Author Topic: Mundane Subclass Feedback  (Read 1945 times)

Brokkr

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Mundane Subclass Feedback
« on: July 03, 2018, 01:44:44 PM »
I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes.  I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass.  I am looking for your feedback in this thread.  What subclasses are the best?  Which are the worst?  Why?  Are some subclasses missing something?  Do some subclasses do too much?  Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills?  Anything else relevant you can think of.

Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:

  • This is for mundane subclasses only.  Please no magick talk.
  • There will be 0 karma subclasses.  There will be karma subclasses.  Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
  • Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.

Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill.  Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill.  Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.

Veselka

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2018, 01:49:58 PM »
Just to clarify, the 0 karma subclasses are the ones like “bard” and “mercenary” correct?
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Molten Heart

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2018, 01:54:51 PM »
Currently there is no subguild offering master bowmaking.

Maybe some kind of extension of the current archer subguild which offers master bowmaking. Maybe let if offer archery, crossbow use, and sling use to some degree.

(edited to change "advanced bowmaking" to "master bowmaking")
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 02:05:04 PM by Molten Heart »

Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2018, 01:56:57 PM »
Do you mean skill level, or like an extended sub that does not offer custom crafting of bows?  There are a handful of skills that don't have custom crafting offered through extended "Master" subclasses.

Molten Heart

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2018, 02:04:17 PM »
I mean an extended subguild allowing master crafting of bows. I guess that'd also include custom crafting since that's the direction things are going.

Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2018, 02:20:30 PM »
At least one subclass should offer Master Scan.

1 CGP subclasses that gives Master Listen (Majordomo + Master Trader) (edit)
1 CGP subclass that gives Master Hide (Slipknife)

None that give Master Scan that I've noted unless I missed something.



« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 03:59:58 PM by only_plays_tribals »

mansa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2018, 02:20:40 PM »
::EDIT::
I didn't realize it was for karma subclasses as well.  I thought it was just for non-karma subclasses
::EDIT::


REFERENCES:
0 Karma:
1 Karma:
2 Karma:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 06:43:43 PM by mansa »
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Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2018, 02:44:10 PM »
Ok, Mansa wants me to get rid of more existing subclasses.  Noted!

tapas

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 02:53:43 PM »
There are six sneaky subguilds.

Thief
Conartist
Thug (added just for sap)
Slipknife
Cutpurse
Rogue

Only one subclass gives pick. Rogue at journeyman. For that you also get advanced city sneak/hide, watch, scan, climb.

Maybe add another subclass that gives journeyman pick, pickmaking and some crafting skills. Like a pilferer-lite? With no sneak, no climb, no listen etc?


sleepyhead

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 03:48:10 PM »
I think a subclass that offers scan would be nice. Especially with a lot more people hiding at lower levels in the new classes, a lowish-level scan sub would be helpful to round out certain concepts.

number13

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2018, 06:10:25 PM »
Just asking out of curiosity: why was scavenger and acrobat removed? (i know it happened a long time ago, probably.)

Hauwke

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2018, 06:39:26 PM »
I think a sub-class that offers the new combat skills might be nice, in the same vein as pilferer-lite, we could go with fighter-lite, so the new skills that had work put into them will see frequent use.

mansa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2018, 06:44:21 PM »
Ok, Mansa wants me to get rid of more existing subclasses.  Noted!
  I updated my post.   Thanks for the callout.
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Brytta Léofa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2018, 08:27:07 PM »
Outdoorsman is the go-to choice for a city/generic dude who wants to not suck outdoors. What would a 2-karma city/rogueish subguild look like? Should there be an equivalent? (Or is outdoorsman overspendy with the new classes in?)
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mansa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2018, 08:44:23 PM »
I made a thing.

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuelAW2dNA8Cg2i_LessvQbWvxNk

It's the current subclasses and skills, taken from the helpfiles.
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Cind

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2018, 07:10:47 AM »
I've always had a beef with the fact that no subclass gets clubmaking or axemaking, which would go pretty good together in the same subclass. Bowmaking too, like someone said earlier. Despite the fact that axes and clubs are widely used in both combat and other uses (when people try to kidnap my characters, they usually go for clubs) practically no one is able to make them.

I use master tailor a lot, but am a little confused by the fact that they get tanning, which hints that they are a House-directed subclass/are for people with a crafting background, but they don't get toolmaking. I understand this was probably left out for a reason, but 1. You can fall back on toolmaking with sandstone and basalt if you're really in it deep and in Allanak, and 2. people who start out as a class other than merchant (yes I know, outdated) probably will need tools in order to either tan or sew for a living to begin with. Leveling up a craft skill without the help of a House takes money, but less money if you have an average tool. The old classes did not begin with much money unless they were a merchant, primarily to outfit you with clothes, armor and a weapon or two. Honestly? It was hard for me to have anything in Storm that wasn't a ranger/tailor or master tailor. I have to choose between tools and being able to work most of my cloth. Advanced crafting is fairly unreliable. Doable, but when you're relying on it to survive, it feels a little like you are wasting materials. (Of course, this can be mitigated with an awesome tool or a pair of decent tools, but not everyone knows that, and I often forget it myself. I also didn't know you could hold a tool in each hand and add their abilities together, after about 10 years of playing almost nothing but crafters and witches.)

I want to say I'm real excited about the new changes and do not play long-lived characters so I will probably get to get into the action at some point.

We need a brewer subclass, who begins with the skill and can have it to master. Maybe a cooking boost, maybe a handful of elvish, like to apprentice. Otherwise nothing. Trust me--- the most popular subclass in the world is coming.

Just asking out of curiosity: why was scavenger and acrobat removed? (i know it happened a long time ago, probably.)

Scavenger was changed to the extended subguild grebber, probably because it was the only food-greb subguild at the time and everyone had it. I don't know why acrobat is gone.
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Cind

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2018, 07:17:36 AM »
When you are choosing a class to look at on the website drop down links, where is Artisan?
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JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2018, 08:12:15 AM »
Good eye. Soldier is listed twice and no Artisan.
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RabidMuffins

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2018, 11:00:31 AM »
I noticed that there is no longer an Apothecary sub-class
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CodeMaster

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2018, 11:33:21 AM »
I'm stoked for the new classes.

I think the subclasses are due for renaming, especially given the new class names.  I look at "help subclasses" and see we have (or have had) "craftsperson" and "crafter", "hunter" and "adventurer", "pilferer" and "thief", "mercenary" and "soldier", "nomad" and "scout", "raider" and "outlaw"...   in several of these cases it feels like the subclasses have the canonical sounding name ("thief", "hunter"), which seems wrong to me.  Imagine a new player trying to make intuitive sense of this.

If we had a subclass revamp, I'd love it if they spoke more to the flavor of the role and the background of the character than to raw skills.  Nomad is a great example of this - you get access to languages and an accent.  Mercenary is kind of like this - you start with alcohol and pain tolerance.

I'd love it if subclasses didn't determine skills so much as other flavor enhancements like languages and accents, unique objects, unique tattoos and scars, additional (secret) biography entries, and other small tokens that fleshed out the lives of people in the game world and the systems in place.

What if the gladiator subclass got access to special scars that no other subclass got access to, and maybe a token that was meant to signify that character had fought in the arena in the past (a trinket that templars may or may not take into account)?  (imo, based on title alone, gladiator should be a 1karma subclass because of the knowledge of the gameworld implied)

What if the mercenary subclass automatically started your character off in a "reserve unit of the T'zai Byn?"  If you were a member of this clan you could be brought on at an extreme discount, maybe have access to a room with the clan board readable.

What if a forester subclass started with an additional biography entry that detailed a rumor about a unique event that not everyone in the game knows about?

Or if there were a treasure hunter subclass that started with a random biography about a hidden treasure that may actually exist in the game world?  Etc.

