Author Topic: Public Discussion of New Classes  (Read 2568 times)

Speciation

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2018, 06:01:59 PM »
I think it's fine for city classes to have both brew and poisoning (Miscreant) since getting the herbs needed for the poison would be the tricky part but the problem I see with Stalker is that they are suited for getting the herbs, making the poisons, AND applying them to their own weapons. So instead of promoting interaction between classes and players, the Stalker can just do everything on their own like the current Ranger but are a little worse at fighting/shooting. I think Stalkers could be a little worse at poisoning since their focus is more on knowledge and survival rather than assassins without backstab but riding and archery. I just would like to see poisons as a more niche thing instead of everyone running a bag full of every cure and three poisoned knives on their belt at all times. Maybe this could be solved with a change to poison to make it last for a limited amount of time and be a reward for being prepared before a fight.

SuchDragonWow

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2018, 07:38:58 PM »
I took a few hours to make a chart thingy, because I needed to look at it, and break it down.  I realize not all skills are equal, but one person's backstab is another person's jeweler, so whatever, I didn't want to debate that.  Just a numbers breakdown.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g5Hyi-OI9eevFhT5vpfex5Mr4H50WJZChenirKOFrOI/edit?usp=sharing

While making the chart, I already had a few thoughts, but I want to catch up in the thread before I make some points.
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Brokkr

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2018, 07:57:06 PM »
Interestingly, I started with a chart that looks quite similar to that, to help assign skills.  It didn't work quite the same, and was really so I could visually see patterns of who had which skills, and how they flowed across classes.

Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2018, 07:59:59 PM »
So, from that chart, it seems Infiltrator /is/ objectively the weakest.
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Brokkr

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2018, 08:01:58 PM »
The chart ignores advice I've given about how the skills cascade, so not really.

SuchDragonWow

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2018, 08:06:06 PM »
So, from that chart, it seems Infiltrator /is/ objectively the weakest.

The chart isn't necessarily meant to convey any balance, as objectively, stonecrafting, for instance, is worse than jewelrycrafting.  It just is.

Interestingly, I started with a chart that looks quite similar to that, to help assign skills.  It didn't work quite the same, and was really so I could visually see patterns of who had which skills, and how they flowed across classes.

Exactly, I just have to have something to look at so I can ingest it all, and make an objective assessment.  That said, I've caught up in the thread, and I wanted to make a few points of my own.

1)  Flavor wise, I do agree that it would be cooler to have Adventurer get chopping instead of bludgeoning.

2)  Did I miss something, or does trample no longer exist?  I thought I used it recently ...

3)  Shouldn't Soldier get Blind Fighting, as well?  Maybe at advanced, like the other light combats.

4)  I noticed Subdue is the only skill given at Apprentice.  Furthermore, it is capped for all classes at Advanced.  What's the possibility of maybe staging it up one tier, so that Advanced = Master, Journeyman = Advanced, etc.?
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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2018, 08:08:36 PM »


4)  I noticed Subdue is the only skill given at Apprentice.  Furthermore, it is capped for all classes at Advanced.  What's the possibility of maybe staging it up one tier, so that Advanced = Master, Journeyman = Advanced, etc.?

It was mentioned on the discord that only certain roles get given master subdue because reasons, I believe.
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Vox

  • Posts: 396
Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2018, 08:23:52 PM »

Miscreant currently has the most rogue appeal and the most assassin cross-over, but backstab and sap at levels far lower than an assassin would need to be reliable methods of attack. (honestly, Miscreant looks like a ton of out of the box rogue fun though)

Harder to OHK and thus needing to rely on something else is an intentional weakness for the Miscreant.

Enforcer has assassin quality backstab and sap but without the stealth component to make them reliable methods of surprise attack. (assuming you can get both piercing and bludgeoning up past advanced to even branch them) But so far as brutal thug goes, Enforcer looks epic (save for a baffling lack of scan/listen.)

The lack of scan/listen is an intentional weakness.  As are lack of brew/poison.  The idea was killers, probably of opportunity or planning, not folks with the skills to hunt down/detect and kill folks.(without a subguild at least)

I mean, if you're feeling randy just give Miscreant high backstab/sap and you have the perfect rogue class. Individual playstyles will then determine how assassiny/pickpockety/burglary a character actually ends up being but they'd have the potential to master it all in time if they really wanted and that was their concept.

