Author Topic: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It  (Read 19968 times)

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #250 on: October 10, 2018, 10:26:18 PM »
Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Aides are something of a trap. You think you're going to get to work behind the scenes to organize player plots, broker deals and generally be the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice you're a low-skilled character with few opportunities to train. There's an exceptionally good chance that anyone will kill you including your own noble.

Don't even get me started on all the ways things can go wrong.

That's because you have to EARN the mover and shaker status.  Most don't live long enough to get to that point.

It IS possible.  Skill, money, luck and lots but lots of favor from LOTS of factions.

The atrium should be teaching this but this is a thread about PK, not the (im)proper use and training of noble aides.

Hiring guards doesn't activate the crimcode.

It's treason to hurt a noble.

Tavern where nobles and templars hang out as well as their aides?  0 soldiers
Gaj where the riff raff goes?  2 - 3 soldiers.

This makes no coded or IG sense.  We're not talking about guards ATM.  There is also an extremely limited playerbase.  We are talking about unrealistic code that would allow someone to attack someone in the Aboretum in plain sight without activating the crim code.

That makes no logical sense.

1) Hiring guards gives the victim a fighting chance. It -does- activate the crim for guards to go the attacker.
2) No. It's not. Treason  is against the city state.  Attempting to overthrow the government. It's treason to hurt a Templar, maybe, but not regular noble.
3) The Gaj is where the criminals are, that's where the law should be.  Take a walk around the NOBLE quarter... count the soldiers.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.  [jeopardy theme] okay good.  Now..  but ShaL, you say, they're a GATED AND GUARDED quarter we should have more soldiers near the (ONE) uber rich place(s?!?) to insure their safety!!! and I gently remind that THE noble establishment is guarded by a bouncer that keeps the riff raff and is literally down the block from HIS temples where soldiers would come bursting in. That median commoner bar nobles go to for plebeians entertainment has guards walking through and at least one in the antechamber.  Usually two.

Again... this could ALL be dealt with in character.  This isn't an ooc problem.  It's an ic one.

Good pkillers that get away with it are an in character problem to deal with.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 10:39:10 PM by ShaLeah »
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote
In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Aruven

  • Posts: 2522
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #251 on: October 11, 2018, 01:09:23 AM »
Tapas, I played an aide role where it was everything you listed.


Shal, I say, the law of Allanak is pretty clear on this matter.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #252 on: October 11, 2018, 05:17:04 AM »
Shal, I say, the law of Allanak is pretty clear on this matter.
Yep. Murder is against the law.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote
In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7975
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #253 on: October 11, 2018, 06:30:44 AM »
Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Aides are something of a trap. You think you're going to get to work behind the scenes to organize player plots, broker deals and generally be the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice you're a low-skilled character with few opportunities to train. There's an exceptionally good chance that anyone will kill you including your own noble.

Don't even get me started on all the ways things can go wrong.

Aides who are "used properly" by their employers DO work behind the scenes, organize plots (character, not player), broker deals, and are generally the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice, you are a socio-political creature, who has little need for personal combat skills save perhaps the very basic self-defense skills. If you're GOOD at what you do, you won't be a target until much, much later in your career. There's an exceptionally good chance that someone will kill you, no matter who you are, including your own boss, in any clan, in any unofficial group, or as an independent, anywhere in the game.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 12034
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #254 on: October 11, 2018, 11:43:48 AM »
Shal, I say, the law of Allanak is pretty clear on this matter.
Yep. Murder is against the law.

ShaLeah, I suggest reading the "Laws of Allanak" rumor board post.

"Striking one of noble blood" is treason for a commoner.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 806
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #255 on: October 11, 2018, 11:44:44 AM »
-It is Treason to kill a noble peer.
-It is a common crime, punishable by death, to strike a noble (as a commoner).

read board 4

Why the difference? A noble can't kill one of their peers, it is still against the law for them to do that. Although they can kill someone significantly lower in rank. And obviously against the law to kill a noble that is higher rank than you, or for a commoner to kill a noble.

A noble could strike another noble.

Crimes that are Treason are against the law for Nobles. Thanks PCs that tossed out Treason for every petty crime for the clarification.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 AM by Brokkr »

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 12034
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #256 on: October 11, 2018, 12:19:42 PM »
I stand corrected. It is indeed listed under "common crimes" and specifically noted as punished with death.

But it's not just "against the law", as per ShaLeah's response, which seems to suggest a lesser severity of the crime.

So, if I'm reading this right, it is treason for a commoner to KILL a noble, but it's a "common crime" to simply strike them. But you get executed anyway!

Or is it still a common crime, because they're commoners, and only nobles can commit Treason, and Templars commit High Treason?