So less skills, more story.  (The new classes have enough skills!)
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stoicreader

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2018, 12:00:31 PM »
When I search Custom Craft on the website there is a conflict of information between the first two entries. One says you need to be master the other does not.

Are the new custom crafter sub class limited to 1 entry per month?
Meh

Armaddict

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2018, 12:07:19 PM »
I'm stoked for the new classes.

I think the subclasses are due for renaming, especially given the new class names.  I look at "help subclasses" and see we have (or have had) "craftsperson" and "crafter", "hunter" and "adventurer", "pilferer" and "thief", "mercenary" and "soldier", "nomad" and "scout", "raider" and "outlaw"...   in several of these cases it feels like the subclasses have the canonical sounding name ("thief", "hunter"), which seems wrong to me.  Imagine a new player trying to make intuitive sense of this.

If we had a subclass revamp, I'd love it if they spoke more to the flavor of the role and the background of the character than to raw skills.  Nomad is a great example of this - you get access to languages and an accent.  Mercenary is kind of like this - you start with alcohol and pain tolerance.

I'd love it if subclasses didn't determine skills so much as other flavor enhancements like languages and accents, unique objects, unique tattoos and scars, additional (secret) biography entries, and other small tokens that fleshed out the lives of people in the game world and the systems in place.

What if the gladiator subclass got access to special scars that no other subclass got access to, and maybe a token that was meant to signify that character had fought in the arena in the past (a trinket that templars may or may not take into account)?  (imo, based on title alone, gladiator should be a 1karma subclass because of the knowledge of the gameworld implied)

What if the mercenary subclass automatically started your character off in a "reserve unit of the T'zai Byn?"  If you were a member of this clan you could be brought on at an extreme discount, maybe have access to a room with the clan board readable.

What if a forester subclass started with an additional biography entry that detailed a rumor about a unique event that not everyone in the game knows about?

Or if there were a treasure hunter subclass that started with a random biography about a hidden treasure that may actually exist in the game world?  Etc.

So less skills, more story.  (The new classes have enough skills!)

Like this a lot.  In my class 'approach' in the other forum, I was talking about how subclasses, as a whole, would need to be toned down.  The new classes just have a -lot- of stuff in and of themselves.  Extended subs can go the way of the dinosaur.  Normal subs can return to prevalence, with less emphasis on new skills, and perhaps more based on bumps or background.

The new guilds, themselves, are pretty good as far as skills go.  Yes, I think there are tweaks necessary, but I think ye olde 'modify it with a subclass' is going to be tremendously outdated.  What you suggest above is a good way to have them still be enriching and important, but without the pure skill consideration of them from yesterday.
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valeria

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2018, 12:31:15 PM »
To the contrary, if your play style isn't "kill stuff (city or wilderness)" there is a lot of modify it with a subclass that is going to need to go on.

I don't see the problem with having diverse subclass options. It gives people more versatility to customize to exactly what they want, to fit the character they've imagined. I'm sure I'm not the only person who uses subclasses for RP flavor instead of as a min/max tool.

The only reason I'd bother getting rid of some are if there are subclasses that no one really picks, and whose skills or flavor could be rolled into other subclasses without much effort.

worldofsand

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2018, 01:47:49 PM »
I feel very strongly that no subclass should offer master stealth or scan (none currently give master scan, but it was suggested above). Now that most classes cap these skills at advanced, getting them at master from a subclass is just far too much sheer value. That's way more than you should get from a subclass where the opportunity cost is so minimal, and it would create too much inequality between characters. Honestly, there are probably very few skills that a subclass should give at master--innocuous ones like crafts and forage are fine, but maybe not things that give huge advantages in conflict, massively improved survival, etc.

Before, four out of six classes had master scan and four out of six had master stealth. That made it far less significant to have a subguild that gave you what was probably the lowers point of master hide/sneak. Now, three out of fifteen have master scan and two have master stealth. That has made it vastly better to have. Offering it via subclass is just too much.

I think we need to avoid letting  mundanesubclasses offer huge gains in sheer power to a character. It shouldn't be something you take to make your character 30% stronger. It should be something you take to add flavor and a bit of variation, maybe some moderate perks that won't make one character dramatically superior to another of the same class. Unlike magick and races, there are no special risks, challenges or obligations with a mundane subguild. You don't have a harder time in life because you took slipknife or whatever. There are no disadvantages that justify giving huge benefits.

I'm generally not a huge fan of mundane subclasses that require karma. I'm down with races and magick requiring karma; there's a reason for that. The mundane subclasses don't really have those same reasons, it's just a pure power bump gated behind the increasingly prohibitive karma thing. One can't even argue that it's about responsible play, because nobody in their right mind could claim that you need to have played long enough to earn karma before you can be trusted to have master stealth on a raider or whatever.

We just got done discussing how new players find it off-putting that there's no real way to gain karma in any kind of timely manner. The experience is all the more souring when they know that they're not only missing out on special races and supernatural options - which anyone can do without - but also sheer power for the characters they can play. That's when it starts to feel tantamount to letting players buy stat boosts with karma.

But since we're surely stuck with extended subclasses, I think it's important that they don't make one guy's proverbial warrior way better than another's.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 02:21:41 PM by worldofsand »

Delirium

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2018, 02:14:12 PM »
I like having utility or crafting subclasses. They allow you to round out a concept. Especially the ones that offer custom crafting.

So the ones I'd say to keep are Apothecary and all the crafter subclasses.

The combat/stealth ones I'm neutral on, but I still like the idea of being able to blur the lines with unexpected abilities.
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WanderingOoze

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2018, 02:30:22 PM »
More Climb.
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hyzhenhok

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2018, 12:44:36 AM »
Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.

I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.

hyzhenhok

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2018, 12:46:50 AM »
Accidental double post. Sorry.

Cind

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2018, 03:15:16 AM »
A human, I think, should be able to know a little bit of elvish, to upper novice or apprentice, without either being a secret breed or also knowing mirrukim. Its not a big deal code-wise, but I always felt this was one of the basics that people should be able to choose, to raise a glass and ask 'Ale?' or to say Hello, Goodbye, Yes or No. Elves aren't so utterly powerless that they can't be useful or necessary to certain humans who would use their services, without including dwarves in their dealings. A Templar should be able to be 'learning' cavilish or elvish, their aides as well, House merchants, sneaky types, but the way the game works right now, branching a language might never happen, even if you spend 10,000 on lessons over several years. Having a few subclasses where the language is poor but already branched has infinite story possibilities.
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roughneck

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2018, 06:24:58 AM »
Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.

I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.

Outdoorsman is advanced archery, not mastery, and less than advanced isn't useful enough to justify CGP spend. By capping the stealth and scan at advanced, and only journeyman hunt, I think it's a reasonable 2-CGP subclass. The only thing worth consideration with this sub is that previously the lack of the ride skill in Outdoorsman was more significant. Now that other skills will be factored into riding ability, it's maybe not a big deal that this sub doesn't have that skill. Advanced direction sense is table steaks for any desert class.

As for Slipknife - master stealth is what justifies the high CGP spend, the other stuff in there isn't worth it, especially with the number of guilds that get poisoning now.

I can only think of one combo that will really piss people off - Enforcer/Slipknife or Enforcer/Outdoorsman. Enforcer/Slipknife gives a PC the combo it seems staff is trying to avoid of master stealth+master backstab, and Enforcer/Outdoorsman (if riding ability has changed sufficiently to allow them to ride effectively) will make this combo more effective in a lot ways than the Raider class.

Slipknife/Outdoorsman paired with any of the other classes isn't a big deal from a PvP standpoint. Miscreant/Outdoorsman is still worse off than a Stalker, and Stalker/Slipknife is still worse off than Miscreant in the city. 


Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2018, 11:43:01 AM »
We aren't confining ourselves to looking only at PK potential.

JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2018, 12:05:28 PM »
I've always been a fan of adding content rather than taking things away. If a subclass or extended subclass seems strong, I say just add something to the others to make them equal. With the diversity offered in the new classes, subclass synergy, imho, will be lessened to some extent for classes with similar skills, and expanded for choosing something vastly different.

Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice.  ;D
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John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2018, 08:35:22 PM »
I'm going through the subclasses to look at how they stack up against each other. I haven't played any non-karma subclass in a long time (except for Physician), but when I did I loved tailor and jeweler. So when assessing the other subclasses these are my gold standard.

Tailor
Skills: advanced in haggle, dyeing and clothworking. They can also learn toolmaking to the level of journeyman.

This is a very self-sufficient subclass. They can not only make clothes (which do require a substantial cost investment to start with) to advanced but they can sell them to advanced. If you want to play a tailor this subclass has everything you need to be completely self-sufficient.

It's also very complimentary to most classes. The only classes that you wouldn't combine this with are Artisan, Dune Trader, Fence, Craftsperson, Pilferer.

Jeweler
Skills: advanced in feather working and jewelry making. They can reach the level of journeyman in value, toolmaking and haggle

This class is less self-sufficient. It doesn't require a substantial coin investment (you can use whatever rocks you find), but it doesn't grant forage either. However unlike skills that tailor is reliant on, everyone except the heavy combat classes get quite high forage. Given the high synergy between jeweler and most subclasses, I also think it's justified in not having haggle to advanced considering most classes will find the raw materials with no difficulty.

Armormaker
Skills: advanced in armor repair, leather working and armor making. They can reach journeyman level in tool making.

This needs a small boost to bring it up to the level of Tailor and Jeweler. Like jeweler there isn't a high coin investment required. Unlike jeweler, armormakers need to risk life and limb much more commonly then jewelers do. I think moving leather working down to journeyman and putting in haggle into advanced would be appropriate. Leatherworking is a side-skill to the concept of armor making so would be more appropriate at a reduced cap.

Weaponcrafter
Skills: advanced in knife making, sword making and spear making. They also can attain the level of journeyman in tool making.

This is the worst of the crafter subclasses. If I play a jeweler, I can make jewelry. Whether it be bone jewelery or gems or feathers. As an armormaker, not only can I make armor, I can repair it and use the off cuts to make leather goods. As a weapon crafter I can make swords, knives and spears. No clubs, no axes. Armormakers aren't restricted to just helmets or hide armor, nor are jewelers or tailors.

To bring weaponcrafter up to the same level of the other crafting subclasses I'd recommend club making, axe making, sword making and spear making. Have haggle go to journeyman. That's 5 skills (same number as jeweler). They're still not self sufficient and are missing knife making and fletchery, but it does let them play the concept of a weapon crafter for the most part. Because at the moment soldiers make better weapon crafters then the crafting subclass.

My revision would make it have good synergy with any of the combat focused classes (except for soldier) just as tailor and armor maker have good synergy. even soldier might still take it for early access to the weapon crafting skills.
----
More thoughts to come later.
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Strongheart

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2018, 09:14:38 PM »
Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice.  ;D

Every PK against me has been via stealth-based characters (assassins) in someway or another. Most of them also possess one of the most powerful PK skills in the game known as blowgun_use. Master stealth/hide is essentially invisibility made invincibility.

With this in mind, they're even better now than they used to be.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 09:17:25 PM by Strongheart »
Die gedanken sind frei.

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 42
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2018, 09:57:30 PM »
Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice.  ;D

Every PK against me has been via stealth-based characters (assassins) in someway or another. Most of them also possess one of the most powerful PK skills in the game known as blowgun_use. Master stealth/hide is essentially invisibility made invincibility.

With this in mind, they're even better now than they used to be.

Only if they succeed right? If they fail, they can have their ass handed to them or be exposed. Which might as well be a death sentence.
Think of it this way. Take away their stealth and ability for assassination, what do they have? And this is coming from a person who has played maybe two assassins out of over a hundred pc's.
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Strongheart

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2018, 11:15:21 PM »
If they fail, which is unlikely because most assassins have agility as a priority stat, then sure! But that goes for any and all characters who happen to fail at the worst of times. Characters in the assassination business typically have backup plans, and versus a fighter with zero perception skills, they could get away from their failure somewhat easily.

The worst part about playing stealthy characters that I have found is that people tend to metagame when it convenient such as somehow picking you out in your day clothes despite your face being hidden away in your night clothes. And don't even get me started about how some players describe others by their sdesc such as, "Yeah, I saw a tall male with pale skin run past here." when their sdesc is "the tall, pale-skinned male".

Sure, sneak-based characters can have it rough but so can anyone else, and no one can deny the power of any of these sneaky classes. I am sort of getting off-topic here but the amount of PKs that do happen astound me. As soon as someone starts to play against say a powerful figure IG as an underdog, they are then disposed of almost immediately when they show even just a little confrontation. It makes adversarial roles boring or pointless in my opinion because that character will be grouped up on or in some way taken care of permanently.

Anyway, that's all I really wanted to say on the matter. These new classes are fantastic!
Die gedanken sind frei.

John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2018, 12:47:50 AM »
Physician
Skills: Physicians are able to reach the level of advanced in bandage, brew, bandage making, floristry and forage.

So this subclass has everything they need for their core concept, plus floristry. They are missing haggle which has a less reduced If anyone more knowledgable then me knows a good reason to have floristry, I'd recommend removing that and putting in journeyman haggle.

Linguist
Skills: Master sirihish, allundean and mirukkim. Boosted start at learning northern, southern and 'rinthi accents.

This isn't a great subguild. I'd be inclined to put bendune on there and perhaps removing the accent boost and instead give them haggle to journeyman. As it currently stands it's a great subclass for a high mercentile or spy class, but otherwise not very self-reliant compared with tailor or jeweler. Give them haggle and they're still a good choice for high mercentile classes and spying classes, but they then become an alright choice for combat focused classes.

Bard
Skills: advanced in sleight of hand. Listen, haggle, watch and instrument making to journeyman level. Bonus to languages.

This isn't a good subclass. Sleight of hand is only a good skill if you want to poison someone, attack them without them seeing, steal something and then hide it in your belt or cheat at cards. The classes that get poisoning are scout and stalker. Scout doesn't get listen so that's good synergy there, but stalker does. Also are desert-based characters really going to benefit from sleight of hand at a thematic level? Everyone else who has poisoning has sleight of hand.

Listen is good to everyone who doesn't already have it, but sleight of hand isn't because most people who have that will already have listen (only exception being Enforcer).

The only reason to have instrument making on the bard subclass was because of the Tuluki bardic circle requirements. They're no longer playable, so let's give the bard subclass skills that let them pull off the bard role.

A bard should be someone who can communicate with a wide variety of cultures. Get stories from a wide group of people, if you get found by a desert elf who wants to slit your throat, offer to regale them with a tale or a song in return for your life.

As it is anyone can be a bard. There's no actual bard-related skills required to pull off the concept. So I would say make it mirror the linguist subclass but instead of haggle, give them listen. Listen lets them overhear conversations and the language skills let them understand what they hear. This is useful to anyone who doesn't have listen or has listen but doesn't have the language skills at chargen.

Crafter
Skills: advanced in basket weaving, clay working, stone working and foraging.

So crafters only get 4 skills which is on par with tailor in terms of raw skill. But let's not pretend that basket weaving is a real skill. So that's really just 3 advanced skills. I'd give them haggle to journeyman which is a pretty potent combination when combined with advanced crafting and foraging, but it is compensated by the fact they don't have the strongest crafting skills in the game.

