Author Topic: Mundane Subclass Feedback  (Read 1900 times)

Brokkr

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Mundane Subclass Feedback
« on: July 03, 2018, 01:44:44 PM »
I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes.  I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass.  I am looking for your feedback in this thread.  What subclasses are the best?  Which are the worst?  Why?  Are some subclasses missing something?  Do some subclasses do too much?  Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills?  Anything else relevant you can think of.

Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:

  • This is for mundane subclasses only.  Please no magick talk.
  • There will be 0 karma subclasses.  There will be karma subclasses.  Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
  • Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.

Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill.  Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill.  Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.

Veselka

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2018, 01:49:58 PM »
Just to clarify, the 0 karma subclasses are the ones like “bard” and “mercenary” correct?
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Molten Heart

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2018, 01:54:51 PM »
Currently there is no subguild offering master bowmaking.

Maybe some kind of extension of the current archer subguild which offers master bowmaking. Maybe let if offer archery, crossbow use, and sling use to some degree.

(edited to change "advanced bowmaking" to "master bowmaking")
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 02:05:04 PM by Molten Heart »

Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2018, 01:56:57 PM »
Do you mean skill level, or like an extended sub that does not offer custom crafting of bows?  There are a handful of skills that don't have custom crafting offered through extended "Master" subclasses.

Molten Heart

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2018, 02:04:17 PM »
I mean an extended subguild allowing master crafting of bows. I guess that'd also include custom crafting since that's the direction things are going.

Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2018, 02:20:30 PM »
At least one subclass should offer Master Scan.

1 CGP subclasses that gives Master Listen (Majordomo + Master Trader) (edit)
1 CGP subclass that gives Master Hide (Slipknife)

None that give Master Scan that I've noted unless I missed something.



« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 03:59:58 PM by only_plays_tribals »

mansa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2018, 02:20:40 PM »
::EDIT::
I didn't realize it was for karma subclasses as well.  I thought it was just for non-karma subclasses
::EDIT::


REFERENCES:
0 Karma:
1 Karma:
2 Karma:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 06:43:43 PM by mansa »
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Brokkr

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2018, 02:44:10 PM »
Ok, Mansa wants me to get rid of more existing subclasses.  Noted!

tapas

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 02:53:43 PM »
There are six sneaky subguilds.

Thief
Conartist
Thug (added just for sap)
Slipknife
Cutpurse
Rogue

Only one subclass gives pick. Rogue at journeyman. For that you also get advanced city sneak/hide, watch, scan, climb.

Maybe add another subclass that gives journeyman pick, pickmaking and some crafting skills. Like a pilferer-lite? With no sneak, no climb, no listen etc?


sleepyhead

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 03:48:10 PM »
I think a subclass that offers scan would be nice. Especially with a lot more people hiding at lower levels in the new classes, a lowish-level scan sub would be helpful to round out certain concepts.

number13

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2018, 06:10:25 PM »
Just asking out of curiosity: why was scavenger and acrobat removed? (i know it happened a long time ago, probably.)

Hauwke

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2018, 06:39:26 PM »
I think a sub-class that offers the new combat skills might be nice, in the same vein as pilferer-lite, we could go with fighter-lite, so the new skills that had work put into them will see frequent use.

mansa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2018, 06:44:21 PM »
Ok, Mansa wants me to get rid of more existing subclasses.  Noted!
  I updated my post.   Thanks for the callout.
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Brytta Léofa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2018, 08:27:07 PM »
Outdoorsman is the go-to choice for a city/generic dude who wants to not suck outdoors. What would a 2-karma city/rogueish subguild look like? Should there be an equivalent? (Or is outdoorsman overspendy with the new classes in?)
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mansa

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2018, 08:44:23 PM »
I made a thing.

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuelAW2dNA8Cg2i_LessvQbWvxNk

It's the current subclasses and skills, taken from the helpfiles.
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Cind

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2018, 07:10:47 AM »
I've always had a beef with the fact that no subclass gets clubmaking or axemaking, which would go pretty good together in the same subclass. Bowmaking too, like someone said earlier. Despite the fact that axes and clubs are widely used in both combat and other uses (when people try to kidnap my characters, they usually go for clubs) practically no one is able to make them.

