Author Topic: Custom Crafting  (Read 465 times)

Brokkr

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Custom Crafting
« on: May 29, 2018, 12:42:13 AM »
I know it has been a question from a few of you, and the community, on how master crafting or custom crafting is handled with the new classes.  I think a lot of folks assumed Heavy Merchants would automatically be able to.  Those of you who have been around while may have noticed a shift awhile back away from using the term "Master Crafting", in fact the helpfile for Master Crafter is for a subguild.  Instead, the helpfile is under Custom Crafting.  Of course, we are a bit inconsistent here and there, but this was a conscious shift, as the system wasn't intended to only produce top-of-the-line objects, but everything along the entire spectrum of quality.

How does this play into the new classes?

The system we are going to try out is that no class will get the ability to Custom Craft.  Advanced subguilds that give both high levels in certain skills, and the ability to submit custom crafts in certain skills, will remain as is.  We are going to introduce a new zero karma subguild that gives one skill, toolmaking, along with being able to submit custom crafts, on the same time frame as currently.  There will be a list of restricted things that can't be custom crafted (components, raw lumber, cures, poisons, etc.), but other than those folks with this subclass will be able to custom craft for the crafting skills that their main class grants.  At any point, up to the skill level they have in the skill they are submitting a craft for.  So no need to be at "master".

Welcome thoughts and praise and concerns and even sputtering outrage.

deskoft

  • Posts: 355
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2018, 01:12:52 AM »
The ability to custom craft outside of the 'master' level is an absolutely incredible addition. Kudos for that! It's probably going to add a whole new spectrum of objects that will make Zalanthas feel more Zalanthas.

rinthrat

  • Posts: 12
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2018, 01:43:20 AM »
Sputtering outrage incoming...

I don't think this is going to do any good, except make the mertantile guilds unpopular (like they have been in the beta test, as much as I know) and force players who still want to play a crafter that can make his/her own items into one of the crafting subguilds to 'fix' them.

Crafting skills can
1) Serve as a coin generator
This part is just not that interesting by itself and other things in the game can fulfill this purpose. It's not fun to craft the same set of items over and over again just to accumulate some coin.
2) For crafted items that other PCs want, PC interaction
This one is nice to have, but there is little demand for a lot of skills. Brewing? Sure. Knife-making? Maybe, sometimes. But things like stonecrafting? Nobody is going to buy these granite vases. Then there's skills like club making that seem to have about three recipes.
3) Custom crafting
This gives you a way to use these crafting skills that you can't find good recipes for, and make whatever unavailable thing PCs ask for. It's THE thing that made merchants interesting and appealing. Which now requires you to use up your subguild  >:(

I've been playing one of the light merchantiles and barely used the crafting skills, despite those being (nearly) the only skills I can even get to master. Because there's just not that much you can even do with them, without crafting your own stuff. I've found a way to use clothworking for PC interaction, but that's going to get old if more PCs do that. Pick making is great, for obvious reasons. The rest? Meh.

As for making custom crafts below Master level - crafting skills aren't that difficult to raise. This would benefit PCs that have a cap below master the most, but those used to come mostly from subguilds - and you can't pick two, so those won't be able to submit items, either, because they can't pick two subguilds. Anyone benefitting from this would need crafting skills coming from their main guild below master level.   
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 02:40:07 AM by rinthrat »

JustAnotherGuy

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2018, 08:25:21 AM »
I personally don't like the removal of custom crafting from guilds that can get Master in the skill.  I believe this is one of the strong aspects of the game and to those mercantile guilds.  I realize it is a lot of work for staff to put these into the game and also keep a balance with the game world.  The other issues is that so many people make custom items that are lost to the world once that character dies because everyone doesn't know the what the craft is.

Custom Crafting as a whole needs work, removing it from guilds that would normally get it per current rules is not going to help.  I realize the changes to this is due to the work that is put in.  I personally think that policy should change in the way it currently works.  Make it so that these crafts have a better game fit and over complex crafts should be made unique, which then allows the person to "craft" 5 of the item.  Then if they want 5 more, they submit a new "custom craft" request to get five more, using their normal monthly slot.

I've had a close relationship to this process over the years I've played Arm, and I've given feedback on it several times.  I could go on for hours here.
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Master Sandwich

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2018, 12:29:19 PM »
It seems that merchant houses are -always- on the lookout for those who can make custom crafts. Maybe also allow members of merchant houses the ability to make custom crafts when they are making them for that clan. After all crafters in these clans have virtual access to specialized tools & workshops, expert consultants, and access to materials others don't when it comes to their clan's specialized goods.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 12:34:09 PM by Master Sandwich »

JustAnotherGuy

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2018, 01:41:47 PM »
It seems that merchant houses are -always- on the lookout for those who can make custom crafts. Maybe also allow members of merchant houses the ability to make custom crafts when they are making them for that clan. After all crafters in these clans have virtual access to specialized tools & workshops, expert consultants, and access to materials others don't when it comes to their clan's specialized goods.