Miscreant as is is pretty close to that Overpowered line as is.  Close enough I'm not sure which side it falls on.

I'm just mourning the death of Assassin as an archetype here, I'm gonna need some time to process. :)

R.I.P. Assassins, we never really knew you.*

Mostly because our vision just went black and then we saw the mantis head.

Thanks for taking the time to address my thoughts and for the enormous amount of work, care and planning that clearly went into the creation of these classes. While I certainly mourn the death of the archetypes, (since I'm a grizzled vet that's played Arm for the last 23 years), I have no doubt things will evolve as further player-experience is gained in 'real'-world scenarios and updates to subguilds occur, in the meantime I really appreciate the transparency and the willingness to discuss these things.

My next question is: since the creation of these classes seems to blend various subguild mechanics with previous archetype mechanics, will there be MAGE versions? Something that's like 'Destruction Krathi' for example that has a collection of spells and flavored combat skills allowing for a subguild to be chosen then for flavor like other classes?  That way I could be a Miscreant/Destruction Krathi if I wanted to be a rogue who manifested.. or a Destruction Krathi/master jeweler if I manifested younger.  Perhaps there could even be some sort of 'cost' for choosing a main-class mage in which you got a few more spell possibilities but would have a series of flavor echoes randomly spawn around you as your spells raised in power. Indicating that you couldn't just hide in plain sight.. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 08:43:10 PM by Vox »

Brokkr

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2018, 09:05:15 PM »
So, from that chart, it seems Infiltrator /is/ objectively the weakest.

The chart isn't necessarily meant to convey any balance, as objectively, stonecrafting, for instance, is worse than jewelrycrafting.  It just is.

Interestingly, I started with a chart that looks quite similar to that, to help assign skills.  It didn't work quite the same, and was really so I could visually see patterns of who had which skills, and how they flowed across classes.

Exactly, I just have to have something to look at so I can ingest it all, and make an objective assessment.  That said, I've caught up in the thread, and I wanted to make a few points of my own.

1)  Flavor wise, I do agree that it would be cooler to have Adventurer get chopping instead of bludgeoning.

2)  Did I miss something, or does trample no longer exist?  I thought I used it recently ...

3)  Shouldn't Soldier get Blind Fighting, as well?  Maybe at advanced, like the other light combats.

4)  I noticed Subdue is the only skill given at Apprentice.  Furthermore, it is capped for all classes at Advanced.  What's the possibility of maybe staging it up one tier, so that Advanced = Master, Journeyman = Advanced, etc.?

1.  I guess I've considered lumberjack axes as more tools than actual weapons.
2.  Some skills initiate only your skills list with different mechanisms that being on your class skill list.  Trample is one of those skills.
3.  It was a way to differentiate them.  Laborer also doesn't get it, while Stalker and Miscreant do.  Sort of like...if your experience is fighting in a city, or in general, you probably aren't fighting in a blinding sandstorm or darkened tunnel, often.
4.  This gets a shrug, because it wouldn't matter.  I wouldn't change the skill level the normal classes get, I would change the skill level on the sponsored role only guild down.  So in the end it would just be catering to some folks OCD, which isn't a huge priority.

Brokkr

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2018, 09:08:55 PM »
My next question is: since the creation of these classes seems to blend various subguild mechanics with previous archetype mechanics, will there be MAGE versions? Something that's like 'Destruction Krathi' for example that has a collection of spells and flavored combat skills allowing for a subguild to be chosen then for flavor like other classes?  That way I could be a Miscreant/Destruction Krathi if I wanted to be a rogue who manifested.. or a Destruction Krathi/master jeweler if I manifested younger.  Perhaps there could even be some sort of 'cost' for choosing a main-class mage in which you got a few more spell possibilities but would have a series of flavor echoes randomly spawn around you as your spells raised in power. Indicating that you couldn't just hide in plain sight.. Thoughts?

Changes to things like magick subguilds/spells/etc. tend to have a really long time between initial ideas and execution, for various reasons.  While there are ideas floating around for various magick related things, none of them relate to any re-implementation of magick main guilds.

SuchDragonWow

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2018, 09:16:44 PM »
Thanks for the replies.  All of that makes sense.  I guess the only one I still would point towards is that, yeah, lumber axes are tools, but there's some synergy to knowing how to swing an axe and learning to chop mf's up.  Just my two cents there.

