (Second Superior Excellent Lord Heir of Ocotillo Greatness Andy, aide Samahamalama)

Clans known to be actively and currently involved in some kind of really active and known plots, with people dying and other people clamoring to get involved: Salarr, Fale

Mysterious things going on outside Allanak. Believed to be occurring in the general vicinity of "somewhere east of the merchant gate", at unspecified moments. Buyer beware.

Labyrinth: there are some blips on the radar, somewhere in there.

Luir's Outpost: several blips, some coming from visitors. Find Garrison Malik or Kurac agent Salosa for details.

Some breed's been stirring things up in the Pah.

Three characters who have been playing regularly for at least the past month and at most the past six months, came from the Hall of Kings to Morin's, and are still alive. They may or may not still be in or near Morins but that is where they came from, originally.

There are at least 3 mages in the game. (without specifying whether or not they are gemmed - the staff could include either or only one of the two in their count, so no one starts going on ungemmed hunts all of a sudden)

The SLK has at least 2 active members.

-------

You wouldn't mention which clans are "dead," which clans have no active members, which are struggling to exist. You would only highlight what IS going on (not what is NOT going on). That way, people looking to get involved in existing plots, know, at the very least, where to start "finding out IC."
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 12:29:33 PM by Lizzie »
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Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2018, 12:56:40 PM »
I am totally digging the "current events" section idea.

We all post rumors in clan boards and tavern message boards which is still finding out IC with "hints"

Having some way to replicate "things you might have found out" before making a character would be fantastic.

The bulk of the work would be determining how to deploy it with nominal effort on the part of staff.

Clan GDB's could have a forum for posting such "public rumors" and they could be copy pasted.

Storytellers could insert little teasers about ongoing things or notable events.

The above actually sounds like a contest to me almost, how much exciting shit can you get into and end up "in the news"

You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Aruven

  • Posts: 2493
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2018, 05:09:41 PM »
Thanks for starting this, OP.

It's funny using the term veteran. I think just time reflections considered i'd make that list (jumped in circa 2003), but I've never considered myself some guru or old time player. I do reserve that name for other players who get talked about in that way: People that were being called veterans when I first started playing. People and staff who just really knew how to tell a story and set the bar high.

I've taken breaks at various points for a long time. A couple years in-between. The first real break I took for a long time was when Tuluk closed. It just left salt all up in my mouth and nostrils in too many ways with how everything went down. The game pace from storytelling to flashy shows in the moment (imo) and the removal of content from the game has been interesting and at times hard to watch. My gripe isn't really even with magick, or classes. I think about every single plot that got dropped and lost when Tuluk closed. Each faction, house. And not just what that meant for northern players, but anyone else in the world or a clan in the known that had some sort of story arc. It just changed everything, and the implementation might have not been so harsh if it was done well and wasn't sat on. At a minimum, leaving such a huge piece of the game in limbo story wise and code wise and expecting everyone to just be inspired to move on and continue playing in a seemingly smaller world and not fall off was kind of a bold hope.


I could go on and on about tuluk, but the seeming truth to me there is that it just needed some love and attention. The clan documentation for most places was as far behind and out of date as it is in still open clans in the south. The shift from dedicated staffers to having a staff rotation to prevent IC bias of one clan has its PROs and its CONs.

- Tuluk

- Having a vision for what the story of this game is and how content removal and limbo plotlines hurt the entire game world storywise.

- I like the current events concept as I've seen it played around with so far here, so long as it doesn't out plot stuff obviously.

Beyond OOC information, hell, IC information is needed. It's been mentioned more than once things are becoming so blurry that sometimes it's hard to get details about how your character grew up and what they know. I mean, I asked a few different staff about what a commoner would know IC about the dragon. This has changed SO massively with the change in players and staff it is worth using as an example. Not only did staff feedback differ from : "No, you're PC would know nothing", to "Depends on where your PC is from", but for me that's a huge shift regardless, because if you played the game 10 years ago, it was acceptable to play out being aware of the Dragon's story to some extent and knowing the fear behind it. So the players and staff (on way more topics than just this one) kind of have some work to do on deciding where exactly the game world stands. Maybe the staff are really clear on this and see it all going according to plan, but chatter I see constantly and now this thread of longtime players posting makes me think I'm not in the crazy box by myself feeling like the flavor got salty and stale.







