Author Topic: Custom Crafting  (Read 1576 times)

sleepyhead

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Custom Crafting
« on: June 21, 2018, 12:04:50 PM »
This didn't seem to exactly fit with the existing topics, but I think it's an important discussion to have. Or at least, it's important to me. I personally always end up dying or storing before I can CC something, but it's still often part of my greater vision for a crafter character. Writing up and getting excited about future concepts is one of my favorite things to do, and this definitely affects some ideas that I had. So I'm going to list the basic facts plus some possible pros and cons. Note that some of these pros and cons are more opinions or predictions than others, and everything's up for debate.

THE FACTS:

- None of the new guilds will inherently receive the ability to custom craft. That includes Heavy Mercantile.

- There will be a new 0-karma subguild (we'll call it custom crafter) added that includes only one skill, toolmaking, to an unknown level. It will also unlock the ability to custom craft any of your main guild's crafting skills up to the level that you have in that skill. So someone with journeyman stonecarving and the subguild will be able to submit new stonecarving crafts up to the journeyman level.

- In addition to the 0-karma custom crafter subguild, there will also continue to be extended (1-karma) subguilds like master potter, master tailor, etc., that grant the ability to custom craft in that one skill.

- There is discussion about letting GMH crafters submit custom crafts just by virtue of being GMH crafters. This would be the only non-subguild-reliant way to custom craft.

- Brokkr has said he has not considered whether or not people will be able to special app the ability to custom-craft along with a non-custom-crafting subguild.

POSSIBLE PROS:

- Since light and heavy mercantile both achieve master level in various crafts, tying it to subguild instead will limit the number of custom crafts submitted, thus preventing staff from being overwhelmed by custom craft requests.

- The custom crafter subguild will allow people with only middling crafting skills to make new custom crafts, possibly encouraging people to custom craft less fancy and pristine items.

- The limitation ensures that people don't try to "have their cake and eat it too." No one can be great at everything, and if you want the ability to produce your own designs, you're going to have to give up something.

- According to Brokkr, custom crafting isn't immensely popular to begin with. Many merchants never submit a custom craft. All this change will do is limit custom crafting to the people who care about it enough to dedicate their subguild to it. Most people will not be affected, even if they think they will be.

- Brokkr has also said that one of the benefits of this change will be to make subguild choice matter.

- You won't have to master your craft skills to be able to custom craft them.

POSSIBLE CONS:

- There are players whose main interest in the game is the ability to produce custom crafts, and it may not be fun to severely limit their choice of subguild.

- Mercantile guilds, particularly heavy mercantile, may look less attractive to some when custom crafting is not inherently part of their skillset.

- No Elementalists or sorcerers will be able to custom craft unless they join a GMH (to do GMH-related crafts), which means there are unlikely to be any ritual magick-related RP props added to the game from now on. No gemmed or tribal magickers will be able to custom craft whatsoever.

- Despite the versatility and anti-guild-sniffing power of the well-rounded new guilds, if you see someone produce even one non-GMH custom craft, you instantly know for a fact that they are not any kind of magicker.

- One of the stated intentions of the new system is to encourage more mid-level, less "fancy" crafts. However, only the 'mixed' guilds seem to get lower-capped crafts, and even they reach advanced, which can create some pretty fancy items. I have not found a main guild that has any journeyman crafting skills.

- In that same vein, it may not be very attractive for a 'mixed' guild to sacrifice their subguild to become a custom crafter. If custom crafting is the player's focus for the character to the point that they are willing to give up their subguild for it, I expect they may want to pick light or heavy mercantile, which get far more crafting skills and at a higher level.

- Player-created MMHs, which are already difficult to get off the ground, may become more difficult, since custom crafting is required to progress through the stages, and custom crafters may become harder to find.

-------

Thoughts? I am sure you can tell where I stand on the issue, but if you guys come up with more pros I'll certainly add them to the list. I don't think the idea is inherently bad at all, but my personal opinion is that it needs a bit of tweaking before it really solves all the problems it's intended to solve, and so that it doesn't create several new problems. I personally wouldn't mind it if heavy mercantile could inherently custom craft, and the rest have to pick the subguild.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 10:00:41 AM by sleepyhead »

WithSprinkles

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Re: Public Discussion of Custom Crafting
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 02:42:19 PM »
(glances over the OP's list)

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. In more detail than I was going to go into.

Folks will probably disagree with me on this, but if the creation aspects of a text game are removed, stripped down, or made unappealing, you begin to drift closer to being a Hack and Slash. Text games don't have graphics, so these communities enjoy making things and prodding at the game world. In a Mud, this is strictly controlled, as opposed to a Mush where it can get a little crazy.

Maybe I am not quite seeing the vision of what staff wants to do here, but I was very excited that we were going from one mercantile class to three. All the others were combatants in some way. And HEY! If I was feeling adventurous, I was looking forward to being able to move a category over on the new chart and still having a little bit of crafting ability to play with while being a bit more buff. All of this appealed to my playstyle. Why would this subclass thing even be considered? Was it that much of a problem?

Delirium

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Re: Public Discussion of Custom Crafting
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 03:50:53 PM »
As someone who loves submitting custom crafts to fill gaps or push plots, I naturally agree with OP. If the custom craft approval and creation system is burdensome, I suggest finding ways to code and streamline the system rather than discourage players by gating it with subguilds.
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sleepyhead

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Re: Public Discussion of Custom Crafting
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2018, 04:32:18 PM »
Yeah, I think some of the arguments in favor of the change have been oversimplifying things by implying that if we were to have 3 guilds that can CC, we would end up with 3 times the number of people playing those guilds than we had when we were limited to merchant. I seriously doubt that.

EDIT: I renamed the thread because when it got shortened, it looked just like the main guild class discussion thread, and I wanted to differentiate them.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 04:40:03 PM by sleepyhead »

Lizzie

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2018, 05:05:41 PM »
Disclaimer: I play merchants fairly often, and I have only *fully* branched one of them. I'm not especially fond of "practicing" things just so you can branch something else.

