Mundane Subclass Feedback

[Brokkr]

Should aggressor and berserker get ripose and hack?

No, they shouldn't.  The get the same combat skills as Bruiser and Lancer.  They don't get riposte and hack for the same reason Bruiser and Lancer don't get sap and backstab.

[Brokkr]

A lot of stuff.

As I stated, subclass skills will be relative to class skills.  No subclass is going to get a skill at the same level as the best class.  You are really trying to comment on the dynamic, but commenting on particular skills, which isn't useful as feedback.  If  you want to comment on the dynamic, comment on the dynamic.

You might also keep in mind that Advanced does not equal Advanced.  There is a noticeable difference between the low end and top end of the range.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Alright, as a closing statement regarding the dynamic altogether (although my points on individual skills still stand) :

I think the lukewarming of everything to a muddy moddled state of advanced all across the board with no divots or high points - across guilds too, not just subguilds - is a bit of a... Meh thing. There should be downfalls, there should be high points. Most of the 0 karmas shouldn't have been buffed.

With karma regen in place now, it's important to think if something is /worth/ your investment. And a lot of the 2 karma guilds just are not. Especially Cutpurse, Slipknife, Reaver, Marksman, Protector, and Swordsman.

I believe my flinch reactions to the individual changes are still valid and should be considered, but this is my statement on the proposed change on the whole: Who stands out now? Who is weak and who is exemplary? If a two karma has the same capabilities as a 0 karma, if things no longer do what they say they do but rather sit in the same lukewarm tub, if everything is now varying shades of mauve, where are our eyes drawn but nowhere?

I respect the work of staff and I respect the effort they're putting into renewment and balance, but there's such a thing as overbalancing, and this - combined with the lukewarming of guilds - looks like a seesaw that's designed to never bounce.

[Heade]

You might also keep in mind that Advanced does not equal Advanced.  There is a noticeable difference between the low end and top end of the range.

We're not privvy to the range, though. All we see in the spreadsheet is the descriptor, and it looks like extended subguilds took a massive nerf. Many of them seem like a "why bother" type deal, particularly when you consider that you pay 2 karma for them.

I don't know how much karma the average player has here, but I've been playing on and off since the nineties(on a different name prior to 2000s), and I only have 1 Karma. So I feel like these extended subguilds are a bit meh with the nerfs.

Yes, there were combinations possible previously that were VERY good, like slipknife on enforcer, creating a class that had master sneak, hide, and backstab. But in creating that character, someone had to spend karma on it and hyper-specialize their character into that. Is it powerful? Sure. But I don't think that's a problem. Arm has had powerful, imbalanced stuff for decades.

I think I see what you're doing with stealth skills and scan skills, but it's going to take a long time for existing legacy characters with high scan to cycle out of the game. Before making a change like this, I'd personally suggest giving it a bit more time as-is to see how much of a problem these combinations really are. Kneejerk Player reactions of "OMGERD DAS OP~!!!" without any real testing don't necessarily mean it should be changed.

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't. I just think we need more time to tell, and that with these changes, many of the extended subguilds aren't really attractive for 1 or 2 karma that(at least to me), seems incredibly difficult to accrue.

PS/Derail: Can people still get karma from Imms watching them and such? In 15 years, I've got 1 playing mostly unclanned. We gotta beg? I'm begging. lol

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

You might also keep in mind that Advanced does not equal Advanced.  There is a noticeable difference between the low end and top end of the range.

We're not privvy to the range, though. All we see in the spreadsheet is the descriptor, and it looks like extended subguilds took a massive nerf. Many of them seem like a "why bother" type deal, particularly when you consider that you pay 2 karma for them.

I don't know how much karma the average player has here, but I've been playing on and off since the nineties(on a different name prior to 2000s), and I only have 1 Karma. So I feel like these extended subguilds are a bit meh with the nerfs.

Yes, there were combinations possible previously that were VERY good, like slipknife on enforcer, creating a class that had master sneak, hide, and backstab. But in creating that character, someone had to spend karma on it and hyper-specialize their character into that. Is it powerful? Sure. But I don't think that's a problem. Arm has had powerful, imbalanced stuff for decades.

