Author Topic: Force c-elf tribes  (Read 3835 times)

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10432
Force c-elf tribes
« on: August 11, 2018, 11:05:11 PM »
Force city elves to get approved (or point at in chargen) a choice between maybe 2-3 tribes with their own weird hat tribal bullshit, so that city elves can properly be represented as the second most populous race in Zalanthas by giving players who app into them an implicit and instant clan connection of support and shit. How many c-elves do you know?
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

Dar

  • Posts: 1461
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2018, 12:49:14 AM »
It's so much more complicated then that.

Delven tribes have a territory of their own. A highly defensible, mildly lucrative, and highly expensive to conquer. And if things get hairy, the entire tribe can simply move camp. Making the entire expense turn into a wisp of smoke.

Now Celven tribes. Will either be hiiiighly pro-templarate, long con oriented, variation of Bejeweled Hand (A clan known primarily for their gem cutting craftsmanship, subtle crime, and intense loyalty to Muk Utep).

Or they will be in a highly defensible position. This wont make it impossible for Templarate to squish them, but will be expensive. This on another hand, will make them highly powerful. Powerful enough to easily curb stomp the guild and have the ground to bring out talent that can stay unknown enough to southside, but interactive/protected enough to be tolerable to play. Talent that with a bit of time, will be able to scratch off templars like tissue paper off the boot.

Celves tend to be pretty damn powerful when in tribes, or small knit families.

yousuff

  • Posts: 245
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2018, 07:17:57 AM »
At the risk of going offtopic, I've made a rolecall for a celf tribe looking for members.

Ontopic however, I think celven tribes should have more representation. I don't think players should be forced into them, but I feel they should at least exist with the possibility of players applying to be a part of one on chargen. Especially with the expansion of Allanak in the last few years, with the rooftops, and new rooms scattered throughout the city offering numerous little niches for tribes to be founded.
yousuck

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2018, 10:02:51 AM »
'rinth-based c-elf tribes will never flourish beyond more than a flash in the pan, for a few reasons:

1.  The completely irrational berserker player response to theft of all sorts.
2.  C-elves aren't karma-restricted, which means noobs can get in and fuck everything up for everyone else.
3.  They don't have a natural non-aggro basis for interaction with the rest of the playerbase.
4.  It's far too easy for roundear bounty hunters to get deep into the eastside, murder elf PCs, then get away
5.  Crime code is brutal, and even veteran status can't prevent you from failing a dice roll every once in a while.
6.  Not being able to travel is painfully boring.
7.  City-elves are super weak when it comes to noob-status combat, and it takes a long, long time to get competitive with dwarves and strong humans.

In order for a 'rinth-based c-elf tribe to flourish they need:
1. Karma or highly-vetted special app restriction
2. A reason for the rest of the game to interact with them that doesn't involve killing on sight
3. A real safe haven

Even if those were provided...the combination of starting out as a pathetic weakling, brutal crime-response, and static-location boredom will probably always be overwhelming, and those aren't things that are likely to be changed at all.

It's this thread again.

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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10432
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2018, 11:03:47 AM »
Make c-elves 1 karma requirement.
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

yousuff

  • Posts: 245
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2018, 11:37:38 AM »
Make c-elves 1 karma requirement.
I'd actually rather this and see them properly represented
yousuck

Vex

  • Posts: 227
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2018, 06:09:20 PM »
City elves are, imo, more iconic of the games theme than any other species. They should have coded representation, in the form of an OPTIONAL clan to join upon character generation. I say optional, so that lone wolf elves have people to seek work through, or have affiliation status with, similar to human/half-elf/dwarf/half-giant and even mul independents do. Even one city elf clan, with a couple PCs, could provide interaction and opportunities for involvement in the goings on, that is quite often closed to elf PCs.

There is little in the way of options for city elves, as they're quite difficult to maintain due to isolation/lack of options/difficulty of travel/extreme ooc player bias. When I say extreme ooc bias, what I mean is, players are predisposed towards treating elves, as ran-do-gank fodder, due to the knowledge they're codedly inferior to, basically, every other race, have almost no chance of having meaningful affiliations, and have no clan backing as an OOC rule, unless joining one of the WEAR OUR UNIFORM ALWAYS clans, which are naturally combat based and require extensive travel... which is not the forte of city elves.