 

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7896
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2018, 05:11:38 PM »
Another idea to help, especially with regards to people whose play times often don't connect with others:

Start doing average peak time measurements.

The data being measured: what time was it when the highest player count was logged in yesterday? If not an exact time, at least a window showing the time frame during which the highest player count, +/- 2, was logged in.

Example report:

Sunday 10/7: Average 63 players between 8:30-10:35 Server
Monday 10/8: Average 49 players between 8:18-9:57 Server
Tuesday 10/9: Average 48 players between 8:52-10:35 Server
Wednesday 10/10: Average 39 players between 9:03-9:16 Server*
Thursday 10/11: Average 51 players between 9:17-11:25 Server**
Friday 10/12: Average 53 players between 8:40-10:10 Server
Saturday 10/13: Average 57 players between 9:14-10:55 Server

Key:
* Game crash on normally slow night. Average shifted to 37 after that, til 11:45.
* Normally lower log in night but there was a multi-clan RPT which boosted the numbers. Compare with last week, 41 between 8:50-9:35

Translation: What this means, is that prior to the starting times, there were fewer people logged in on average in any given hourly segment. After those times, the numbers also dropped. During the time frame listed, there were rarely 2 fewer or more than the average number listed.
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Aruven

  • Posts: 2493
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2018, 06:10:08 PM »
I wanted to add community.

Having Fnord and whomever help him throw together a google catalogue of playerphotos, people hosting APMs and meeting up at Dragoncons, Discord (i'll throw it in) , player submission logs, writing, stories, song, culture.
All that stuff is huge. A big part of what I've noticed is that when you create a story with a bunch of people, it really hurts to lose even one of them. You just lose a little bit more of that ability to give the same life to scenes, ideas, flavor. I've been pretty lazy about it, but i'm all about supporting that stuff whenever there is a chance too and I think it's good for retaining players in the long time. Low key shout out to the organizers of those things over the years, especially the seekrit santa coordination.

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1130
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2018, 12:06:55 AM »
-Split the Chronology Page (not in the past, what a load of work) but from now forward into region specific chronology.
I like this idea and was thinking something similar.  Split it up, show the current "season" of events (and let people view the past seasons with some kind of pagination), and maybe use it as a tool storytellers could use to plan story arcs, like you would seasons of a show.
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Strongheart

  • Posts: 265
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2018, 10:00:47 PM »
What do you peeps think about staff rotations being every six to nine months rather than the current three?

Heade

  • Posts: 703
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2018, 11:18:36 PM »
What do you peeps think about staff rotations being every six to nine months rather than the current three?

I'd need to know more about what the policy is on rotations to give an answer to that. Currently, I don't know.
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mansa

  • Posts: 9594
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2018, 12:20:44 AM »
I stopped playing around mid-2010 when my guild leader assassin character (Mal, the man with marilla-coloured hair) died.  I was attempting build stuff in a certain area in the game.  This was before the player created clan stuff got implemented. (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51316.0.html)

I attempted to get room descriptions changed.  Typo's fixed.   The guild backdoor was just a tarp and I got a replacement door.  I wanted it installed and waited.  I saw that some areas were saved with items in the room, so I could always go there and get a free item.  I saw some NPCs that were saved without weapons on them, and people used to kill them for their gear.

I basically saw the world -stop- and be paused, while "armageddon 2.0" was hanging in the background being "worked on", even though Sanvean had retired and there was zero notification about what was going to happen.  This is a MUD.  You can create a brand new world and all you need to do is write descriptions.  This model is designed for flexibility and ease of change.  There are -no- -graphics-.  I didn't want to play in a static world.  So I stopped.


I would peek in sometimes, and see delightful posts like this:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49803.0.html

Nessalin created this post:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.0.html
which I subscribed to immediately.  I would watch the game world slowly change and become something different than what I had been playing for the past 15 years.  This thread kept me coming back.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47703.0.html was the introduction of player moderators, which means the players have more say and control in the community

Guilds started to change!
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.0.html

More changes from a brainstorming thread:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49141.0.html

Then some shit happened:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50667.0.html


It was at this time that Path reached out to me on Facebook and said - "play Armageddon please?"

