Author Topic: New Guild Info Leaks!  (Read 1506 times)

Riev

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New Guild Info Leaks!
« on: June 19, 2018, 03:11:06 PM »
Quote
Brokkr - Today at 2:56 PM
There will be one 0 karma subclass that allows you to MC skills from your main.  Being at master not required.  The extended subguilds that currently allow MC for certain skills will continue to be able to MC those certain skills.

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Riev, the Salt King Reborn - Today at 2:59 PM
Classes with (master) crafting skills are not, by virtue of being masters, able to custom craft. Therefore, what WILL control whether someone can custom-craft an item?

Brokkr - Today at 3:00 PM
Having the Custom Crafter subguild, or an extended subguild that gives custom crafting for those skills it offers.


Brokkr - Today at 3:01 PM
The old way of having it have to be master led to folks typically submitting crafts that were way too fancy.


So. New guilds... being Light/Medium/Heavy Mercantile will NOT affect whether you can create custom items. Your ability to create a custom item will depend on what your subguild is.
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Riev

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2018, 03:27:23 PM »
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Riev, the Salt King Reborn - Today at 3:25 PM
The change to power custom crafting to subguilds is not a negative one. But the idea that its "because of staff workload" or that "people don't submit custom crafts anyways" is really... just wrong.


Brokkr - Today at 3:26 PM
There are also other reasons.  Those are simply the only ones I am going to discuss here, at this time.  Other than making subclass choice matter.

Quote
Riev, the Salt King Reborn - Today at 3:27 PM
@Brokkr Did you say something earlier about possibly allowing House Crafters to still have custom-crafting ability, despite their subguild selection? Or did I make that up?

Brokkr - Today at 3:28 PM
I did.

So you may be able to join Kurac/Kadius/Salarr/etc and still be able to custom-craft House needs, if you did not pick a particular Subguild.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 03:30:26 PM by Riev »
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sleepyhead

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2018, 03:41:02 PM »
I want to mention that Brokkr did say the notion wasn't set in stone; it's just something that's being talked about staffside.

mansa

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Bebop

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2018, 05:49:14 PM »
Whoa!  I like it.  Are we going to get branch paths for all Guilds now?  Because I think that would be super helpful.

Riev

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2018, 06:00:01 PM »
Likely all but the magicker guilds, Brokkr said they want to retain the mystery.
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sleepyhead

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2018, 06:53:06 PM »
I do think the mystery should be maintained, but I also think that new magicker players should get some more guidance than they do. A lot of new gicker players go in blind, having no idea what they are doing, and get frustrated--new 'symbol' command notwithstanding. I know that starting spell words get sent to the players of new gickers, so maybe a little blurb could be included on the difference between the actual hidden skill level and the power level, just to name one thing that confused me in the beginning.

I remember when I was a noob gemmer, I had trouble keeping up with others and the expectations of the higher-ups because I did not have a good grasp on these things (even though I thought I did.) I know it's not all about coded power, but the way things are, the impenetrable magick system encourages people to go search for spoilers.

Lizzie

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2018, 07:35:25 PM »
I do think the mystery should be maintained, but I also think that new magicker players should get some more guidance than they do. A lot of new gicker players go in blind, having no idea what they are doing, and get frustrated--new 'symbol' command notwithstanding. I know that starting spell words get sent to the players of new gickers, so maybe a little blurb could be included on the difference between the actual hidden skill level and the power level, just to name one thing that confused me in the beginning.

I remember when I was a noob gemmer, I had trouble keeping up with others and the expectations of the higher-ups because I did not have a good grasp on these things (even though I thought I did.) I know it's not all about coded power, but the way things are, the impenetrable magick system encourages people to go search for spoilers.

1. I don't even know what you mean by "hidden skill level" and I've played a bunch of mages in the past. I don't think it really matters, since you yourself say it's "hidden" and therefore the player doesn't ever see it anyway. The only coded thing he'd need to know about is the power level.

2. Other than this hidden skill level, the entire magick system is spelled out in detail in the help files:

https://www.armageddon.org/help/letter/M
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Delirium

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2018, 07:39:28 PM »
Power level is different from skill level. Bam. Now you know.
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sleepyhead

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2018, 08:03:58 PM »
Okay. Well maybe it's just because I'm an idiot. I can accept that.

But my idiot self remembers being confused as to why I couldn't branch any spells. Every other skill in the game shows skill level, so I (again, stupidly) assumed power level must be connected in some way to skill level. Maybe this "power level is not the same as skill level" business should be in the helpfiles or in the acceptance email rather than only on the GDB...just for morons like me. Bam.