Obviously all of the listed High/Treason crimes would result in execution for a commoner, but is the subtle implication that commoners can't commit treason? They're not worthy enough to even register as having committed such an offense? Because if so that would be pretty cool.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 12:34:49 PM by Delirium »
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 806
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #257 on: October 11, 2018, 12:46:38 PM »
I mean, all those Treason and High Treason things are still against the law for a Commoner.

But for a Noble or Templar to do them, they are essentially working, actively, against the city or Highlord.  That sort of betrayal is what makes something treasonous.

Who cares about the vermin?*  It isn't like they are given anything to betray!

*Except the vermin that work for the Highlord in the AoD. I wouldn't suggest attacking them, even as a noble. It might be considered an attack on the City, rather on the vermin themselves.

Inky

  • Posts: 218
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #258 on: October 11, 2018, 01:00:48 PM »
Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Aides are something of a trap. You think you're going to get to work behind the scenes to organize player plots, broker deals and generally be the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice you're a low-skilled character with few opportunities to train. There's an exceptionally good chance that anyone will kill you including your own noble.

Don't even get me started on all the ways things can go wrong.

Aides who are "used properly" by their employers DO work behind the scenes, organize plots (character, not player), broker deals, and are generally the fancy aba behind the power.

The good nobles I've known seem to be pretty content with sitting on the COUCH and doing all the deal making on their own with The Way.

Quote
In practice, you are a socio-political creature, who has little need for personal combat skills save perhaps the very basic self-defense skills. If you're GOOD at what you do, you won't be a target until much, much later in your career. There's an exceptionally good chance that someone will kill you, no matter who you are, including your own boss, in any clan, in any unofficial group, or as an independent, anywhere in the game.

In practice none of these things matter if you arn't permitted the basic AUTONOMY to do any of it on your own. In practice my characters just ended up getting into dumb shit like not-serving-tea-the-Atrium-way or wearing a kadian sold garmet that was 'northie because it featured lace' or speaking aloud instead of using The Way for 90% of my communication. Or using the wrong wording when speaking to nobility. And a lot of dumb garbage.

And if my character is told that they're just a Way relay station or a delivery person, then I'm just going to retire and join the BYN on my next character.

It's got nothing to do with how GOOD you are and is probably more dependent on having good players around you than any role in the game. And further, no. I don't think there's a higher natural risk to just getting merc'd anywhere in this game than as an aide.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 01:09:21 PM by Inky »

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 12034
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #259 on: October 11, 2018, 03:05:35 PM »
Sounds like playing an aide and dealing with the intricacies of social and political RP isn't for you. That's cool. I, too, prefer chopping things up with bone swords. I've had a grand total of one PC in the Atrium and I stored that PC, because it was not my cup of tea.

It's also possible you weren't trusted with the important stuff.  Maybe they were testing you and you failed.

That said, if a leader (any leader, really) isn't delegating to their employees, they're missing out on the best part of being a leader.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

WarriorPoet

  • Posts: 4650
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #260 on: October 11, 2018, 03:19:32 PM »
I prefer getting pk'd over getting my mount ticket stolen. Every time. It hurts. It tastes like shit and ashes. But I am always going to app a new character immediately because I love it.

Bring the violence.
We were somewhere near the Shield Wall, on the edge of the Red Desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #261 on: October 11, 2018, 03:20:56 PM »
Thanks for the redirect to topic WP!
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote
In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Lutagar

  • Posts: 283
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #262 on: October 11, 2018, 04:42:45 PM »
"this role is bad for these reasons"
"you're just bad at the role"

reminds me of my school days when not liking the popular game inherently meant you were just bad at it

also:

the code needs to stop rewarding the first person that instigates to violence, while backstab and archery are a thing knee jerk murders aren't only to be expected but are entirely rational

Namino

  • Posts: 443
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #263 on: October 11, 2018, 05:05:45 PM »
the code needs to stop rewarding the first person that instigates to violence, while backstab and archery are a thing knee jerk murders aren't only to be expected but are entirely rational

I would argue the code punishes quite heavily the person who instigates violence depending on how the violence is instigated. This all really comes down to the punishing delay mechanics that the combat code of armageddon is founded on. Opening with a raw kick or kill puts you in such a long delay that you're going to be sitting there for ages and your quarry is going to either run or have ample time to pull a heramide knife on you. The code does reward the instigator, however, if they open with an instant win button -- heramide being one of those. Basically the code right now drives players with a desire to 'win' confrontations to find the instant win button dejure rather than anything that could possibly lead to a protracted fight.

The reason people avoid protracted fight is because either:

 A) your target wants to run away and the second you're in delay they either need to be dead or almost dead already or afflicted with a status that prevents them running or they're going to get away because you're frozen in time, helpless, because spam flee is uncounterable unless they're prone or dead by your AoO on the way out.

B) your target wants to fight and by the time you're suffering from combat delay they also need to be either dead or badly crippled, because you being in delay and the other guy not allows him to act unfettered. In that scenario, given the popularity of OHKOs in Armageddon, if you didn't open with a OHKO of your own, guess who's about to get a face full of heramide knives or arrows from the next room after a flee-shoot fest?