I feel it important to insist, as well, that a city elf clan does not have to be criminal. I feel the portrayal of elves as suicidally stupid, hyper-klepto, wildly anti-social rebels is entirely too common. You can have an elf who is not into picking every pocket, stealing all the furniture, flipping off the man and spree killing npcs in the commons. You can have a clan with a legitimate front, it doesn't matter what, pottery or weaving or some other commons trade skill, with shady backroom goings on.

Indulge in theft, burglary, smuggle poisons and peddle the cure, be the Guild foil and run protection rackets that force players to choose a devil and take sides by association, no more friends-with-everyone safety, but in a way that keeps up a legitimate front. Give the Templars a reason, to come collect tithes, to distribute jobs to elves and have an alternative to the Guild. The guild PCs I meet, are often lazy, usually incompetent, and keep their positions and lives, because there is no competition, where there SHOULD be AMPLE competition. Allanak is EXTREMELY corrupt, after all. The life of an organized criminal should be dangerous and extremely cut-throat competitive, not lax, lounging in the Gaj, like some shitcloak, waiting and hoping someone will offer to pay protection money, for the garbage in their apartment.

As of now, you can play a city elf for a year or more and have almost no meaningful interaction, with other elves. There are always strings of throw away, for-the-lolz elves that are full retard right from the start, but, they're not even real PCs imo. Please, don't do this, it's extremely harmful, when most players are already ooc predisposed into thinking "elf players, are idiots".

Even one, again, OPTIONAL clan, would give elves some legitimacy and accessibility to the game, if it's done right. A full-blown crime syndicate would, likely, result in a lot of problems, as it's basically a license for elf PCs to gang up and shit all over the floors, safe from betrayal and similar such. A clan with a legitimate front, that it has to maintain, whilst dabbling in other, shady business behind closed doors, is a built-in rein, since even if they have ten max enforcers with super stats, if they get overt and overzealous, it'll bring Templarate wrath down upon the entire tribe, which is, naturally, bad for the tribe and as un-elf-like as can be.

There is no shortage of half-elves and dwarves, because they have plenty of options for all walk of character. There is next to no city elves, who aren't of the disposable, comic-relief or grief variety. The few there are, tend to be forced into extreme isolation, or away from Allanak, since they're going to be hunted until dead, simply for existing. At least until they're powerful enough by code, that the rest of the races have to take them a bit more seriously, or be splattered.

Closing the coded distance, to be competitive with races, like dwarves, takes a lot of time, as I know well. It isn't really practical, but is possible. It isn't a fun way, to run a PC, either way. The most boring aspect of my elf, was the grind it took, to no longer be a lazy players gank away, from having to reroll.

Elves could be an important facet of the game, but I feel it would be impossible to achieve legitimacy without a coded clan, backed and supported by staff, in the same way other clans, for other species operate. That little southern clan, which is almost always empty, has an ASTOUNDING and RIDICULOUS amount of ooc protection that, basically, forces their relevance on the game.

A city elf clan, given a smidgen of that support, could make a broad difference in how enjoyable, and accessible, elvish play can be.
"Mortals do drown so."

Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2018, 03:50:38 AM »
I appreciate the nod to elven culture by setting up the tent-topped building, but I think it'd be super easy to write up two (they probably wouldn't do three for various reasons you can think of right away) pages of documentation, one for each of two city elf tribes based in Allanak, that you can join right away. One would be easier for humans to talk to than the other, one would be kind of, you know, the sort of hard mode veteran elves tend to go for, and the other would be for people who wanted to be an elf and not have to think about jail all the time.

Then at chargen, you could choose:

A) The Almost Nice Dudes, B) The Sons of Anarchy, or C) a small independent tribe.

