1st new class major issue I see.

[Namino]

Scripts or something else, it all boils down to the same thing.  NPCs need to be different than PCs, and typically gaining power from that difference, in order to be a challenge for PCs in combat at the high end.  And by challenge I mean more than just "wow that was an endless wave of X" and more actual good chance of the PC dying.

I couldn't agree more. While we've solved the issue of dying en masse to scrabs, I think we need to find a way to capture that feeling of going into a fight that could go either way.

My experience might be different than others, but once you get over the 'hump' in Armageddon, seeing 'a sinewy rantarri arrives from the west' goes from an oh shit moment to a 'ugh now I have to wash the blood off'. Now that people are starting halfway over the hump, I'm hoping we can recapture that ohshit moment so people who want that experience can go find it. Just don't put it right next to Allanak or we just have the scrab issue again except now it's G-rank scrab or whatever.

I said it was probably for another thread but I'm going for it. The problems with mobiles with scripts, in my testing, is their scripts do not respect player defense the way they ought to. This has consequences for both player validation as well as immersion. Player validation is dampened because it feels like no matter how hard you train, mobiles can just cheese you with their scripts and no prior training montage can alter the match-up. Victory or defeat is determined by RNGesus when it comes to how spammy the mob is feeling. I had a kryl hit me with spines NINE times in a single engagement, 12 damage average per spine = ~ 108 damage. 0 damage from its normal attacks because my defense was high enough to reach 100% evasion. Sort of invalidates the feeling of character growth when it has no impact on script storm.

The problem with immersion is that, for example, mekillots. You may be a character who can dodge mekillot claws with high degree of certainty. But its script is a bite attack. Due to scripts having limited interaction with defense, the mekillot bite hits far more reliably on high defense targets. The issue is that this cannot be explained ICly -- why you can anticipate claws all day long but a bite is this heat seeking missile that you cannot anticipate.

I'm happy to spin this derail off into a different topic. I'm always interested in discussing potential constructive tweaks and I think with the new classes the need for more critical commentary regarding player vs NPC combat is going to become paramount.

[WithSprinkles]

Scripts or something else, it all boils down to the same thing.  NPCs need to be different than PCs, and typically gaining power from that difference, in order to be a challenge for PCs in combat at the high end.  And by challenge I mean more than just "wow that was an endless wave of X" and more actual good chance of the PC dying.

The problem with immersion is that, for example, mekillots. You may be a character who can dodge mekillot claws with high degree of certainty. But its script is a bite attack. Due to scripts having limited interaction with defense, the mekillot bite hits far more reliably on high defense targets. The issue is that this cannot be explained ICly -- why you can anticipate claws all day long but a bite is this heat seeking missile that you cannot anticipate.

So.. Mekillot attacks be like?



Sorry! I won't derail anymore!

[Delirium]

The problems with mobiles with scripts, in my testing, is their scripts do not respect player defense the way they ought to.

So much this. I can see an argument for AOE attacks being harder to avoid, but those kryl scripts are a huge pet peeve of mine. We should probably make a new thread though.

[Armaddict]

I'm...confused.  Didn't you state earlier in the thread that there was a very perceivable difference in starting ability of the new classes to mitigate the grind feeling?

Now you're saying that at most, the difference is attainable in less than 10 hours.

This is not a complaint or a 'gotcha', this is me receiving mixed messages, likely from some other tidbit of information I missed along the way.

[Brokkr]

There is a difference.  It is not from offense and defense alone.

[MeTekillot]

Are there class differences in combat ability besides just the typical number run of offense/defense, skills, and stats?

[daughterofauset]

The only new class I've actually played is artisan. I don't know what, if anything, they are missing from old school merchant guild, but I am pretty damn happy that you don't have to hit the old forage branch to get any useful and interesting craft skills. That alone is enough to get a big old thumbs up from me, but the merchant was always my favorite of the old guilds, and this seems a step up from that in that you don't have to manufacture a reason to forage to get to any of the crafts I liked.

[Dar]

The only new class I've actually played is artisan. I don't know what, if anything, they are missing from old school merchant guild, but I am pretty damn happy that you don't have to hit the old forage branch to get any useful and interesting craft skills. That alone is enough to get a big old thumbs up from me, but the merchant was always my favorite of the old guilds, and this seems a step up from that in that you don't have to manufacture a reason to forage to get to any of the crafts I liked.