I think I see what you're doing with stealth skills and scan skills, but it's going to take a long time for existing legacy characters with high scan to cycle out of the game. Before making a change like this, I'd personally suggest giving it a bit more time as-is to see how much of a problem these combinations really are. Kneejerk Player reactions of "OMGERD DAS OP~!!!" without any real testing don't necessarily mean it should be changed.

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't. I just think we need more time to tell, and that with these changes, many of the extended subguilds aren't really attractive for 1 or 2 karma that(at least to me), seems incredibly difficult to accrue.

PS/Derail: Can people still get karma from Imms watching them and such? In 15 years, I've got 1 playing mostly unclanned. We gotta beg? I'm begging. lol

This. The evening-out of everything to a flat surface of seemingly-the-same Advanced just makes it like... "What's the point?". Not even "what's the point in picking 2 karma over 0 karma", I mean, that too, but just "what's the point" in general. It makes everything so bland-looking. So dry. To us, advanced = advanced. And for all intents and purposes, it might as well be, because let's be honest, the range isn't that extreme.

Also, regarding your derail: karma reviews are now open, look it up.

[Brokkr]

Between what I've said in my post, knowing which skills went up (green) and which ones have gone down (red), you have an insane amount of data for anyone halfway decent at analytics.

For example, you know that Slipknife went from Master to Advanced.  But you also know that Rogue and Cutpurse went up within the Advanced range.  And you can make an educated guess that all three of them have the same level of stealth skills based on what I posted. 

I am unsure of where folks are getting the idea that things are leveling out, between 0 and 1/2 karma.  0 karma stealth skills, for example, are clearly worse.  Sure, there are some secondary skills or skills with some specific code quirks, like ride, that are the same.  But that is the exception, rather than the rule.  So I am confused as to what is being looked at when comments are made that they are essentially the same.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Wait, so I'm confused. Do you /want/ us to go into analytics and pick things apart individually, or is that unhelpful? Do you want broader statements or more precise reactions?

I'm not sure I get what you're actually going for in terms of feedback requesting here. We've given both, but precise stuff doesn't address the whole picture, and stuff that addresses the whole picture is imprecise?

I'm not trying to be a crap here. I'm /really/ not. But I don't know what you're /looking/ for, and it seems like anything given doesn't apply to what that is?

I'm withdrawing from this topic because I don't believe I can trust myself to keep in it without making a statement that'd get me banned, but I fully still endorse my prior points, even in the face of these new statements, and I fully encourage other users to post their own opinions too.

[Synthesis]

I'll just limit comments to the 2-karma extended subguilds.

Berserker, Lancer, Bruiser, and Aggressor are all virtually pointless subguilds now.  I guess if you're married to chopping or slashing and the disarm skill, and you really want to play a stalker, this would be useful.  Realistically speaking, though, the primary classes that get disarm, kick, and bash are the only ones who should be using them, unless you're talking strictly PvE.  Only useful for going around dropping scrub-tier gith and scaring noobs away from you.

Cutpurse could be useful for a few primary classes.

Outdoorsman is solid.

Protector is useful if you want to make your combat shit-tier primary class slightly more survivable (e.g. if you wanted to take your pilferer, adventurer, or craftsperson into the Byn or the AoD).  Also gives you bandage, which you can't get anywhere in the city-stealth column...so I could see Pilferer/Protector or Fence/Protector being useful only for adding the parry and bandage skills.

Slipknife is okay.

I don't see the point in Marksman.  Who is going to actually use a crossbow, a bow, a blowgun, and a sling contemporaneously?  Gives you bowmaking and fletchery, which are pretty good for raking in 'sid, but there are probably better choices.  I'd rather take Outdoorsman, because you only need one archery skill, and 90% of the time, you can easily pay your bills with just the skinning skill.

Cavalry could be pretty useful.  The ability to tame and hitch two mounts can net you some serious, serious dough with very little risk, especially if you're a top-tier combat primary (and you know what you're doing).

Swordsman is a much better choice for making your Allanak-based shit-tier combat class more survivable.   Having an advanced weapon skill and advanced parry, with the location-based slashing weapons bump out of the box sounds pretty useful.

I don't see the point in Reaver, honestly.

[Cind]

In my opinion, imbalance is a part of the game, and the reason you're afraid of witches, among other social and cultural points.