What I would've loved to see is something more like this:

You pick the master-merchant main class.

You select a focus for your crafts: clothing/armor, stone/jewelry, weapons/tools, or other.

All the related craft skills that come with your selected focus will master, and be master-craftable.
All the OTHER craft skills will only get to the highest "point" of advanced.


I never really understood why someone who is an expert at making jewelry, would also be an expert at making clothes, and weapons, and tents, and armor.
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Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Brytta Léofa

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Re: Public Discussion of Custom Crafting
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2018, 05:06:19 PM »
If the custom craft approval and creation system is burdensome, I suggest finding ways to code and streamline the system rather than discourage players by gating it with subguilds.

Custom crafts would benefit a ton from some work in the Request Tool.

On the player side, it's way too open ended. The tool should guide you through the options (select item type from a dropdown, select material, options, etc. for that object type from a dropdown, type your description...). Ingredient sdescs should be validated by the tool. Special requests ("give a stealth bonus!") should have checkboxes and be gated in some way (you can make one bonus-giving item per RL year or whatever).

Make it so the the only way a player can screw up a custom craft request is by writing an unreasonable or incoherent description.

On the staff side, create a workflow for finishing the item inside the request tool, including number-generation and admin review. (I think I've heard that at one point creating a weapon required looking up values across multiple tables. This isn't a good use of staff time!). Make the damn code help you with ingredient lookup / disambiguation. And if it's not possible to actually modify the database from the request tool, it could still generate the staff commands to create the object.

Make it so your staff effort is mostly just reviewing item descriptions. Numbers, materials, levels, etc. should be enforced by code.

Getting this sort of system to 100% would be hard, but you don't have to do that. Automating almost any part of the pipeline would be helpful.
then the father hen will call his chickens home

WithSprinkles

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018, 05:19:46 PM »
I see what you're saying there, Lizzie.

I obviously don't have THAT many merchants under my belt yet, but I pretty much fully branched one. My thought process for it went, "Alright, they obviously know how to do most things. I'm just going to specialize and have things that they LOVE to do." So that character focused on custom crafts in certain categories if I could help it and rejected most others, especially as I learned the game.

I don't think these things need to be hard coded, just encouraged. Because we're all supposed to be working toward a certain standard. If someone wants to do more things, that's fine, maybe their background supports that. I don't agree with making things that used to be options into constraints.

sleepyhead

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018, 07:27:33 PM »
Maybe I'll try to figure out how to make a tool that makes submissions more foolproof on the player side. It'll still have the problem that not everyone will use it, of course, but maybe it'll help a bit.

Has anyone considered giving Builders the ability to put in submitted custom crafts? That might be another way to help with the workload. I think that if done correctly, custom crafting should not feel like a bunch of extra work for staff, but a way to outsource new game content to players.

Delirium

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2018, 07:28:44 PM »
I think that if done correctly, custom crafting should not feel like a bunch of extra work for staff, but a way to outsource new game content to players.

QFT
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Brokkr

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2018, 07:36:07 PM »
Shalooonsh illustrated the point yesterday on Discord (or maybe the day before) what the issue is with custom crafts.  Its not the copying and pasting descriptions.  It is all the other stuff.

sleepyhead

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2018, 07:40:28 PM »
What other stuff, if you don't mind my asking? I don't think I was present for that. Do you think it's something that could be made easier in some way other than the band-aid solution of severely limiting the number of CCs?

Brytta Léofa

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 07:54:47 PM »
Quote from: Discord
[9:21 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Here's, if I may, the issue as I see it breaking down
[9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Amos the craftdude wants a super awesome blue linen jacket.  He wants this super awesome blue linen jacket for himself, him.  So he writes up his super awesome blue linen jacket, but doesn't want it to be a one off... in case something happens to it, like it gets bitten by a dwarf in the Gaj or something
[9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: so he makes it with blue linen, a sapphire, a piece of ivory, and some gold dye... because he wants it REALLY super awesome
[9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he sends it in.  It has all these extra features on the custom craft request
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: staff reads it over
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: staff then talks about it,... because we do talk about these things
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: there's a lot of discussion about this particular blue jacket over 20 days of wait time
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: then we go back and we say "okay, we need this to be toned down, and also button snaps aren't invented so those need to come out"
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Then he responds... comes back with some counter... he really wants the button snaps
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: we go back and forth on it a bit
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: then
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: after all that... the final design is approved
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it gets made
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it goes through multiple levels of approval, it gets put in to the game
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he makes it once
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he dies
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: AND NO ONE EVER MAKES IT AGAIN
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it adds nothing to the game on long term after all that work went in to it
[9:24 AM] Brokkr: I'd much rather someone submit and staff make a rinthi suitable club that any beginner in club making could make
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: ^THIS^
then the father hen will call his chickens home

sleepyhead

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2018, 08:02:27 PM »
Ah, I did in fact see that, and that's a real problem, but I don't see how it's addressed in any way by tying custom crafting to subguilds. I know you want to see more low-level crafts, but as I've pointed out, none of the new main guilds has a cap in any crafting skill below advanced that I've seen.

Brytta Léofa

  • Posts: 523
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2018, 08:14:26 PM »
A few ideas for getting more game content out of crafting recipes:

1. Easy indie discovery of new recipes:
Quote
> craft rock ?
Here are a few things you could craft with a small, rocky rock and one other ingredient:
 1. a greasy paperweight (stonecrafting, easy)
    from a small, rocky rock and a lump of fatty tallow
(etc.)

2. Promote widespread use of custom crafts. Overhaul the shopkeeper inventory code. If you sell multiple of a craftable item to a shopkeeper, there's a good chance he'll get additional suppliers and add it to his inventory rotation.
Quote
25. your custom craft (many are available)

3. Straight-up give master-level crafters and GMH employees commands to search the crafting recipe database with only minor restrictions. This could bring tons of forgotten content back into the game. (Which might be a problem in its own right, but hey, it starts us working through the problem.)