In real life, I moved cities, got promoted, became 'corporate' and was doing a 9-5 job in an office.  I had free time.  I thought that the written world has changed enough so that when I re-entered it, I would be lost again in the mystery.


And some of it was changed.  And some of it was exactly the same.





I'd like to say that my observance of the ArmageddonMUD story is one of a giant amoeba, that slowly moves from piece of food to piece of food, being pulled in all directions until someone finds a nugget and the game shifts slightly.  I feel like there is no director or game master, that there is a promise that you can accomplish anythingsomethings as long as you can convince someone to go along with you as long as it doesn't take a lot of time investment.

That if you don't have an idea, you're going to just be shifted along slowly until someone has some piece of gold and we all shuffle over to that.

I feel that there isn't a 2 year plan for ArmageddonMUD, or a 5 year plan.  It's all become -players make the ideas- and -staff gets to play along with the players-.  However, the players can't make the game change, the staff makes the game change.  Nobody knows who the boss of the overarching storyline.   And staff are afraid to step on toes, to interfere with characters, to have someone say, 'you did something fun with group x, but i'm in group y so that's favoritism'.

What I want
I want to build empires and destroy empires, to have enemies and lovers and to be killed and to start all over again with a new characters.   I want to explore the unknown and develop trade routes and make new roads and clash with rat people and bird persons.  I want single player quests to do when nobody is around and multi player quests when everybody is around.  I want to be taken for a ride and I want to make a difference, and I want my differences to be destroyed by someone else and forgotten in the wastes.
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


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wizturbo

  • Posts: 2487
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2018, 03:35:16 AM »
I suppose I feel that with all the progress that's been made on Armageddon over the last few years, it's been 10 steps forward and 20 steps backwards. 

So much has been added to the game over the last 5 years...  But so much more has been taken away.   Maybe it's nostalgia talking, and those things I loved that are now gone weren't as great as I remembered them to be...  I cannot say with certainty.  All I know is I'm not interested in playing very much.  I hope that changes in the future.



« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 03:56:56 AM by wizturbo »

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5293
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2018, 07:27:04 AM »
What do you peeps think about staff rotations being every six to nine months rather than the current three?

I'd need to know more about what the policy is on rotations to give an answer to that. Currently, I don't know.
For what purpose?

Do they rotate every so often? Seems certain staff have been presiding over the same clans for months/years until recently.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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boog

  • Posts: 10908
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2018, 09:31:22 AM »
What do you peeps think about staff rotations being every six to nine months rather than the current three?

I'd need to know more about what the policy is on rotations to give an answer to that. Currently, I don't know.
For what purpose?

Do they rotate every so often? Seems certain staff have been presiding over the same clans for months/years until recently.

Yeah. Every three months has never been the case.

We need different bodies and minds in different clans to keep perspectives and stories fresh.
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Olafson

  • Posts: 795
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2018, 10:24:22 AM »
Thought I would give my perspective on things.

Many of you probably won't recognize me since I don't post much on the GDB unless I was part of a clan, and I am not on Discord, nor will I ever be. 

I am nearly 50 years old, and have been playing for 25 years.

I leave this game for a while after every bitter death (usually stupid) and come back usually every summer or right before the summer since as a teacher it is part of my relaxation.

Obviously I believe in this game and those who have put so much time into it.

Some comments on some things:

Players On Line
The number of people who are playing is definitely a worry, but as we are hearing on this thread, many people come and go due to real life.  But if you build it, they will come.  This will fix itself (cross-fingers) and I don't think it is about PK.

Karma
I have had top karma since it was brought in.  I could choose sorc and psionicist whenever I want.  I hate that these are now taken away.  My favorite thing was to choose a sorc and have it lie dormant on my character.  Slowly letting it manifest.  Sometimes this worked, sometimes I never even got to play it. 

This line particularly pissed me off:
Quote
5) If you are approved for a sorcerer or psionicist character, you will be expected to use the skills that make the role a limited one.
Totally against how I like to play these characters so I basically disappeared for a year. 

The current system of karma regeneration is a real turn off too.  Why do I have to wait 4 months to get back all of my karma?  Why am I being punished?  Why are we so against having so many high karma'd characters?  Usually I jump back and forth, but lots of times I play this game for the challenge of the type of character.

That being said, non-karma'd characters are a lot of fun to play as well but really, four months?  I can't guarantee I'll be alive in four months.  I'm almost 50!!!  I kid, I'm in perfectish health.

