Author Topic: Stop Asking for Drovians  (Read 1885 times)

TheWanderer

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Stop Asking for Drovians
« on: May 28, 2018, 01:47:57 PM »
State-sponsored magickal spies (whether Drovian or Psion) are oppressively terrible ideas. This is mostly because the majority of the population has no way to spot these things, thus limiting the risk to the offending party. The current presence of mindbenders within the game is acceptable because they're hunted and killed by all major powers, whereas Drovians would again become the go-to spy for certain elements in Allanak. A go-to spy with no natural counter.

Before you say it, no. "Use another Drovian to spot the spy" is not an acceptable counter. There's a generally held belief that people should follow docs instead of constantly eroding them.

It's fairly simple logic, and hopefully it'll come to be seen as such. Let Drovians die. You should, however, continue pestering about the others! Nilazi was a cool class.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 01:49:44 PM by TheWanderer »
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frankjacoby

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 02:05:56 PM »
Thank you Overlord

Akaramu

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 02:16:07 PM »
I'll never stop asking for Drovians and I love being spied on. :P Doesn't matter to me if it's a Drovian or a max hide / sneak assassin. People should never feel safe...

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 538
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 02:19:37 PM »
What if we got Drovians back but they were declared anathema in Allanak? No reason they couldn't be tweaked in addition to that, as well.

The Lonely Hunter

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2018, 02:49:49 PM »
I would love to see them back but I didn't realized there were so many people asking.

To counter drovians you can always just murder them. I never saw it as a problem, from either side. Sucks when you get spied on but that in itself leads to plots.
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Jihelu

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2018, 04:26:40 PM »
Tfw people complain about a spell that drovians don't have anymore.


Anyway, give me Drovians.

Vox

  • Posts: 416
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2018, 04:55:43 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

The presence of Drovians created a sense of true fear regardless of barriered minds and secret meeting spots and FEAR IS GOOD.

Full elementalist guilds in general could and did often create this sense of true magick fear because of the combination of spells available to them. I sadly find this lacking in the current iteration of subguild-only magick due to the lack of spell combination possibility.

Anyway, the game always benefits when it utilizes its Dark Sun roots and suffers when it runs from them, in my opinion.

Erythil

  • Posts: 1234
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2018, 05:10:57 PM »
Simple, just add an affordable natural counter.

This would not even require new code.  I'd elaborate but the rules would be against it.

I don't think the game benefits from excising whole thematic options.  Find ways to bring them into balance without expunging them completely.

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1496
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2018, 05:16:50 PM »
What if we got Drovians back but they were declared anathema in Allanak? No reason they couldn't be tweaked in addition to that, as well.

This would be clunky to implement for an established gemmed sect that still technically exists in the game but is no longer available to PCs. I suppose it couldn't be any clunkier than some of the other game removals/additions, though.

The removal of state sponsorship (acceptance by the powers that be) is obviously one of the keys.

To counter drovians you can always just murder them. I never saw it as a problem, from either side. Sucks when you get spied on but that in itself leads to plots.

Astute observation. To counter anyone, you can just murder them. I'll murder someone for spying on me regardless of whether they're mundane or fantastical.

The issue was the distinct lack of risk in -discovery- for a Drovian, coupled with the fact that they were frequently used by PC Templars and Oash nobles as a completely unseen spy. They served as a lesser version of Lirathans for Allanak. Even mundanes employed them on occasion, and it's easy to do so when you know where they all congregate.

As previously stated, the majority of the population couldn't detect them. When you assumed you were spied on by a Drovian, your options to discover the culprit were ignoring docs and employing another or having a templar at your side for hours on end. The latter is not particularly feasible (unless mudsex partners).

There's no recourse to be had. Mundane spies were nullified for the Templarate by a class that could do the same thing with none of the risk of physically being there or getting caught. You as a mundane could always kill them on hunches, but I feel that would set a bad precedent. As bad as waiting outside the Temple of Drov or whatever and simply killing every Drovian PC you see.

I'll never stop asking for Drovians and I love being spied on. :P Doesn't matter to me if it's a Drovian or a max hide / sneak assassin. People should never feel safe...

You're right. You shouldn't feel safe, and there should be an amount of risk involved for both parties. Naturally, there's a greater amount of risk for a max sneak/hide spying in a compound, alley, apartment, etc.