OTOH I'm not a player who enjoys the recipe-finding minigame; might be that some of you regular merchant players would hate this.
then the father hen will call his chickens home

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 567
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2018, 08:21:46 PM »
Maybe there could be more seeding of shops with these items, too.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 08:24:07 PM by sleepyhead »

azuriolinist

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2018, 12:00:19 AM »
I can see how, when custom crafts disappear into the abyss of the database, they might seem unnecessary. But instead of limiting submissions and gating access to it through specific subguilds, why don't we promote visibility for custom crafts? What sleepyhead and Brytta's suggested, above, are great ideas. Maybe the code could be re-worked so that a shopkeeper's inventory always includes a few randomly-chosen custom crafts appropriate for the shop.

valeria

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2018, 08:54:40 AM »
Pro:

You won't have to master your craft skills to be able to custom craft them.

This is kind of a huge deal for me (it was a takeaway from a Brokkr post I don't have time to find right now), but there will no longer be the wait period of getting everything to master in order to be able to custom craft it.

If you want to roll into the game and design crappy 'rinth knives, you'll be able to do that without having to be a master maker of knives.

Molten Heart

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2018, 09:42:07 AM »
When the new classes go live, will legacy guilds with a crafting subguild be able to submit custom craft items? (until they all eventually die at least)

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 567
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2018, 10:03:31 AM »
Valeria: added that pro to the list. Though I personally think there are other ways to implement that definitely positive change without tying CCing to subguild only.

Molten Heart: Brokkr said that legacy merchants will be able to continue to CC even after the changes.

Insigne

  • Posts: 339
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2018, 01:52:34 PM »
Between what I've seen here and on Discord, one thing that has me excited about this change is the ability to custom craft without being a master in your respective crafting skills (!!!).

I do have to echo the concerns of others in this thread because, compared to the new classes and custom crafting subguild, some changes seem like a step backward when the proposed solution for:
  • custom crafts disappearing into the database forever
  • what might become a heavy workload on staff
... is to shrink the options and versatility that mercantile classes have. I'm confused. Is there something I'm missing? :(

There are a lot of alternative solutions on this thread I can get behind: finding a way to streamline the approval process, promoting commonly available custom crafts by reintroducing old crafts into the game, while still giving mercantile classes the versatility that the other classes have. Is there a chance of considering these?

mansa

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2018, 03:25:42 PM »
Shalooonsh illustrated the point yesterday on Discord (or maybe the day before) what the issue is with custom crafts.  Its not the copying and pasting descriptions.  It is all the other stuff.

I've also heard that it's not in the theme to have twenty versions of the same 'a bone knife' type of dagger.


For us as players, we want to customize as much as possible the characters we play.  We get to do so with our mdesc and sdesc, and in the choices of the equipment we wear, and we want to customize more, which is why we request new types of items.

In my opinion, part of the problem is that what is possible already in the database isn't accessible to the players, so we submit items we think are unique, but are actually duplicates.

A way to solve this problem is to open up portions of the database so we could search for items instead of trying to duplicate efforts.  This requires code and maybe a large overhaul of code.

It could also be solved by creating a separate database of items and letting the players search through that, instead of the source files.  That also requires time and energy to set up and maintain, but using newer technology so it might be easier.

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sleepyhead

  • Posts: 567
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 04:46:57 PM »
I'm afraid subclass choice for crafters is going to be really boring with this change. Designing characters will be much more fun with combat characters than with merchants, who will be forced to choose whether to sacrifice the fun and versatility of a real, well-rounded subguild for a single ability they can only use once a month, but allows them their only chance to be truly creative with crafting. Combat guilds are forced into no such choice. Imagine if the parry skill was only granted through a subguild with only that skill and maybe one other. Or they'd be allowed to join AoD, the Byn, or the Garrison and get access to parry, albeit with the understanding that they'd lose it once they leave those clans.

People would feel that this was an unfair and restrictive choice, and I think it's the same for CCing.

Sure, a lot of non-warrior fighters never managed to actually branch parry, just like a lot of non-GMH merchants never got around to submitting CCs, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't care if parry is taken away because they weren't using it anyway. In fact, the new classes seem to be geared towards making getting important skills like parry a lot more feasible.

Now, granted, CCing is different from parry because it requires player creativity and staff work, but I think the comparison still stands in some ways; parry is seen as an integral part of playing a fighter, just as CCing is seen as an integral part of playing a merchant.

If the crafting system was a little less awkward to begin with, I might be able to get behind a change like this. If there was a system with which a crafter could combine designs, materials, and ornamental details to automatically generate crafts with some level of customization, then severely restricting the ability to actually write up new items wouldn't be such a big deal. But right now, as I pointed out in the Discord, you can make an obsidian spider or a basalt braxat. If someone asks you to make an obsidian braxat, you have to look at them like they are insane. It's clunky and weird and the only way around it is through the custom crafting system.

If we want to see less fancy CCs and we also want CCs to be restricted somehow to reduce staff workload, I think there are more elegant ways to go about it. Here's one that I just made up off the top of my head:

- Either no class inherently gets the ability to CC, or perhaps only heavy mercantile. Maybe even only artisan. That's a balance issue that staff would know better than me how to make a decision about.

- Give everyone 1 karma by default. Expand karma to a 4-point scale. Of course, when players spend this karma, they have to wait to regenerate it, so it still has a function even if everyone gets it by default.

- Brand spanking newbies get access to extended subclasses, but not touched. Touched are bumped up to two karma. Elemental aspects are 3 or 4. Basically, everything but mundane extended subs are bumped up a karma point. Newbies are not inherently closer to magick subclasses than they ever were.

- 1 karma point can be spent on the ability to custom craft your main class skills. This will be in addition to the cost of your subclass. So if you want to play, say, a laborer/slipknife custom crafter, that'd cost you 2 karma, which you'd have to wait to regenerate.

- You can special app the ability to custom craft as long as the combination you want to play would cost only 1 more than the amount of karma you have.

- If you wanna play a mul, krathi agony/devastation, or whiran travel/illusion who is also a custom crafter, you'll always have to special app it.