The Almost Nice Dudes would be who you joined if you wanted to talk to people without being obligated to look in their pockets first. The Sons of Anarchy was an alright show, its about a couple of vicious biker gangs that are fighting each other throughout it. I am implying that you could go totally hardcore in one tribe but also have a better chance of making it initially, and have the dependable buddies you're supposed to have.
Playing something new could be just what you need!

Inks

  • Posts: 1256
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2018, 04:49:32 PM »
Anything Mekillot wants is probably something I am against since I was forced to be in the same tribe with him once.

I would like an optional tribe for celf with 1 karma requirement. That would be cool. What Mekillot is trying to do here is to further weaken celfs by the look of it.

Celfs are what defines Zalanthas for me. It is a hard mode that many players can't pull off. It is almost a completely different game when you play one.

Love it.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 04:56:01 PM by Inks »
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10432
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2018, 12:48:22 AM »
What
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

yousuff

  • Posts: 245
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2018, 04:29:20 AM »
What
All aboard the metekillot hate train choo choo ;)

I dunno, I'm kind of hoping for there to be a playable coded celf tribe sometime soon. Whether player created or staff created, I feel it's vacancy is quite obvious
yousuck

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2018, 11:44:27 AM »
There are at least 4 coded city-elf tribes in Allanak alone.

It's just a matter of the Staff choosing to open them or not.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

yousuff

  • Posts: 245
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2018, 01:35:47 PM »
playable
4 coded elf clans doesn't mean squat if they're non playable.
Honestly I wouldn't mind even a retcon/documentation rewrite or whatever might be required to make one of them playable.
yousuck

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2018, 06:19:54 PM »
playable
4 coded elf clans doesn't mean squat if they're non playable.
Honestly I wouldn't mind even a retcon/documentation rewrite or whatever might be required to make one of them playable.

They're all playable.  I've been clanned Sandas, Valuren, and Kanosh.

Like I said:  it's just a matter of the Staff opening them up for play again.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

maxid

  • Posts: 725
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2018, 06:39:03 PM »
playable
4 coded elf clans doesn't mean squat if they're non playable.
Honestly I wouldn't mind even a retcon/documentation rewrite or whatever might be required to make one of them playable.

They're all playable.  I've been clanned Sandas, Valuren, and Kanosh.

Like I said:  it's just a matter of the Staff opening them up for play again.

You're mildly aggressively disagreeing with yousuff just to secretly vehemently agree with yousuff.  You don't like the terminology he's using to indicate that they're not open, which is what they seem to mean by 'playable'.


If staff doesn't allow apps for a thing, that thing is not playable.   Nilazis are not playable, I've had a Nilazi.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2018, 07:00:54 PM »
Sidestepping the argument about whether "playable" is grammatically equivalent to "open for play...."

My point was that they don't need a retcon or a doc change.  The docs probably aren't the reason they're closed to play.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

yousuff

  • Posts: 245
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2018, 07:28:19 PM »
I'm gonna assume english isn't your first language or it's some weird vernacular of my own country. If something is non playable, it is by default, not open for play.

Like I mean no snark or anything, I did fully mean no celf clans are open for play. I think the docs are the reason why they are currently closed, because I can't think of any other reason why. Nearly everything else has gotten a revamp, and I'd say they've fallen behind the standard of every other playable, open clan.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 07:31:42 PM by yousuff »
yousuck

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2018, 07:38:15 PM »
"Playable" to me means a role that a) has full coded support and b) has a useful place in the game.

"Open to play" means a playable role that Staff will allow you to play.

For example:  a rock is not a playable role; Nilazis are playable, but not open to play.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

yousuff

  • Posts: 245
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2018, 07:44:45 PM »
I mean this in good humour, but


 ;D

Context is a thing you know. It's pretty obvious what I meant regardless of technicalities. I'm not going to say anything further about it though.

Celfs should have playable open coded clan representation. As has been said for the bajillionthtime. I remember this topic back in 2016 and I'm sure it's going to arise again in the future
yousuck

maxid

  • Posts: 725
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2018, 09:18:13 PM »
I'm gonna assume english isn't your first language or it's some weird vernacular of my own country. If something is non playable, it is by default, not open for play.

