City elves and running

Started by MeTekillot, August 11, 2018, 10:56:44 PM

I think it would be keen if city elves got the same running benefit as d-elves, only in cities, to represent their natural adaption to scuttling about like fucking thieving scum in the narrows and crates and rooftops of the city, but suffer worse penalties than humans if they try to run in desert rooms.

City-elves already get 3 running bonuses in the city.

#1:  You can run so fast everywhere that nothing except another elf or someone using magick can shadow you.  This is hella useful, and way, way underappreciated.

#2:  In many city rooms (and basically the entire 'rinth), you incur 0 stamina loss while running.  The exceptions are like...Templar's way, Trader's Street, and the Road of Slaves. 

#3:  Even running where you take stamina loss, you lose 1 less point per room than other races.

City-elf run in the city is already more powerful than d-elf run in the desert, basically.
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Agreed. What exactly can you do to a celven run to make it even better? Short of tripling the size of all cities, so moving fast and with little stamina loss is useful for sake of getting from point A to point B.

I can understand giving celves a racial climb skill. At first I thought celves would always pick guilds that have that skill already, but now I dont even know anymore.

The problem with city elf run, is that there are tons of npc soldiers, often blocking all major intersections. You will, more often than not, run INTO them during your escape, because you move so quickly, they don't have time to rush at you. The instant subdue -> resist roll -> instant/double (FOUR attacks instantly, if npc is dual wield) -> dead means it's more of a risk, than a benefit. You will never be better off running in a city, as a city elf, than sneaking or walking. A brisk walk is strictly superior for a broad daylight escape, codedly, than running, as it lets you "run" past the guards instead of right into a coded insta-death.

I have been stopped in Allanak, and even Luirs, and interrogated, by players... asking why my elf is "running away". City elves may be natural runners, but most players have almost no concept of elves and naturally assume, if you run in the city, it's because you're a criminal, even when there's echos all over, in most cities and towns, that say there are elves running around, because they're elves and elves like to run around. However, running around, as a city elf, in a city, is most likely going to net you a lazy players gank, because you've provided the local pcs the thinnest excuse to assume you're on the run, which will, in practice, never be questioned. Maybe theme appropriate, but, very shitty for the player playing the elf, I would think.

It would be more practical, to just have all elves, have the same general "better runners", in or out of a city, than the current, confusing mash up, where city elves are bizarrely even LESS capable of travel on foot, than races who are historically mount-bound travelers. An elf, any elf, even with garbage stats, should be at least capable of running most terrain better than a dwarf, who has tiny, stumpy little legs, and a probable genetic history of depending on animals to carry them around.

The system, as of now, feels very gamey and designed to force city elves to stay within a city for the sake of it, in a game where travel tends towards being very important for most broad styles of play. The docs say there is only one elven race, but in practice, city elves and desert elves ARE treated as if they're completely different species by people in game, and rightfully so. They even talk about, and treat each other, as if they're completely different species.

It's all very strange, and nonsensical. And gamey. Very gamey. Eliminate the base inequities to make them one race, or change the docs so as not to mislead people, who take it at face value.

Or, alternatively, split all races into "city and desert", where city versions don't get ride, skin, or take heavy penalties to travel, whilst desert varieties can never attain city stealth, or whatevers, since they're deserty instead. That sounds preposterous, I'm sure, but that is basically, exactly what is going on with city elves. And it is, imo, preposterous, as there is no practical reason why only elves would suffer some kind of long-term disability from city living, where as absolutely everyone else, is immune to it.
"Mortals do drown so."

Quote from: Vex on August 12, 2018, 06:39:54 PM
Or, alternatively, split all races into "city and desert"

So much is already split like this already... I'll take any other option than this.
Lizard time.

I'd hear justifications for laying it exclusively on elves, then.

I don't disagree, it would be obnoxious, and make no sense, yet that seems a "fair" compromise, don't you think? It makes no sense that a species who takes pride in their athleticism, to such a degree where they would prefer, literal, certain death to the shame of hopping on a beetle, and living to see another dawn, would be the species who, living in a city, the same as every other species, who historically are beast-bound for travel, is the one that cannot keep up with some dwarf wearing, quite literally, hundreds of pounds of obsidian armor and weapons, that would weigh as much as a small moped.

Classes replace guilds, and soon subclasses will replace subguilds. It's a good time, I think, to look at city elves, and how they can have a more meaningful place in the game. My cause, here, is not to drag you down with me, or to request stupid high stats or different, yet equal imbalances. I'm asking, rather plainly, for people to take a look at the inadequacies, and reconsider if they're justified today, or if they were ever justified in the first place.
"Mortals do drown so."