GMH Changes
I actually like these for the most part.  I was playing a character in the Garrison when the changes happened and it was a very interesting dynamic as those of us in Kurac were joined by Salarr and Kadius.  Was a lot of politics.  It has a lot of potential for clashes and I am not sure what is happening currently with that, but the potential is there.  Great idea.  It would be nice if each house could still retain their own PC guards or hunters, maybe a very small limit. 

Class Changes
I like these changes, though I admit I am currently playing my very first character with these changes and I am very happy.  I don't find there to be a combat grind at all and with my new character I am able to experience the world a lot easier and faster than I had before.  Very enjoyable. 

Magick
I already mentioned above about Sorcs being special app and how I hate it.  I don't like how Sorcs changed over the last few years as well.  Well, I shouldn't say that.  I liked how there is a focus, but I do believe that after they reach the maximum of that focus (which I had a few years ago) then they should be able to research and get another focus.  Maybe by finding another sorceror of a different focus and learning, or killing them and absorbing their ability (aka Heroes).  Perhaps this does happen, I don't know.  But would be nice.

Magick as a subguild is fine and helps with the interest in these characters so they aren't just sitting around practicing spells.  The loss of Drov/Nilazi/Elkros is fine, though of the group I only played Nilazi much, and it was a lot of fun being Nilazi.  I think of the three, Nilazi still has a definite place.  By the way, if Drov and Elkros don't exist, can we get rid of them from the Naki Quarter?  Or is it that they do exist but just no longer as player options?

Lack of Information
This does not bother me.  Keeps up the intrigue.  I would hate to know that there are five current magick users.  People would be trying to guess who they were.  Knowing already the skill tree of the new guilds is something I have to adjust to.  Takes away a lot of the thrill when a skill branches.  But, people like knowing, so that is fine.  Should hopefully bring in more people.

Tuluk
The loss of Tuluk does suck, especially the part of closing it up.  I've played through the rebellion and occupation of Tuluk.  I've played many characters, both noble and templar, in the old Tuluk.  The culture was so different from Nak, it did offer an alternative.  And I would switch from north to south after each character death so I wouldn't have any past dealings.  Was interesting.  I did always enjoy Nak more, but one of my points here is that I like having space so that I can jump from one character to another and not have previous knowledge.  Start fresh.  I think we lose that with Tuluk gone and there isn't as much to keep characters in the north.

That being said I get the concept of consolidating the player base.  The problem is that we need conflict and the north vs south was fantastic.  It still exists a bit today, but...

Plotlines
Petty plotlines have always kept the wheels turning in Arm.  PKing for a reason, whatever it is, let it happen.  Conflict, conflict, conflict.  If you side with a faction, be ready to suffer the consequences. 

I was in Kurac at the time of the Copper Wars so I didn't experience the war like others did, but it definitely had the player base hopping.  And the worry we had every time a Naki group got close to Luir's was a lot of fun as well.  Diplomacy was the name of the game.  Same thing when I was a gypsy before the volcano switcheroo.  Very tense.

I've missed out on many plots over 25 years and been involved with a lot of others.

I do think things are in the works and we're going to see something soon.  I'd like to believe that anyways.

Summary
I don't interact with the imms that much, I hate doing reports.  I never used think and feel or bio enough so I'm not sure if they always know what I'm doing or am up to.  But everything I have ever gotten from them is that they are trying to be helpful.  The work they are putting in on the code is fantastic.

We're not always going to agree with decisions, but this game is so good, please don't give up on it

I am expecting to play this game for another 25 years.

Olafson
What do you mean...Garrison?

crymerci

  • Posts: 1565
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2018, 11:46:46 AM »
Players Online/Peak Times/Pbase concentration

The population is way down from what I remember, and it shows. Also, for all the talk about the aging playerbase, peak times seem to have shifted later.

The number of people logged into the Discord server seems to be 3-4x the number logged into the game, and from this thread there seem to be lots of people who could be playing but aren't. So the community is large enough, but people aren't playing.

Add in the closure of Tuluk and you are looking at either playing a Nakki or spending a lot of time alone. Add in the usual 1/3 of clans who don't have a strong, active leader. And you end up with very few (clanned) options if you want to have people to interact with. If you're also trying to avoid interacting with the people your last character knew, you've got some serious acrobatics to perform.