Like I mean no snark or anything, I did fully mean no celf clans are open for play. I think the docs are the reason why they are currently closed, because I can't think of any other reason why. Nearly everything else has gotten a revamp, and I'd say they've fallen behind the standard of every other playable, open clan.

Synthesis is very pedantic at times.   I don't say this to attack him at all, just help put you at ease - the problem here is not with you.  This is his pattern.


To contribute: I agree with him that they don't need doc changes.  Unless the docs are the reason the staff has them closed and an update would make them open for play.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 09:22:18 PM by maxid »

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6192
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2018, 02:39:23 PM »
I don't think he's being pedantic as much as using the full power of words to be as accurate as possible to avoid misunderstanding.

I too am in the camp of elves being the true zalanthan story. City elves are great, and I agree that some tribe support would give them the city presence required for them to actually contribute to the game in a meaningful way. They can do things now, but in reality, the 'elven bloc' should be just as present (not powerful) as the GMH bloc or noble bloc. They are a presence, a danger, an asset, an obstacle in ways that simply cannot be portrayed by the lonefoot.

Staff support for elves all the way. Not much revamping or fixing of them needed, if any.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Dar

  • Posts: 1461
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2018, 04:39:22 PM »
Synthesis. If you've played in Jaxa Pah. Then you well know that they are 'not' playable. They're either made too powerful, too iso, or too clunky with the whole, ignore a big chunk of elven culture to make a clan function problem, to be a viable fully fleshed out clan. Every time there was an active membership of Jaxa Pah, they dominated the rinth and various other aspects and things. And every time you start figuring out how did lonefoot elves became part of the clan, you realize that trust tests were a joke.  There is a reason why they're not open to play 'despite' an active celven interest, and it has nothing to do with being codedly capable of being open.


Armaddict

  • Posts: 6192
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2018, 05:44:38 PM »
Jaxa are kind of a weird thing.  It's supposed to be a mixed conglomerate of tribes, not a tribe unto itself.  Unfortunately, that's really hard for people to play out because elves are assholes and exclusive rather than inviting and inclusive.

That said, I don't consider them to be one of the actual tribes open for play precisely because they're not a tribe.  If played well and with active guidance/reinforcement, it's a ripe place to show the problem of city elves; they're actually very powerful, very deep-seated, and actively involved everywhere...but they get in each other's way just as much as they help each other, making the 'allied elven front' a very scary prospect that is also very rarely seen.  Other groups actively work to avoid giving them a cause to unite over.

Tribes separated though, the Haruch Kemad, the Valuren, the Kanosh, the Sandas...those all exist.  There is even an elven market clan (or there was one) for lonefeet to get into in order to work for the families as a non-blooded member of the community.  That's all inactive at this point, and there really isn't much reason for them to be.

Quote
they dominated the rinth and various other aspects and things.

This, in particular, though, is the greatest barrier.  Not because of how true it is in application, but because people don't like how true it is in the actual sense of how it comes together.  A group of elves, selfless and selfish for and with each other, absolutely trusting and closer than close, is a scary prospect.  That's not a flaw, that's what makes elves elves in the world.

That isn't to call anything of what you said wrong.  Only saying that the perspective on elves is that they are meant to solely exist as weaklings and non-powerhouses, and I think that needs to shift before you can find any meaningful elven play.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Dar

  • Posts: 1461
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2018, 06:12:16 PM »
The problem here is that majority of Rinthi based Celven tribes success and achievement comes from volatility. Scamming, conning, thieving, assassinating, extorting, etc, etc. Which in itself is absolutely awesome!  It's also very fun and if there is a coded clan doing that, it will stem with numbers. Numbers who are supposedly absolutely loyal to each other, put their clan ahead of themselves, and are willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of the tribe.

Such loyalty either takes a very long time, or requires to be chargenned from the beginning. Or be glossed over slightly and a lonefoot elf immediately becomes this. Which is obviously 'meh'.

