Mundane Subclass Feedback

[sleepyhead]

I'm not worried that there won't be a sufficient quantity of CCs. I'm not complaining because I want there to be more fancy custom doublets for Lord Whatshisface. I would just like it so that people who want to be able to CC can have the flexibility with their concepts that they used to have.

[Heade]

Even if they could not mastercraft through special app, I would agree with Alesan that the game does not need dozens of new MC's a year.

It's about the roleplay, not really the items themselves. It's about a dedicated, lifelong crafter being able to provide another PC with something unique, in an expression of their mastery of their craft, in order to facilitate interaction, value, and friendship IC. In a world where people constantly express OOCly their problem with the IG economy, and how bribing people with sid is so absurdly difficult because no one needs it, custom crafts remain something rare, and so they hold their value, despite IG sid inflation. They can be used as a trump card bribe, or gift, that few other PCs can offer.

The problem is, many people who don't play merchant PCs don't understand their role, and how they fit into the game world. They don't want to play them because heavy mercantile's suck at doing all the things that they, themselves, enjoy about the game. And so, they often undervalue the things that are important to the crafting role. The ability to create custom items is one of the greatest tools in a merchant's arsenal to engender a sense of loyalty, or at least value from another PC. Because, both IC and OOC, people recognize the sort of time commitment and effort that is put into a custom craft. So, when you use one to give another PC something, it is a big deal. When you dedicate your custom crafts to the furthering of a GMH goals, you are a valuable asset.

And merchants NEED to be valuable to other PCs. THAT is their survival mechanism. You get go have that "master" flag next to hide, flee, parry, dual wield, etc as your mechanism of survival. Heavy Mercantile PCs require that they be valuable to OTHER PCs who have those skills, in order to survive. That's how they work. So, by taking away their strongest tool to that end, it puts them in a place where they aren't particularly valuable to anyone, but also have few survival skills of their own.

You know, in many instances, with the new heavy mercantile classes, I'd give back their modicum of jman weapon skill, just to have the inborn ability to custom craft instead. That custom craft ability will likely contribute more to a Dune Trader's survival than low jman piercing weapons will.

[Narf]

Even if they could not mastercraft through special app, I would agree with Alesan that the game does not need dozens of new MC's a year.

It's about the roleplay, not really the items themselves. It's about a dedicated, lifelong crafter being able to provide another PC with something unique, in an expression of their mastery of their craft, in order to facilitate interaction, value, and friendship IC. In a world where people constantly express OOCly their problem with the IG economy, and how bribing people with sid is so absurdly difficult because no one needs it, custom crafts remain something rare, and so they hold their value, despite IG sid inflation. They can be used as a trump card bribe, or gift, that few other PCs can offer.

The problem is, many people who don't play merchant PCs don't understand their role, and how they fit into the game world. They don't want to play them because heavy mercantile's suck at doing all the things that they, themselves, enjoy about the game. And so, they often undervalue the things that are important to the crafting role. The ability to create custom items is one of the greatest tools in a merchant's arsenal to engender a sense of loyalty, or at least value from another PC. Because, both IC and OOC, people recognize the sort of time commitment and effort that is put into a custom craft. So, when you use one to give another PC something, it is a big deal. When you dedicate your custom crafts to the furthering of a GMH goals, you are a valuable asset.

And merchants NEED to be valuable to other PCs. THAT is their survival mechanism. You get go have that "master" flag next to hide, flee, parry, dual wield, etc as your mechanism of survival. Heavy Mercantile PCs require that they be valuable to OTHER PCs who have those skills, in order to survive. That's how they work. So, by taking away their strongest tool to that end, it puts them in a place where they aren't particularly valuable to anyone, but also have few survival skills of their own.

You know, in many instances, with the new heavy mercantile classes, I'd give back their modicum of jman weapon skill, just to have the inborn ability to custom craft instead. That custom craft ability will likely contribute more to a Dune Trader's survival than low jman piercing weapons will.

I agree with the idea that the heavy mercantile needs to be special. Honestly, there's just not as much a difference between having an advanced craft and a master craft in comparison to a lot of other skills. I played a long lived merchant a couple years ago and the only reason to even bother raising your craft skills past high journeyman was to save on material costs or mastercraft. Compare that to stealth or combat skills, which give much larger payouts for mastering them.