I would kind of like to see staff 'test' and get players to test certain batches of subguilds every once in a while, perhaps full guilds also, since they are pretty new especially. This way, as things change (I'm sure the usefulness of some skill sets will change as player numbers rise and fall, as well as the sort of things they get into) you can fix anything that is really a problem.

I can see why the combat extended subguilds would be considered pointless now, though. Everyone and their mother in Kadius has weapon skills and everyone else is doing better than that. If they had something else going for them though that isn't available now, like a boost to endurance or wisdom or something like that, you know just rename the subguild and make that a thing. Since mercenary subguilds get a boost to endurance, the code for this already exists. From a story standpoint, someone could make a character who is particularly strong and hardy, or who is particularly quick and wise, if they are willing to give up their subguild for it.

[Synthesis]

Cavalry is pretty weak for 2 karma. Many subguilds already give adv ride. Heck, for 2 karma I would expect master ride and at least journeyman dsense, alongside everything else already listed.

Disagree.  You aren't just getting advanced ride.  You're getting two-mount hitching and mount taming.  That being said, if you aren't planning on regularly traveling to places where mounts can be tamed, you're probably better off going with the 0-CGP caravan guide if you want advanced ride and two-mount hitching.

Likewise, Reaver and Swordsman aren't much to write home about.

I agree that Reaver is kinda pointless.  Swordsman is great for fourth and fifth-tier classes.  It bumps your skill-based combat ability up to third-tier, and you get to keep all the crafting and trading stuff.

And for a one karma, Master Woodworker gets too much. I would say lower club making and axe making to advanced but keep mastercraft capabilities on that?

Strongly disagree.  The last time I checked, axe making and club making had very few craftable items, and they weren't terribly valuable.  Also, Master Woodworker doesn't get haggle like the rest of the mastercraft extended subguilds.  Once you get your haggle skill up (if you know what you're doing), it's incredibly powerful, so losing that is a massive downside to Master Woodworker.  Also, there's no wood supply anywhere near the place where wood is valuable, so you're going to have to give other PCs a cut of your loot, or make really long trips north and back to get the wood yourself.  Sounds like a giant pain in the ass to me, unless you're specifically intent on joining House Kadius.

Slipknife is now underpowered, honestly. The changes are fine for if it stayed one karma. I would keep hide and sneak at master for two karma.

Slipknife previously was so good it was difficult to come up with a reason not to roll every ranger as a subguild slipknife, if you were going mundane.  (Pretty much the same with Assassin/Outdoorsman.)

I don't see why Cutpurse was changed.

Cutpurse seems fine.  Not 100% sold on (advanced) stealth, but the other stuff adds a lot of utility.

Recluse is ridiculously underpowered. One whole karma just for the ability to quit wild and forage wild? I'd drop its dsense to journeyman and make it a 0 karma, or add adv forage.

Wilderness quit and wilderness food foraging are extremely powerful.

Protector is now a bland sludge of "I'm advanced like the other guys". At least master rescue and guard, if not shield use, would be good.

Meh.  If your primary class doesn't already have rescue and guard, you probably shouldn't be rescuing or guarding anyone.  #justsayin.  The only reason to pick protector is to get parry and bandage.  So it's really only good for Pilferer, Fence, and Dune Trader.  My only concern is that parry might not be terribly useful with only jman weapon skills...but hey, it's a whole lot better than nothing, especially if you spend a lot of time in a no-law zone.  If I wanted to buff up a fourth or fifth tier class, though, I'd probably go with Swordsman.

Master Trader should get master value. No question about that IMHO. I understand no master haggle but MT barely even gives much. Either master value, or bump it up to two karma and give it master value, master haggle, AND mastercrafting flags for all crafts you can currently make. A high price buyin for the new MC changes would balance the board and give a better option than just sludging your subguild slot away for Master Crafter. I still believe Heavy Mercantile should get MCing but that's neither here nor there.

Master Trader is a weird one.  It was useful under the old class system for warriors and rangers, but I'm not sure advanced ride and haggle (the two most useful skill additions) are really that great now, because the classes that get skinning already have one or the other.  Value is a silly skill.  I'm not sure why you're so up in arms about it.