But if you take a clan of active members. Let's say 3-5 of them who are very loyal to each other and their main source of achievement, bragging rights, and way of earning coin is volatile towards the rest of the city, the damage they are capable of is immense. For the most part, the balance is maintained by lack of safe training grounds and short lifespan due to silliness. I'm actually kind of curious how will things work out now with the new subguilds. Now that celves are not born with barely any defense and 70-90 hp totals.

Miradus

  • Posts: 2250
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2018, 08:06:42 PM »

One of the issues I have seen playing elves is that nobody will do anything with you because of these "loyalty tests". They won't go so far as to even rob an apartment with you unless they've put forward the requisite 100 hours or so of roleplay into your relationship.

All the crime movies and books, the criminals NEVER trust each other. That's what makes for good conflict.

The Guild runs on rails pretty much. The only fun to be had in the Guild is when it's been run OFF the rails. Criminal elves have always seemed to me to be like they should be borderline off the rails at ALL TIMES. My previous elf attempts though resulted in either being picked out of a 100,000 vNPC lineup for pickpocketing because they saw someone "very tall" or trying to navigate climb code with max 84hp.

Elves are indeed hard mode. Which has always made them fun, in my few excursions into it, but desert elves are far LESS fun. Why? Because the canon has been poured over them like concrete years ago and it's extremely hard to break out into anything unique. That, in itself, makes me less inclined to see concrete coded elf clans in the city.




Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2018, 02:05:34 AM »
Synthesis. If you've played in Jaxa Pah. Then you well know that they are 'not' playable. They're either made too powerful, too iso, or too clunky with the whole, ignore a big chunk of elven culture to make a clan function problem, to be a viable fully fleshed out clan. Every time there was an active membership of Jaxa Pah, they dominated the rinth and various other aspects and things. And every time you start figuring out how did lonefoot elves became part of the clan, you realize that trust tests were a joke.  There is a reason why they're not open to play 'despite' an active celven interest, and it has nothing to do with being codedly capable of being open.

Yeah, I've had one Sandas, a Valuren, and one tribeless elf that eventually rose to the rank of Voice.  Every time they open the clans up, there's a cool period, then there's a period where shit gets straight murderous.

However, I'm not going to place that all at the feet of the c-elf players.  A lot of it has to do with the fact that non-elf players have absolutely no respect for how fucked they are if a few experienced elves get target-locked on them.  There's a whole lot of southsiders who are just like "fuck these guys" and, y'know...that can cause a lot of grief for yourself that you may not be prepared for.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Dar

  • Posts: 1461
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2018, 02:25:34 AM »
Synthesis. If you've played in Jaxa Pah. Then you well know that they are 'not' playable. They're either made too powerful, too iso, or too clunky with the whole, ignore a big chunk of elven culture to make a clan function problem, to be a viable fully fleshed out clan. Every time there was an active membership of Jaxa Pah, they dominated the rinth and various other aspects and things. And every time you start figuring out how did lonefoot elves became part of the clan, you realize that trust tests were a joke.  There is a reason why they're not open to play 'despite' an active celven interest, and it has nothing to do with being codedly capable of being open.

Yeah, I've had one Sandas, a Valuren, and one tribeless elf that eventually rose to the rank of Voice.  Every time they open the clans up, there's a cool period, then there's a period where shit gets straight murderous.

However, I'm not going to place that all at the feet of the c-elf players.  A lot of it has to do with the fact that non-elf players have absolutely no respect for how fucked they are if a few experienced elves get target-locked on them.  There's a whole lot of southsiders who are just like "fuck these guys" and, y'know...that can cause a lot of grief for yourself that you may not be prepared for.

Agreed.  I too am a fan of Celves and odds are good that we played together periodically.

Unfortunately Celves are a weird abomination of strength and weakness intermingled together. Therefore my opinion is that if there will be a group made out of elves. It should be created through entirely IG means. None of those pre-coded clans, just straight up, time consuming, character developing, shit happening that brings elves together into a connection solid enough for them to work together. Whether they trust each other, or not. If they betray each other and the group falls apart, then that's how it's ment to be. If they dont and they stay together enough to start pulling shit off. Well then ... they deserve the level of OPness they become capable of.