Forum Search

For better or worse, most/best/new information seems to be located on the GDB rather than in the web docs. Attempts to search the forums seem to result in the whole GDB freezing for everyone. Even if a search attempt goes through, it's hard to find the information you need and be confident that it is current, complete, and accurate.
I think we might need to change World Discussion to Armchair Zalanthan Anthropology.

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6766
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2018, 12:10:41 PM »
*Changes to the magick system.  I actually really like the subguilds.  I kinda wish there was still something like a main-guild mage, though.  Like a magick specialist who trades mundane skills for more spell variety (even if just two subguild's worth of spells).  I still really really dislike the loss of Elkrans, Drovians, and Nilazi.  I felt that the appeasement of "their spells will be recycled into other subguilds" was borderline insulting and entirely missed the point.

This is still my #1 reason for not playing. Also, I dislike what the change did to the ingame culture of how people perceive and act around magick. It encouraged min-maxing to get JUST the right skill combinations and skill grind opportunities, solo hunting (to grind those combat skillz because the Byn won't take Gemmed, yo), more or less depopulated the Elementalist quarter (because it now makes soooo much more sense to play ungemmed), less fear of magick because people are OOCly aware of how new-ish Gemmed are now weaker than ever and have trouble finding ways to train their mundane skills because almost no clan will hire them, etc etc.

I could make a bit of time to play. I don't because I feel it would be pointless. Armageddon MUD never has been, and never will be a casual friendly game, especially not during offpeak. I don't like the mundane combat system and never could pull off outdoorsy types because I have literally no sense of direction (in real life AND ingame). If I logged in for a couple hours here and there, I'd never form the social connections required to see and experience interesting stuff(tm). I've grown so tired of solo RPing and idling in bars.

Btw, full guild elementalists were the perfect role to play casually>:(

I suppose I feel that with all the progress that's been made on Armageddon over the last few years, it's been 10 steps forward and 20 steps backwards. 

So much has been added to the game over the last 5 years...  But so much more has been taken away.   Maybe it's nostalgia talking, and those things I loved that are now gone weren't as great as I remembered them to be...  I cannot say with certainty.  All I know is I'm not interested in playing very much.  I hope that changes in the future.

Also this. Sooo many things that I enjoyed were taken away and I don't feel there was much added at all. At least not that I've seen, or that interested me.

Also, the karma changes. I've been playing this game on and off for something like 15 years. I got my last karma point in like, 2011 (?) from Morgenes, who commented that I should have had that much long ago. I had enough to be able to spec app psionicists, and I think I played an AMAZING psi not that long ago. Now I have 2 karma... as much as people who've been playing for a small handful of years. I don't think I can even spec app psionicists anymore.  :-\

« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 12:21:31 PM by Akaramu »

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 571
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2018, 12:32:45 PM »
I've seen an alarming number of people suggest that karma regeneration is affecting player numbers. I actually am a big fan of karma regeneration and I think we do need something like that to limit the number of mages running around, especially now that you can basically just become a super buffed warrior (or heavy combat, whatever) by picking a mage subclass. Even though I'm a shameless (okay a little bit shameful) serial mage player, we don't want the default to be to pick a magick subclass.

And maybe a few people are put off by not being able to play a bunch of mages in a row, and I understand that because I have a thousand mage concepts buzzing around in my head. But I think the main problem is extended subclasses. People want to be able to keep up with the Joneses, and they feel they're hamstringing their characters if they commit to a regular subguild. And we can say all day that this is an unhealthy attitude to have, and it's wrong, and they "shouldn't" feel that way and they "should" be happy with regular subclasses because it's not all about coded skills. But the truth is that people feel this way anyway, and they always will, because it's human nature. If player numbers are being hurt because people are waiting for karma to regen so they can play subclass slipknife instead of subclass thief, then maybe it's something that needs to be looked at. Maybe we just need to have one kind of subclass, whether that one kind ends up being closer to the higher cap of extended subs, or the lower cap of regular subs. I('d tend towards the lower end, myself, especially since the main guilds have such high caps in everything these days.)

Now, I'm not saying just get rid of karma regen, because then you just have an unfair situation where veterans never have to touch a regular subclass again, while new players are resigned to being less competitive no matter how long their characters live. And I don't think that's a good solution either.