I use master tailor a lot, but am a little confused by the fact that they get tanning, which hints that they are a House-directed subclass/are for people with a crafting background, but they don't get toolmaking. I understand this was probably left out for a reason, but 1. You can fall back on toolmaking with sandstone and basalt if you're really in it deep and in Allanak, and 2. people who start out as a class other than merchant (yes I know, outdated) probably will need tools in order to either tan or sew for a living to begin with. Leveling up a craft skill without the help of a House takes money, but less money if you have an average tool. The old classes did not begin with much money unless they were a merchant, primarily to outfit you with clothes, armor and a weapon or two. Honestly? It was hard for me to have anything in Storm that wasn't a ranger/tailor or master tailor. I have to choose between tools and being able to work most of my cloth. Advanced crafting is fairly unreliable. Doable, but when you're relying on it to survive, it feels a little like you are wasting materials. (Of course, this can be mitigated with an awesome tool or a pair of decent tools, but not everyone knows that, and I often forget it myself. I also didn't know you could hold a tool in each hand and add their abilities together, after about 10 years of playing almost nothing but crafters and witches.)

I want to say I'm real excited about the new changes and do not play long-lived characters so I will probably get to get into the action at some point.

We need a brewer subclass, who begins with the skill and can have it to master. Maybe a cooking boost, maybe a handful of elvish, like to apprentice. Otherwise nothing. Trust me--- the most popular subclass in the world is coming.

Just asking out of curiosity: why was scavenger and acrobat removed? (i know it happened a long time ago, probably.)

Scavenger was changed to the extended subguild grebber, probably because it was the only food-greb subguild at the time and everyone had it. I don't know why acrobat is gone.
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Cind

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2018, 07:17:36 AM »
When you are choosing a class to look at on the website drop down links, where is Artisan?
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JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2018, 08:12:15 AM »
Good eye. Soldier is listed twice and no Artisan.
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RabidMuffins

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2018, 11:00:31 AM »
I noticed that there is no longer an Apothecary sub-class
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CodeMaster

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2018, 11:33:21 AM »
I'm stoked for the new classes.

I think the subclasses are due for renaming, especially given the new class names.  I look at "help subclasses" and see we have (or have had) "craftsperson" and "crafter", "hunter" and "adventurer", "pilferer" and "thief", "mercenary" and "soldier", "nomad" and "scout", "raider" and "outlaw"...   in several of these cases it feels like the subclasses have the canonical sounding name ("thief", "hunter"), which seems wrong to me.  Imagine a new player trying to make intuitive sense of this.

If we had a subclass revamp, I'd love it if they spoke more to the flavor of the role and the background of the character than to raw skills.  Nomad is a great example of this - you get access to languages and an accent.  Mercenary is kind of like this - you start with alcohol and pain tolerance.

I'd love it if subclasses didn't determine skills so much as other flavor enhancements like languages and accents, unique objects, unique tattoos and scars, additional (secret) biography entries, and other small tokens that fleshed out the lives of people in the game world and the systems in place.

What if the gladiator subclass got access to special scars that no other subclass got access to, and maybe a token that was meant to signify that character had fought in the arena in the past (a trinket that templars may or may not take into account)?  (imo, based on title alone, gladiator should be a 1karma subclass because of the knowledge of the gameworld implied)

What if the mercenary subclass automatically started your character off in a "reserve unit of the T'zai Byn?"  If you were a member of this clan you could be brought on at an extreme discount, maybe have access to a room with the clan board readable.

What if a forester subclass started with an additional biography entry that detailed a rumor about a unique event that not everyone in the game knows about?

Or if there were a treasure hunter subclass that started with a random biography about a hidden treasure that may actually exist in the game world?  Etc.

So less skills, more story.  (The new classes have enough skills!)
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stoicreader

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2018, 12:00:31 PM »
When I search Custom Craft on the website there is a conflict of information between the first two entries. One says you need to be master the other does not.

Are the new custom crafter sub class limited to 1 entry per month?
Meh

Armaddict

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2018, 12:07:19 PM »
I'm stoked for the new classes.

I think the subclasses are due for renaming, especially given the new class names.  I look at "help subclasses" and see we have (or have had) "craftsperson" and "crafter", "hunter" and "adventurer", "pilferer" and "thief", "mercenary" and "soldier", "nomad" and "scout", "raider" and "outlaw"...   in several of these cases it feels like the subclasses have the canonical sounding name ("thief", "hunter"), which seems wrong to me.  Imagine a new player trying to make intuitive sense of this.

If we had a subclass revamp, I'd love it if they spoke more to the flavor of the role and the background of the character than to raw skills.  Nomad is a great example of this - you get access to languages and an accent.  Mercenary is kind of like this - you start with alcohol and pain tolerance.