Miradus

  • Posts: 2250
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2018, 06:44:13 PM »

I like the general consensus I'm seeing here. Let it grow organically and if it's OP then it's OP because that's not permanent. If a handful of criminal elves run amok for a couple of RL months, then that's just a really cool, player-driven arc. Yes, EVEN if I get mugged. Even if my apartment gets robbed. Even if I get backstabbed for reasons I may or may not know.

As for the strengths and weaknesses, it's a submarine versus a destroyer. An elf is a submarine. Easy pickings when cruising on the surface, but their strength is in running deep, silent, and hitting hard below the water line before disappearing again.

najdorf

  • Posts: 431
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 10:28:42 AM »
Things are good the way they are. Elves in Allanak played (and continue to do so) their roles to contribute to politics nicely. If you haven't noticed, it's probably because they are pulling a good job. If you realise that they don't have a unified tribe, it may also because they create such illusions that fit to city-elven culture so they can manipulate situations to their own favor. However, as in most cases, it is also down to the players. There has been a number of good players in the last few RL years that had a good impact and played their parts beautifully before they perished. That doesn't necessarily mean that karma restriction will be good. Let noobs play and become the pawns and get used/wasted.

650Booger

  • Posts: 595
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 07:08:52 PM »
if Celves in 'nak are hardmode, what is it like to play Celves in Luir's or redstorm?
"Historical analogy is the last refuge of people who can't grasp the current situation."
-Kim Stanley Robinson

Dar

  • Posts: 1461
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 07:10:27 PM »
if Celves in 'nak are hardmode, what is it like to play Celves in Luir's or redstorm?

Without a clan/family/group of other elves? Either very easy, very boring, or very short lived.

Inks

  • Posts: 1256
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2018, 06:38:14 AM »
Redstorm especially is brutal on celfs, through either boredom or everything dangerous inside and out.
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10432
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2018, 09:02:43 PM »
Nobody else thinks it's weird that most city elves would belong to a tribe according to documentation and most player city elves are going to be independents?
My thoughts.

A sex and torture survey upon character creation

mansa

  • Posts: 9716
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2018, 11:18:13 PM »
Nobody else thinks it's weird that most city elves would belong to a tribe according to documentation and most player city elves are going to be independents?

You really need to play a city elf.
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spicemustflow

  • Posts: 2489
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2018, 04:23:13 PM »
I really fail to understand what's preventing staff to implement the idea that was expressed in Metekillot's first post. Who said the tribes had to have coded strongholds or territories and to be  powerful crime syndicates?

We could make them so the new players will have a choice of a) Tribe with black inked faces, b) Tribe with yellow inked faces, c) Tribe with red inked faces. This is a caricature of course but just a blurb, two three paragraphs on Allanak/Rinth page would do wonders for city elf players: an inspiration to draw upon when creating their character, instant in-game friends and even more of instant in-game enemies. Last time I played a celf, one had more chance of befriending an aggro guy with no teeth from the rinth than another PC.

Why is this hard? Somebody pointed out that this topic comes out every once in a while, but it comes with a good reason. If staff doesn't want to open the tribes that have a shitload of coding and  both staff and player time behind them, this is what they could do to kickstart the elven population.

All this could have probably been/could probably has been articulated and argumented way better but the poit still stands: Not giving elves their tribes and treating them like tribeless non-entities is breaking the game's lore. I'd rather have them kank plagued away to be honest.


Dar

  • Posts: 1461
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2018, 09:02:10 PM »
I really fail to understand what's preventing staff to implement the idea that was expressed in Metekillot's first post. Who said the tribes had to have coded strongholds or territories and to be  powerful crime syndicates?

We could make them so the new players will have a choice of a) Tribe with black inked faces, b) Tribe with yellow inked faces, c) Tribe with red inked faces. This is a caricature of course but just a blurb, two three paragraphs on Allanak/Rinth page would do wonders for city elf players: an inspiration to draw upon when creating their character, instant in-game friends and even more of instant in-game enemies. Last time I played a celf, one had more chance of befriending an aggro guy with no teeth from the rinth than another PC.