I wasn't confused about anything that's actually present in the helpfiles, except magick components. I assumed that you just had to...somehow just "know" and memorize them, and I wasn't sure what you do with them once you had them. It wasn't until I learned how to branch (which took a long time) and branched certain abilities (and access to the helpfiles of those abilities) that I really understood how anyone could possibly work with these things without having an OOC master list of components.

Maybe components are advanced enough stuff that it SHOULD be confusing, sure, but I know it overwhelms a lot of people, especially when some templar is breathing down their neck and won't accept that they don't somehow know everything without being told. And it might be totally IC for that templar to be that way, but maybe a hint or two for the player to work with would be nice. Even if it's just the hint that as they grow as a mage, they may learn how to more easily and innately figure out components.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 08:05:48 PM by sleepyhead »

Delirium

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2018, 08:44:00 PM »
It confused me too. I was talking to Lizzie. And any other magick newbie that doesn't understand.
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sleepyhead

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 08:55:20 PM »
Ooohhhhh sorry! I feel a bit silly for going on and on about how dumb I am. I do it a lot; it's kind of a defense mechanism when I feel attacked. Attack myself first and no one else can get the satisfaction and all that. Bad habit. Apologies!

EDIT: And I'm getting us off-topic. So sorry again!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:01:39 PM by sleepyhead »

Delirium

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2018, 09:19:06 PM »
And I have often been told I have the text-based version of RBF.

I probably need to include smiley faces more often, but then I worry that it comes across as sarcastic instead.

On topic, I am hugely excited about the new guilds, and I really like the set-up of the helpfiles. If you don't want to look at branching info, you don't have to. If you want it, it's there. Brilliant. Two thumbs up.
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sleepyhead

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2018, 09:23:03 PM »
The new guilds are great and I'm super excited about how versatile they are, but the custom crafting thing concerns me. I think heavy mercantile should be able to CC. I don't think it makes sense to make it a subguild-only option. It limits people's concepts too much.

Cind

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2018, 02:41:24 AM »
I'm excited for Artisan. If they are planning to release skill trees for all the guilds, that would make subguild choice a lot easier.
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azuriolinist

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2018, 03:10:40 AM »
I'm loving the look of the new guilds and helpfiles so far. Can't wait for their release.

I agree that, besides the custom crafter subguild and extended subguilds, heavy mercantile guilds should also gain the ability to submit custom crafts. That way, there's much more flexibility with guild and subguild choices.

Riev

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2018, 08:52:29 AM »
I agree with "heavy" mercantile having custom crafting, if only because the idea that they are "heavy" into that side suggests that crafting is their deal, its their focus, its what they do. Its not some side-hustle they have going on. I would hate to roll a craft-heavy guild but be told I have to then pick a subguild that contains my EXPECTED route of custom crafting, especially since many are karma gated and, when the system is working, would mean a reduction in CGP.

Oops. I'm whining again.
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valeria

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2018, 09:35:06 AM »
The way I read it, mercantile is merchant, and anyone can be a crafter. If you wanted to custom craft EVERY craft skill you get as heavy mercantile, you would pick the zero-karma subguild that lets you custom craft any and all of your crafting skills.

sleepyhead

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2018, 10:52:08 AM »
Unfortunately Brokkr made it very clear in the chat that NO main guild can custom craft anything at all without picking either the 0 karma sub that unlocks that ability for your main guild skills, or an extended sub like master potter or whatever that allows CCing in the crafting skills it gives. That means no more magicker custom crafters, for example, unless they join a GMH and get the ability to custom craft for orders.

Brokkr

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2018, 11:15:00 AM »
I would hate to roll a craft-heavy guild but be told I have to then pick a subguild that contains my EXPECTED route of custom crafting, especially since many are karma gated and, when the system is working, would mean a reduction in CGP.

I am not sure why this would be expected.  I warned everyone, at the beginning of play testing, that the route for custom crafting was being looked at.

Quote
Custom crafting will not apply to any of the classes during the beta play test, unless you choose a subguild that currently offers custom crafting.  We are still working out how custom crafting will be handled for the new classes

This should have been a clear warning that we were looking at it not being the same as status quo.  Assuming you ever played a Tuluki.

sleepyhead

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2018, 11:26:30 AM »
As much as I agree with you that the proposed system leaves a lot to be desired, Brokkr has repeatedly said (from the very first ATS post that alluded to it) that the subguild that unlocks CCing for your main guild skills is zero karma/CGP/whatever you want to call it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 11:28:29 AM by sleepyhead »

WithSprinkles

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2018, 12:32:13 PM »
I'm interested and excited about the new guilds, but I VERY much play this game and ALL other games like it because I like to write/create things in text. (shrugs) This is the draw for some types of players.