- I'm not sure how the system would handle sorcerers or psionicists who want to CC. I love the idea of letting them do it (imagine the crazy crafts a sorcerer might come up with!) but I'll leave this one up to staff to handle. Maybe it could just be a matter of selling staff on your CCing sorcerer concept.

This system would solve a lot of the CC issues and be far more versatile, and would tackle some other problems while it's at it! Custom crafting would be limited, while still allowing newbies access to it. In addition, newbies would have access to extended subclasses right off the bat, but they'd not be able to play them every single character unless they learned to have a bit of longevity. This would help address a lot of complaints about newbies being locked out of extended subclasses, which have a bit more oomph but aren't inherently more challenging to RP. (Power-wise, I'm far more worried about extended subguilds in the hands of vets than total newbies who don't even know how to branch skills yet.)

As Brokkr has told us is important to him, subclass choice would matter, since you'd have to consider what you want to/are able to spend the karma for on top of your ability to CC. You might see more of a mix of regular and extended subguilds. Magickers who are crafters could continue to make their own magickal RP props, as long as their players are willing to spend the karma/put in the spec app for it. And I think with a system like this, you'd see a lot more 'mixed' classes such as laborer with lower crafting skill caps opting for the ability to CC if they don't have to give up their subguild for it, potentially leading to more of the humbler crafts staff has been after.

But this is just ONE idea, and I think there are many other potential systems one could come up with that incorporate all of the great PROs with fewer of the CONs. Anyone feel like improving upon my suggestions?

EDIT: I know all of this sounds complicated, but it actually isn't. It's really quite simple if you're willing to suffer through my bad explanation of it. Please bear with me; I'm not much of a writer!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 04:50:41 PM by sleepyhead »

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 567
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2018, 05:17:37 PM »
Just realized that with this system, the karma-thrifty might choose a non-extended crafting subguild (such as regular stonecarver, jeweler, tailor, etc.) along with the ability to CC. Which will lead to even more lower-level CCs. Sweet!

Basically, my idea is that at the end of chargen, if you have a karma point to spare after your race/subguild choice as well as eventual access to at least one CC-friendly crafting skill, Ginka would ask you if you want to spend 1 karma on this character to unlock the ability to custom craft. Perhaps it could even remind you which crafting skills you would be able to use to CC, if it would be simple enough to code that function, but it's not necessary.

Delirium

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2018, 07:41:18 PM »
While I mostly agree with Sleepyhead, to play devil's advocate, if you pick a subguild with customcraft like apothecary, armor crafter, etc, those would be, in roleplay terms, the things your character is best at, or focuses on, and therefore the things you'd come up with new recipes for. If you want the option to be able to custom craft everything you can craft, i.e. with a heavy mercantile guild, you pick the customcraft subguild. So it's not as bad as I initially thought. You just have to think over what you want to be able to custom craft. There's a much wider spread of skills now, too, so even merchant types aren't shoehorned into doing nothing but crafting, even without a fancy subguild. They even have a little bit of fighting skill - for example Dune Traders look survivable, though you wouldn't want to stick around too long in a real fight.
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sleepyhead

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2018, 07:50:03 PM »
Yeah, I like that, and that's great. That's definitely a pro. Unfortunately, that doesn't help magickers, though, and while I know it's unhealthy to fixate on gickers too much, I think we really will lose potential for some interesting crafts by declaring that they can't CC anymore. We opened up their ability to CC when extended subs came in, and then further so when they were subguilded. We wanted them to be more realistic, well-rounded people. Why take away from them now? It's not like magick + CCing is OP or something, after all.

I know personally of at least one amazingly creative ritual item created by a clanned tribal magicker. As an indie tribal gicker I almost MC'd an altar, although I ended up dying before it was complete. It's sad to see that potential taken away already. It's the superstitious/religious/spiritual side of CC's that is going to lose out here, unfortunately, and that's a side I feel really passionate about.

Delirium

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2018, 08:21:46 PM »
Good point. Besides. Are people gonna start guild sniffing magickers by figuring out if they can custom craft? Heh.
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azuriolinist

  • Posts: 418
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2018, 08:24:35 PM »
I agree with sleepyhead. I love the objective of the concept for customcrafting, and the wider variety (in terms of quality) of craft items that it prospectively offers. But I would wholeheartedly support giving the player a more flexible choice in gaining the ability to customcraft.

There's a ways this can be done while still limiting it so that there aren't a barrage of customcraft submissions. There were a lot of suggestions up on this thread, including sleepyhead's, that are great examples.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 567
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2018, 08:26:57 PM »
Delirium -- Yeah, I think that will happen, except it will be more like they watch you to see if you ever CC anything and then rule you out as a magicker whenever you do. I'm not sure it will happen the other way around, where they OOCly decide you must be a witch if they don't see you CC, though some people may be rash enough to jump to conclusions like that.

The new guilds are otherwise very good about getting rid of (sub)guild sniffers, so this is kind of a noticeable flaw.

azuriolinist -- Thanks. Sometimes it feels like I'm shouting alone into the void about all this, so it's good to know there are other players who care about this change and would like to see it be implemented in the best way possible.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 242
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2018, 09:57:29 PM »
I see no reason whatsoever to make custom crafting exclusive to a subguild. It is rare enough that custom items ever get put into the game, it would be a hindrance to make it anymore exclusive than it already is.
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Strongheart

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2018, 10:04:17 PM »
Let's take into consideration that once your character dies in Arm, that character is more than likely never going to come back. With that said, if these custom crafts are causing work overload, then maybe (along with the many ideas posted on this thread) allow Builders the opportunities to also work with these submitted custom crafts. Or come up with more solutions that do not limit the options players have to help add to the world further.
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Strongheart

  • Posts: 242
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2018, 10:07:51 PM »
Also, creativity should be encouraged. Disallowing magickers, for example, from crafting unique items tailored for magical purposes would discourage creative opportunities.
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valeria

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2018, 10:09:42 PM »
Builders can only enter the item itself.  We aren't staff, so we aren't involved in the discussion of pros and cons or feedback and back and forth with the player, and we can't put in the crafting recipe (for technological limitation reasons, it seems).