Would you keep the same opinion knowing that if you didnt add 'custom crafter' subguild, you wont be able to MC any of your crafts?

[daughterofauset]

Yes.

Said artisan character actually wound up with that subguild explicitly /to/ be able to master craft.

Am I less than thrilled that in theory this let's any guild with a crafting skill make custom crafts? A bit. But with that said, my first character was made in 2006, and I love crafting... But I have never once actually had a custom item in game even with dozens of maxed out merchants under my belt. So for me, its a moot point and literally does not keep me from enjoying crafter's at all.

[Synthesis]

I'm...confused.  Didn't you state earlier in the thread that there was a very perceivable difference in starting ability of the new classes to mitigate the grind feeling?

Now you're saying that at most, the difference is attainable in less than 10 hours.

This is not a complaint or a 'gotcha', this is me receiving mixed messages, likely from some other tidbit of information I missed along the way.

I rolled one of the new "mixed" classes, and its starting combat ability is basically the same as its old equivalent class, with the exception of starting with parry, which very quickly gives you much, much better defense.  I'm not noticing much of a difference beyond that, but I did get a pretty shitty stat roll.

I guess I'll have to check back in after playing a combat-heavy class with good stats.

[roughneck]

I'm...confused.  Didn't you state earlier in the thread that there was a very perceivable difference in starting ability of the new classes to mitigate the grind feeling?

Now you're saying that at most, the difference is attainable in less than 10 hours.

This is not a complaint or a 'gotcha', this is me receiving mixed messages, likely from some other tidbit of information I missed along the way.

I rolled one of the new "mixed" classes, and its starting combat ability is basically the same as its old equivalent class, with the exception of starting with parry, which very quickly gives you much, much better defense.  I'm not noticing much of a difference beyond that, but I did get a pretty shitty stat roll.

I guess I'll have to check back in after playing a combat-heavy class with good stats.

Uh-oh. Synthesis is playing a Miscreant. Put all your coins in the bank.

[Wday]

After testing ICLY and watching closely an old class of many days played can not compare to a brand new-ish new character in combat at all. Maybe give the old class a chance to pick a new class without having to kill off the character so it's playable?

[Delirium]

Honestly... what's not playable about the same classes we've been playing for 20+ years?

They're a little less immediately powerful? Meh. Play it to the hilt anyway, you'll eventually die or store regardless.

[Aruven]

I like the idea of a little less grind, for my time and the RP.

I've only recently rolled one of the new classes, TBD on the variance between a legacy or that on my end.

This whole thread is interesting for me, because it took me years of play to find the fine line between RP and the way combat actually works out. For instance, getting into a fight one on one for example. Some people RP out like that's it, you're either going to win or lose. There's emoting, there's talking, and someone dies or someone shows mercy. OR, stats matter even further because one or both players aren't taking hits. They're fleeing out between swings, throwing, coming back in, fleeing out, and its pure combat using the whole range of skills in the skill list.

I had always been of the opinion that the storytelling came first, the stats were just a guideline for how confident or able your character played out whatever combat they engaged in. After some years I shifted my combat roles over in approach once I started to learn just how powerful skill levels made a long lived character vs a new one. I had never been a hardcore PK type and usually my first real instance of combat back in the day would result in me dying, fleeing, or it being some byn like zerg RPT where me and 10+ people were annihilating the same target. 

I like the changes simply because guild sniffing is reduced at the current time to a certain extent in some ways, though as always that'll change as time goes on.

TLDR: How heavily does the class change influence RP and the gameworld ultimately, happy for the progression and changes, evolved my focus around the mechanics of the game.

[Aruven]

And to X-D's (Welcome back!) original observation ;

As more of a storyteller and less of a PK type ultimately i've never failed to find an npc creature or race that wasn't capable of absolutely destroying me in any situation. I see the merit of the concern though and it'll be interesting to see how it plays out !

[Sunburned]

I think the most important consequence of this change (specifically, lifting the floor on off/deff) will be that serial combat-character players will see the need to find skilled opponents in other players - as opposed NPCs - to see their characters reach higher ends of proficiency.

More can be done in this regard, but I think this is an appropriate start.

[Synthesis]

Second take:  combat proficiency advancing much faster than normal, even with garbage stats...against mobs, anyway.  It's to the point where even with my weapon skills at novice, I'm concerned that it may be impossible to train them up much more via mobs/NPCs.