Thanks for all the hard work.  It's looking rad.  I noticed some of the new balance you've created with stealth and perception, in particular.  I look forward to trying these out.

And as for "people will only play these four classes", don't worry.  People will pick OP classes and still suck at it, and people will pick what are perceived as subpar classes to try and roll people with it.  If you suck at games, there's no amount of handicap that'll get you to victory.  Still, this is a roleplay game, and picking classes that have the best combination of combat skills sounds about as boring as it gets.  In a roleplay game, I mean.  With stories and personalities.  But heeyyyyy.



Where it will go

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 42
Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2018, 10:03:09 PM »
After looking more carefully over the help files, it helps me to look at each class as an individual one, and it seems they do indeed have the relevant skills that will let them stand out in a group. I also noted that some of the ones that lack a few skills, have abilities that could make up for it. Also, I am one of the ones who definitely wants to try a lot more than the four or five listed favorites.
Oh and I kinda think bludgeoning on Adventurer is good. Not just because I always adventure myself in the mountains with a staff and a knife, but bludgeoning seems to the goto combat weapon skill. Just pick up that big branch and hit something with it!

Edited to add: Oh and I noticed on Fighter it says increased capacity for alcohol and pain, which, even though I don't really know what that means, it could certainly be a reason to choose fighter over the other heavy combat choices. Mixed with the right subguild, I can see it as very versatile and fun.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 03:38:30 PM by JohnMichaelHenry »
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AdamBlue

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2018, 04:25:53 PM »
Adventurer seems really good. It gives you some token combat ability enough to kill most animals with no problem, while making you relatively bad at fighting other combat-based characters, all while being primarily a crafting guild. This lets you go on sweet adventures, live entirely off the land. If you think about it, it's the earliest thing you're going to get to Rambo. Someone out in the Grey, making their own bows, own traps, knives and spears. Living in the hide of their most recent kill. Sure, they may not be ripped like a combat or mixed class, but they get the job done and without relying on a single other soul.
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roughneck

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2018, 12:25:30 PM »

No veteran player is going to take Fighter for example, The trade is simply not worth it...slightly higher starting skills, hack and riposte and easier branches verses survival skills, perception skills, stealth etc...not a good trade when you know you are in for the long haul anyway. Especially when you can simply take slipknife on raider and outdoorsman on enforcer. And who is going to take Infiltrator over miscreant? Everybody knows that many of the skills that they both get, anything less then master is essentially worthless or death sentence. Just the fact that Infiltrator only gets advanced poison and no brew skill means it is out for many.

I state again. As far as the new classes go today, Once the new has worn off...say 6 months after they go live, a VAST majority of classes in game, and I mean between 90 and 95% And 95-100% with people who have played more then two years will be Raider/enforcer (same class in my opinion) Scout(with a crafting sub), miscreant(with an aggressor sub) and Craftsperson with either protector sub or a sub with high skinning.
Four classes.

Stalker > Scout but hey, everyone has an opinion.

And, I can see value for Fighter with the right subguild.

Brokkr - This question may have been covered but I didn't see it. Will the mechanics around skill caps remain the same when you choose a sub that gives the opposite city/wilderness version of a skill that the main class already has? For example, if I were to take outdoorsman on miscreant, would the wilderness sneak and hide default to the same skill cap as miscreant's city sneak/hide? Will it now show up on the skill list as different skills altogether, or will you only get to choose on version or the other?

X-D

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #89 on: June 24, 2018, 07:42:03 PM »
Actually, I have moved stalker over scout too.:) More careful inspection.
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Brokkr

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2018, 09:42:32 PM »

No veteran player is going to take Fighter for example, The trade is simply not worth it...slightly higher starting skills, hack and riposte and easier branches verses survival skills, perception skills, stealth etc...not a good trade when you know you are in for the long haul anyway. Especially when you can simply take slipknife on raider and outdoorsman on enforcer. And who is going to take Infiltrator over miscreant? Everybody knows that many of the skills that they both get, anything less then master is essentially worthless or death sentence. Just the fact that Infiltrator only gets advanced poison and no brew skill means it is out for many.