All of that being said...this is virtually all theorycrafting, because I've only played one of the new classes, and it's been like...2 years since I played a mundane subguild. (Holy crap, it really has been 2 years...my last PC was approved August 3, 2016.)

[WarriorPoet]

Grebber should get low- or mid-capped skinning to go with hunt and the other wilderness skills it already gets.

[MeTekillot]

Are we going to be retroactively moved to the new skill lists and levels if our subguild is changed? If so, will we have the option to change subguilds?

[Brokkr]

Yes and no.

[MeTekillot]

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Those who already have capabilities that are limited by these changes (ex: got to master or skill-ceiling in a skill that is now less or much less), are you intending to limit those people or draw back their unlocked capabilities, or cut down their skills? Or only folk who haven't breached the new limits yet?

[Heade]

Between what I've said in my post, knowing which skills went up (green) and which ones have gone down (red), you have an insane amount of data for anyone halfway decent at analytics.

For example, you know that Slipknife went from Master to Advanced.  But you also know that Rogue and Cutpurse went up within the Advanced range.  And you can make an educated guess that all three of them have the same level of stealth skills based on what I posted. 

I am unsure of where folks are getting the idea that things are leveling out, between 0 and 1/2 karma.  0 karma stealth skills, for example, are clearly worse.  Sure, there are some secondary skills or skills with some specific code quirks, like ride, that are the same.  But that is the exception, rather than the rule.  So I am confused as to what is being looked at when comments are made that they are essentially the same.

Ok, let me clarify my position: Not everyone who looks over the helpfiles or website outlining what these classes get is going to read this thread. So from the standpoint of someone who has not seen this thread, Advanced = Advanced, and that makes many of those classes not look appealing. And I -still- don't know exactly -where- on the spectrum of advanced many of these classes fall. I can speculate, but since we don't see the numbers, speculation is all it is.

Like I said, from the perspective of a player who hasn't seen this thread, Slipknife seems kind of pointless when looking at what it gives you for 2 karma. I'll go through each of the others individually in a subsequent post.

[Brokkr]

There is no way codewise currently to do revamps and keep legacy as is other than recreating subclasses for those impacted, which is messy.

Also, keep in mind there are 17 positive changes and 4 negative changes to normal subclasses.  There are 16 positive changes, 8 negative changes and one skill removal (to address player feedback that majordomo was a hodgepodge) for 1k subclasses. For 2k classes 14 positive changes, 6 negative changes and one skill removal.

Overpowered subclasses like slipknife and tailor had to be addressed.  There was no desire for power inflation to bring other subclasses up to their power level.

[MeTekillot]

There was no desire for power inflation to bring other subclasses up to their power level.

I don't see the problem with a tiny bit of power creep, as there's been a pretty, uh, steep decline in player-accessible power over the years. If people are more powerful out of the box and with the work they do after getting out of the box, aren't they more inclined to do risky shit like get in a knife fight at the Gaj and other fun and exciting things?

[Molten Heart]

.

[MeTekillot]

I believe Brokkr said above that skills will be retroactively have their ceilings lowered or raised as appropriate, or removed altogether if that is the case, but if I'm mistaken I apologize.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Synthesis]

Between what I've said in my post, knowing which skills went up (green) and which ones have gone down (red), you have an insane amount of data for anyone halfway decent at analytics.

For example, you know that Slipknife went from Master to Advanced.  But you also know that Rogue and Cutpurse went up within the Advanced range.  And you can make an educated guess that all three of them have the same level of stealth skills based on what I posted. 

I am unsure of where folks are getting the idea that things are leveling out, between 0 and 1/2 karma.  0 karma stealth skills, for example, are clearly worse.  Sure, there are some secondary skills or skills with some specific code quirks, like ride, that are the same.  But that is the exception, rather than the rule.  So I am confused as to what is being looked at when comments are made that they are essentially the same.

Ok, let me clarify my position: Not everyone who looks over the helpfiles or website outlining what these classes get is going to read this thread. So from the standpoint of someone who has not seen this thread, Advanced = Advanced, and that makes many of those classes not look appealing. And I -still- don't know exactly -where- on the spectrum of advanced many of these classes fall. I can speculate, but since we don't see the numbers, speculation is all it is.