Strongheart

  • Posts: 242
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2018, 10:10:48 PM »
Builders can only enter the item itself.  We aren't staff, so we aren't involved in the discussion of pros and cons or feedback and back and forth with the player, and we can't put in the crafting recipe (for technological limitation reasons, it seems).

I see... thank you for informing me.
Greater love hath no one than this, that one lay down their life for their friends.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 242
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2018, 10:11:28 PM »
My thoughts: just give heavy mercantile classes custom crafting because it makes sense. Done.
Greater love hath no one than this, that one lay down their life for their friends.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 242
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2018, 09:11:00 PM »
This seems like a quiet thread. Anyone out there have anymore opinions on the matter?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 09:51:39 PM by Strongheart »
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Morrolan

  • Posts: 2758
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2018, 01:19:27 AM »
I'd like to recommend a complexity-dependent lag time after an item is CC'd. Instead of one CC per month, I'd like to see one every one to five months.

After creating a CC item, there would be a lag of one RL month per skill level of the item. After a master-level item, there would be a five months waiting period.

With that, we could ditch the custom crafting subguild idea. [I'd rather have the lag before, but it would be harder to manage.]



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Delirium

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2018, 01:35:49 AM »
You're already limited to 12 items per real life year. Twelve.. per YEAR. That's not very many at all.
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WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 405
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2018, 02:05:50 AM »
Using up more than one of someone's monthly allotment on a single craft is already done depending on complexity and one's GM. I've had to not only use what amounted to about THREE MONTHS on a craft before, but then someone ELSE had to donate ONE MONTH to lend an assist to help complete it. I think that is the only time I've done that, but I've been willing and volunteered to give extra months on things when I knew they were a doozy of a project. I don't want months snatched away as a matter of course when they don't have to be or it is not warranted.

This is with logs and RP of objects being made and myself and other people having obviously researched so that we could approach doing the crafts correctly. Others would be moving around us and watching as we worked. People do this with small monthly crafts all the time. It leads to interesting IG discussions between merchants who debate over this technique or that and admiring how one person or another does something. Then sometimes those methods get passed down as others do what older characters did before them. People that enjoy this type of thing LIKE doing it. I think as much as combat characters enjoy what they do.

I feel a bit stuck here because I like trying to offer solutions when I disagree, but I sort of have nothing to offer at the moment except to say I don't like it. I am not at all for linking this to a subguild. I like the idea of having to app so that people can use GCP to tack the ability onto their characters, as someone suggested earlier, if we must. Otherwise this is just a  :-\ from me.

Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2018, 07:52:55 AM »
I honestly despise the idea. It severely limits merchant characters.

Just give Heavy Mercantile CCing.
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PriestlySiren

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2018, 08:58:15 AM »
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for the change. There are going to be two subclass related ways to be able to custom craft - by choosing an extended subclass or by choosing a subclass that allows you to custom craft. The concept of your crafty Mccraftsperson is to make ccs and you don't have karma. This would assume that your Craftyface is innovative and more creative than Joe Schmoe over there. This meaning you could custom create a whole slew of things because you've got creativity out the butt, but you're so creative, it is your hobby - rather than going out and being an outdoorsman. What other skill set do you really need? You want a little combat? Roll a light merch/ccer. There are ways to be able to CC without limiting what you want to play - unless you plan on mastering everything and CCing everything. People should only really focus on one type of craft, maybe. Which is where extended subclasses come in.

You roll up a fantastic soldier, this soldier is great with the fighting and the following orders. BUT your soldier has a secret passion for quilting and you use a CGP to get the extended subclass that allows you to CC. This, to me, gives the soldier a chance to create something he is passionate about. I think that these kinds of hobbies might happen to the exclusion of other subclasses. Now, if your soldier gets particularly good at sewing unique pretties and really would rather do that  and catches the interest of Kadius who brings them in to sew and create because they've got crafters, but no one that focuses on the custom aspect of it, then that adds for a GMH's desire to diversify rather than hiring two crafters who master everything.
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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2018, 09:25:25 AM »
I appreciate the application of CC subclassing. But what about magickers who want to make their own things every now and then? What about people who want to use their subclass for something actually useful and that would round out their character, instead of a CC 'allowance'?

What about people who app a Heavy Mercantile, and thus already have SO much put into "I'm a merchanty person and that's all I do and I'm fucking worthless otherwise", and just want a little bit of scan or hunt or /something/ useful on top of that, not just "now you can actually use what you apped for!".

And let's be honest here. Diversifying GMHs would be better if there were actually players who could settle into that diversity. As it is, with the different allotments of what's craftable for each of the three heavy mercantile classes, it's ""diverse"" enough as is, but on top of that, there's REALLY not enough players to justify having 5 "diverse" crafters per GMH.

Think about it. We average say, 34 to 40 players on peak. If every GMH had 5 "diverse" crafters, a couple merchants, an agent... Over HALF of ALL active players at that time would be merchant classes. That's just stupid and unreasonable to expect.

On top of that, nobody is saying "oh, I want to craft everything ever!", and with the new guilds crafting everything ever isn't possible anyway. We're just saying that there needs to be a way for CCing to be accessible to characters who don't want to 100% devote themself in every single aspect to 'YEP THIS IS ME IM MERCHANT MCMERCHANTFACE AND THIS IS ALL I WILL EVER DO'. Because sitting in an office spamcrafting is boring as fuck, sometimes you want to hit things, or get involved in plots, or have the ability to see if someone is hiding somewhere - that's what subguilds are /for/. Things you can do other than your 'main focus'. Subguilds / subclasses shouldn't be an on-off switch for something merchant-guilds used to innately get. That EXTREMELY limits character diversity on the whole, disallows any magickal crafters, disallows merchants from having secondary hobbies whatsoever, devalues heavy mercantile even further and encourages light mercantile AT MOST so characters have SOME secondary ability, and gives a big middle finger to not only the ability for CCing to further plots, but for the appeal of CCing overall.