In theory I like the idea of karma regen encouraging a mix of extended and regular subclasses, so that you're never sure just how good someone is at a given skill, but in practice it seems to be encouraging people to wait out the timer instead. I do think it's something that needs to be looked at.

Akaramu

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Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2018, 12:40:38 PM »
I've seen an alarming number of people suggest that karma regeneration is affecting player numbers. I actually am a big fan of karma regeneration and I think we do need something like that to limit the number of mages running around, especially now that you can basically just become a super buffed warrior (or heavy combat, whatever) by picking a mage subclass. Even though I'm a shameless (okay a little bit shameful) serial mage player, we don't want the default to be to pick a magick subclass.

I'm personally okay with karma regeneration. I'm absolutely not okay with now having 2 karma, no karma gained since 2011 (especially considering that one psi I played), and not being able to even spec app psis or sorcs anymore. Honestly, I think I'm one of the most trustworthy players staff could wish for. I've never, not once in 15ish years, exploited game code, abused OOC knowledge or PKed anyone for questionable reasons. I communicate with honesty and always send in my reports. The worst thing I ever did was to forage salt without emoting for like 15 minutes. A staffer once told me that I use thinks / feels better and more often than almost any other player. I always solo RP when alone, and have at times been rewarded with echoes and animations, but no new karma points. I've always played for the roleplay, not for the skillz. I mudsex like once every 2 years.  :P

Yet I can't play psionicists anymore.  >:(

Dar

  • Posts: 1394
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2018, 01:01:31 PM »
Are you certain you cant, Akaramu? I mean right now. Everyone, even karma 3 need to spec app for sorcs/psis.  I thought I read somewhere that karma 2 can spec app psies/sorcs. 

Only thing is there is a limit on how many sorcs/psies can be in game at the same time.

mansa

  • Posts: 9594
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2018, 01:01:57 PM »
I've seen an alarming number of people suggest that karma regeneration is affecting player numbers. I actually am a big fan of karma regeneration and I think we do need something like that to limit the number of mages running around, especially now that you can basically just become a super buffed warrior (or heavy combat, whatever) by picking a mage subclass. Even though I'm a shameless (okay a little bit shameful) serial mage player, we don't want the default to be to pick a magick subclass.

I'm personally okay with karma regeneration. I'm absolutely not okay with now having 2 karma, no karma gained since 2011 (especially considering that one psi I played), and not being able to even spec app psis or sorcs anymore. Honestly, I think I'm one of the most trustworthy players staff could wish for. I've never, not once in 15ish years, exploited game code, abused OOC knowledge or PKed anyone for questionable reasons. I communicate with honesty and always send in my reports. The worst thing I ever did was to forage salt without emoting for like 15 minutes. A staffer once told me that I use thinks / feels better and more often than almost any other player. I always solo RP when alone, and have at times been rewarded with echoes and animations, but no new karma points. I've always played for the roleplay, not for the skillz. I mudsex like once every 2 years.  :P

Yet I can't play psionicists anymore.  >:(

Side note - Have you looked into the various ways to verify your expected karma level?
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Review
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 571
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2018, 01:02:22 PM »
Are you certain you cant, Akaramu? I mean right now. Everyone, even karma 3 need to spec app for sorcs/psis.  I thought I read somewhere that karma 2 can spec app psies/sorcs. 

Only thing is there is a limit on how many sorcs/psies can be in game at the same time.

They used to be able to but they can't anymore, sadly. 5-karma players were by far the most shafted by the new system.

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6766
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2018, 01:16:09 PM »
Side note - Have you looked into the various ways to verify your expected karma level?
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Review

Not yet, but if enough other things change and I am motivated to play again, I might.  :)

...then again, I'm pretty sure I have some bad account notes from the two times I butted heads with staff because I felt misunderstood and treated EXTREMELY unfairly. Both times other staff admitted I was right to complain much later, but I have no faith about THAT being in my account notes. The original comments are most likely still there.

But that's old stuff and sorta off topic (right now my absence has nothing to do with staff), so meh.

They used to be able to but they can't anymore, sadly. 5-karma players were by far the most shafted by the new system.