Why is this hard? Somebody pointed out that this topic comes out every once in a while, but it comes with a good reason. If staff doesn't want to open the tribes that have a shitload of coding and  both staff and player time behind them, this is what they could do to kickstart the elven population.

All this could have probably been/could probably has been articulated and argumented way better but the poit still stands: Not giving elves their tribes and treating them like tribeless non-entities is breaking the game's lore. I'd rather have them kank plagued away to be honest.

After much consideration, staff will submit to your request.

spicemustflow

  • Posts: 2489
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2018, 02:07:30 AM »
Thank you for the snark my good man.

I've just read some of your posts above and it looks like your primary concern is the power of an elven clan relative to how easy it is for outsiders to join ('loyalty trusts are joke'). Well, with a coded tribe there wouldn't be need for half assed loyalty tests as 1) PCs would be born into it and 2) membership cap would be implemented just like with about every other clan.

I'm not sure why do people seem to have an issue with powerful celf clans. It adds another flavor of crime to the city life, it would spare common man as elves and shorter criminal clans kill each other and it also makes perfect lore sense. You don't shit on Kurac around Luirs, you bow to a lady Whatever and her bodyguards on the street, why not pay respect to the weird tattooed dude when you see him at night in a street you should be avoiding anyway? Especially since the census says that almost half of the city is comprised of his kind.

(obv the above doesn't apply to the templars and such. But they should know how to exploit various power structures in the city without resorting to bloodsheet, carrot and stick and all that)

PPS, a lot of people enjoy playing tribeless 'lost' elves. I did, a long ago I was a member of a rinthi elven crew, I hated the leader (PC not the player) and thought his decisions were horrible. Turned out mine were and he outsourced an assassination. So I get your point that ad hoc fluid elven groups are fun, but it's not the only fun with elves you can have.

Sorry, one more thing. Speaking of Jaxa Pah, it was a wonderfully messy organization before they tried to sort it out. We had three tribes pretending to be one if someone asks. Everybody was suspicious of everybody else. We need that

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10432
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2018, 02:34:52 AM »
Every elf you run into should have a pack of 5 other sharps ready to ride or die. Unfortunately this is almost never the case unless they're Abundantly Obvious Jaxa Pah or a Bynner. Everyone knows this and treats elves like breeds witg lower strength and the mortal enemy "steal" skill. It should be more Mexican Standoff to fuck with an elf, knowing they'll have backup to make your life hell later, instead of how it is now.
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4163
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2018, 06:27:45 AM »
Force what elf tribes?
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10432
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2018, 06:51:12 AM »
There's the problem. You'd think a race with a universal cultural commonality and a higher intelligence than humans (along with a genetic bent toward fierce loyalty) would form organizations of more than a few dozen.
My thoughts.

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Dar

  • Posts: 1461
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2018, 10:14:17 AM »
There's the problem. You'd think a race with a universal cultural commonality and a higher intelligence than humans (along with a genetic bent toward fierce loyalty) would form organizations of more than a few dozen.


Us vs Them is preventing them from forming big organizations. I suppose elves have an extremely small monkeysphere.

Inky

  • Posts: 218
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2018, 02:33:08 PM »
No the real problem is 20 year old documentation that at best reflects an earlier era.

Are city elves nomads? No. Not according to any dictionary definition.
Can you play a wandering city elf? Not really.
Are city elves part of tribes? Not unless you do a family role.

Easily the most important aspect of playing and playing around a city elf is understanding the racism that is directed towards elves.

Is this even mentioned in the documentation? Nope.

Patuk

  • Posts: 4163
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2018, 04:40:25 PM »
Maybe if the documentation doesn't match up well to the game, it isn't the former you should take issue with.
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Armaddict

  • Posts: 6192
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2018, 04:51:22 PM »
There are some things that could do with updating, but oftentimes I think they're over-criticized because it doesn't fit what people want to do.

