Author Topic: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?  (Read 3546 times)

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7718
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2018, 12:34:28 AM »
Why not just put in a request on the ask the staff forum, requesting that they take a look at all players who've been playing "x" amount of time and started playing before "y" date, to make sure that the longevity karma point has been appropriately granted to ALL players who qualify for it?

It looks to me like some new players might have been overlooked. But does that mean the staff should be inundated with dozens of requests from new players asking for a karma point? It seems like they have the metrics to figure out who "should" have that longevity point and who hasn't gotten there yet. It might even take awhile for them to do all the data gathering and come up with a list that they can work with.

But I think that'd be a whole lot more efficient than suddenly opening it up to every new player to send in individual requests. Especially since karma review requests are low priority and can take MONTHS to resolve, PER request.

That's why I thought the idea of an automated first point for longevity was a good one. Figure out the criteria of "what constitutes longevity" and then let the code grant it. It's not subjective, it's based on actual numbers. I don't know what would go into coding that, but I'm guessing it would take a lot less time than addressing a whole bunch of individual requests for that first point.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

mansa

  • Posts: 9529
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2018, 12:37:54 AM »
To put things into prospective, this is what you unlock with 1 Karma.

1 Karma: You have Desert Elves and you also have some of the 'touched' subclasses.

Desert Elves are tricky to get into the mindset, because you MUST belong to an existing tribe.  More Info -
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Desert%20Elf%20Tribes
Applications:
   When you apply with a desert elf character, any character with magick
ability must be pre-approved through a Clan Related: Question request
through the Request Tools. All Desert Elves have a maximum number allowed
in each tribe, so you may be rejected when creating one of these due to
the tribe being full. If you want to be sure you're ok, submit a request
first to ask about availability.



You also have 'touched' subclasses, which can give you access to magick spells...  I wish there was a magick hunter class.  :)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 12:41:26 AM by mansa »
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1109
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2018, 01:03:55 AM »
stoicreader your fantasy writing looks top notch and I look forward to seeing more if you'd ever want to post some.

I recommend you make a special application for an apothecary and see what happens?
The neat, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
     "I tried hairy...Im sorry"

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 418
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2018, 01:56:44 AM »
That's why I thought the idea of an automated first point for longevity was a good one. Figure out the criteria of "what constitutes longevity" and then let the code grant it. It's not subjective, it's based on actual numbers. I don't know what would go into coding that, but I'm guessing it would take a lot less time than addressing a whole bunch of individual requests for that first point.

I could definitely get behind this, based on how the longevity point has been granted.

AdamBlue

  • Posts: 789
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2018, 02:02:59 AM »
Hahahah, I've been playing this game for over six years and I've never gotten more than a single karma.

Krath

  • Posts: 2430
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2018, 02:10:19 AM »
Lizzie,

While I do not disagree with your comments, I do have to agree and be empathetic towards the new players' point of view.

The IMMS, who by the way I am very thankful for the countless hours of work they put into this game for US, decided that they would stop karma reviews until the spending system could be figured out.

I pose this question to the IMMs, not as an act of hostility, but so everyone has full understanding:

Why was the karma review removed for -everyone- until you fix the spending system, while players who already had karma before you decided to change the system, are not subject to the same restrictions new players are?

If we are trying to retain new players, and many of them are complaining about this, I feel that it should be addressed directly. If it is a workload thing, and will take a bunch of time, I think that is a more than fair response, and they probably be more understanding if it was just explained to them by one of you, rather than an opinion from one of us.


Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

MarshallDFX

  • Posts: 1531
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2018, 04:23:10 AM »
I would also be wary of advocating a "you knew what you were signing up for" argument which is just as tone deaf and inaccurate.

I imagine most just read the website, which as pointed out, is wrong.

I even agree most  karma wouldn't be used.  But it's a sign something is awry with the whole conception of the current karma system that not getting something we won't use is frustrating.

It's an angst generator, and becomes obvious with a cursory browse of "about karma".  It seems written without any realization where it sits.

