Author Topic: Force c-elf tribes  (Read 4029 times)

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2018, 02:05:34 AM »
Synthesis. If you've played in Jaxa Pah. Then you well know that they are 'not' playable. They're either made too powerful, too iso, or too clunky with the whole, ignore a big chunk of elven culture to make a clan function problem, to be a viable fully fleshed out clan. Every time there was an active membership of Jaxa Pah, they dominated the rinth and various other aspects and things. And every time you start figuring out how did lonefoot elves became part of the clan, you realize that trust tests were a joke.  There is a reason why they're not open to play 'despite' an active celven interest, and it has nothing to do with being codedly capable of being open.

Yeah, I've had one Sandas, a Valuren, and one tribeless elf that eventually rose to the rank of Voice.  Every time they open the clans up, there's a cool period, then there's a period where shit gets straight murderous.

However, I'm not going to place that all at the feet of the c-elf players.  A lot of it has to do with the fact that non-elf players have absolutely no respect for how fucked they are if a few experienced elves get target-locked on them.  There's a whole lot of southsiders who are just like "fuck these guys" and, y'know...that can cause a lot of grief for yourself that you may not be prepared for.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2018, 02:25:34 AM »
Synthesis. If you've played in Jaxa Pah. Then you well know that they are 'not' playable. They're either made too powerful, too iso, or too clunky with the whole, ignore a big chunk of elven culture to make a clan function problem, to be a viable fully fleshed out clan. Every time there was an active membership of Jaxa Pah, they dominated the rinth and various other aspects and things. And every time you start figuring out how did lonefoot elves became part of the clan, you realize that trust tests were a joke.  There is a reason why they're not open to play 'despite' an active celven interest, and it has nothing to do with being codedly capable of being open.

Yeah, I've had one Sandas, a Valuren, and one tribeless elf that eventually rose to the rank of Voice.  Every time they open the clans up, there's a cool period, then there's a period where shit gets straight murderous.

However, I'm not going to place that all at the feet of the c-elf players.  A lot of it has to do with the fact that non-elf players have absolutely no respect for how fucked they are if a few experienced elves get target-locked on them.  There's a whole lot of southsiders who are just like "fuck these guys" and, y'know...that can cause a lot of grief for yourself that you may not be prepared for.

Agreed.  I too am a fan of Celves and odds are good that we played together periodically.

Unfortunately Celves are a weird abomination of strength and weakness intermingled together. Therefore my opinion is that if there will be a group made out of elves. It should be created through entirely IG means. None of those pre-coded clans, just straight up, time consuming, character developing, shit happening that brings elves together into a connection solid enough for them to work together. Whether they trust each other, or not. If they betray each other and the group falls apart, then that's how it's ment to be. If they dont and they stay together enough to start pulling shit off. Well then ... they deserve the level of OPness they become capable of.

Miradus

  • Posts: 2250
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2018, 06:44:13 PM »

I like the general consensus I'm seeing here. Let it grow organically and if it's OP then it's OP because that's not permanent. If a handful of criminal elves run amok for a couple of RL months, then that's just a really cool, player-driven arc. Yes, EVEN if I get mugged. Even if my apartment gets robbed. Even if I get backstabbed for reasons I may or may not know.

As for the strengths and weaknesses, it's a submarine versus a destroyer. An elf is a submarine. Easy pickings when cruising on the surface, but their strength is in running deep, silent, and hitting hard below the water line before disappearing again.

najdorf

  • Posts: 431
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 10:28:42 AM »
Things are good the way they are. Elves in Allanak played (and continue to do so) their roles to contribute to politics nicely. If you haven't noticed, it's probably because they are pulling a good job. If you realise that they don't have a unified tribe, it may also because they create such illusions that fit to city-elven culture so they can manipulate situations to their own favor. However, as in most cases, it is also down to the players. There has been a number of good players in the last few RL years that had a good impact and played their parts beautifully before they perished. That doesn't necessarily mean that karma restriction will be good. Let noobs play and become the pawns and get used/wasted.

650Booger

  • Posts: 596
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 07:08:52 PM »
if Celves in 'nak are hardmode, what is it like to play Celves in Luir's or redstorm?
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Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 07:10:27 PM »
if Celves in 'nak are hardmode, what is it like to play Celves in Luir's or redstorm?

Without a clan/family/group of other elves? Either very easy, very boring, or very short lived.

Inks

  • Posts: 1266
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2018, 06:38:14 AM »
Redstorm especially is brutal on celfs, through either boredom or everything dangerous inside and out.
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2018, 09:02:43 PM »
Nobody else thinks it's weird that most city elves would belong to a tribe according to documentation and most player city elves are going to be independents?
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mansa

  • Posts: 9723
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2018, 11:18:13 PM »
Nobody else thinks it's weird that most city elves would belong to a tribe according to documentation and most player city elves are going to be independents?