Archer Bowyer or Fletcher
Skills: Advanced level in fletchery, feather working and bow making. Journeyman level ability in archery, dyeing and direction sense.

This is more of a crafting subguild then an archer subguild. I would suggest renaming this to Fletcher or Bowyer. Keep all of the current advanced skills. Remove archery, dyeing and direction sense and give them haggle and toolmaking.

Hunter
Skills: advanced in ride. Journeyman in archery, hunt, skinning and direction sense.

So looking at tailor which gives you 1 key skill (clothmaking) to advanced and then supporting skills around the concept, I'd call the 1 key skill in this case Archery and then other skills to support that.

So I'd go something like this: Advanced in archery and hunt. Journeyman in skin, direction sense and ride.

Ride to advanced was powerful before the ride changes. My understanding is that weapon skills can now pick up the slack so journeyman ride is still helpful.

Bounty Hunter
Skills: Advanced in ride and direction sense. They can learn subdue, sap and hunt to the level of journeyman.

In this case I see subdue, sap and hunt as the key skills, so I would actually just reverse these. So change them to: advanced in subdue and sap. Journeyman in ride, hunt and direction sense.

Caravan Guide
Skills: Master in bendune. Advanced in ride and pilot. They can reach the level of journeyman in value and direction sense.

I see direction sense and ride as the key skills here. So I would go: Master in Bendune. Advanced in direction sense and ride. Journeyman in pilot.

Pilot can be good, but as a caravan guide you should be checking for traps and ambushes outside the caravan. Value just comes out of nowhere. Without haggle I don't see why bother.

Outlaw
Skills: Advanced in knife making, spear making, armor repair and direction sense. They can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb.

To me an outlaw's key skills are climbing and not getting lost. Climbing is great for making a get away while direction sense lets you ride into a sandstorm to lose anyone following you. Without hide, sneak isn't particularly potent to avoid being found. The other skills are more support skills.

I'd change it to: Advanced in direction sense and climb. Journeyman in spear making, armor repair and ride.

Mercenary
Skills: Advanced in ride, knife making, armor repair and watch. They can also attain the level of journeyman in direction sense. Mercenaries begin play with an increased capacity to tolerate alcohol.

With the new classes armor repair isn't such a great choice for a mercenary now. It benefits neither fighter nor soldier. Raider, scout, stalker, enforcer, infiltrator and miscreant benefit, but the desert ones don't benefit from direction sense. It makes no sense to have mercenary benefit the criminal classes most.

Instead I would suggest the following skills: advanced in scan, haggle and watch. Journeyman in direction sense and ride. Mercenaries begin play with an increased capacity to tolerate alcohol.

Again enforcer still benefits most from the subclass. But fighter doesn't get scan but does get watch and raider doesn't get watch but does get scan. I can't see a way around that to then give the subclass both. Haggle helps with looting dead corpses and getting good coin for what they have remaining (plus it's thematic to have a mercenary haggle over the price of a contract). The other skills then help support that concept. Knife making and armor repair are handed out via classes now whereas before they weren't. Otherwise other subclasses can grant that if you don't want any other skills.
----
More thoughts coming at a later time.
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Veselka

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2018, 01:03:56 AM »
That's some useful dissection. Thanks for taking the time to do that, John.
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Strongheart

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2018, 03:53:41 AM »
Agreed!
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John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2018, 05:10:49 AM »
Thanks guys. Hopefully staff find it helpful and/or others in putting down their own thoughts on what changes they want to the subclasses.

Here's a review on nomad. This was more difficult because (I did it on my phone on the bus and) the desert themed skills already capture the tribal idea so well (with the exception of not having bendune).

Nomad
Skills: Master in bendune and tribal accent. Advanced in ride, spear making and direction sense. Journeyman in haggle.

This is a flavour subclass that people are going to take if they want to play a tribal. Therefore this class should have good synergy with the desert classes first and foremost. My understanding is that accent is determined by origin city. Therefore having the tribal accent here seems redundant.

Bendune should be kept with allundean added on. Dwarves and city elves get sirihish for free because it's the most common language in their region. Fences get allundean because it is spoken by mean entire region of the Labyrinth. It's one of the most common languages in the desert and yet not a single desert class gets it. So giving it to the nomad subclass is good synergy.

I would keep direction sense at advanced. This is bad synergy, but it lets a nomad choose a city class and still have a key survival ability. To offset this I would also give bandage at advanced for raiders (who already get direction sense) which doesn't benefit the city classes. Finally armor repair at advanced would be a good supplementing skill.

For a small journeyman skill I'd keep haggle. It means all tribal characters are passable at bargaining, but it helps give them a supplemental skill and it makes sense that they'd be good at bartering rather than relying on set prices.

So in summary: Bendune at master. Advanced in allundean, direction sense, bandage and armor repair. Journeyman in haggle.

That might seem like a lot of skills. But anyone who benefits from direction sense will probably already have bandage or haggle as a class skill. So to help offset the fact most classes will overlap with nomad for one or two skills an extra skill or two has been given to them.
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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2018, 12:04:32 PM »
Forester
Skills: advanced in woodworking, lumberjacking and axe making. They can reach the level of journeyman in hunt, skinning and direction sense.

I would double down on this being a forester/Hunter type role. However where the hunter relies on archery, I'd keep them with axe wielding.

Advanced in chopping weapons and two-handed. Journeyman in hunt, direction sense and skin.

Con Artist
Skills: advanced in hide, watch and sleight of hand. They can also achieve the level of journeyman in haggle and value.

I don't understand what this subguild is trying to do. It's just bad. Thieves steal. Thugs sap. I'd give con artists pick.

So for advanced I'd give them pick and hide. At journeyman I'd give them listen, scan and haggle.

They're not going to be able to sneak into places with apartments without a class that gives sneak. But if they can convince someone to escort them past (like a con artist would) then they're good to go. Listen means they can double as a spy, but being capped at journeyman means it isn't reliable.

Gladiator
Skills: apprentices at fighting with slashing weapons. They are capable of learning kick, bash and disarm to the level of journeyman. Gladiators begin play with a slightly improved ability to withstand pain.

I think capping slashing at apprentice is a mistake. All of the crafting weapons grant advanced in a single craft, which impinges on the crafts person class. Combat should do the same for fighter.

So advanced in slashing weapons and dual wield. Journeyman in bash and hacking.

Woodworker
Skills: new subguild.

This would take over the woodworking angle from Forester.

Advanced in woodworking and haggle. They can reach the level of journeyman in lumberjacking, toolmaking and axe making.

In this case axe making grants them lumberjack related tools.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 12:07:32 PM by John »
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On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2018, 12:53:46 PM »
I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes. I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass. I am looking for your feedback in this thread.  What subclasses are the best?  Which are the worst?  Why?  Are some subclasses missing something?  Do some subclasses do too much?  Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills?  Anything else relevant you can think of.

Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:

  • This is for mundane subclasses only.  Please no magick talk.
  • There will be 0 karma subclasses.  There will be karma subclasses.  Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
  • Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.

Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill.  Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill.  Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.
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frankjacoby

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2018, 02:04:14 PM »
Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.

I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.

Slipknife is not a mundane subclass

mansa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2018, 02:43:29 PM »
Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.

I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.

Slipknife is not a mundane subclass

No, but it is 1 karma.
Compared to the other 1 karma subclass, it gives master level skills while the other ones only give advanced.

I also think it should be moved to 2 karma... It have master dropped to advanced.
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Brytta Léofa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2018, 02:55:41 PM »
Slipknife is not a mundane subclass

It's...magick? ?   ?     ?
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Delirium

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2018, 02:57:37 PM »
Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.
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Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2018, 02:59:35 PM »
Slipknife is a mundane subclass.

Extended subclasses are fine to discuss.

Magick subclasses are not.