#killkarma #chillpillforarm

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 404
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2018, 08:43:03 AM »
I posted before that I was in support of newer players getting longevity points of Karma. This on the assumption that, no, they are not sitting idling, but actively playing and contributing and learning the game systems and possibly even making way toward the other listed criteria of Karma. Do we want non-responsive zombies sitting in the taverns, guildhalls and standing in the streets? No. If a person is truly playing and writing reports/bios, I hope that they are not getting ignored even if Karma is not involved right now. Because that would be a shame.

I doubt this is the case.

There is stuff in the game that an inexperienced player is gonna slam against and go WHY if they haven't had a chance to just see or hear about it. This needs actual game 'play', not 'time'. As you creep up the Karma scale, the gloves come off and the world starts gut punching you. People get more critical because they are hoping for more from your character. Some things, you don't actually get to know about until you are in your character's boots and on the stones running. By that point, perhaps you should know some things and some stuff.

Sooo... Eh. I admit to being a little checked out of the topic because I don't think that the higher level Karma options seem at all fun on paper (haven't gotten to play in the higher tiers). I don't personally understand why people are so on about reaching for all that these roles inherently entail. The customization a person can have for the subguilds, extended subguilds and skillbumps is nice, though.

Riev

  • Posts: 5160
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2018, 09:30:07 AM »
Lets focus on the stuff we know from staff.

It is likely when karma reviews are allowed again that the opening up will be tiered by karma level, simply for workload considerations.  It is unlikely we will allow karma reviews before the spendable karma system is operational.

Special apps are also not restricted to players with karma. If you like, you can special app for one-karma guilds and subguilds as a new player; many players do.

The first karma point is traditionally awarded for longevity, and is evaluated on both cumulative playtime as well as account age. Playtime is measured in days played, both on a single character and across all characters. There's currently no official threshold, but for accounts below 10 days cumulative playtime, I would suggest playing more roles before expecting karma.

So. Frankly speaking, it sounds like no suggestion or yearning or logical argument is going to sway staff beyond "We need to fix the Spendable Karma System" first. Sorry guys, but if there's one thing Brokkr does, its tell you like it is.

For what Rah stated, the staff expectation is that new players use their special-app slots (of which they get 2 per year) to apply for something more than what they have, despite the fact that they obviously have not had enough "play time" to get the 1st karma in the first place.


I just want it known. That is what staff have said, and these are the fact. There will be no opening of the Karma Reviews until they fix things. Karma Reviews have been offline for 16months or so. I am of the opinion that it is not a priority for current staff to maintain or retain new players (meaning that they may be working on it, but it isn't their top worry). When you wonder why Riev is salty, this is why.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

MarshallDFX

  • Posts: 1531
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2018, 09:46:53 AM »
Do we want non-responsive zombies sitting in the taverns, guildhalls and standing in the streets? No.
this is just pearl clutching.

What is the objective of the karma system? And to what end? From the helpfiles it seems to be a continuous and subjective evaluation of roleplay prowess and personal trustworthiness to ensure generally limited and well RPd karma classes.  And I just don't think that is a workable, or even desirable goal.

A karma system serving as a "advanced class" allocation method on the other hand could be totally automatic.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 500
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2018, 11:51:41 AM »
A RPI game with high quality RP is absolutely a desirable goal.

Giving karma is subjective.  To take the longevity point, which is often the first point folks get, there are some objective points.  Playing over a year.  No bad account notes for six months.  And then then subjective.  Play 10 days over multiple characters?  Several 5 day characters?  Less than that but is a phenomenal roleplayer or really seems to get and take into account the game world?  You could automate part of this, but not all of it.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7718
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2018, 12:14:14 PM »
Thanks for the quick response Brokkr. I (and apparently other people) thought the longevity point was more of a data-specific earn than a subjective earn.

Would the staff consider checking on all accounts that opened during the time frame of "the day it was announced that karma reviews were being shut off" and "more than 4 months ago" - to see if any of those accounts have earned their first point for longevity, without requiring them to submit a request for a review that isn't an option right now?

I'll take a leap and assume that at least a few have fallen through the cracks, because we're all humans here (except Nessalin, who is a cyborg).
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 152
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2018, 01:08:27 PM »
if you're not feeling like quitting, then you don't care about the game, imo.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this makes sense.