That said, I don't think mastercrafting is a good way to make them special. It takes forever to use, takes some system mastery that new players aren't likely to have, and contributes to item bloat in the game.

I'm of the opinion that new items should be added to the game on an 'as needed' basis, not as a perk to characters. However, that means that the heavy mercantile classes need something else to set them apart from the dabblers.

[evilcabbage]

is item bloat an actual problem, for the game, or just an invented problem for yourself?

[Heade]

That said, I don't think mastercrafting is a good way to make them special. It takes forever to use, takes some system mastery that new players aren't likely to have, and contributes to item bloat in the game.

Yeah, I don't see "item bloat" as any sort of problem. More and varied items don't do anything negative to the game. It only makes the world more varied and "alive" feeling, by having people legitimately wearing completely different things, rather than preset "groups" of items you see every character of X type wearing. Just the same as subclasses. There is no such thing as too many.

The more personal someone's style and skill combinations can be, the better, in my opinion.

I still think, just having an on/off flag set at character creation for custom crafting, costing 1 karma in the current karma system would be ideal, with automatic acceptance of 0-karma player special apps that ONLY request that flag on an otherwise completely mundane PC. Separate custom crafting from classes/subclasses entirely. No class/subclass gets it by default at all. It'd strictly be something players would either have to pay karma for, or spec app for.

I guess, if that system was implemented, you could keep the 0-karma custom crafter option available, and see if people still select it at all, or if people vastly prefer to use the karma/spec app option.

[mansa]

is item bloat an actual problem, for the game, or just an invented problem for yourself?

It's been stated that the staff don't want to create items that are near duplication of other items in the database.  Item creation is low on the priority list next to helping facilitate stories.


https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53794.msg1012788.html#msg1012788
There's something here:
Brokkr:
We've talked about GMH having a certain number of crafting slots per month, or perhaps in consultation with their Storyteller and Admin.  The nice thing is that their crafts tend to have more potential to drive plots, rather than simply being one off vanity pieces not tied into some sort of plot.  We haven't firmed things up, and a large part is going to be seeing what the GMH Admin wants to do in this regards.


https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53794.msg1013609.html#msg1013609
Brokkr:
These restrictions are in place to limit staff workload, just as they have been since they started.

Request reviewed by your Storyteller.  Request reviewed and OK to make the item from the Admin for the appropriate group.

then

Storyteller makes the item. Storyteller makes the craft recipes. Storyteller submits item and craft recipe for approval.  Admin reviews and approves item and craft recipes.  Admin makes the craft recipe go live.

The high quality of writing and world fit you see in our items requires something a bit more than a single person looking at what you submit and then making it so.

This was really a good thread, ( https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54064.0.html ) and I feel like we're going in circles with our arguments right now. 

[Nao]

I think one of the problems here is that most items in the database aren't accessible to players. They don't know the recipe, have no way to find out when the item is not in game other than trial and error, and with up to five ingredients per craft? There are trillions of possible combinations and you're just not going to find the recipes with more than two (or three, if you get really lucky with common ingredients) of ingredients by trial and error.

[Eyeball]

It would be interesting to see some data on how many recipes use 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 items.

[Delirium]

We really need to just find a way to release craft recipes to the playerbase. Ideally this would be in some kind of list format visible to those with the skill (and, if applicable, clan) to unlock them. Keeping craft recipes secret causes more problems than it solves, and it means countless objects get lost once their creators are gone.

[only_plays_tribals]

Releasing the craft lists could very easily sate a lot of mercantile appetites who could gobble up however many hundreds of recipes they didn't know about, and the player base starts asking for items already custom crafted they haven't ever seen, but which sound appealing/made of rare/interesting materials/raw curiosity/perfect plot related item that already exists

[Riev]

One of my favorite MC plotlines was centered around a noble demanding a new, custom armchair so that he could lord it over people at meetings.

It had to be made of duskhorn leather. Be stuffed with cotton. Scrab shell carved and gilded arm rests. Ash tray for TOTALLY NOT SPICE (because he was Southern).

The Byn was engaged to assist the House Hunters in finding the materials. And not just "a" duskhorn pelt. They needed a dozen in total, to make sure that it was all high quality, no holes, etc. It wasn't just "a" scrab shell to carve. There was room for failure. The cotton had to be picked, or bought, in Tuluk for the stuffing and it took a LOT of cotton.