I'd love it if subclasses didn't determine skills so much as other flavor enhancements like languages and accents, unique objects, unique tattoos and scars, additional (secret) biography entries, and other small tokens that fleshed out the lives of people in the game world and the systems in place.

What if the gladiator subclass got access to special scars that no other subclass got access to, and maybe a token that was meant to signify that character had fought in the arena in the past (a trinket that templars may or may not take into account)?  (imo, based on title alone, gladiator should be a 1karma subclass because of the knowledge of the gameworld implied)

What if the mercenary subclass automatically started your character off in a "reserve unit of the T'zai Byn?"  If you were a member of this clan you could be brought on at an extreme discount, maybe have access to a room with the clan board readable.

What if a forester subclass started with an additional biography entry that detailed a rumor about a unique event that not everyone in the game knows about?

Or if there were a treasure hunter subclass that started with a random biography about a hidden treasure that may actually exist in the game world?  Etc.

So less skills, more story.  (The new classes have enough skills!)

Like this a lot.  In my class 'approach' in the other forum, I was talking about how subclasses, as a whole, would need to be toned down.  The new classes just have a -lot- of stuff in and of themselves.  Extended subs can go the way of the dinosaur.  Normal subs can return to prevalence, with less emphasis on new skills, and perhaps more based on bumps or background.

The new guilds, themselves, are pretty good as far as skills go.  Yes, I think there are tweaks necessary, but I think ye olde 'modify it with a subclass' is going to be tremendously outdated.  What you suggest above is a good way to have them still be enriching and important, but without the pure skill consideration of them from yesterday.
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valeria

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2018, 12:31:15 PM »
To the contrary, if your play style isn't "kill stuff (city or wilderness)" there is a lot of modify it with a subclass that is going to need to go on.

I don't see the problem with having diverse subclass options. It gives people more versatility to customize to exactly what they want, to fit the character they've imagined. I'm sure I'm not the only person who uses subclasses for RP flavor instead of as a min/max tool.

The only reason I'd bother getting rid of some are if there are subclasses that no one really picks, and whose skills or flavor could be rolled into other subclasses without much effort.

worldofsand

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2018, 01:47:49 PM »
I feel very strongly that no subclass should offer master stealth or scan (none currently give master scan, but it was suggested above). Now that most classes cap these skills at advanced, getting them at master from a subclass is just far too much sheer value. That's way more than you should get from a subclass where the opportunity cost is so minimal, and it would create too much inequality between characters. Honestly, there are probably very few skills that a subclass should give at master--innocuous ones like crafts and forage are fine, but maybe not things that give huge advantages in conflict, massively improved survival, etc.

Before, four out of six classes had master scan and four out of six had master stealth. That made it far less significant to have a subguild that gave you what was probably the lowers point of master hide/sneak. Now, three out of fifteen have master scan and two have master stealth. That has made it vastly better to have. Offering it via subclass is just too much.

I think we need to avoid letting  mundanesubclasses offer huge gains in sheer power to a character. It shouldn't be something you take to make your character 30% stronger. It should be something you take to add flavor and a bit of variation, maybe some moderate perks that won't make one character dramatically superior to another of the same class. Unlike magick and races, there are no special risks, challenges or obligations with a mundane subguild. You don't have a harder time in life because you took slipknife or whatever. There are no disadvantages that justify giving huge benefits.

I'm generally not a huge fan of mundane subclasses that require karma. I'm down with races and magick requiring karma; there's a reason for that. The mundane subclasses don't really have those same reasons, it's just a pure power bump gated behind the increasingly prohibitive karma thing. One can't even argue that it's about responsible play, because nobody in their right mind could claim that you need to have played long enough to earn karma before you can be trusted to have master stealth on a raider or whatever.

We just got done discussing how new players find it off-putting that there's no real way to gain karma in any kind of timely manner. The experience is all the more souring when they know that they're not only missing out on special races and supernatural options - which anyone can do without - but also sheer power for the characters they can play. That's when it starts to feel tantamount to letting players buy stat boosts with karma.

But since we're surely stuck with extended subclasses, I think it's important that they don't make one guy's proverbial warrior way better than another's.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 02:21:41 PM by worldofsand »

Delirium

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Re: Mundane Subclass Feedback
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2018, 02:14:12 PM »
I like having utility or crafting subclasses. They allow you to round out a concept. Especially the ones that offer custom crafting.

So the ones I'd say to keep are Apothecary and all the crafter subclasses.

The combat/stealth ones I'm neutral on, but I still like the idea of being able to blur the lines with unexpected abilities.
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