I actually like this idea.  I would also tack onto this for independent clans that have a warehouse that have paid for an upgrade to the "workshop" aspect of it.  I know this isn't a thing, but this could add into something for indie clans.  Maybe make it so that if you are an indie crafter without the more "advanced" workshop or sorts, you cannot make unique or difficult to make crafts.  Maybe you can only do basic 1-2 ingredient crafts (which would be nice to see more of btw).
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Brokkr

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 01:51:39 PM »
Currently 1 out of 6 guilds can get their crafting skills to master level.

In the future, 6 out of 15 classes will be able to get their crafting skills to master level.  At the same time, we don't want a huge influx of custom crafts.  Relying on "master" level skill to limit things is thus problematic.

We've talked about GMH having a certain number of crafting slots per month, or perhaps in consultation with their Storyteller and Admin.  The nice thing is that their crafts tend to have more potential to drive plots, rather than simply being one off vanity pieces not tied into some sort of plot.  We haven't firmed things up, and a large part is going to be seeing what the GMH Admin wants to do in this regards.

We haven't talked about it in regards to MMH, but may look at it if it becomes an issue.

rinthrat

  • Posts: 12
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 03:16:55 PM »
Currently 1 out of 6 guilds can get their crafting skills to master level.

In the future, 6 out of 15 classes will be able to get their crafting skills to master level.  At the same time, we don't want a huge influx of custom crafts.  Relying on "master" level skill to limit things is thus problematic.

If only the heavy mercantile guilds could custom craft, you'd end up at 3/15, which is barely more than 1/6. That'd would still leave the light mercantile guilds behind, though.

But - this entire argument is based on the assumption that you will suddenly see more people playing mercantile classes, just because there are more mercantile options. And that all of these additional crafters want to submit a bunch of mastercrafts. Why would player preferences towards crafters or noncrafters suddenly change?

Zwen

  • Posts: 394
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 07:18:57 PM »
It seems that merchant houses are -always- on the lookout for those who can make custom crafts. Maybe also allow members of merchant houses the ability to make custom crafts when they are making them for that clan. After all crafters in these clans have virtual access to specialized tools & workshops, expert consultants, and access to materials others don't when it comes to their clan's specialized goods.

To build on this, the expectation from employers, particularly GMH, that a "real" crafter worth her salt will eventually be able to custom craft is a concern that comes to mind. Although I suppose the game will just adjust.

rinthrat

  • Posts: 12
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2018, 02:26:16 AM »
No more mastercrafting magickers, either.

Will you reconsider if the vast majority of players playing one of the mercantile guilds picks a mastercrafting sub?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 02:37:44 AM by rinthrat »

Brokkr

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2018, 12:53:42 AM »
Remember this is designed for the long game.

When Custom Crafter is a subclass, at zero karma.

And all the other "Master" subclasses that give both boosted skill and ability to custom craft select skills are at certain karma levels.  And the CGP point system is in play, so you cannot choose a karma subclass just because of your maximum karma, but spend and have to use current karma in order to do so.

I will be surprised if the vast majority of players playing a merchantile guild picks a mastercrafting subclass once we are in that situation, over a sustained period of time.  If that is occuring, it will be reflective of some underlying issue, that hopefully I, or whoever is on staff at that time, can identify and address.

JustAnotherGuy

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2018, 03:26:20 AM »
So if I understand this right, you're offering someone to pick a 0 karma subguild to give them the ability to Custom Craft?  They would get no additional benefits of the subguild, just the ability to Custom Craft?

If I understand it correctly, my main issue with it is that it's not realistic.  I cannot see how it fits in with the game world in the sense of roleplaying even.  Anything we have in the game needs to have a fit with the game world in my opinion, and well... I don't see how this fits.  This is why I suggested we work out ways to make it that people need the right tools, workshops, etc, to be able to to Custom Crafts, as it fits with the game world and is realistic to that world.  It seems we're trying to put a mechanic in place that doesn't fit.

I still think that we need to look at the procedure currently in place.  Maybe change it up to not be monthly anymore, or maybe Merchant Houses with their vast resources get Monthly, while Independents get bi-monthly unless they work into a Player Clan that has some sort of workshop or specialization in crafted goods.

At the end of it putting a mechanic in place I think could be jarring, while changing the current procedures would be more in line with what can help.  At the end of it, the whole point of changing Custom Crafts is to reduce staff workload, which I completely understand.
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Kankfly

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2018, 06:29:54 AM »
I don't like the idea of taking away the custom crafting option away from the new guilds. One of the main reasons why the new guilds are so attractive to me was the ability to craft things (eventually making its way to the ability to submit custom crafts) while still retaining some other coded skills that was not available to the full-crafting merchant class.