A lot of work CAN go into Mastercrafts. On the flip side, I once submitted a mastercraft that I emoted three times, was just a simple carving, and was of no use except it went into ANOTHER master craft as an ingredient.

I'm ambivalent. I want the ability to custom craft something if I pick a heavy mercantile character. But I shouldn't be allowed to "just submit" because its been a month.

[roughneck]

One of my favorite MC plotlines was centered around a noble demanding a new, custom armchair so that he could lord it over people at meetings.

It had to be made of duskhorn human leather skin. Be stuffed with cotton magicker scalps. Scrab shell Carved skulls and gilded arm rests (made of child arm-bones). Ash tray Cup-holder for TOTALLY NOT SPICE elven-blood filled sipping chalice (because he was Southern).

There. A MC I would get behind.

[Heade]

We really need to just find a way to release craft recipes to the playerbase. Ideally this would be in some kind of list format visible to those with the skill (and, if applicable, clan) to unlock them. Keeping craft recipes secret causes more problems than it solves, and it means countless objects get lost once their creators are gone.

I wouldn't want to see the entire item recipe database released wholesale, even through a skill. I wouldn't have a problem with, say a single recipe with 3+ items required being released(PER CHARACTER) randomly via a command once crafters hit master level in a crafting skill, but I don't know if that would sate the people who are asking for this.

For plenty of others, including myself, there is appeal in the arcane and discovery-based nature of the current crafting system. Making this change would also eliminate the ONLY way indie crafters have to protect their recipes from duplication, which is keystone items. By making the recipe for those keystone items available via a list, it completely eliminates the possibility of an indie protecting their crafting recipes at all, which I don't like. It takes a fair amount of time, patience, and preparation to make a keystone item to protect one's recipes, so I think that should be something that's still possible to do.

I know that on an OOC level, some people hate that these crafts are difficult to duplicate, and often disappear with the player who created them, should they stop playing. But, this is an instance where what makes sense IC, and what some people want OOCly don't mesh. From an IC perspective, it makes sense to make your items proprietary in some way, so that it's something only you can provide. It's a competitive edge. Unfortunately, that -also- means that OOCly, your recipes likely won't be easily discovered by other players. I don't have a huge problem with that, personally. I, as a player, know any of my old recipes from past crafters, and thus I can keep those recipes alive on future crafters that I might make.

Perhaps a solution to this would be an on/off flag on new custom crafts when they're submitted. Basically, ask the submitter if they'd like their craft to be included in this craft list idea. If they do, great! There's one recipe added to the list that would display IG. But if they don't, that recipe will never display in the list. Then, default all prior custom crafts to have the flag off. This would slowly build up the list of displayable craft recipes without just being a huge dump of recipes that the creators didn't want to be that easy to discover.

[Delirium]

Meh. What's the point of "adding" an item to the game if nobody else can ever make it when your PC is gone?

As for keystone items, shrug, make a player clan or be part of a clan if you want your stuff to be exclusive.

Yeah, it'd be nice to be able to keep other PCs from making your shit if they've never seen it before, but that's a flaw in the crafting system, and the benefits of opening up the crafting database, to me, outweigh the possibility that someone else might make your diamond-encrusted breastplate.

The only time I've ever wanted to keep an item proprietary is when it was supposed to be part of an exclusive group, and in that case, we have a player clan system. Does it need work? Yes, you should be able to actually make your own specific player clan. Does it still (sorta) work as is? Yes, it does.

[Marauder Moe]

I remember once reading an idea where if you did ">craft widget", the game might hint at what could be made with other ingredients.

Like it could say "you might be able to make something else out of a bone widget if you had a sandstone sprocket" or maybe "if you had more ingredients, you might be able to make a bone and sandstone thingamabob".

[Brokkr]

I, as a player, know any of my old recipes from past crafters, and thus I can keep those recipes alive on future crafters that I might make.

If you discover the recipe IG.  If you are simply using your OOC knowledge, you are crossing the line between OOC and IC knowledge.  Don't do that.

[Synthesis]

I, as a player, know any of my old recipes from past crafters, and thus I can keep those recipes alive on future crafters that I might make.

If you discover the recipe IG.  If you are simply using your OOC knowledge, you are crossing the line between OOC and IC knowledge.  Don't do that.