I feel like I should stress that the primary issue was the state sponsorship and acceptance of them. I'm all for a reintroduction of Drovians if they're hunted/given more counters. Otherwise, Drovians and Lirathans felt out of place due to the safety nets they had. All-knowing forces for the city-states are always more of a hindrance, and in a playerbase as small as this, something that should have been a rare encounter became all too common. That's especially true whenever there's a smaller pool of players.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 05:30:05 PM by TheWanderer »
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Delirium

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2018, 05:20:22 PM »
State-sponsored magickal spies (whether Drovian or Psion) are oppressively terrible ideas.

I agree. I would like to see subguild Nilazis return, but if we ever get subguild Drovians, I never want to see that spell return to the realm of PCs who are capable of using it from a position of total safety, a.k.a. gemmed mages.
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Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

Malken

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2018, 05:50:05 PM »
I don't think that anything that has been removed from the game will ever return so no worries there. Do we have any examples of something that has been removed from the game before and returned? Houses don't really count because they are mostly cycled around.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 538
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2018, 06:41:21 PM »
It's a small example, but my understanding is that expel was implemented, removed, and then re-implemented. It really is all I can think of, though.

Drovians, Nilazi, and Elkrosians returning in the form of subguilds wouldn't be exactly like something being removed and then reinstated, however, since there have never been subguilds of them. But I agree that it's never happening. It's one of the things that makes me saddest to admit, but I don't think staff will ever subguild these removed mages. I think they've even said they had zero plans to ever do it. So yeah, agreed, I don't think it matters what we think about this particular removal. It's a hard foot-down situation.

Akariel

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 06:43:35 PM »

sleepyhead

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 06:50:40 PM »
 Yep, just like that. :'(

Eyeball

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2018, 08:07:15 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

If all you want is crab mentality. I.e. people tearing down others' attempts to build or achieve (extremely difficult already).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 08:08:52 PM by Eyeball »

Vox

  • Posts: 416
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2018, 08:34:38 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

If all you want is crab mentality. I.e. people tearing down others' attempts to build or achieve (extremely difficult already).

Well, yes, yes I do. That's kind of the whole point of MURDER CORRUPTION BETRAYAL not everyone singing the 'everything is awesome' song all happily working together to 'build'/'achieve'.

I think the whole paradigm of building and achieving needs redefining in this game anyhow. So there's that. :P

Krath

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2018, 08:54:16 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

If all you want is crab mentality. I.e. people tearing down others' attempts to build or achieve (extremely difficult already).

Well, yes, yes I do. That's kind of the whole point of MURDER CORRUPTION BETRAYAL not everyone singing the 'everything is awesome' song all happily working together to 'build'/'achieve'.

I think the whole paradigm of building and achieving needs redefining in this game anyhow. So there's that. :P

This and his first post sum up my thoughts about the current state.
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Cuz I rise above the rest like
'mon un whira [IC info removed]'

sleepyhead

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2018, 09:10:18 PM »
Reading back, my comment did seem a little bitchy and presumptuous. I guess what I mean is that if staff want to subguild those elements, it'll be wonderful, but in the meantime, I don't think it really helps to beg (which I have done many times). They know we want (most of?) them back already, but they've said they don't have any plans. So lately I've just contented myself by crossing my fingers that those plans will change some day without getting my hopes up.

Eyeball

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2018, 11:12:40 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

If all you want is crab mentality. I.e. people tearing down others' attempts to build or achieve (extremely difficult already).

Well, yes, yes I do. That's kind of the whole point of MURDER CORRUPTION BETRAYAL not everyone singing the 'everything is awesome' song all happily working together to 'build'/'achieve'.

I think the whole paradigm of building and achieving needs redefining in this game anyhow. So there's that. :P

When was it decided that Armageddon Mud was Killer/Social only? It certainly didn't start out that way.

Delirium

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2018, 11:15:56 PM »
Without the people who try to accomplish things, y'all wouldn't have anything to relentlessly destroy.
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Dar

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2018, 01:24:04 AM »
Stop asking to legalize the word Necker!

Yeah. I know nobody is asking about it. But I think it's a stupid rule and I would like to indirectly create a conversation about it.

MeTekillot

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2018, 05:59:08 AM »
Bans necker but "gypsy" is common permitted IC and OOC parlance.