Mundane in this context wasn't mean to mean ordinary, it was meant to mean non-magickal.

sleepyhead

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2018, 03:14:14 PM »
I think it was just supposed to be a joke about how great and OP slipknife is. It transcends the mundane.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 03:34:13 PM by sleepyhead »

Brytta Léofa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2018, 03:29:23 PM »
I think it was just supposed to be a joke about how great it OP slipknife is. It transcends the mundane.

That wooshing sound was the joke flying over my head. ;D
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flurry

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2018, 05:08:51 PM »
Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.

This made me think about what a Master Florist subclass would look like.

floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage
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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2018, 06:04:19 PM »
I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes. I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass. I am looking for your feedback in this thread.  What subclasses are the best?  Which are the worst?  Why?  Are some subclasses missing something?  Do some subclasses do too much?  Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills?  Anything else relevant you can think of.

Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:

  • This is for mundane subclasses only.  Please no magick talk.
  • There will be 0 karma subclasses.  There will be karma subclasses.  Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
  • Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.

Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill.  Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill.  Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.
Fair point.

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JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2018, 06:24:54 PM »
Sorry John. I wasn't at all trying to minimize your contribution. To be fair, I like many of your points.
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Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2018, 06:45:09 PM »
It is good to get someone else's perspective, and I welcome everyone getting their ideas out there.  There is always that potential for the "I didn't think of that", even in cases when folks are coming at something with different perspectives.

In general, your suggestions tend to up the power of the 0 karma subclasses, in some cases quite dramatically.  The intent of this isn't to increase the relative power level of subclasses.  I wouldn't call what you have suggested as tweaking things so much as re-working them.  There may be cases where re-working is merited, but I doubt it will be a wholesale reworking of everything.

The only thing that really surprises me is I don't see where folks have amalgamated and processed what I have said over the new classes project and applied it to ideas here.  Example:  I've talked about what we are calling abilities.  I've said abilities can be tied to classes or subclasses.  You can see what abilities are tied to guilds currently.  No one has suggested a subclass that gives the ability to quit out in the wilderness.

Delirium

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2018, 06:48:00 PM »
Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.

This made me think about what a Master Florist subclass would look like.

floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage

I love it.
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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2018, 06:52:39 PM »
Sorry John. I wasn't at all trying to minimize your contribution. To be fair, I like many of your points.
Not at all. It was a good point to make.

The intent of this isn't to increase the relative power level of subclasses.
Unfortunately the subclasses aren't all created equal. Tailor and jeweler are my go to 0 karma subclasses. Thief (which I haven't posted up yet) is IMO a complete trap option. The only way to equalise the subclasses would be to nerf tailor and jeweler and pick another subclass as the baseline power level or bring everything up to the tailor and jeweler power level. It's partly why I put in the feedback about tailor and jeweler because it demonstrates why I think those subclasses are as powerful as they are.

I wouldn't call what you have suggested as tweaking things so much as re-working them.  There may be cases where re-working is merited, but I doubt it will be a wholesale reworking of everything.
Fair enough. If I do something I don't like doing it in half measures ;)

I'll keep going because I've basically finished the karma 0 classes (got a couple more on my phone that I can't get to right now). My thoughts on the karma subclasses are much less extensive.

The only thing that really surprises me is I don't see where folks have amalgamated and processed what I have said over the new classes project and applied it to ideas here.  Example:  I've talked about what we are calling abilities.  I've said abilities can be tied to classes or subclasses.  You can see what abilities are tied to guilds currently.  No one has suggested a subclass that gives the ability to quit out in the wilderness.
I missed the part where giving subclasses abilities was an option. The last subclass that had an ability (scavenger's ability to forage for food) saw that subclass removed from the game. Given how all of the classes had abilities I wasn't sure if giving them to subclasses was something that the staff were interested in given scavenger's fate. I'll be happy to suggest abilities for the subclasses as well. Some of them will pretty obvious (hunter should get hunting specialised for wilderness for example), but I'll go through the exercise nonetheless to see if anything not obvious pops up.
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On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2018, 07:34:13 PM »
Thief
Skills: Advanced in sleight of hands. Journeyman in sneak, steal, peek and hide.

This is a bad subclass. Anyone who takes it has taken a trap choice. Tailor takes one master skill from artisan/craftsperson and then gives the subclass supplementary skills. So in my opinion all other subclasses should do the same.

In this case for thief the key skill is steal from miscreant. I would have that at advanced and peek and sleight of hand also at advanced to supplement it. I would offer haggle and value at journeyman so they can sell what they steal.

In this revision the thief has lost sneak and hide. These skills aren't good unless they're together and they're terrible at journeyman. Someone who tries to play a thief with the thief subclass is playing at hardcore mode. This could be an artisan or fighter who will rely on being overlooked as the likely thief. They likely won't live long. But such is life with pickpockets. I do think sneak, hide, steal and peek at advanced are just too many skills for one subclass. So I'm sacrificing stealth for doing 1 job and doing it well.

Thug
Skills: Journeyman in kick, subdue, sap, watch and bash.

So not a trap subclass, but still pretty awful. I see this as a subclass that takes from enforcer . The key skill is sap at advanced with hide and bludgeoning also at advanced. I'd give them kick at journeyman.

House Servant
Skills: advanced in pilot, floristry, cooking and hide. They can achieve the level of journeyman in listen.

Floristry is a dead skill on this subclass IMO. Cooking is also pretty bad as everyone except fighters, raiders and enforcers get it to advanced now. I'd give them pilot, listen and hide at advanced and scan at journeyman.

Guard
Skills: advanced in watch. journeyman in rescue, subdue, guarding and shield use.

The classes have changed so much this needs to change significantly. Advanced in guard and rescue is good synergy for raider, stalker, infiltrator and miscreant. Scan at advanced is also a key support skill, but one most of them have scan at advanced already so there's not much harm in including it. Subdue at journeyman can also be good.

Predator
Skills: New subguild.

Where thug gets bludgeoning, gladiator slashing, forester chopping. Predator gets piercing.

Advanced in piercing and two handed. Journeyman in scan, hunt and climb.

I'm trying to bridge the divide between city and desert with this one and not get too much overlap.
-----
Karma 1 subclasses

These are harder to judge. I see these essentially as karma 0 subclass++. That is how I will be reviewing them.

Apothecary, Master Tailor/Jeweller/Armorsmith/Chef/Potter/Weaponsmith
Apothecary Skills: master in bandagemaking and floristry. advanced in bandage, forage and brew.
Master Tailor Skills: mastery in clothworking, advanced level in haggle, tanning, and dyeing.
Master Jeweler Skills: mastery in jewelrymaking, advanced level in haggling, feather working, and stonecrafting. They can achieve a journeyman level in value.
Master Armorsmith Skills: mastery in tanning and armor repair, leather working and armor making. advanced level in haggle.
Master Chef Skills: advanced level in haggle, and master levels in skinning and cooking.
Master Potter Skills: journeyman level in value, an advanced level in haggling, and master levels in dyeing and clayworking
Master Weaponsmith: advanced level in haggling. They can achieve mastery in fletchery, swordmaking, knife making, and spearmaking.

I'll be honest, without mastercrafting none of these subclasses seem worth taking. Is the divide between advanced and master in terms of recipes enough to justify a new subclass? If not, I would just remove them.

If the divide is worth keeping, give them the same skills as their relevant subclass with all crafting at master except for toolmaking which should cap at advanced. Give them advanced haggle as well  (or for master tailor bump up haggle to master and move  toolmaking to advanced).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 07:36:12 PM by John »
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2018, 07:36:18 PM »
For hunt and stealth, all the subclasses have an ability that allows them to function in the environment that makes the most sense already.

sleepyhead

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2018, 07:37:01 PM »
I was under the impression that the "Master Xmaker" subs could still CC. For now, anyway. People with those are, afaik, the only people that can CC besides those with the Custom Crafter sub (and legacy merchants, of course)

Brokkr

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John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2018, 08:03:06 PM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting
Thanks! The docs are a bit all over the place right now (understandable given the extensive change). So I wasn't sure what was still current. Good to see the confirmation. In that case the master crafting subclasses are at the exact power level I'd expect for them so I'd keep them all as they are.