The opposite has to be true for a lot of people. Why would a player quit if they do care?

I have seen staff introduce changes to address players' concerns. I've also seen changes a lot of players did not agree with. That doesn't mean there hasn't been progress made. That doesn't mean the people who continue playing and contributing don't care for the game.

Besides that, let's focus on discussing karma reviews, as this thread was intended for. I agree that the way karma is structured now is flawed. There's an urge to take on a reward mindset when you 'unlock' roles through karma, and are otherwise completely barred from taking such roles up (besides taking them on through special applications). That is, unless you happen to catch staff's attention. It's no wonder we have new players -- and not just the new -- wanting for karma.

I'm all in agreement for opening up karma reviews for players with no karma. The regen system may not be operational, yet, but Zalanthas won't crumble with a bunch of one karma roles apping in. That's how it's worked before. Someone whom staff grants one karma for should be able to be trusted, either way.

You missed my point, so I don't see the need to go through it again, but the focus needs to be on retention, you don't want an influx of new players whojust  turn around and leave.

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2018, 01:22:00 PM »
The point of the OP is missed.

The problem is not Karma. I don't care about Karma. The problem is a policy that is discriminatory.

Discrimination example 1: This policy favors peak-time players over off-peak players for several reasons.
  • As an off peaker there are not many RP opportunities, much of what I do is solo play, so I cannot reasonable demonstrate I understand the game world without sending in character reports.
  • As an off peaker, you get tired of solo-emoting, so it looks like we're all just twinks. But... how creative do you need to get to Forage Clay by yourself if you haven't seen someone in 10 hours of game-time?
  • As an off peak player there aren't many leadership roles available. Even then, there will be very few folks under you. It would be "leadership-lite" and just figure-head leadership, not actual leadership.
  • As an off peak player, it is very unlikely you're around when your clan IMM is around to watch you. The "don't touch the players in my clan" policy causes off peak players to be ignored unless they are doing something wrong. Which I haven't done, yet.

Discrimination example 2: This policy favors regular play, not casual or irregular players. Those of us with children, jobs, and busy lives cannot log-on regularly. Because of this were not memorable to the powers that be unless we play a very unique roll and make very detailed character reports. (which I do) Even then, character reports are not enough if no one observes you play. It could all just be fabricated.

Discrimination example 3: New players are obviously discriminated against because they do not have the same opportunities that other players once had. You started 18 months ago and requested Karma and got it? I started 12 months ago and cannot even ask. One person, by virtue of starting early has an opportunity that newer folks do not get.

Imagine a hardcore player who LOVES Armageddon but can only play off peak (point 1), with an irregular schedule (point 2), and they are new (point 3). Without the ability to ASK for Karma, they will likely NEVER get it.

I carry around a purse notebook with maps I've drawn, character's I've met, backgrounds of future characters, hand drawn portraits of my characters (and others), as well as bios. I write it all in a beautiful script using G2 ink refills on a engineered + machined stainless steel pen. I use note taking software to organize events in my character's life so I can really make the story come to life. It's the same stuff I use to write books and it makes story telling look like a cool Wikipedia article. I have tags for everything so I can easily search. I started using a Surface Pro so I can take the game with me on the go to Coffee Shops. (Especially because I lost connection on my home computer during a climax with a Karma privileged PC and had my character killed/stored.)  I installed a bad-ass mud client so I can script my character's personality with special triggers that fire off hidden emotes when I "feel" certain emotions. I added Mood to my prompt and am working on using timers to change the mood depending on the time of day in game.

So then I see this post and realize that I'll NEVER get recognition... maybe when my son is middle school... Forget it! I'll apply my creativity elsewhere.
Meh

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2018, 01:35:36 PM »
People likely to quit Armageddon.
  • New people who don't know MUDs: Syntax is a bitch. Helpers fix this problem.
  • New people who want to play NOW: No fix, character approval required.
  • New people who see all these people with rolls and guilds they may never have an opportunity to get to play. They feel discrimination.
  • Any player who plays off peak, this game does not support off-peak play or players.
  • Casual players

So not only is your niche game super niche by being a Roleplay intensive Text-only game it's niche in several other ways too. The fact that you need to be mature enough to wait for character approval, be technical enough to learn "programming.lite" in order to emote, to be a player who is available during peak times, who has the time to play regularly, and who started 12+ months ago.