The combat code doesn't reward instigators. It rewards strategies that decide the battle instantaneously because the delay mechanics makes everything impossible to manage after that point. The 'meta' of armageddon really comes down to delay managing your opponent and yourself. If you put yourself into delay you better freaking do it in a way that stops the other guy. People who are willing to instigate (and thereby put themselves into delay) generally feel like their OKHO dejure is going to work, which might lend to the illusion as the offensive party winning often. But striking the first blow if it doesn't instantly kill your opponent simply leaves you in delay and at the mercy of a return instant-win stroke.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 05:07:30 PM by Namino »

Lutagar

  • Posts: 283
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #264 on: October 11, 2018, 05:29:22 PM »
snip

it's been RL years since i've had someone try to instigate a PK on me without a OHK

and it's almost always because:

a) they're a dumb newbie
b) they're extraordinarily dangerous maxed twink gods that will reel lock you forever

So yeah, you're not wrong, but the player base is so painfully aware of the fact that (successful) PKs without a OHK opening or a locked apartment are almost unheard of.

Narf

  • Posts: 849
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #265 on: October 11, 2018, 05:36:45 PM »
snip

it's been RL years since i've had someone try to instigate a PK on me without a OHK

and it's almost always because:

a) they're a dumb newbie
b) they're extraordinarily dangerous maxed twink gods that will reel lock you forever

So yeah, you're not wrong, but the player base is so painfully aware of the fact that (successful) PKs without a OHK opening or a locked apartment are almost unheard of.

I got mugged once a few months back without a OHK. I'm 98% sure the mugger just wanted to spar.

Namino

  • Posts: 443
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #266 on: October 11, 2018, 05:38:09 PM »
snip

it's been RL years since i've had someone try to instigate a PK on me without a OHK

and it's almost always because:

a) they're a dumb newbie
b) they're extraordinarily dangerous maxed twink gods that will reel lock you forever

So yeah, you're not wrong, but the player base is so painfully aware of the fact that (successful) PKs without a OHK opening or a locked apartment are almost unheard of.

I got mugged once a few months back without a OHK. I'm 98% sure the mugger just wanted to spar.

"This is a mugging. Now etwo your weapon and nosave combat."

The mugger brandishes his wooden sword in one hand.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #267 on: October 11, 2018, 07:05:57 PM »
i killed a guy in the desert. with a sword. with no poison. there were no locked doors, there were plenty of places to run, i wasn't a "twinked out reel-lock god". i got the drop on him and killed him because i used other tactics to ensure that escape from me would be difficult. not impossible, but certainly quite difficult.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10387
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #268 on: October 11, 2018, 07:26:47 PM »
I mean, you can also just try bashing someone. There's a reason we have the bash skill.
Also, I like my cootch to have a pert pink color and nice smell. Knowing my luck I would bonk someone with AIDs, get rotten box, and die miserable.

Namino

  • Posts: 443
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #269 on: October 11, 2018, 07:44:24 PM »
I mean, you can also just try bashing someone. There's a reason we have the bash skill.

Boy do I have a log for you.

To answer more thoroughly, bash is a trashcan tier opener. This is my personal opinion but it is definitely rooted in experience. If you succeed a bash, you are standing, your opponent is down, and you are both delayed [though your delay is slightly less]. If you fail a bash, you are prone, delayed, and your opponent has zero delay whatsoever. In short, being the victim of a bash is less detrimental than being the instigator of a failed bash. Having had master bash fail four times in a row on a shorter non-warrior class... yeah. Don't rely on bash. It's a coinflip with the consequences stacked against you.

Edit: I will concede that this is not considering HGs. If you're big enough to counter bash braxat, then nothing I say holds weight in that scenario.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 08:00:21 PM by Namino »

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10387
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #270 on: October 11, 2018, 07:49:45 PM »
Try training bash above low journeyman
Also, I like my cootch to have a pert pink color and nice smell. Knowing my luck I would bonk someone with AIDs, get rotten box, and die miserable.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #271 on: October 11, 2018, 08:24:46 PM »
i have never used bash to succeed a pk.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Dar

  • Posts: 1424
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #272 on: October 11, 2018, 08:34:38 PM »
Heh. I imagine the number of deaths of seasoned PCs due to a succesful bash from a spider, or a rinthi npc is in the thousands.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5322
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #273 on: October 11, 2018, 08:59:15 PM »
Thank you, Kankwhisperer.

https://youtu.be/N184a23mbp0
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote
In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Miradus

  • Posts: 2250
Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
« Reply #274 on: October 11, 2018, 09:11:35 PM »
Thank you, Kankwhisperer.

https://youtu.be/N184a23mbp0


Bahaha! I had to watch this several times. Thanks for the chuckle.