I state again. As far as the new classes go today, Once the new has worn off...say 6 months after they go live, a VAST majority of classes in game, and I mean between 90 and 95% And 95-100% with people who have played more then two years will be Raider/enforcer (same class in my opinion) Scout(with a crafting sub), miscreant(with an aggressor sub) and Craftsperson with either protector sub or a sub with high skinning.
Four classes.

Stalker > Scout but hey, everyone has an opinion.

And, I can see value for Fighter with the right subguild.

Brokkr - This question may have been covered but I didn't see it. Will the mechanics around skill caps remain the same when you choose a sub that gives the opposite city/wilderness version of a skill that the main class already has? For example, if I were to take outdoorsman on miscreant, would the wilderness sneak and hide default to the same skill cap as miscreant's city sneak/hide? Will it now show up on the skill list as different skills altogether, or will you only get to choose on version or the other?

At some point during this the way in which stealth and hunt works in regards to city/wilderness was totally re-written.  Previously it was tied directly into guilds/subguilds.  The ability is the enabler of which environment one can use sneak/hide/hunt in.  We can apply this in a database rather than in the code to guilds and subguilds.

Delirium

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2018, 09:45:50 PM »
So, to be sure I understand:
if you get journeyman wilderness hide from a subguild, and advanced city hide from a main guild, you won't just have one hide skill on your list, capped to advanced - you will have two hide skills, with their respective caps?
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Brokkr

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2018, 11:54:39 PM »
No.  There is one hide skill.  Abilities determine behavior of the hide skill.

Hauwke

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #93 on: June 25, 2018, 12:01:28 AM »
Is it an either or situation, or is will it still be possible to have both?

Cind

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #94 on: June 25, 2018, 12:14:16 AM »
Artisan sounds like my baby. Going to raise that baby right.
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JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #95 on: June 25, 2018, 01:09:54 AM »
Okay. I'm starting to see what you guys are saying about scout vs. stalker. Seems like stalkers are gonna make better scouts than scouts will. Scout does have more weapon skills, and can master dual wield and two handed, so maybe I'm not giving that enough weight? It really looks like a whatever you can do, I can do better situation.

Edited to ask: Does seeing 'advanced' in your weapons skill necessarily mean the level is the same  as someone else that has 'advanced'? I would understand if the mixed classes advanced would be at the start of advanced, while the light combat classes advanced would be close to master.

Oh right! Are there stat bonuses still? Very curious to know how they would distribute if so....
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 02:31:46 AM by JohnMichaelHenry »
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
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JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #96 on: June 25, 2018, 03:28:23 AM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Raider
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Raider%20Branching


Branching states "Parry to Blind Fighting" but the main Raider helpfile doesn't mention Blind Fighting

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Infiltrator
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Fighter%20Branching

Branching has "Listen to Watch" but the main Infiltrator helpfile had it starting with Watch
It also doesn't mention 'Threaten' as a skill to branch in the helpfile - I was on the wrong page.  I was on fighter.

Thanks!

Fixed Raider helpfile.  Technically listen does branch to watch, but watch is put on everyone's skill list at chargen.  So essentially it is functioning like a starting skill.  Took it off the branching page.

So nix my earlier comment about watch for Artisan, I guess everyone gets it to some degree...

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
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Nao

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2018, 03:59:30 AM »
Okay. I'm starting to see what you guys are saying about scout vs. stalker. Seems like stalkers are gonna make better scouts than scouts will. Scout does have more weapon skills, and can master dual wield and two handed, so maybe I'm not giving that enough weight? It really looks like a whatever you can do, I can do better situation.

Edited to ask: Does seeing 'advanced' in your weapons skill necessarily mean the level is the same  as someone else that has 'advanced'? I would understand if the mixed classes advanced would be at the start of advanced, while the light combat classes advanced would be close to master.

Oh right! Are there stat bonuses still? Very curious to know how they would distribute if so....

It's been said somewhere on this board (too lazy to dig it up now) that they are different. The light combat "advanced" is roughly the same as the caps the current warrior. The caps for the mixed classes are lower.
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Hauwke

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2018, 06:14:57 AM »
If you even get to that point. The only reason you would even need advanced in a weapon skill is for pvp.

Cind

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Re: Public Discussion of New Classes
« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2018, 11:39:31 AM »
Fence and Dune Trader sound good, though, like they are worth exploring to someone who has their heart set on Artisan.

I haven't really looked at ALL the others, which one(s) would you guys say is the new ranger? Is it Adventurer?

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