You really need to play a city elf.
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spicemustflow

  • Posts: 2489
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2018, 04:23:13 PM »
I really fail to understand what's preventing staff to implement the idea that was expressed in Metekillot's first post. Who said the tribes had to have coded strongholds or territories and to be  powerful crime syndicates?

We could make them so the new players will have a choice of a) Tribe with black inked faces, b) Tribe with yellow inked faces, c) Tribe with red inked faces. This is a caricature of course but just a blurb, two three paragraphs on Allanak/Rinth page would do wonders for city elf players: an inspiration to draw upon when creating their character, instant in-game friends and even more of instant in-game enemies. Last time I played a celf, one had more chance of befriending an aggro guy with no teeth from the rinth than another PC.

Why is this hard? Somebody pointed out that this topic comes out every once in a while, but it comes with a good reason. If staff doesn't want to open the tribes that have a shitload of coding and  both staff and player time behind them, this is what they could do to kickstart the elven population.

All this could have probably been/could probably has been articulated and argumented way better but the poit still stands: Not giving elves their tribes and treating them like tribeless non-entities is breaking the game's lore. I'd rather have them kank plagued away to be honest.


Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2018, 09:02:10 PM »
I really fail to understand what's preventing staff to implement the idea that was expressed in Metekillot's first post. Who said the tribes had to have coded strongholds or territories and to be  powerful crime syndicates?

We could make them so the new players will have a choice of a) Tribe with black inked faces, b) Tribe with yellow inked faces, c) Tribe with red inked faces. This is a caricature of course but just a blurb, two three paragraphs on Allanak/Rinth page would do wonders for city elf players: an inspiration to draw upon when creating their character, instant in-game friends and even more of instant in-game enemies. Last time I played a celf, one had more chance of befriending an aggro guy with no teeth from the rinth than another PC.

Why is this hard? Somebody pointed out that this topic comes out every once in a while, but it comes with a good reason. If staff doesn't want to open the tribes that have a shitload of coding and  both staff and player time behind them, this is what they could do to kickstart the elven population.

All this could have probably been/could probably has been articulated and argumented way better but the poit still stands: Not giving elves their tribes and treating them like tribeless non-entities is breaking the game's lore. I'd rather have them kank plagued away to be honest.

After much consideration, staff will submit to your request.

spicemustflow

  • Posts: 2489
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2018, 02:07:30 AM »
Thank you for the snark my good man.

I've just read some of your posts above and it looks like your primary concern is the power of an elven clan relative to how easy it is for outsiders to join ('loyalty trusts are joke'). Well, with a coded tribe there wouldn't be need for half assed loyalty tests as 1) PCs would be born into it and 2) membership cap would be implemented just like with about every other clan.

I'm not sure why do people seem to have an issue with powerful celf clans. It adds another flavor of crime to the city life, it would spare common man as elves and shorter criminal clans kill each other and it also makes perfect lore sense. You don't shit on Kurac around Luirs, you bow to a lady Whatever and her bodyguards on the street, why not pay respect to the weird tattooed dude when you see him at night in a street you should be avoiding anyway? Especially since the census says that almost half of the city is comprised of his kind.

(obv the above doesn't apply to the templars and such. But they should know how to exploit various power structures in the city without resorting to bloodsheet, carrot and stick and all that)

PPS, a lot of people enjoy playing tribeless 'lost' elves. I did, a long ago I was a member of a rinthi elven crew, I hated the leader (PC not the player) and thought his decisions were horrible. Turned out mine were and he outsourced an assassination. So I get your point that ad hoc fluid elven groups are fun, but it's not the only fun with elves you can have.

Sorry, one more thing. Speaking of Jaxa Pah, it was a wonderfully messy organization before they tried to sort it out. We had three tribes pretending to be one if someone asks. Everybody was suspicious of everybody else. We need that

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2018, 02:34:52 AM »
Every elf you run into should have a pack of 5 other sharps ready to ride or die. Unfortunately this is almost never the case unless they're Abundantly Obvious Jaxa Pah or a Bynner. Everyone knows this and treats elves like breeds witg lower strength and the mortal enemy "steal" skill. It should be more Mexican Standoff to fuck with an elf, knowing they'll have backup to make your life hell later, instead of how it is now.
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4163
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2018, 06:27:45 AM »
Force what elf tribes?
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2018, 06:51:12 AM »
There's the problem. You'd think a race with a universal cultural commonality and a higher intelligence than humans (along with a genetic bent toward fierce loyalty) would form organizations of more than a few dozen.
My thoughts.

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Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2018, 10:14:17 AM »
There's the problem. You'd think a race with a universal cultural commonality and a higher intelligence than humans (along with a genetic bent toward fierce loyalty) would form organizations of more than a few dozen.


Us vs Them is preventing them from forming big organizations. I suppose elves have an extremely small monkeysphere.