If you're not all these things, you eventually quit.
Meh

MarshallDFX

  • Posts: 1531
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2018, 01:48:27 PM »
A RPI game with high quality RP is absolutely a desirable goal.

It's a desirable outcome but not one I'd design the karma system to achieve.  That confuses ends and means, and is the thrust of my point.  If liberalizing karma aquisition resulted in less high quality RP well then color me surprised, but at least we're not running nuclear power stations here.

But I'm probably out on the fringe here.  For the record I'm a big fan of the spend system.  If I was choosing a goal for the system it would be to limit the quantity of these classes in game but give all the regular players a fair shot of doing it justice.  They may surprise us all.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 01:50:01 PM by MarshallDFX »

Speciation

  • Posts: 60
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2018, 02:09:32 PM »
In two weeks I will have been playing for 1 year now, I've had a character with 65+ days played and I still have 0 karma. I don't really care about karma, just throwing it out there to give some info from a semi-new player.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5211
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #67 on: June 04, 2018, 02:28:14 PM »
Not on board with this. In any way.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote from: Anonymous
I'm sorry to see that your personal resolution to this went in that direction, but wish you the best.

Riev

  • Posts: 5160
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2018, 02:43:26 PM »
Not on board with this. In any way.

Very useful and helpful, Shaleah! … Perhaps maybe explain why you're not on board with "this", hoping that "this" is the OP's suggestion and not the other 12 things being batted around? Perhaps you have some insight on why a veteran player is against the initiative?


I feel all the concerns and points, and I'm not a new player. We ARE a niche community in the MUDding world, and as an RPI, even more of a niche (We're hardly an RPI these days, either). We can either whittle down until we have 8 people we REALLY REALLY support playing the game, or try to at least listen to what more than a couple new players have said over the past year. Do you NEED to change anything? Fuck no. This is Staff's game, and we get to play in it.

But if some newbie has said "I love this game, but I see this broken system as a problem."... I certainly hope there is more IDB discussion than "Players are whining again".
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Malken

  • Posts: 9100
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2018, 03:21:31 PM »
Unfortunately I feel like it's probably too late to fix the problems stoicreader listed since they have been the same problems since I started playing a billion years ago.

Casual and offpeak players will always be screwed, that's just the nature of MMOs and if you add something to make it more fair then it will be abused by those who have decided to dedicate their lives to Arm 24/7.

The syntax just keeps getting more complicated but newbies should know that you can completely ignore it and do just fine with just ~ % and ! like I have been doing for years.

If you are upset because you feel it's unfair that some players have more this or that than you do then you are really better off quitting now because Armageddon has always had a reputation for Staff pets and that reputation is really hard to be rid of. You will find other examples of unfairness even if you have full karma.

In my humble opinion, the less staff attention you receive, the more fun the game is. If you decide to stay on Arm (I've had the best gaming fun on Arm than in any other games) you have to accept that it comes with many flaws that you won't be able to change or just move on.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 03:29:09 PM by Malken »
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 877
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2018, 03:32:38 PM »
I wish that the karma scale wasn't shrunken down the way that it was. With that said, I think karma reviews are a good thing if someone was still 0 Karma after one year...with the old system. With the new system I think that it should be more like 3 years. Letting people play a karma-restricted character just to see if they can handle it isn't doing anyone any favors. That is how we get muls walking around just being buf humans, elf-human love, breeds that don't breed, and magickers that think they are equal to everyone else in the grand social scheme of things.

Just play the game and have fun. Part of the awesomeness is when you /finally/ get to play that guild or class that you have been dying to play for a long time! Toss any ideas of entitlement out of the window because they are just as silly here as they are IRL.