August 12, 2018, 07:28:15 PM #6 Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 07:31:08 PM by Synthesis
Running as an elf is useful in the city if you think someone may be following you, not to get away from NPC soldiers.

If you just spent 30 minutes hanging around somewhere where folks might have decided to shadow you, running 10 or 15 rooms is guaranteed to lose a non-elf shadow.

If you're about to go do something that you don't want anyone else to witness, you can run a few rooms here and there...same thing.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: SmuzI come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: VanthSynthesis, you scare me a little bit.

If you want it ... build it. Don't ask for it to be given to you.

Up until recently the elf game was pretty strong in the rinth (props to you, sharps, mad props), then they fell apart when some key individuals got scragged. Sooner or later they'll rise again. The Guild operates in similar fashion. Their power waxes and wanes with the skill/charisma of the players involved. Some leaders run these operations like secretive criminal societies, and others run them like an outlaw biker gang. Just got to line up a concept with the leadership and then it goes well for awhile.

As for coded protection, what does that even mean? I've been murdered many times by other players no matter what cloak I wear.

A lot of the elf problems are only related to Allanak. If you want to play in Luir's there's not a lot of IC hatred towards elves and you'd find you're involved in more. In Red Storm even less so, and heaven knows I'd LOVE to see more action in my favorite hive of scum and villainy.

In Allanak you run into problems whenever you play anything out of the mainstream if you walk southside. Mutant? Breed? Ugly woman? It's off to the cuddler if you don't bow fast enough or show to the Templar how useful and cooperative you could be. And I'd never change that. :)



Running 10-15 rooms can also be accomplished by flee self, Synth. And I can't really build new code features or changes, Miradus. God knows we dont have 2x as many dwarves as elves because of their rich roleplaying potential.

Ah, another city elf thread. Like getting your second-favorite cup of coffee in the morning that you haven't had for a while, fresh and hot. With eggs from your favorite chicken whose status has been downgraded because she is getting into the flowers recently. (This is a thing today.)
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gorgio: someone who is not romani, not a gypsy.
kumpania: a family of story tellers.
vardo: a horse-drawn wagon used by British Romani as their home. always well-crafted, often painted and gilded

August 13, 2018, 06:46:27 AM #10 Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 06:49:04 AM by Heade
Quote from: Vex on August 12, 2018, 07:15:26 PM
I don't disagree, it would be obnoxious, and make no sense, yet that seems a "fair" compromise, don't you think?

Not everything in Arm is fair, and that is by design. Magick, for instance, has never been "fair". The entire Karma systems isn't "fair" because being awarded Karma is a completely subjective event that is administered OOCly by humans, and thus inherently flawed.

City elves not being able to ride was INTENDED to keep said elves pretty much city-bound. The city is their world;Their vast wasteland that they endeavor to learn every nook and cranny of. City elves should be the proverbial masters of their domain, not through codedly outrunning everyone, but from an RP standpoint, literally learning every street, alley, rooftop hideaway, etc. They are supposed to be difficult to play. Despite being the second-most populous race in Allanak, they're still considered second-class citizens because the FIRST most populous race says so, and apparently has the backing of the almighty. Their situation is a carefully crafted RP construct, and not meant to be "fair".

Are there things that I think should be more "fair" about armageddon? Sure, absolutely. I think the Karma system is a bit draconian, and I'd like to see it revamped to give people Karma automatically over time if they haven't been flagged as breaking the rules. If you play mostly independents, as I do, then it's far too easy to fall through the cracks for 20 RL years and barely get any Karma.

Equal access to be able to play or try out different races/classes? Absolutely. But regarding equality between the races, no. That's a different beast altogether.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

In my opinion, elves should be able to blow humans out of the watersand(?) when they're running in their element. I believe what Synthesis about city elf running in the city, though I have never played a city elf, because I don't fucking hate myself that much, but them having just a slight more endurance and being able to run faster isn't really that much of a boon when their entire elven pride bullshit is on being the best runners in the world or whatever. I'd also suggest giving c-elves journeyman climb, since climbing is an actual thing and general traversal is something they take huge pride in.

Quote from: MeTekillot on August 13, 2018, 01:44:38 PM
In my opinion, elves should be able to blow humans out of the watersand(?) when they're running in their element. I believe what Synthesis about city elf running in the city, though I have never played a city elf, because I don't fucking hate myself that much, but them having just a slight more endurance and being able to run faster isn't really that much of a boon when their entire elven pride bullshit is on being the best runners in the world or whatever. I'd also suggest giving c-elves journeyman climb, since climbing is an actual thing and general traversal is something they take huge pride in.