Majordomo
Skills: mastery in listening and piloting, and advanced levels in guarding, cooking, sleight of hand, and watch.

As mentioned cooking at advanced is redundant. I don't think there's enough synergy or value add for watch to also be on a subclass. The only ones that benefit are the heavy mercentile and heavy combat desert classes, fence, enforcer and fighter. The rest all have it. Listen is a great skil to have and definitely worthwhile. Sleight of hand is of minimal value as well.

I'd be inclined to give them mastery in listen and pilot. Advanced in guarding, sneak and hide.

Slipknife
Skills: Master in sneak and hide. Advanced in backstab and poisoning. Journeyman at throw and sap.

Master in sneak and hide is great. Advanced in backstab and poisoning is also great. Journeyman at throw and sap seems very meh. I'd give them journeyman on listen, remove throw and sap and call it a day.

Cutpurse
Skills: Advanced in peek, steal, scan and sneak. Journeyman in sleight of hand and sap.

Advanced skills are great. Although slipknife gets sneak and hide up to master and advanced in backstab and poisoning. They're at the same karma level so I'd bump up sneak and hide to master, keep steal and peek at advanced, give them advanced sleight of hand and remove scan and sap completely to bring it more in line with Slipknife.
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On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2018, 09:12:30 PM »
Rogue
Skills: Advanced in watch, sneak, scan, hide and climb. Journeyman in pick.

Again watch is not worth it on this subclass. I'd have sneak, climb, hide and pick at advanced. Give them scan at journeyman. THis makes it on par with Slipknife.

Minstrel
Skills: Master in instrument making. Advanced in listen and sleight of hand. Journeyman in scan, steal, haggle and watch.

Master in instrument making is a "nice something on the side". I don't think it's as important these days, but if you want to keep it on the minstrel go for it. I'd put haggle at advanced and keep scan at journeyman but remove steal and watch. Steal at journeyman is just not worth having. I'm removing watch to compensate bumping up haggle to advanced (also not much value in having watch with the typical classes).

Subclasses that require no changes
Master Trader and Grebber seem fine to me as Karma 1 subclasses.
------
KARMA 2 SUBCLASSES

This is going to be more difficult to judge. Outdoorsman is my benchmark. It has to be my most popular Karma 2 subclass.

Outdoorsman
Skills: Master in skinning. Advanced level in archery, sneak, hide, and direction sense, scan. Journeyman level in hunt.

Put this here just to help me establish the baseline.

Aggressor/Bruiser/Lancer/Beserker
Skills: Advanced level in slashing/bludgeoning/piercing/chopping weapons, subdue, disarm. Journeyman levels in kick, bash and blind fighting.

Outdoorsman has 5 skills at advanced and they're pretty damn good skills. Not so with these subclasses. I'd have Master in subdue. Advanced in weapon skill, (dual wield or two-handed), kick and disarm. Journeyman in armor repair.

Protector
Skills: Master in parry, guarding, and shield use. Advanced in flee. Journeyman in rescue and bandage.

No real changes here. This is a damn good subclass and is definitely on par with Outdoorsman.

And that concludes my analysis of the subclasses. Either tonight or tomorrow I'll have a closer look at the abilities and see what ones might work well with what subclasses.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 09:14:56 PM by John »
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 140
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2018, 09:56:36 PM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting
Slipknife
Skills: Master in sneak and hide. Advanced in backstab and poisoning. Journeyman at throw and sap.

Master in sneak and hide is great. Advanced in backstab and poisoning is also great. Journeyman at throw and sap seems very meh. I'd give them journeyman on listen, remove throw and sap and call it a day.


Seems like you're attempting to unnecessarily nerf slipknife, taking away the throw and sap basically makes it a thief plus, essentially useless, who cares about listen?

John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2018, 10:17:08 PM »
Seems like you're attempting to unnecessarily nerf slipknife, taking away the throw and sap basically makes it a thief plus, essentially useless, who cares about listen?
Are either throw or sap actually worth having if they cap out at journeyman?

I also think listen has to be one of the more popular non-combat skills in the game. Some people take an entire subclass just to have listen. Listen not only lets you overhear plots (which helps make you more versatile when combined with sneak and hide) but it gives you the ability to detect people sneaking around.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2018, 12:47:35 AM »
Abilities: I'm assuming anyone who has hunt, listen, sneak and hide will have it specialised for the relevant environment they'd work in if they don't already.

Can forage scraps of food in cities: Currently this is on the criminal classes. Even a fence gets it! So it makes sense to give them to the criminal subclasses. That would be con artist, thief and thug. None of the city classes get any abilities so this can help flesh them out with what would otherwise be pretty threadbare subclasses (especially if staff don't agree with changing what skills these subclasses get).

Of the extended subclasses I'd give it to cutpurse, especially rogue and possibly slipknife (although slipknife does already get some good skills).

Can forage food in the wilderness: I'd give this to archer, forester and hunter. They're all thematically appropriate. For extended subclasses I probably wouldn't give it to any of them except for grebber. I wouldn't give it to outdoorsman because I'm assuming subclasses would only get 1 ability.

May prepare a campsite in the wilderness: Pretty sure this is wilderness quit. So I'd give it to Bounty Hunter, Caravan Guide and Outdoorsman. These are all subclasses that live in the desert. Both forage food and wilderness quit are good abilities. I've given these wilderness quit to give them a differentiator and help make these subclasses excel in what they do. You could argue that Caravan Guide should have forage food.

Good or Fair recovery from exertion: I'd give this to Grebber. It's not a GREAT subguild, but there's still a place for it and I do see value in it (especially for city based high mercantile classes). Giving them Good recovery would just help give it that small push. Alternatively if you think good recover is simply too good, downgrade it to fair.

Can hitch two mounts at once: I think Outlaw could definitely benefit from this ability. It'll help them steal other people's mounts or carry their ill gotten goods.

Tame mount: I believe half-elves have this ability. Giving it to a subclass is removes so much incentive to play a half-elf. The only exception is for nomad. It's a flavour subclass so people would play only typically play it if they want to be a nomad. So I'd give this to nomads if anyone was to get it. Otherwise potentially give nomads 2-mounts instead.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Insigne

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2018, 07:04:17 AM »
In their current state, some of the subclasses seem rather unbalanced. Maybe that was a result of the karma scale shrinkage. One of the obvious examples is Slipknife. When comparing it to other stealth-based subclasses on the same level, Slipknife is capable of mastering hide and sneak while Rogue and Cutpurse's skills cap out at advanced.

Additionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.

Here are my suggestions:

1. Make all extended mundane subclasses available at 1 karma.

I have a couple reasons for this, besides making mundane subclasses more attainable:
  • Locking magickers and half-giants behind a little over two months worth of karma makes sense to me. I just can't see Outdoorsman the same way. I'd like to see a shift towards reserving higher karma for more complex and challenging roles.
  • The first point of karma is the easiest to gain and, with the measure of trust granted by staff and a wait time of one month per spend, I think it's a much more reasonable place to set a (more powerful) mundane role at.
2. Rework some of the extended subclasses to balance them out.