Have fun with the game, follow the rules, and it will come - I promise!
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

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Speciation

  • Posts: 60
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2018, 03:43:51 PM »
That is how we get muls walking around just being buf humans, elf-human love, breeds that don't breed, and magickers that think they are equal to everyone else in the grand social scheme of things.

I've seen half-giants played like murder machines with little downside, so I get that. City elves, humans, and breeds are all available at 0 karma, so I don't really see how that fits in though.

Zombie

  • Posts: 3
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2018, 03:52:45 PM »
Unfortunately I feel like it's probably too late to fix the problems stoicreader listed since they have been the same problems since I started playing a billion years ago.

Casual and offpeak players will always be screwed, that's just the nature of MMOs and if you add something to make it more fair then it will be abused by those who have decided to dedicate their lives to Arm 24/7.

The syntax just keeps getting more complicated but newbies should know that you can completely ignore it and do just fine with just ~ % and ! like I have been doing for years.

If you are upset because you feel it's unfair that some players have more this or that than you do then you are really better off quitting now because Armageddon has always had a reputation for Staff pets and that reputation is really hard to be rid of. You will find other examples of unfairness even if you have full karma.

In my humble opinion, the less staff attention you receive, the more fun the game is. If you decide to stay on Arm (I've had the best gaming fun on Arm than in any other games) you have to accept that it comes with many flaws that you won't be able to change or just move on.

Armageddon, or any roleplaying MUD, is about as fun without staff attention as a D&D session is without a DM. The staff exist to support plots and move the game forward, and provide fun opportunities to players. It's why they are volunteers. If they have failed to provide fun opportunities to players then those players should find a game that provides fun to them.

---

Also, people who are saying variations of: I never had problems getting my karma, just play the game and have fun, my experiences have been fine, or what have you: look up "FYIGM" in Urban Dictionary and tell me how that is a valid position to have in a game that barely reaches 200 active players most weeks.

rangerdanger

  • Posts: 10
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2018, 04:05:47 PM »
With the new system I think that it should be more like 3 years.

That just seems insane to me. Three years is how long it takes to get a degree in some fields. You want to tell me that's how long it takes before a player can handle a desert elf without having to ask for the one-time privilege of trying it? I can get a degree in literature in the time it takes me to prove that I can be trusted with the cutpurse subguild? It just sounds completely out of touch with reality. What's the justification for mandating that a player must have served three years before they've proven themselves to the first tier of restricted roles? Three years?! It's just... I don't understand this premise at all. Sounds more like irrational possessiveness than anything. In most jobs, you're a trusted core employee after three years.

That's to say nothing of the higher karma roles; 7-10 years is how long it typically takes to become partner in a law firm. How could that possibly be how long you have to play Armageddon before the administration thinks you can handle a mul? It just doesn't even begin to make sense. It's mindboggling. I doubt more than one or two percent of players even play that long, and from hearing players in this thread, many who do play that long still aren't trusted with more than the middle tier. I just can't see how this is the right way to handle such a system. You can become a doctor in the time it takes to learn to play a sorcerer? Really? Is it that difficult?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 04:25:24 PM by rangerdanger »

Riev

  • Posts: 5160
Re: Opening Karma Reviews for Zero Karma Players?
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2018, 04:10:03 PM »
This guy gets it. I am a constant supporter of "Who cares about staff? Do anything you can that doesn't involve them." for my own personal reasons, but its about as fun as Playing DnD without a DM. I may as well play a scripted Hack and Slash MUD and get really buff magic missile.

Staff volunteer to support the players and their plots, and to help the world seem "alive" when you're not there to interact with it. Karma is the level of trust the Staff as an Organization has placed  in you to maintain the feel of the world being alive without their intervention, rewarded by playing some cool new combination of skills/magick.

Unfortunately, people playing for a full year have not felt that they are part of this community due in no small part to the Karma Review restriction and the fact that you "can get karma but only if a staffer happens to notice you". Its not about Peak. Its not about Off Peak. Its about whether you, as a player, are noticed and given fair and equitable treatment. Right now, some are saying they do not feel that treatment and expressed that it has turned them off. They are using their voice to try and make it better because they want to play and be one of 'us'. Please don't gatekeep a dying community.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.