Dude, there is literally nobody that is going to "find out IC" their list of 1300+ craftable items they've recorded over decades of grinding it out with crafter PCs.  Especially when some of the items are like..."no, no...I know it's just a wooden club, but it has to be the THICK branch, not the LARGE branch...*WINK WINK*"

[Heade]

Meh. What's the point of "adding" an item to the game if nobody else can ever make it when your PC is gone?

As for keystone items, shrug, make a player clan or be part of a clan if you want your stuff to be exclusive.

Yeah, it'd be nice to be able to keep other PCs from making your shit if they've never seen it before, but that's a flaw in the crafting system, and the benefits of opening up the crafting database, to me, outweigh the possibility that someone else might make your diamond-encrusted breastplate.

The only time I've ever wanted to keep an item proprietary is when it was supposed to be part of an exclusive group, and in that case, we have a player clan system. Does it need work? Yes, you should be able to actually make your own specific player clan. Does it still (sorta) work as is? Yes, it does.

Yeah, I disagree. And, the point of adding items that other players/PCs can't easily duplicate is, quite simply, roleplay. When every crafter in the game can make the same things, it devalues ALL of them. There is literally nothing different, at that point, between crafter A and crafter B. So, if crafter A has a personality that rubs you the wrong way, there is no hesitation, no concern about eliminating them from the equation and simply going to crafter B for all the same things.

The current system allows for the continuation of plots, the survival more interesting character personalities, and a real differentiation between characters. That long-lived custom crafter who has been around a RL year or two? Yeah, they probably know several custom recipes that the new 1 month old Master crafter doesn't know. If you suddenly provide the entire craft list to all the players, nothing separates the usefulness of that old hand from that 1 month new crafter.

I, as a player, know any of my old recipes from past crafters, and thus I can keep those recipes alive on future crafters that I might make.

If you discover the recipe IG.  If you are simply using your OOC knowledge, you are crossing the line between OOC and IC knowledge.  Don't do that.

Well, not exactly. As people gain OOC knowledge of the gameworld, it allows someone to have a background for their character that coincides with, and thus makes sense with that OOC knowledge. For instance, if I OOCly know the terrain of Zalanthas very well, I may make a character that is well-travelled and has been to a lot of these places in their background. It's impossible to ensure that OOC knowledge never affects future PCs of players who have gained it. Otherwise, people would act like noobs forever, and constantly run out and die to scrabs or spiders on every new outdoor PC they ever made. And I only use it as much as I believe makes sense for a particular character. But it -does- happen. Remember, we're often playing characters who have lived for 20, 30, or even 40 years before we physically start running them around the gameworld. In that time, they've seen and done things.

As for applying this to item recipes, sure, they can discover them IG, or have been the apprentice to someone else who passed that knowledge along to them. But as things stand, to pretend that no players are utilizing recipes they discovered on past characters is silly. We all know that's not the case. No one intentionally fails to know what items go into making a basic arrow on subsequent characters once they OOCly know how to do it.

[Brokkr]

What I am saying is that if you the player mastercraft the diamond encrusted breastplate using Gaj plate, two diamonds, a strip of leather and, strangely, a quirri tail with one character, and circumstances are such that the recipe/item dies with the crafter.....you don't get to come back a year later with a different character and do that recipe.

It is more like learning that the PC Lord Valika has a secret elven lover with one character and using it with a subsequent character with no way for that second character to learn IG than it is knowing the general area of the Grey Forest.

[Synthesis]

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing people not to re-introduce things they spent time on, especially when a craftable item is like one of the only long-lasting impacts you can have on the game, as a player.

Further...what do you accomplish by enforcing this rule?  What's the point?

[Heade]

What I am saying is that if you the player mastercraft the diamond encrusted breastplate using Gaj plate, two diamonds, a strip of leather and, strangely, a quirri tail with one character, and circumstances are such that the recipe/item dies with the crafter.....you don't get to come back a year later with a different character and do that recipe.

It is more like learning that the PC Lord Valika has a secret elven lover with one character and using it with a subsequent character with no way for that second character to learn IG than it is knowing the general area of the Grey Forest.

And what I'm saying is that, if there is a particular way of hardening wood that I mastercrafted on a particular character, there is nothing to say that another NPC in the world didn't discover that same process, and pass it along to my new PC that I made a RL year later. It's a process IG that works. The nature of the crafting recipe system, and knowing them, is such that, while other players or PCs may not know recipes, they are, in fact, discoverable by both those PCs and the NPCs in the world. So if I OOCly know a recipe, it isn't a stretch to play a character who has apprenticed under someone who knew such a recipe, either. Sure, the knowledge might be rare, and that's good. But it doesn't have to be non-existent.