C-elves already get 3 extra racial skills:  steal, haggle, and allundean.  The only thing they really need on their skill/score/stat list is a tribe.  Besides, all the classes city-elves are likely to take already get climb to advanced, and jman climb is just a trap to make you feel like you can climb, so ginka can claim another soul.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
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Quote from: VanthSynthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Quote from: MeTekillot on August 13, 2018, 01:44:38 PM
though I have never played a city elf,

C-elf city run is an amazing ability. People who don't use it short-sell it all the time.

Or, people know all about it and don't use it/sell it for what it is, because it isn't all that special, due to it's extreme niche of usefulness.

If elves could run in stealth, or parkour climb-checks (basically, pass climb checks at city elf run movement speeds), I would see it being much more useful than it is now. At least then, provided city elves were given journeyman climb as a racial to take advantage of it, they could realistically take advantage of the elven tent towns on the rooftops.
"Mortals do drown so."

Yeah they're codedly less powerful. They're fun to play for a bit of challenge, and rp-wise if you have a clanned tribe you can rely on them much more than other clan mates which in a weird way is kind of a boon? Not a coded boon though. I like Vex's take on it there though, being able to sneak run or some sort of climbing advantage would be a cool buff.
yousuck

Quote from: Vex on August 18, 2018, 03:05:34 PM
Or, people know all about it and don't use it/sell it for what it is, because it isn't all that special, due to it's extreme niche of usefulness.

If elves could run in stealth, or parkour climb-checks (basically, pass climb checks at city elf run movement speeds), I would see it being much more useful than it is now. At least then, provided city elves were given journeyman climb as a racial to take advantage of it, they could realistically take advantage of the elven tent towns on the rooftops.

You can run while remaining hidden.

You can run while climbing.  You can even run while climbing while dual-wielding and remaining hidden.

If you're good enough.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: SmuzI come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: VanthSynthesis, you scare me a little bit.

I'd be interested to know how.

I've never been able to run whilst stealthed, except when shadowing someone else, who is running. I have never noticed a different in climbing delays, when running into a climb, either. Not that I've spent a terrible amount of time running towards cliffs, mind....

Still, am very interested.
"Mortals do drown so."

Quote from: Vex on August 18, 2018, 08:44:11 PM
I'd be interested to know how.

I've never been able to run whilst stealthed, except when shadowing someone else, who is running. I have never noticed a different in climbing delays, when running into a climb, either. Not that I've spent a terrible amount of time running towards cliffs, mind....

Still, am very interested.

I'm sure it has a great deal to do with your skill level, your agility, and any +hide items you're wearing.

If you're a dwarf capped at advanced hide...you probably ain't gonna make it far.

A c-elf at master hide with exceptional agility can make it 20+ consecutive rooms without breaking hide, while running.

Encumbrance may also be an issue.  It seems to me that increasing encumbrance basically gives you a global penalty to all agility-based skill checks, so you know...if you want to hide-run and you're a c-elf capped at advanced, you may have to ditch everything except a knife and your skivvies.

But like I've said before...advanced hide seemed like it was garbage even for a c-elf with vgood agility.  So...hide-running may be only the province of d-elves and miscreants, now (or maybe certain stalker/magickers).
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: SmuzI come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: VanthSynthesis, you scare me a little bit.

That... doesn't sound right. I've had characters previously go from sneaking to running from players who were trying to kill me, and a nearby hostile NPC mob spotted me and moved into the same room as me. I was hidden before I started running, which broke it allowing the NPC to see me, and it was only like 5ish rooms. This was on a high agi celf with master sneak/hide in the rinth.
yousuck

Quote from: yousuff on August 19, 2018, 04:32:39 PM
That... doesn't sound right. I've had characters previously go from sneaking to running from players who were trying to kill me, and a nearby hostile NPC mob spotted me and moved into the same room as me. I was hidden before I started running, which broke it allowing the NPC to see me, and it was only like 5ish rooms. This was on a high agi celf with master sneak/hide in the rinth.

I just tested it and made it 30 rooms before I intentionally broke hide to get an aggro.

Don't know what your problem was.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: SmuzI come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: VanthSynthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Could have been poison, magick, encumbrance.
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gorgio: someone who is not romani, not a gypsy.
kumpania: a family of story tellers.
vardo: a horse-drawn wagon used by British Romani as their home. always well-crafted, often painted and gilded

Some npcs have high scan. Like militia.

Also, every time you move, you make a roll on whether, or not you keep hide. The odds of failure might simply be higher if you move faster.