There are a lot of great suggestions on this thread and I particularly love John's points on abilities and 0-karma subclasses so I won't bother rehashing those. I'll focus on the extended subclasses that I think could use a little more love and why. This is my opinion on how they could be adjusted based on my limited experience:
  • Rogue falls behind Slipknife with skills capped at advanced at the highest. I'd give it master climb and advanced pick. Lower watch if not removing it altogether.
  • Cutpurse is here for the same reason as Rogue. I'd go for master sneak and peek, if not steal.
  • Majordomo seems like it doesn't know what it is. It's a mish-mash of skills that don't have much synergy. If I wanted master listen and pilot, I'd pick Master Trader over it. I'm not sure what makes this subclass worth picking over others.
  • Grebber shouldn't have higher hunt than Outdoorsman. Journeyman climb seems like a death trap. I think I'd rather see this subclass with higher climb and the addition of search.
  • Apothecary is almost there, but it would make perfect sense for it to have master bandage.
3. Consider skills that aren't offered in any of the current options.

I took a look at mansa's spreadsheet and found several skills that aren't currently offered in any of the subclasses, extended or not:
  • Master scan (which has been mentioned earlier in the thread)
  • Charge
  • City hunt
  • Search
  • Crossbow use
  • Sling use
  • Blowgun use
  • Threaten
  • Hack
  • Riposte
This is more of an observation than anything I really want to see implemented into subclasses, but it would be nice to see some of the new skills as an option.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 473
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2018, 09:30:49 AM »
Hmm. Now that everyone gets weapon skills, I'm not sure that Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker are going to get picked much anymore. While some people may have taken them in order to use a different kind of weapon than their guild usually gets, I think their main purpose was to provide merchants (and full guild magickers, when they existed) with some nominal fighting skill. Sure, they may have a bit higher of a cap on their weapon skills than heavy mercantile gets, but I think it won't be a popular choice anymore, especially when you have to spend 2 karma on it, and the custom crafter subclass will be an automatic choice for a lot of heavy mercantile players. Kick, bash, disarm, and blind fighting are still cool, but I think the draw of these subs has always been the weapon skills, and I certainly don't think those skills alone plus a potential slight bump to the weapon skills cap that most people won't ever hit anyway is worth 2 karma anymore. Maybe the weapon skill caps could be made higher?

The non-extended subclass Gladiator is in an even worse spot, weapon skill-wise. Their single weapon skill only goes up to apprentice. Again, kick, bash, disarm, and pain tolerance are great, but they might need something to replace the apprentice slashing that I don't think anyone is quite as excited about anymore. I think this subclass should also possibly be renamed since there is actually now a main class for gladiators.

Thoughts?

John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2018, 11:03:22 AM »
Additionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.
It's pretty clear this is exactly how karma is now structured. It use to be a level of "trust" had to be attained to play difficult to play well concepts. The extended subguilds pretty much removed that and we've instead steadily moved towards a "karma = more powerful characters". Brokkr specifically said this isn't the venue to discuss that though so I've deliberately not voiced my opinions on the subject (other than to say I have pretty strong ones which are counter to the current setup but am not looking to explore them in this thread).
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

number13

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2018, 12:20:23 PM »
All of the subclasses should be junked, (except for Custom Crafter and the elementalists, sorcs, potential psion subguilds).

Just allow players to select three skills to add to their character (or bump skill cap and starting skill level if existing), two with the cap of Advanced, one with the cap of Master.

If you spend a karma point on the character, you get an additional two skills added, one capping at Master, the other capping at Advanced.

Stuff like languages, accents, special equipment count as a pick.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 12:24:15 PM by number13 »

Insigne

  • Posts: 320
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2018, 12:38:55 PM »
Thoughts?
Those are good observations. I can get behind Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker getting a slight bump in weapon skills to make up for the changes and make it worth the karma spend. Would raising Gladiator's slashing to journeyman put the subclass on par with the new classes? I don't know. I'd almost rather go for flee.

Edit:
Additionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.
It's pretty clear this is exactly how karma is now structured.
Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. That was inaccurate and a poor choice of wording on my part.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 12:53:21 PM by Insigne »

mansa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2018, 12:39:44 PM »
I have a few questions:

Should subclasses have any skills at 'Master' ?

How "powerful" are crafting skills?   
   * Is there any crafting skills that are more powerful than others?

Is there a skill that is a requirement to your enjoyment of the game?
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flurry

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2018, 01:41:42 PM »
For what it's worth, unless I'm mistaken, these are the crafts that can only be master custom crafted by the Custom Crafter subclass:

pick making, feather working, instrument making, toolmaking, bandage making, club making, axe making, bow making, tent making, floristry, woodworking

Maybe some of these would be appropriate for new or existing Master ________ subclasses?

« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 01:43:59 PM by flurry »
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Delirium

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2018, 02:24:59 PM »
Some of these can be fit into existing subguilds:

Some already exist:
Minstrels get custom (master) instrument making
Apothecaries get custom (master) bandage making

Suggestions for fitting in the rest:
Outdoorsman for custom tent making
Forester for custom axe making
Archer for custom bow making
Master Jeweler for custom feather working

Break up Master Weaponsmith into separate custom craft subclasses:
Master Bladecrafter: Swords, knife making, haggle, value, toolmaking
Master Weaponcrafter: Spears, clubs, haggle, value, toolmaking


A new subguild could be created for pick_making: Locksmith.  Haggle, value, toolmaking, palm, and peek seem like good accompanying skills.
A new subguild could be created for floristry: Florist (suggested by Flurry earlier in the thread): floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage
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Insigne

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2018, 02:43:19 PM »
Apothecary also seems to get floristry to master.

lostinspace

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2018, 06:28:01 PM »
Has there been any consideration for the search skill on a subclass? One thing I've liked about the new classes is how many classes get it, compared to what I believe used to just be a burglar skill.
3/21/16 Never Forget

John

  • Posts: 4062
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2018, 06:39:27 PM »
Hmm. Now that everyone gets weapon skills, I'm not sure that Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker are going to get picked much anymore. While some people may have taken them in order to use a different kind of weapon than their guild usually gets, I think their main purpose was to provide merchants (and full guild magickers, when they existed) with some nominal fighting skill. Sure, they may have a bit higher of a cap on their weapon skills than heavy mercantile gets, but I think it won't be a popular choice anymore, especially when you have to spend 2 karma on it, and the custom crafter subclass will be an automatic choice for a lot of heavy mercantile players. Kick, bash, disarm, and blind fighting are still cool, but I think the draw of these subs has always been the weapon skills, and I certainly don't think those skills alone plus a potential slight bump to the weapon skills cap that most people won't ever hit anyway is worth 2 karma anymore. Maybe the weapon skill caps could be made higher?
My understanding is your skill in a weapon skill helps determine your defences against that weapon. The fighting style skill (two-handed and dual wield) impact your ability to use those weapons at all. I think including the weapon style (say dual wield when it's piercing and slashing and two-handed when it's bludgeoning and chopping) included at advanced along with the weapon skill would be enough of a boost to make these subclasses worthwhile (especially when coupled with a different weapon skill then the one your class gives you).

Should subclasses have any skills at 'Master' ?
Yes. Without it the extended crafting subclasses just aren't worthwhile.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Delirium

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2018, 07:52:08 PM »
Skill in a weapon absolutely affects more than just your ability to defend against it.
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Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

John

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2018, 08:07:48 PM »
Skill in a weapon absolutely affects more than just your ability to defend against it.
Sorry. I meant "in addition to contributing to offense" because that was just obvious to me so I didn't say it even though it would have made what I was saying clearer.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 473
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2018, 08:10:14 PM »
If you think people will still choose those classes, that's fair enough, but I'm not sure they're worth a whole 2 karma anymore now that everyone gets a weapon skill of some kind out of the box.

Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2018, 08:19:33 PM »
I'm going to leave this thread open another week (coincidentally, perhaps, a week I am on vacation).  Will be closing it when I get back on the 15th or 16th.  If you want to present your ideas, that is how long you have to do it.

mansa

  • Posts: 9464
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2018, 08:36:18 PM »
Having to redo the subclasses is tough.