[yousuff]

I think the most glaring oversight is the fact the soldier class doesn't get city scan/listen and only gets subdue to a level of journeyman. If it were up to me, I'd lower archery/crossbow to advanced, give them ride to advanced, buff their subdue to at least advanced, and give them advanced/master scan/listen.

For a soldier in the city to actually does his job, likely working vs the city classes, eg enforcer, miscreant, infiltrator, all of which get sneak/hide to a minimum of advanced; and the fact they get no way to counter this is a farce. Also hack/riposte should branch off of parry, duel wield or twohanded, not a weapons skill as to get them to advanced is near unheard of. Also considering a soldier (at least if obeying Allanaki soldier NPC logic) tries to use non lethal force firstly (subdue) by trying to emulate them with only a journeyman level of skill you'll find yourself an ineffective, at best, soldier. The ability to ride is a bit iffy, if it's felt to be too much I reckon it's alright to sacrifice it to play a city-bound soldier which is probably standard. To be fair I'd also give them fair stamina regen too considering it's a trait I'd expect from a soldier, similar to the scout guild.

Edit; Just to add, soldier as is, is a straight downgrade from fighter with the ability to fletch, craft weapons and bandage far from making it up. Their two defining skills (hack/riposte) are also locked behind weapon skills branching making them near impossible to ever actually see.

[Synthesis]

The typical soldier in the AoD is not a policeman.

If you want to be Eliot Ness, you should take an appropriate extended subguild.

That being said, I agree that the "Soldier" class is pretty weird.

[Sunburned]

Reiterating the point: any branching from weapon skills (enforcer and soldier) is a flaw in the skill tree, IMO, because weapon skills progression currently is dysfunctionally capped at low level unless in extremely contrived conditions.

[Brokkr]

And you would be pretty much wrong on that point.  Because part of what we did when we did the new classes was move some of the data into a database, from flat files.  Which allowed us to set custom branch points, rather than have them be per a formula that applied to all skills.

Which has been done, for all the enforcer and soldier weapon skills that currently branch into something else, for months now.

[yousuff]

Would staff be willing to disclose what level of ability must be reached before these skills can be branched then? Not to seem demanding or anything, but perhaps it should have been disclosed that a journeyman level or whatever needs to be reached in a skill before it branches considering the transparency in the branching helpfiles now available, assuming the point of that was to put new players on an even playing field with regards to knowledge about skills and the nuances of the game's skill progression

[Sunburned]

And you would be pretty much wrong on that point.  Because part of what we did when we did the new classes was move some of the data into a database, from flat files.  Which allowed us to set custom branch points, rather than have them be per a formula that applied to all skills.

Which has been done, for all the enforcer and soldier weapon skills that currently branch into something else, for months now.

Glad to hear it. Thanks for clarifying!

[Brokkr]

I guess it is a level playing field now because no one knows?

There wasn't a good way really.  Most are like they used to be, unless there were going to obviously be a pain point.  If it seemed reasonable for it to not be a pain point, I dropped the branch point.

Enforcers have a ton of power if they branch their weapon skills, so it is still high.  Just below the point warriors branch advanced weapon skills.  Soldiers, on the other hand, don't face too much of a struggle.

[Sunburned]

I guess it is a level playing field now because no one knows?

There wasn't a good way really.  Most are like they used to be, unless there were going to obviously be a pain point.  If it seemed reasonable for it to not be a pain point, I dropped the branch point.

Enforcers have a ton of power if they branch their weapon skills, so it is still high.  Just below the point warriors branch advanced weapon skills.  Soldiers, on the other hand, don't face too much of a struggle.

I can appreciate that soldiers have less of a climb.

I think my persisting concern about enforcers is based on my characters as a sample: I pretty much only play long-lived-ish combat characters, and I haven't had a character get beyond journeyman weapon skills in years. In my last character - who I presume would be more relevant because he lived after Nergal's weapon skill code changes - he reached journeyman in his weapon skills relatively early in his lifetime, and never really moved beyond that point, even with 15+ days of playtime after reaching that point and developing into a significant combatant in every other domain. And that's been pretty typical in my long line of combat characters.

That's clearly anecdotal, and its not my intention to be contrary. I just tend to me quite the monomaniac in terms of my mundane combat characters, and I can't really know any of the other data points.

And I do recognize that starting at apprentice for weapon skills changes the equation somewhat.

I'll continue my play-test, and I suppose that will tell me more.