It isn't anywhere near the same as creating a character that knows another specific PC's secrets. We're not allowed to include knowledge or background interaction with other PCs without prior staff approval. We're allowed to submit backgrounds where we've interacted with NPCs or vNPCs in our background, and this is specifically akin to that.

[seidhr]

If you customcraft something, and you're in a clan, it's probably safe to assume that other clan members would have been taught the recipe.

If you're unclanned, you can go out of your way to introduce the recipe to the general populace of the game, and get it into the ecosystem.  If you do this, I don't think there would be a problem with you coming along a year later and making your item on another PC.

But if you don't do this, there's no way that your PC would know about this particular item - afterall, all the other hundreds of PCs don't - so why would your PC suddenly know this?  It makes zero sense. 

[Vex]

I think one of the problems here is that most items in the database aren't accessible to players.

Each heavy crater could be sent 5x random crafting recipes from the DB, with their character approval e-mail. I know that I, at least, keep a .txt file, with all the recipes I discover, and I'm positive others do, as well. It'll help to keep recipes from being completely lost, over time, with constantly new recipes being release, or "re-discovered", for as long as there are people playing heavy craft pcs.

Meh. What's the point of "adding" an item to the game if nobody else can ever make it when your PC is gone?

As for keystone items, shrug, make a player clan or be part of a clan if you want your stuff to be exclusive.

I think the issue, is that if you custom craft an item, as an independent, GMH people rip it off and start to push it as their own design. Or other independents. And that, in and of itself, would be fine, except that GMH people have hard coded protection, against being ripped off in the same manner, so the only protection you have, is making your recipe stupidly obscure, and not selling it to anyone, or whatever.

What is needed, is some kind of "for the lifetime of this pc" protection, that your recipe cannot be duplicated by anyone, so people feel less pressed, into making their recipes from items from every far flung corner, and obscure hole, the Known has to offer. I feel that, it is a bit disrespectful, to be ripping off other players time and effort, in such a manner.

You cannot expect people, not to try to being gamey about it, because sitting down to create some special memento for a group of friends, only to have someone else see it, analyze it, and sell five of them to every shop in the game, must be a really crappy feeling. Its one of the major reasons, I've continued to put off making a craft focused pc... because I would be pretty sore, when it inevitably happens.

"Make a player clan" is not an answer, and indeed, if it was, once that clan tanks, all those recipes would become inaccessible to anyone, worsening the problem of recipes being lost and going unused.

Tbh, "shrug" and "make a player clan", are pretty flippant responses, to a legitimate issue. Aren't you supposed to be an example, of proper posting etiquette?

If you discover the recipe IG.  If you are simply using your OOC knowledge, you are crossing the line between OOC and IC knowledge.  Don't do that.

How would you even police this?

If I'm in my apartment and I type "craft X Y Z", and it returns some item I'd custom crafted a year prior, am I exploiting ooc knowledge and intentionally gathering mats for it, or did I just happen to have the materials necessary, to make the item? This is, other than analyze, how I figure out many, many recipes, by mashing components together and see what clicks.

How do you approach me about it, without it looking like some kind of witch hunt? And...

Further...what do you accomplish by enforcing this rule?  What's the point?

[Brokkr]

I'd rather make recipes much easier to get, than have to police it.

Some folks may take staff perspective and use it to reflect on their own perspective, and how that translates into role play. Some people may become defensive because they may not like, feel it disadvantageous, or disagree with that perspective. Some will "meh".

[Dar]

But if you don't do this, there's no way that your PC would know about this particular item - afterall, all the other hundreds of PCs don't - so why would your PC suddenly know this?  It makes zero sense.

I have to mention. When I played my last merchant, I did a "LOT" of recipie hunting. A process that required me to have 5 pieces of every weirdo object that is commonly, or uncommonly used for crafting. And I have found some surprisingly awesome items that were definitely someone elses MCs. Yet were so rare, everyone assumed I was the one to MC them.

My point is that if a PC discovered an obscure recipie, it is theoretically possible. It gets a little finicky when it was you yourself that MCed it a rl year ago.

Mayhaps there could be a rule of some kind about it?
You can rediscover MCs you made only after 1 rl year has passed and you need to have 5 days played per each ingridient to a maximum of 25 days