Imagine if, if you wanted to be a Byn Sergeant or an Arm Corporal, you had to choose the 'Leadership' subguild with the hopes of one day being able to apply it, once you skilled up enough and proved yourself. It takes a special, focused person to be a leader, after all! You'll just have to deal with being First Trooper unless you ENTIRELY set yourself to this possibility! Imagine if, if you wanted to pilot an argosy instead of a wagon, you needed the 'Argosy Pilot' subguild that just gives you an on-switch for the piloting skill you already had. Wagons are good enough, anyone can pilot a wagon, deal with just having wagons!

We don't have the playerbase to start locking everything behind inane, stupid requirements that weren't there before, limiting and focusing any and all character creation ideas, blowing out plot points, and still expect everyone to be happy and content.

If we're expected to have a Clothworking Light Mercantile & Customcrafting Subguild, a Leatherworking & CCing, and so on, for EVERY GMH, guess what's going to happen? GMH's will just die, or thrive off of legacy merchants that still exist and are too afraid to take any risks with their character or get involved in plots in case they let everyone down by dying and having to make a new char.

This also pisses all over offpeak players.

A CCing subguild is a neat idea. It allows for diversity, if handled right. But making it the ONLY option is fucking stupid and limits things way more than is reasonable. Allow Heavy Mercantile to CC, and allow CC'ing flags to be unlocked on Special App, too. THEN we're talking - then we're not only at where we were before, but we give 3 different avenues to access CC, ALL of which are reasonable, not disruptive, and make sense.

Why should every warrior and ranger be able to do whatever they want with their subguild, take a side-job as a potter, but EVERY merchant who wants to have any long-term worth or further plots or be able to make their own cool things HAVE to take this subguild and limit them?

Why should there grow an OOC meta acceptance that every focused merchant has no chance whatsoever of being a magicker, and thus is incredibly trustworthy? Or that no merchant could POSSIBLY have a side-hobby of poisoning? Why should there grow an OOC meta acceptance that merchants are even weaker, even less broadly possible to have little tricks up their sleeve, and thus easier to kill or assassinate than ever, ever before? Why should there be a grand endless possibility before every other player in the game but merchants, who have to sit in an office and spamcraft and NOTHING else, and be happy with it? What happened to murder, corruption, and betrayal, when a fourth of the playerbase can never ever aspire to do any of those, because they have to give up their little "you didn't expect this, did you?" card to be a good pure perfect merchant who does nothing but sit still and be content?

CC subclassing is a neat little idea. An allowance for mixed and light-mercantile classes to further their own plots, should they desire. But for it to be the only possible option is an idea that should be seen for what it is: Restrictive, limiting, primitive, and fucking ridiculous.

Heavy Mercantiles are already quite limited in what they can do, even with their 'ace up their sleeve' Subguilds. ALLOW THEM TO CC.

Allow people to app a CC flag through special apping and a use of one special app point thing. Something other than ONLY a CC subguild.

ON TOP of all this, the thing that I've realised in my year of playing Armageddon is that not everything is obvious from the outset. Your character's backstory can evolve over time, you may get into the character and realise they want things less clearly evident than what you initially expected. Maybe instead of working for Kadius, they want to be a Bynner who stays back and helps people by making armours and weapons for them, and using a bow in the meantime. And maybe when they give up on that, they get an offer to join a MMH that's growing.

"Oh, yeah I craft outfits, but I also like shooting a bow!" "Oh so you can't customcraft then, well, I'm not hiring you."

"I love to make cures, but I make weapons too!" "Yes, yes, but how confident would you be in making 'specialised items', wink wink nudge nudge?"

You can either choose to only let your character ever ever ever ever sit down and make things, or never let them join in on any opportunities they would have otherwise had. Never let them get interested in a new MMH. Never let them hastily make a sloppy attempt at cure-brewing to save their bleeding-out friend. Never let them suddenly reveal they've been a magicker all along in private, ruining relationships and betraying trust.

A CC subguild being the only option strips away so much playability, so much diversity, than what is currently evident.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 09:52:58 AM by MatisseOrOtherwise »
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It's always lizard time.

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The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

rinthrat

  • Posts: 12
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2018, 09:48:12 AM »
Quote from: Discord
[9:21 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Here's, if I may, the issue as I see it breaking down
[9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Amos the craftdude wants a super awesome blue linen jacket.  He wants this super awesome blue linen jacket for himself, him.  So he writes up his super awesome blue linen jacket, but doesn't want it to be a one off... in case something happens to it, like it gets bitten by a dwarf in the Gaj or something
[9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: so he makes it with blue linen, a sapphire, a piece of ivory, and some gold dye... because he wants it REALLY super awesome
[9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he sends it in.  It has all these extra features on the custom craft request
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: staff reads it over
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: staff then talks about it,... because we do talk about these things
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: there's a lot of discussion about this particular blue jacket over 20 days of wait time
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: then we go back and we say "okay, we need this to be toned down, and also button snaps aren't invented so those need to come out"
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Then he responds... comes back with some counter... he really wants the button snaps
[9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: we go back and forth on it a bit
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: then
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: after all that... the final design is approved
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it gets made
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it goes through multiple levels of approval, it gets put in to the game
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he makes it once
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he dies
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: AND NO ONE EVER MAKES IT AGAIN
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it adds nothing to the game on long term after all that work went in to it
[9:24 AM] Brokkr: I'd much rather someone submit and staff make a rinthi suitable club that any beginner in club making could make
[9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: ^THIS^

Most of this could be alleviated by letting people submit CCs that are
  • Craftable and
  • Have a limited number of ingredients (one or two) so there is a realistic chance of other crafters discovering them in game

It's nearly impossible, mathematically, to randomly find a recipe with 4 or 5 ingredients and hundreds of materials. But recipes with one or two items are actually discoverable unless the player submitting them goes oet of the way to use obscure ingredients. Hopefully, it'd also limit the fanciness, because you just can't do that much with just two materials.