Delirium

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2018, 11:45:46 AM »
Please make your own thread for that. If you really think it's necessary.
Will they tell your story in the end?
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tapas

  • Posts: 273
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2018, 08:29:23 PM »
I liked everything about Drovians except for that ONE spell that everybody else hated.

Personally I'd love to see a drov-touched that gives:

A handful of darkness based spells
That really sick vision spell
Master climb

Master Sandwich

  • Posts: 15
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2018, 08:44:30 PM »
Is asking for Drovians a problem? Who's asking? Why should they stop? The original post seems more like a rant, and if that's indeed the case, never mind. If not, keep reading.

The abilities that made Drovians super spies could be made less problematic with more risks and less effective.

If all else, those abilities could be redesigned or just replaced with other abilities.

Drovians are still a part of the magickal landscape even if players can't play them. If they can be re-added while removing the problematic functionality, it fills in the existing gap and people will stop asking for Drovians.

Vox

  • Posts: 416
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2018, 09:22:16 PM »
What I find truly sad about those that complain about Drovians and ‘that spell’ in particular, is that they never bothered to investigate IC means of nonmagickal protection from it. There are significant drawbacks to the spell and the levels of vulnerablity it presented for both the caster and the ‘thing being cast’.. there are several significant ways to utterly counter that spell with very little effort.

If people actually made plots out of their fears and IC’ly studied these things instead of OOC’ly ranting about them there’d be less removed and more added to the game as a general rule. :P
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 09:33:30 PM by Vox »

TheWanderer

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2018, 10:04:05 PM »
Wow. There's a strong tendency to perceive incendiary tones on the GDB. 

My thoughts on the title were akin to something like "Stop Spreading Misinformation: Vaccines" and then you delve into the bullet points. In future, I'll go with something along the lines of "Why You Should Rethink Drovians" in the hopes that fewer people take issue. 

I have a belief that there are a selection of players that would prefer Drovians back in their initial form, not a reworked class sacrificing the magickal spy identity they'd taken on for two decades - again, not particularly keen on magickal spies that aren't actively hunted. This is a post for discussion about a subject people have sporadically bumped into various conversations over the years, and is still obviously on a host of minds. Plus the GDB is -so- boring lately.

Is there an expectation that I literally sort through every post since the introduction of magick subguilds mentioning Drovians? GDB -and- Discord? Catalog the collection and list them in a lengthy display to provide irrevocable proof that people have asked for them before?

Anyway. As previously stated, Drovians assisted in making something that should have been a rare encounter an all too common one. Absurdly.

Bans necker but "gypsy" is common permitted IC and OOC parlance.

Oh. That'd be an interesting thread. You should make that.

Without the people who try to accomplish things, y'all wouldn't have anything to relentlessly destroy.

This is a good quote. Signature worthy, even.

I don't think that anything that has been removed from the game will ever return so no worries there. Do we have any examples of something that has been removed from the game before and returned? Houses don't really count because they are mostly cycled around.

True. It's got about a .1% chance of happening, but it's possible.
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flurry

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2018, 10:05:59 PM »
While I was sad to see the Drovian option go, I understand staff made the decision to improve the game. I respect that. I don't expect to see pc Drovians back the way they were, although I'm happy I got to play a couple.

I do want to say a couple things in defense of Drovians and players of Drovians.

First, Drovians seem to have had a strange evolution of public opinion. When I first played one about ten years ago, the guild was just as powerful as it has been all along, but the general opinion seemed to be that it was a niche option, and the weakest choice among the elementalists. Since that time, the karma requirement dropped, making the option more accessible. Then, eventually, it seemed that people decided that the guild was the bane of plots. The guild didn't change significantly over that decade, but people's perception of it did.

Seeing some of the discussion of Drovians on the GDB over the past couple years has been frustrating. Especially comments suggesting that people who played those roles did so with the intention of ruining plots. I suppose there are griefers in every guild. Speaking only for myself, I never set out to try to ruin any plots, and I think I did more good than harm in that regard.

The whole plot-ruining concern always struck me as a little exaggerated, although I don't doubt that some people had legitimate complaints about some Drovians. It's just that people talked about Drovains as if they were the only thing standing between Armageddon and an abundant cornucopia of plots. (How did that turn out, anyway? I actually don't know the answer.)