Yup. And I have a feeling there were a lot of 5 karma players since it used to be sort of a soft cap for most.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 01:18:33 PM by Akaramu »

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 648
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2018, 01:17:17 PM »
My perspective.  Iím not going to address veterans returning directly, but rather in a broad way some of the things they have touched on.

The game is dynamic.  While change may not happen at the pace everyone would prefer, change happens and is constant.  It is myopic to look at this statement and think it applies only, or even most importantly, to the game world itself.  It applies to the game world, the supporting structures, the staff and the players.

The Gameworld

Dynamism is not only the addition of content, code and features. It also implies the loss of these things as well.  And in the context of Armageddon, the loss or closing off previously playable options is important to avoid bloat. Part of this is obvious. You canít reconcile Kurac control of Luirs with the existence of the Garrison. Some things only grow on the graves of what came before. It can be harder to be comfortable with things like Tor not being playable, or Elkros/Nilazi/Drov elementalists existing but not being playable. Sometimes we need the field to lay fallow, and in the context of Armageddon that can be measured in years and even decades. Sometimes we punt the decision on what to do down the road. And sometimes we find that the concept might be good in theory, but doesnít play out in practice in a way that fits within the overall game world in a positive way.

The Supporting Structures

These perhaps change the slowest of all.  The website.  The GDB.  The request tool. Facebook.  Twitter. Discord. Various marketing campaigns. It is a very different landscape of supporting structures from when Olafson started playing, but the internet itself is a very different landscape. The place of our game in that landscape has also changed dramatically in that timeframe. While we can try to implement new things like Discord as they appear and add value, the continued evolution in the gaming space seems to push MUDs in general into an increasingly niche space.

The Staff

Staff change. Support players receive can vary by Storyteller, but can also vary by what is going on in a Storytellerís life. When we say we are volunteers a large piece of what we are saying is that we arenít here 9-5 most days a week focused on this hobby. We are here when we can be, but our involvement with the game can be as varied and dynamic as the other parts of our lives.

While we endeavor to maintain a consistent front for the benefit of the players, Staff views change with the makeup of the individuals who are staffing. My style, views and priorities are not the same as Nergal, Adhira or Nyr. In some respects muting the dynamism of these things at the Staff level is important in order to maintain consistency. I donít get to change everything I want to simply because I would do it differently, and that is a good thing.

The Players

This is hands down the most dynamic part of the game. The players themselves change, changing the makeup of levels of roleplay, leadership, game knowledge, plot generation, twinking and any number of other factors exhibited by the player base as a whole. So not only is the player generated content constantly changing, the way in which they approach the game world, staff generated content and player generated content is constantly changing. This inevitably lends itself to cycles, not only of activity but of things like roleplay quality, engagement in player and staff plots, and all sort of other things.

Much like the game world, parts of the player base come and go. In a dynamic game where change is a constant, some cannot reconcile the current game world to another version of it, typically some golden age in the past, or some theoretical future that would happen if they got to make all the changes they want. Some parts of the player base need to lie fallow, recharging until they return, sometimes years or even decades later.  And like staff, players involvement with the game is as varied and dynamic as the other parts of their lives.

And this is a good thing. The richness of interaction in Armageddon is dependent on a dynamic player base. Veterans are an important piece of that dynamic, and it is appreciated when they choose to return and become involved in the game once more after a period of absence.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 02:25:42 PM by Brokkr »

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5293
Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2018, 02:17:26 PM »
The richness of interaction in Armageddon is dependent on a dynamic player base. Veterans are an important piece of that dynamic, and it is appreciated when they choose to return and become involved in the game once more after a period of absence.

Thanks for that post, Brokkr, and for sharing your perspective.

I wish I could say that the above statement appears true to word as staff's stand and I hope that the amount of shared issues among the responding veterans brings forth the change of those and other commonalities. 

When I came back last September, as I do every time I get back, I reached out to other veteran players I know and badgered the fuck out of them to come back. Feel free to out yourselves, vets I badgered, if you wish. 



To quote a private conversation I recently had:

Quote
Me: You've been silent.  You playing?
Them: No, decided I'm not going to
too different of a game
Me: Fair enough. It's a fair assessment.

Even now that I'm not playing I'm badgering vets to come back because like Olafson.


We're not always going to agree with decisions, but this game is so good, please don't give up on it

I am expecting to play this game for another 25 years.

Olafson

I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote
In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.