Why not let anyone do this, and just restrict the fancier or one-shot items by the subclass?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 09:55:13 AM by rinthrat »

Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2018, 09:59:34 AM »
    Quote from: Discord
    [9:21 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Here's, if I may, the issue as I see it breaking down
    [9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Amos the craftdude wants a super awesome blue linen jacket.  He wants this super awesome blue linen jacket for himself, him.  So he writes up his super awesome blue linen jacket, but doesn't want it to be a one off... in case something happens to it, like it gets bitten by a dwarf in the Gaj or something
    [9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: so he makes it with blue linen, a sapphire, a piece of ivory, and some gold dye... because he wants it REALLY super awesome
    [9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he sends it in.  It has all these extra features on the custom craft request
    [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: staff reads it over
    [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: staff then talks about it,... because we do talk about these things
    [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: there's a lot of discussion about this particular blue jacket over 20 days of wait time
    [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: then we go back and we say "okay, we need this to be toned down, and also button snaps aren't invented so those need to come out"
    [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Then he responds... comes back with some counter... he really wants the button snaps
    [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: we go back and forth on it a bit
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: then
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: after all that... the final design is approved
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it gets made
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it goes through multiple levels of approval, it gets put in to the game
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he makes it once
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he dies
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: AND NO ONE EVER MAKES IT AGAIN
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it adds nothing to the game on long term after all that work went in to it
    [9:24 AM] Brokkr: I'd much rather someone submit and staff make a rinthi suitable club that any beginner in club making could make
    [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: ^THIS^

    Most of this could be alleviated by letting people submit CCs that are
    • Craftable and
    • Have a limited number of ingredients (one or two) so there is a realistic chance of other crafters discovering them in game

    It's nearly impossible, mathematically, to randomly find a recipe with 4 or 5 ingredients and hundreds of materials. But recipes with one or two items are actually discoverable unless the player submitting them goes oet of the way to use obscure ingredients. Hopefully, it'd also limit the fanciness, because you just can't do that much with just two materials.

    Why not let anyone do this, and just restrict the fancier or one-shot items by the subclass?[/list]

    I've said it in the discord but I'll say it here, too.

    If staff wants simple stupid clubs, ask for them. If staff wants rinthi-suitable panties, ask for them. Let people submit them. Don't put the onus on every crafter to add to the game on your behalf instead of furthering their own goals or desires or adding to their own entertainment and enjoyment of the game.

    We're not all psionicists. If you desperately wish for players to make a big dildo made out of scrab shell, tell us, and let us submit it without using up one of our monthly 'cool thing' allowances. We don't know otherwise.

    And, here's a cool protip! Limiting who can CC, limiting who is allowed to make their monthly 'cool thing'? That's only going to make LESS of your dull rinthi clubs happen, because if I used my entire character creation to revolve around the ability to customcraft, why would I waste my time doing that instead of furthering an MMH, furthering plots, making my own cool things, unless I wanted to brown-nose to the extreme?

    Nobody who is having to hyper-focus into the ability to CC is going to then desire to waste their CC'ing ability to further admin and staff desires.
    Quote
    It's always lizard time.

    Quote
    The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

    rinthrat

    • Posts: 12
    Re: Custom Crafting
    « Reply #43 on: June 24, 2018, 10:11:10 AM »
      Quote from: Discord
      [9:21 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Here's, if I may, the issue as I see it breaking down
      [9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Amos the craftdude wants a super awesome blue linen jacket.  He wants this super awesome blue linen jacket for himself, him.  So he writes up his super awesome blue linen jacket, but doesn't want it to be a one off... in case something happens to it, like it gets bitten by a dwarf in the Gaj or something
      [9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: so he makes it with blue linen, a sapphire, a piece of ivory, and some gold dye... because he wants it REALLY super awesome
      [9:22 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he sends it in.  It has all these extra features on the custom craft request
      [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: staff reads it over
      [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: staff then talks about it,... because we do talk about these things
      [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: there's a lot of discussion about this particular blue jacket over 20 days of wait time
      [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: then we go back and we say "okay, we need this to be toned down, and also button snaps aren't invented so those need to come out"
      [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: Then he responds... comes back with some counter... he really wants the button snaps
      [9:23 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: we go back and forth on it a bit
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: then
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: after all that... the final design is approved
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it gets made
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it goes through multiple levels of approval, it gets put in to the game
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he makes it once
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: he dies
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: AND NO ONE EVER MAKES IT AGAIN
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: it adds nothing to the game on long term after all that work went in to it
      [9:24 AM] Brokkr: I'd much rather someone submit and staff make a rinthi suitable club that any beginner in club making could make
      [9:24 AM] Shal LeBooonsh: ^THIS^

      Most of this could be alleviated by letting people submit CCs that are
      • Craftable and
      • Have a limited number of ingredients (one or two) so there is a realistic chance of other crafters discovering them in game

      It's nearly impossible, mathematically, to randomly find a recipe with 4 or 5 ingredients and hundreds of materials. But recipes with one or two items are actually discoverable unless the player submitting them goes oet of the way to use obscure ingredients. Hopefully, it'd also limit the fanciness, because you just can't do that much with just two materials.

      Why not let anyone do this, and just restrict the fancier or one-shot items by the subclass?[/list]

      I've said it in the discord but I'll say it here, too.

      If staff wants simple stupid clubs, ask for them. If staff wants rinthi-suitable panties, ask for them. Let people submit them. Don't put the onus on every crafter to add to the game on your behalf instead of furthering their own goals or desires or adding to their own entertainment and enjoyment of the game.

      We're not all psionicists. If you desperately wish for players to make a big dildo made out of scrab shell, tell us, and let us submit it without using up one of our monthly 'cool thing' allowances. We don't know otherwise.

      And, here's a cool protip! Limiting who can CC, limiting who is allowed to make their monthly 'cool thing'? That's only going to make LESS of your dull rinthi clubs happen, because if I used my entire character creation to revolve around the ability to customcraft, why would I waste my time doing that instead of furthering an MMH, furthering plots, making my own cool things, unless I wanted to brown-nose to the extreme?