What I find truly sad about those that complain about Drovians and ‘that spell’ in particular, is that they never bothered to investigate IC means of nonmagickal protection from it. There are significant drawbacks to the spell and the levels of vulnerablity it presented for both the caster and the ‘thing being cast’.. there are several significant ways to utterly counter that spell with very little effort.

If people actually made plots out of their fears and IC’ly studied these things instead of OOC’ly ranting about them there’d be less removed and more added to the game as a general rule. :P

A thousand times this. There were built-in limitations, mundane defenses, and risks even with "that spell." Maybe those things should have been dialed up a bit, but they were there.
Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas.

lostinspace

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2018, 11:09:25 PM »
If Tuluk ever reopens, there will be a place psions are more accepted, and drovians are killed on sight. I hope both come back eventually.
3/21/16 Never Forget

stoicreader

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2018, 11:20:43 PM »
I played a mud recently with magic. It was so satisfying.
Meh

Malken

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2018, 05:51:18 AM »
What I find truly sad about those that complain about Drovians and ‘that spell’ in particular, is that they never bothered to investigate IC means of nonmagickal protection from it.

You mean like sitting at tables?  ::)  ;D
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

tapas

  • Posts: 273
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2018, 06:20:35 AM »
What I find truly sad about those that complain about Drovians and ‘that spell’ in particular, is that they never bothered to investigate IC means of nonmagickal protection from it.

You mean like sitting at tables?  ::)  ;D

For those wondering, this little bit of counter play wasn't current even 8 years ago.

Vox

  • Posts: 416
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2018, 09:46:32 PM »
What I find truly sad about those that complain about Drovians and ‘that spell’ in particular, is that they never bothered to investigate IC means of nonmagickal protection from it.

You mean like sitting at tables?  ::)  ;D

For those wondering, this little bit of counter play wasn't current even 8 years ago.

There were updates to follow code that quickly nullified what was easily an oversight in that regard. But absolutely not what I was referring to.

Location, time of day, environmental factors, etc. And any number of things one could discover if they took the time to do so. The spell had limits, but its existence helped inject a general sense of fear that I think is currently missing in regard to magick in general.

As much as I believe that the roots of the tree of the playerbase are refreshed with the blood spilled when killing long-lived PC's, I'm not one for just griefing plots or destroying people's attempts to build/achieve for no IC reason. My point is that greater RP opportunities exist for a greater number of players when secret plans and plots aren't secret.

Magickal spies meant more precautions needed to be taken and that every shadow and dark corner was suspect. Striving to build/achieve is great and necessary, but so is striving to counter those things. These two forces yin and yang each other to a degree and the more ways we can find to make both sides really challenging keeps us focused on enjoying the process and all the delicious conflict RP involved along the way rather than some perceived product.

I guess this is all just a long-winded way of saying "No, I'm not going to stop asking for Drovians" :)

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2018, 11:26:47 PM »
It is my great dream to pay a drovian, or a Nilazi, or a psionicist.

I would pay money to play one of these.
Meh

Riev

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2018, 09:51:43 AM »
It is my great dream to pay a drovian, or a Nilazi, or a psionicist.

I would pay money to play one of these.

I played a Drovian once that got decently powerful. Before the follow-code and this whole spygate crap.

Sure, they COULD be used that way, but it took a real lot to be able to do that. A lot of preparation, a lot of timing, and leaving yourself open. I went the path of more of a battle-drovian, attacking from the shadows etc etc... even in that iteration of magickers they weren't omgosh overpowered. They were fun. They had a niche. They had an IC hatred of Krathis as a counterbalance.

But a couple used their skills to spy on top-tier plots (like the fucking templarate doesn't have master full drovians on their pet list still). I'll keep asking for them so long as they exist in the world. They didn't remove Drovians, just a PC's ability to represent them.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Veselka

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2018, 11:51:01 AM »
Fuck Drovians.

I miss the villainy of Nilazi for sure. That “scariness” that Vox mentions. It was an aspect of the game that really set it apart.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

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frankjacoby

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2018, 02:21:10 PM »
I'm pouring out a fifth for Armageddon and the magick that was ruined.

stoicreader

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2018, 01:17:13 PM »
I'm pouring out a fifth for Armageddon and the magick that was ruined.

I love your sentiment and will join you.
Meh

Harmless

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2018, 02:06:26 PM »
I'm pouring out a fifth for Armageddon and the magick that was ruined.