Inky

  • Posts: 218
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2018, 02:33:08 PM »
No the real problem is 20 year old documentation that at best reflects an earlier era.

Are city elves nomads? No. Not according to any dictionary definition.
Can you play a wandering city elf? Not really.
Are city elves part of tribes? Not unless you do a family role.

Easily the most important aspect of playing and playing around a city elf is understanding the racism that is directed towards elves.

Is this even mentioned in the documentation? Nope.

Patuk

  • Posts: 4163
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2018, 04:40:25 PM »
Maybe if the documentation doesn't match up well to the game, it isn't the former you should take issue with.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 6193
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2018, 04:51:22 PM »
There are some things that could do with updating, but oftentimes I think they're over-criticized because it doesn't fit what people want to do.

For example...elves do wander.  All over the city.  Constantly.  Looking for deals, things of interest, information, easy marks, so on and so forth.  But because this doesn't align with traveling across the known, they say it is no longer wandering.  When you play an elf, try playing it out that way.  You don't park in the tavern, waiting for interaction; you wander around looking for things that catch your eye.  It actually works out pretty well, for how they are.

The other half of it comes from establishment of documentation as 'What you should do' versus 'how things are'.  Players not playing in tribes doesn't make the entire city elf culture less tribal; it makes a tribal culture where players are playing the ones out of the norm, the ruffians, the sizeable portion of the populace that was not powerful enough to bust out into a full on tribe and is, instead, the tattered remnants of one subjected to the prevalent violence of the culture.  I have no hard times without tribes as an elf, because I accept that I'm not playing that facet of an elf, at least not yet.  But it influences the mentality, the thoughts, and the direction of the character.
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mansa

  • Posts: 9723
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 05:02:55 PM »
I would love to see a dozen city elf tribes published on the website, and you're free to join any / use any in your background.

It doesn't have to be coded clan rooms, just the ability to show that there are Elven tribes.

Documents, anyone?
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Inky

  • Posts: 218
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2018, 06:01:49 PM »
For example...elves do wander.  All over the city.  Constantly.  Looking for deals, things of interest, information, easy marks, so on and so forth.  But because this doesn't align with traveling across the known, they say it is no longer wandering.  When you play an elf, try playing it out that way.  You don't park in the tavern, waiting for interaction; you wander around looking for things that catch your eye.  It actually works out pretty well, for how they are.

I would consider this categorically different from wandering, nomadic behavior. If this was the intention of the documentation, it should be reflected in the documentation.

Quote
The other half of it comes from establishment of documentation as 'What you should do' versus 'how things are'.  Players not playing in tribes doesn't make the entire city elf culture less tribal; it makes a tribal culture where players are playing the ones out of the norm, the ruffians, the sizeable portion of the populace that was not powerful enough to bust out into a full on tribe and is, instead, the tattered remnants of one subjected to the prevalent violence of the culture.  I have no hard times without tribes as an elf, because I accept that I'm not playing that facet of an elf, at least not yet.  But it influences the mentality, the thoughts, and the direction of the character.

Usually when we consider tribe, we consider blood relations and family ties. Sure myself and a few other lone elves can band together into a group, crime syndicate etc. But it's not really a "tribe" except in the loosest sense. The role playing section does a better job of pasting over this by describing the "tribal mentality" but even this is a clunky redefinition of terms that uses "tribe" in a way that isn't really "tribe".

But honestly, all of the above is just noise when I'm playing a city elf. Just play a shiftier human that prefers elves over other races and you'll be just peachy.

Quote
Easily the most important aspect of playing and playing around a city elf is understanding the racism that is directed towards elves.

This is the big one that should really get a blurb. Racism is implicit in the game but hardly acknowledged in the documentation.

Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2018, 12:37:16 AM »
In some ways, its a lot easier to just play a criminal human instead of a city elf. I think that is one of the problems, although not for everyone.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1501
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2018, 02:24:23 AM »
In some ways, its a lot easier to just play a criminal human instead of a city elf. I think that is one of the problems, although not for everyone.


When you're by yourself, "everything" is easier if you play a criminal human instead of a city elf. City Elf is Armageddon Hard Mode! It's essence of the macabre awesomeness.

Vex

  • Posts: 228
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2018, 02:52:17 AM »
City Elf is Armageddon Hard Mode!

Please, do not perpetuate, this nonsense. It doesn't help, at all.
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Nao

  • Posts: 1997
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2018, 03:39:41 AM »
City Elf is Armageddon Hard Mode!

Please, do not perpetuate, this nonsense. It doesn't help, at all.
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Please, do not perpetuate, this nonsense. It doesn't help, at all.
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Itís also just not true. They have weaknesses do limitations, but they  also have strengths, and niches they will dominate if you play to them. I havenít found them harder to keep alive than other races, either.
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