For example...elves do wander.  All over the city.  Constantly.  Looking for deals, things of interest, information, easy marks, so on and so forth.  But because this doesn't align with traveling across the known, they say it is no longer wandering.  When you play an elf, try playing it out that way.  You don't park in the tavern, waiting for interaction; you wander around looking for things that catch your eye.  It actually works out pretty well, for how they are.

The other half of it comes from establishment of documentation as 'What you should do' versus 'how things are'.  Players not playing in tribes doesn't make the entire city elf culture less tribal; it makes a tribal culture where players are playing the ones out of the norm, the ruffians, the sizeable portion of the populace that was not powerful enough to bust out into a full on tribe and is, instead, the tattered remnants of one subjected to the prevalent violence of the culture.  I have no hard times without tribes as an elf, because I accept that I'm not playing that facet of an elf, at least not yet.  But it influences the mentality, the thoughts, and the direction of the character.
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mansa

  • Posts: 9716
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 05:02:55 PM »
I would love to see a dozen city elf tribes published on the website, and you're free to join any / use any in your background.

It doesn't have to be coded clan rooms, just the ability to show that there are Elven tribes.

Documents, anyone?
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


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Inky

  • Posts: 218
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2018, 06:01:49 PM »
For example...elves do wander.  All over the city.  Constantly.  Looking for deals, things of interest, information, easy marks, so on and so forth.  But because this doesn't align with traveling across the known, they say it is no longer wandering.  When you play an elf, try playing it out that way.  You don't park in the tavern, waiting for interaction; you wander around looking for things that catch your eye.  It actually works out pretty well, for how they are.

I would consider this categorically different from wandering, nomadic behavior. If this was the intention of the documentation, it should be reflected in the documentation.

Quote
The other half of it comes from establishment of documentation as 'What you should do' versus 'how things are'.  Players not playing in tribes doesn't make the entire city elf culture less tribal; it makes a tribal culture where players are playing the ones out of the norm, the ruffians, the sizeable portion of the populace that was not powerful enough to bust out into a full on tribe and is, instead, the tattered remnants of one subjected to the prevalent violence of the culture.  I have no hard times without tribes as an elf, because I accept that I'm not playing that facet of an elf, at least not yet.  But it influences the mentality, the thoughts, and the direction of the character.

Usually when we consider tribe, we consider blood relations and family ties. Sure myself and a few other lone elves can band together into a group, crime syndicate etc. But it's not really a "tribe" except in the loosest sense. The role playing section does a better job of pasting over this by describing the "tribal mentality" but even this is a clunky redefinition of terms that uses "tribe" in a way that isn't really "tribe".

But honestly, all of the above is just noise when I'm playing a city elf. Just play a shiftier human that prefers elves over other races and you'll be just peachy.

Quote
Easily the most important aspect of playing and playing around a city elf is understanding the racism that is directed towards elves.

This is the big one that should really get a blurb. Racism is implicit in the game but hardly acknowledged in the documentation.

Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2018, 12:37:16 AM »
In some ways, its a lot easier to just play a criminal human instead of a city elf. I think that is one of the problems, although not for everyone.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1461
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2018, 02:24:23 AM »
In some ways, its a lot easier to just play a criminal human instead of a city elf. I think that is one of the problems, although not for everyone.


When you're by yourself, "everything" is easier if you play a criminal human instead of a city elf. City Elf is Armageddon Hard Mode! It's essence of the macabre awesomeness.

Vex

  • Posts: 227
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2018, 02:52:17 AM »
City Elf is Armageddon Hard Mode!

Please, do not perpetuate, this nonsense. It doesn't help, at all.
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Nao

  • Posts: 1996
Re: Force c-elf tribes
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2018, 03:39:41 AM »
City Elf is Armageddon Hard Mode!

Please, do not perpetuate, this nonsense. It doesn't help, at all.
Quote from: Dar link=topic=
.msg1019807

Please, do not perpetuate, this nonsense. It doesn't help, at all.
[/quote

Itís also just not true. They have weaknesses do limitations, but they  also have strengths, and niches they will dominate if you play to them. I havenít found them harder to keep alive than other races, either.
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