      Nobody who is having to hyper-focus into the ability to CC is going to then desire to waste their CC'ing ability to further admin and staff desires.

      What does that have to do with my post?

      I want to make shitty rinth clubs, not uber fancy CCs. But I'm also not willing to give up my subguild just to do that, or to roll up a crafter who is limited to crafting existing items - it gets old so fast.
      « Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 10:20:42 AM by rinthrat »

      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #44 on: June 24, 2018, 10:14:56 AM »
      That was in response to your quote - sorry!
      Quote
      It's always lizard time.

      Quote
      The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

      Brokkr

      • Administrator
      • Posts: 549
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #45 on: June 24, 2018, 10:57:31 AM »
      Tone down the vitriol, this is your only warning.

      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #46 on: June 24, 2018, 10:59:53 AM »
      Apologies. I let my feelings on this topic get the better of my sensibilities.

      In clarification, I will respect staff and their decision on this no matter what. I'm just a bit frustrated.
      Quote
      It's always lizard time.

      Quote
      The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

      valeria

      • Posts: 5693
        • I have a writing blog.
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #47 on: June 24, 2018, 11:00:58 AM »
      On reflection, I also think that heavy mercantile should be allowed to just custom craft, perhaps as one of their "abilities."  Like certain groups get forage for wildnerness food or whatnot.

      sleepyhead

      • Posts: 567
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #48 on: June 24, 2018, 11:30:19 AM »
      Yes. This is important to me. Let's not get this discussion locked please.

      JohnMichaelHenry

      • Posts: 91
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #49 on: June 24, 2018, 01:54:03 PM »
      I thought Lizzie had a good idea about having to choose something to focus on. Without the penalty not being able to master everything. The heavy merch could choose something at any time, not necessarily during character creation, but after it is chosen that's it. They will only be able to custom craft things from that category. Extended subs would get to custom craft whatever they chose. Master Armorer can custom armor. That way, If you choose heavy merch and custom crafting means that much to you, you can choose an extended subguild AND one other category from your regular skill list.

      I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but it seems like this would cut down on the work by a lot for staff, and still let folks flesh out their concepts. They could even just add their choice in their bio, so staff could just look at it easily, there wouldn't have to be any code added.
      “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
      ― Michael Scott, The Warlock

      sleepyhead

      • Posts: 567
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #50 on: June 24, 2018, 02:02:53 PM »
      I would be OK with that.

      valeria

      • Posts: 5693
        • I have a writing blog.
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #51 on: June 24, 2018, 04:22:54 PM »
      I'm not sure how making you limit your focus would cut down on the work load, because you only get one craft a month.  It doesn't matter how many crafting skills you have.  So that's still a single submission a month, regardless.

      sleepyhead

      • Posts: 567
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #52 on: June 24, 2018, 04:36:51 PM »
      True. I think it'd be more to address the whole jack-of-all-trades-and-also-master-of-all 'crafting savant' issue, but that isn't one of the problems Brokkr mentioned trying to solve with this change.

      JohnMichaelHenry

      • Posts: 91
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #53 on: June 24, 2018, 04:51:13 PM »
      Well, if Lord Fancypants wants a mastercrafted sword, he would have to go to Salarr, or find someone who specialized in swordmaking, along with every other person who wants a custom blade, so all those blades would have to go to the same person or persons, and not just anyone who could mastercraft swords. The limiting would come in when not every single crafter can custom craft everything on their skills list, so if there is say, only five people in the game who chose swordmaking, along with the once a month thing, thats a max of five custom swords that could be submitted each month. It would force the crafter also to be careful with picking who to make custom blades for.

      Also, since staff is saying the choice of the custom craft subguild would allow anyone with crafting skill at any level to custom make, that would mean all the classes with crafting can submit custom crafts. This seems like it has the potential to increase workload. Provided folks gave up their subguild to get it.

      Not to mention it makes RP sense in my mind at least, to only be able to custom make things of one or two kinds. And give the impression of, Oh yea! That Amos fella sure can make a fine sword. You should go see him if you want a good sword made.

      Edited: Another idea if this won't actually suffice, and someone already suggested it I think, would be just to make custom crafting an Artisan only ability. Since they seem the least versatile out of the heavy mercantile group, this would give people a reason to choose them, and definitely cut down on work for staff. And by the way, I think they should get watch also. Seems to make RP sense, and it is not an overpowered perception skill.
      « Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 07:05:09 PM by JohnMichaelHenry »
      “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
      ― Michael Scott, The Warlock

      WithSprinkles

      • Posts: 405
      Re: Custom Crafting
      « Reply #54 on: June 24, 2018, 08:12:10 PM »
      Hmm..

      I would be very choosy about where I spent my craft slots if I had to tack on a crafting subguild or specialize. A person could join a Merchant House and not have to think about the subguild, but I think joining a house for the meta reason of essentially having a second subguild is a lame reason to stuff those clans.

      If someone is not in a Merchant House, but striking out on their own, I'm pretty sure their crafts are vulnerable to getting ripped off and spread all over the place. Is this still the case? If so, this isn't ideal for a startup Trading Company. If there were some initial protections for crafts earlier in a Trading Company's existence, it might encourage people to keep their recipes simpler. When a character trying to make a Company dies, THEN release their recipes into the wild. Give them a chance before letting others look over their designs.

      Depending on how narrow it is, specialization would make crafters focus on the more popular skills. People who didn't would be looked at like unicorns. Commission work in general would be more difficult to come by (more so than it can sometimes be now). I also think the more rigidly crafts got controlled the less likely people would want to bother wasting their time making low quality crafts.

      Cats and dogs living together - Mass hysteria! Eeesh! I don't mean to be all doom and gloom or sound like I think the sky is falling and crafting as we know it is coming to an end.. I would hate that. My characters have too much shopping to do.

      I'll keep chiming in here, but I'll give the change the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure the addition of the subguild won't just be the ability for people to do this ONE thing. That wouldn't be fun for the crafters OR combat folk that have to give something so important up for it.
      « Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 08:13:48 PM by WithSprinkles »