We have options for:

0 Karma
1 Karma
2 Karma

I think it would help to have a 'game design plan' or 'goal' for 1 Karma classes and 2 Karma classes.

0 Karma - My suggestion is to duplicate the 3 x 5 grid for regular classes, just keep the skills less and cap at advanced?

1 Karma - Various Master Crafting, and maybe 'journeyman' weapon skills?   advanced stealth and weapon skills?  Deeper crafting tree?

2 Karma - Master weapon skills, master combat and stealth skills?


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Trent

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2018, 08:44:54 PM »
Under that system people with no karma will be powerless peons no matter how long they have their character.

Narf

  • Posts: 817
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2018, 08:58:24 PM »
Having to redo the subclasses is tough.

We have options for:

0 Karma
1 Karma
2 Karma

I think it would help to have a 'game design plan' or 'goal' for 1 Karma classes and 2 Karma classes.

0 Karma - My suggestion is to duplicate the 3 x 5 grid for regular classes, just keep the skills less and cap at advanced?

1 Karma - Various Master Crafting, and maybe 'journeyman' weapon skills?   advanced stealth and weapon skills?  Deeper crafting tree?

2 Karma - Master weapon skills, master combat and stealth skills?

Rather than power gating karma, I think staff would be far better served by pain-in-the-ass gating. I'd suggest reworking the subguilds from the perspective that higher karma classes are those that require more staff-side support and effort or are more open to abuse, while low karma guilds require little or none, but are otherwise on par in power.

This is much more in line with the original purpose of karma. There's not much reason why a new player to the game can't make a character that is codedly powerful, but there's plenty of reason why they should wait before playing characters that are easily abused or require a lot of staff imput.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 09:04:19 PM by Narf »

Narf

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2018, 08:59:09 PM »
Edit: Double posted instead of editing my post like I'd meant to.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 09:03:34 PM by Narf »

number13

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2018, 11:37:22 PM »
Higher karma subguilds, if they exist, should give you more power up front -- more pre-branched skills, higher starting skills -- but cap out at the same place as the lower karma subguilds.

najdorf

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2018, 12:31:46 AM »
IT would be a very bad game design if higher karma grants higher caps. I wouldn't play the game as a starter, if I knew I'm handicapped from the start.

Cind

  • Posts: 1484
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2018, 02:49:02 AM »
I agree with the thoughts on weaponcrafter. In the witch class days, I was an unmanifested witch for a month living solely off the fruits of my subclass in Allanak. There was one other person doing this, and it was obvious in the shops, since all either of us could really make and sell was swords. Its really difficult to get ingredients for spears offpeak and many combat role people can make knives. I say its not just a good idea; weaponcrafter needs a revamp.
Look, a petting tregil.  So silky...Feel him.

roughneck

  • Posts: 708
Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2018, 08:55:02 AM »
I think, if anything,higher karma should have lower starting skills - veterans know he to train skills up. Give the newbs a fighting chance! Don’t let karma turn into some kind of player caste, the more equal footed we all are the better.

Karma is to restrict rare races and classes to keep the game world rich, because rare things should be rare. It also gives people that stick around a chance to keep the experience fresh with something new.

If it were up to me, I would make all subclasses 0 karma. Leave karma for magic and races.

Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2018, 10:57:34 AM »
    • There will be 0 karma subclasses.  There will be karma subclasses.  Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.

    Please stay on topic.  Subclass karma and how that will work is specifically designated as out of scope.

    stoicreader

    • Posts: 124
    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #88 on: July 09, 2018, 08:17:42 PM »
    0 karma sub guild = +2 skills of your choice cap at journeyman
    1 karma = +3 skills of your choice cap at advanced
    2 karma = +4 skills of your choice cap at master
    3 karma = have whatever you want.
    Meh

    CodeMaster

    • Posts: 1096
    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #89 on: July 09, 2018, 09:12:08 PM »
    The neat, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
         "I tried hairy...Im sorry"

    roughneck

    • Posts: 708
    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #90 on: July 10, 2018, 07:02:24 AM »
    Physician (0 karma):
    - advanced bandage
    - advanced brew
    - advanced bandage making
    - advanced floristry
    - advanced forage

    Apothecary (1 karma):
    - master bandage making
    - master floristry
    - advanced bandage
    - advanced forage
    - (branches to) advanced brewing

    I think for the one karma Apothecary should get poisoning to advanced as well. Branch it off brewing.

    John

    • Posts: 4062
    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #91 on: July 10, 2018, 07:29:32 AM »
    Physician (0 karma):
    - advanced bandage
    - advanced brew
    - advanced bandage making
    - advanced floristry
    - advanced forage

    Apothecary (1 karma):
    - master bandage making
    - master floristry
    - advanced bandage
    - advanced forage
    - (branches to) advanced brewing

    I think for the one karma Apothecary should get poisoning to advanced as well. Branch it off brewing.

    I know when merchant existed I didn't bother choosing apothecary despite the fact extended subclasses were free because I didn't want to branch brew.
    Quote from: RogueGunslinger
    On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

    yousuff

    • Posts: 181
    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #92 on: July 10, 2018, 08:59:45 AM »
    Ever since I joined the game I've wanted to play a Nilazi or Elkrosian, both of which are gone :( Work on bringing them back in the new magick subguild system!

    As for Mundane subguilds, why not one centered on the silt sea?
    Silt Skimmer
    Master pilot, advanced direction sense, Journeyman forage (fishing in the sea? Maybe forage for food outdoors?), Journeyman flee, journeyman climb (man overboard!)
    yousuck

    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #93 on: July 10, 2018, 09:09:14 AM »
    Nomad should give the ability to make wilderness camp (because they live outside in camps)

    Grebber shoulder give the ability to forage food both indoors and outdoors (since it's the 'beggar' subclass IMHO)

    Caravan Guide should give the ability to hitch more than one mount and tame animals (seems logical, needs to be able to rein animals effectively)


    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #94 on: July 10, 2018, 01:00:28 PM »
    Also as has been mentioned earlier in this thread

    Archer seems more like bowyer as it stands, especially since the split of "archery" into subsets of ranged skills

    As per current helpfile:
    Archers are capable with all forms of missile weapons: bows, slings and crossbows.

    I'd propose Archer be split into sub-categories:

    Archer - Specifically the effective use of ranged weapons

    Advanced Sling
    -- Accurate, but cannot poison stones or has some limits on range, unable to obtain "very long range" slings (to my knowledge)

    Journeyman Archery + Crossbow
    -- Less accurate but able to use effectively

    Advanced Fletchery + feather working
    -- Still makes sense for crafting ammo.

    Ditch Dyeing. Buy fancy feathers from a real crafter
    Ditch Bowmaking. That's a really specialized skill and makes more sense for a specialized crafter
    Ditch Direction Sense. You can be an archer who is trained indoors. Doesn't mean you can find your way in a storm.


    Bowyer - Specifically the effective creation of ranged weapons

    Advanced Fletchery + feather working + Bowmaking + Dyeing
    -- the core crafting skills of a bowyer/fletcher

    Journeyman haggle + value
    -- to assist obtaining materials

    tapas

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    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #95 on: July 19, 2018, 11:15:21 AM »
    Slipknife seems kind of overpowered. And at only 1 karma to boot.

    Currently the only subclasses I see as go-to (for non-crafting) are slipknife and outdoorsman (2 karma). Now that most classes get weaponskills.

    Moreover I don't think slipknife should get master sneak and hide when even infiltrator (the assassin expy) doesn't even get it.

    Brokkr

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    Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
    « Reply #96 on: July 19, 2018, 11:18:54 AM »
    Locking this topic as promised as I've started looking at the subguilds.