I agree with JustAnotherGuy that this isn't realistic. I understand with how the code works, there's some things that just aren't possible to do (such as creating a new food item on a whim - much like if I decided to stirfry mangos with bananas. They would taste horrible, but it would count as a MC IRL). With Arm, we can only wait for staff to code this in manually before we can make use of it IG. These are the coded limitations that is unable translate realism into the game. Alas!

I initially thought that both the heavy mercantile and light mercantile guilds have the custom crafting options. It opened a realm of possible concepts for me, due to the flexible skills I was able to pair and match.

1) Serve as a coin generator
This part is just not that interesting by itself and other things in the game can fulfill this purpose. It's not fun to craft the same set of items over and over again just to accumulate some coin.

Yes, this is my other concern. Currently, crafting classes are already like vending machines and coin generators. I personally love playing a crafting guild, and the reason why is the ability to custom craft. Take this away, and this is all crafters are going to be: Vending machines and coin generators. In this sense, what would be the purpose of people picking a crafting class?

I can think of a lot of interesting plots a crafter - with the ability to custom craft -  can come up with and engage the player base with.

A crafter in the GMH may seek out new and interesting materials for the GMH and create interesting new products to introduce to the player base.

An indie crafter, who is tribal and has no clan support, may create unique tribal items from their backgrounds to further and enhance their tribe lore.

A con artist, unaffiliated, may create things of interest and use them as props to further an elaborate con.

These are only a few examples off the top of my head, and I feel we would be robbed of all these things if we are to limit the ability to custom craft to one subguild. We can also argue that these things are all possible with that one single 0 subguild, but that also means limiting options when once, it is possible to create more interesting concepts. Rather than less.

I hope that made sense. Sorry for the long blurb.
I ruin immershunz.

Khorne8

  • Posts: 294
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2018, 11:55:31 AM »
Remember this is designed for the long game.

When Custom Crafter is a subclass, at zero karma.


As was mentioned earlier, this would mean no magicker/custom crafter options, right?  Since the only way to custom craft would also be the only way to magicker?  Or would it be possible for a magicker player to spec app in and ask for a character note to be added that they're allowed to custom craft 'X' from their mainguild?

Brokkr

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2018, 12:43:34 PM »
It is intentional that it would create trade offs in subclass selection.  No having your cake and eating it too.

I'm not sure about the argument that it isn't realistic.  At one point, you could suggest anything.  Then we created the concept of custom crafting.  It was restricted, mostly by skill level.  This is just changing what the restriction is.  These restrictions are in place to limit staff workload, just as they have been since they started.

Kankfly

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Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2018, 08:53:12 PM »
Alright, if this is the final decision, may I suggest a compromise?

I'm thinking maybe if we can have the ability to custom craft set as a 'hidden' subguild, in a sense where it would cost the player, let's say, 1 karma/CGP to have that option enabled (when they app for a new PC), then they can still pick a guild and subguild combo with their remaining karma/CGP.

The advantages would be that players would still be able to pick a guild and subguild without limiting themselves to just one subguild (custom crafting enabled) only. It allows a bit more wiggle room in terms of character creation - in terms of balancing storytelling and coded skills. Players who don't have enough karma for the concept in mind can special app. This can help limit the custom craft requests once the new guilds are in place.

I ruin immershunz.

Klendathu

  • Posts: 71
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2018, 01:12:40 AM »
Woo, finally found my password to this alt.

I have to say I really dislike the sound of this change. I was one of those who had assumed the Heavy Mercantiles would get to Custom Craft much as we currently Master-Craft. I can't say I ever planned to play a Heavy Merchant because I like having actual non-crafting skills, but this just cements my disinterest in them.

While I'm glad Advanced Subguilds will allow Custom Crafting as we're used to it, I'm not sure how well this 0-karma Custom Crafter subguild will go over. It seems to be asking players to give up a lot in order to Custom Craft... whatever it is I assume they can craft via Guild?

Unless you have 1 or 2 karma, that is, in which case you can just take your Advanced Subguild of choice and enjoy multiple options. Glad I as I am personally for this, I worry how it's going to go over given the recent kerfluffle over "inadequate" karma progression for newer players.

Decameron

  • Posts: 545
Re: Custom Crafting
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2018, 02:48:43 PM »
I agree with the sentiment that custom crafting is one of the major allures of choosing a merchant class.

I understand that custom-crafting takes up staff resources, and would require some coding for the recipes, etc. I wish there were another approach by which volunteers were allowed enough access to accomplish this task, as it would both alleviate the staff burden and allow players to continue to create custom crafts (possibly more frequently than a month per) once they were reviewed and approved by staff.

At this particular point, I feel as though there wouldn't be a particular advantage in choosing a merchant-heavy class and going with the custom craft rather than going with a combat-heavy selection / advanced subguild that would allow for this as it seems it's the best of both worlds.