Imagine if someone likes to craft and they are stuck having to choose that subguild ALL THE TIME to do it. No other subguild ever. That is limiting and not very fun.

GCP is still a thing, though. Could we special app for more skills or whatever? Since the BASE subguild is zero karma, if someone has more than that, could they do more? How would that work? Would it be relevant at all to add some customization options?

Otherwise I suppose that people who are not playing the classes that they enjoy might consider doing so before they go away for good. I'm on the fence myself. The new guilds look nice, but I'm sort of waiting to see how this plays out in the end.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 12:39:56 PM by WithSprinkles »

Brytta Léofa

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2018, 12:36:13 PM »
I'll just throw this idea out there: allow people to spend CGP to add abilities ("can forage for food", "can camp in the wilderness", "can submit custom crafts") independent of guild and subguild.

Sounds like a complication, but actually it eliminates the need for all the "Master Foomaker" subguilds as well as the Custom Crafter subguild.
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Brokkr

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2018, 01:08:41 PM »
I'll just throw this idea out there: allow people to spend CGP to add abilities ("can forage for food", "can camp in the wilderness", "can submit custom crafts") independent of guild and subguild.

Sounds like a complication, but actually it eliminates the need for all the "Master Foomaker" subguilds as well as the Custom Crafter subguild.

The abilities are coded abilities that are tied to guild and subguild.  We will likely look at subguilds next.

nessalin

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2018, 01:15:02 PM »
Rein in your tone or see your posts moderated.

Keep doing it when it's clear you know better and I'll start handing out 3 day bans.
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Lizzie

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2018, 05:07:50 PM »
Enforcer, infiltrator, fence - all look amazing!
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roughneck

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2018, 06:02:02 PM »
Ummm.

Fuck yes.


Also, thanks to all those who worked their genitalia off to make us new fun things.


Delirium

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2018, 06:08:15 PM »
Wow, enforcer looks terrifying. BRB writing up Bronn, the Zalanthas version.
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Rumor

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2018, 06:21:34 PM »
Wow, enforcer looks terrifying. BRB writing up Bronn, the Zalanthas version.

Warriors with master backstab and sap (to pair with master weapon skills) and advanced stealth and climb skills. Seems way powerful coming out of one class without factoring in the subclass. I feel like any of the classes that will spot advanced sneak/hide are still just going to get annihilated by one of these guys.

Why master parry and shield use for a class like this, I wonder? I feel like there's too many master level skills that carry heavy weight for this class.

Edit: I'm surprised to see no scan on Soldiers or higher level subdue since they're essentially the police.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 06:27:04 PM by Rumor »

Delirium

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2018, 06:24:33 PM »
It's actually super similar to the warrior/slipknife combo already available, but a bit more flexible as you can also choose a subguild now.
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Hauwke

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2018, 06:28:30 PM »
Enforcer just seems like the do EVERYTHING combat related class to me. Sure, maybe I would not have given them stealth, but backstab does make sense in a way, you need to be stealthy to stab a guy in his kidney and tear it open. Just need a brief window of distraction or the guts to run in and shank a fool.

Agreed on them being terrifying! I love it.

BadSkeelz

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2018, 06:35:24 PM »
Enforcer just seems like the do EVERYTHING combat related class to me. Sure, maybe I would not have given them stealth, but backstab does make sense in a way, you need to be stealthy to stab a guy in his kidney and tear it open. Just need a brief window of distraction or the guts to run in and shank a fool.

Agreed on them being terrifying! I love it.

I have similar feelings towards Raider, at least on paper. They get a lot of mobility that I missed on my warriors.

Fighter seems very lackluster compared to the other two.
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Hauwke

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2018, 06:37:02 PM »
Fighter is just legacy warrior really from the look of it. But thats okay too I guess, sometimes you dont want to have the ability to shank a guy?

BadSkeelz

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2018, 06:38:20 PM »
Or find your way through a storm. Or climb. I'd fight any man but a three room drop, no sir.
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Brokkr

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2018, 06:49:54 PM »
I opened a thread in the old play tester forum for this kind of discussion.


ps - Fighter starts with disarm.  Enforcer and Raider do not.

Brokkr

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Re: New Guild Info Leaks!
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2018, 07:01:56 PM »
Locking this as I'd like discussion to be in that other thread, so I can archive it later.