Like I said, from the perspective of a player who hasn't seen this thread, Slipknife seems kind of pointless when looking at what it gives you for 2 karma. I'll go through each of the others individually in a subsequent post.

Yeah, my biggest hangup with the whole thing (classes and subclasses) is stealth capping at advanced.  I played a city-elf warrior/rogue once (steal, sneak, and hide capped at advanced), and I vaguely remember the skills not being reliable enough to risk using on PCs.

From what I understand, on a scale of 100, advanced ranges from 60-79.

Slipknife seems fine, to me.  Advanced backstab is good enough that you'll hit -almost- every time on a normal backstab attempt, and the stealth aspect has been dropped to be on par with other stealth subclasses.  But again...it's theorycrafting on my part, because the class matrix is so new.

[Heade]

OK, had some time to mull these over. I do see where your design decision is going with this, Brokkr. I understand that stealth skills currently not particularly valued at "Advanced" right now should theoretically be more valuable in the future under this design because far fewer classes will have master scan. I've taken that into consideration below.

Having thought about it and Arm's history, I guess my biggest issue is that I don't really know why some of these are so heavily Karma-Gated. Throughout Arm's history, Karma was typically used to keep rare things rare (magic, Muls, etc), to prevent rampant griefing by immature players, and to ensure that players entrusted with difficult racial or societal concepts understood the world enough to portray them effectively. The vast majority of these extended subguilds don't fall under any of those potential categories, so I don't know why they cost 2 karma at all. With the recent karma compression, I think we could safely fit all subguilds and extended subguilds into 0-1 karma options. Below is what I'd like to see:

0-Karma
Apothecary - Moved to 0-Karma. No reason to gate this. Very little to abuse, so there is no reason to Karma-Gate it.
Brute - Drop Armor repair to apprentice and raise Chopping Weapons to Journeyman (There are already plenty of subs that get armor repair and this fits more with the idea of a brute)
Nomad - Moved to 1 Karma
Physician - Gone. Replaced by Apothecary.

1-Karma
Cavalry - Lose the ability to tame, raise Ride and Charge to Master. Let Cavalry be the combat-focused riding subclass.
Grebber - Raise forage to master.
Nomad -  Add Tame mounts, wilderness quit, and forage wild. Let the nomads be the wilderness-based traders, living off the land. Let Cavalry be the combat-focused riders.
Recluse - Gone. Merged with Nomad.
Reaver - Drop Armor Repair, Add Parry. (As Synthesis pointed out, the primary reason for these combat subs is to add combat utility and surviveability to the lowest tier main classes. Parry makes that something useful. Most of the classes who'd want to take this have armor repair already.)
Lancer & Bruiser - Drop Disarm, Add Parry (As above. They need a defensive boost to be at all useful.)
Berserker - I'd leave this the same, not because I think it's useful, but rather as an option for someone who wanted to play a completely offense-based "Berserker". Maybe add Hack.
Spy - New Extended Subguild that gets Sneak, Hide and Listen at Master, Advanced Scan.
Poisoner - New ESG that has poison and brew at Master. That's it, that's all they get.

All other 2-Karma Options moved to 1-Karma options - With the Karma compression that happened along with the regenerating Karma thing, 2 Karma is a lot for any of these options and doesn't align with Arm's historical reason for having Karma to begin with.

I'd also like to add my voice to those who lament the necessity of a subguild to custom craft items. I'd much rather see it be left as a 0-karma option, but added to be included in the heavy crafting classes automatically.

I'm actually excited about a lot of the changes to Arm, but I think the above changes would be best for the game and allow people the flexibility to flesh out their characters better.

[MeTekillot]

Heade raises some points I had actually planned to make a thread about in the future.

[Blink]

There is no way codewise currently to do revamps and keep legacy as is other than recreating subclasses for those impacted, which is messy.

Understood.  I can live with losing a skill and with having a lower cap on a skill I hadn't used yet.  However, it's going to be hard to adjust to a lower cap on something I had already mastered and which, naturally, is my most useful skill at the moment.  :-P  I'm hoping there may be some wiggle room on cases such as mine for a manual skill bump.

I believe the skill is something I could have branched on my legacy guild but I don't think I would have been there yet and I have no way of knowing what the guild cap on that skill is.