I love your sentiment and will join you.

I don't think ruined is quite right, but I still really miss the mainguild magickers. I am just glad that there is still any magick at all in this fantasy setting. I would quit for good if they removed them outright.
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stoicreader

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2018, 06:37:56 PM »
I'm pouring out a fifth for Armageddon and the magick that was ruined.

I love your sentiment and will join you.

I don't think ruined is quite right, but I still really miss the mainguild magickers. I am just glad that there is still any magick at all in this fantasy setting. I would quit for good if they removed them outright.

I read about magical rings made by krathis, is this still a thing?

Doesn't matter. I don't have Karma. Apparently I'm not trustworthy.

I would put cash on deposit as a hedge for good behavior to play these roles. Shoot, I would outright pay for them. I'd even lie to my grandma to play a psi. I'd lie to my mother in law too. But everyone lies to their mother in law so that obviously shouldn't count.
Meh

Delirium

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2018, 06:50:11 PM »
I don't know if the irony was deliberate, but... *slow clap*
Will they tell your story in the end?
Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

tapas

  • Posts: 273
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2018, 07:00:16 PM »
It's 2018

Sorcerers are the new Nilazis, Elkrans and Drovians.

Also who said psions were out of the game?

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2018, 08:02:10 PM »
It's 2018

Sorcerers are the new Nilazis, Elkrans and Drovians.

Also who said psions were out of the game?

Not an option for new players. No more Karma review. Anyway, I was googling Arm to search about the forage skill and this other GDB popped up, privately run. Everyone there thinks the game is dying?

I wonder if I should even bother. Maybe get into another game.
Meh

Hauwke

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2018, 08:49:30 PM »
That would be the Shadow Board, its full of negativity and crap. The vast majority of the people on it are probably banned for insane shennanigans and are just whining because they got offended and cant play anymore.

Besides, Arm has been around for almost 30 years, if it was going to die it probably already would have. Which is not to say that it wont after another 30 years, who knows.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 08:51:51 PM by Hauwke »

TheWanderer

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Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2018, 08:55:33 PM »
If you beg for karma on the GDB, you're less likely to get it. Easiest way to earn it is to play a leadership role and not absolutely suck. There's usually a small pool of applicants for a lot of calls (save the Templarate), so your odds are decent if you go the sponsored route.

By the time you're finished they'll have hopefully opened reviews again.

----

Now with a slightly more on-topic note, the game feels better when you can do shady shit at night and be reasonably safe in the assumption that every PC Templar was not immediately notified afterwards. It feels better that a number of scouting missions go back to physical entities. It feels better that you can run a raiding crew or some other sort of antagonistic organization and not constantly have Drovians track you through the Known for Gemmed Team 6.

It's a nice change of pace, and psions quite easily fulfill the role of being that terrifying spy force in the world. One that doesn't have the safety nets of a city-state to catch it.
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Whatever happens, happens.

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2018, 09:18:49 PM »
If you beg for karma on the GDB, you're less likely to get it. Easiest way to earn it is to play a leadership role and not absolutely suck. There's usually a small pool of applicants for a lot of calls (save the Templarate), so your odds are decent if you go the sponsored route.

By the time you're finished they'll have hopefully opened reviews again.

I'm resigned to the fact that I will likely never get Karma. Leadership isn't I the cards for me as I'm an off peak player and randomly need to log off to care for my infant.

In less time than I've played, I can be trusted with a child (conception and childbirth) but not an apothecary extended sub guild.

Wouldn't want to let an off peak 32 year old parent break the game with a non-violent HG grebber concept or a tribal apothecary concept. God forbid this player PK a bunch of folks as a rougue merchant, or with a warrior master clay worker.

I hate to complain, but what else can I do?
Meh

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1624
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2018, 09:32:13 PM »
One of the criteria for karma is longevity, just dont die for awhile, then send in a report asking for karma once they are back open again.

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1496
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2018, 09:41:27 PM »
I hate to complain, but what else can I do?

I sympathize! A lot of players have been there.

Realistically, the only option you probably have right now is a special app. It's a mind-numbing month+ wait, but maybe you can ask for a quicker review process. If you're not a troublesome player, it's unlikely they'd decline a request for an extended subguild.

Otherwise, I dunno. There's no good answer. It's a weird decision to let the karma review process sit in limbo for over half a year.
Quote
Whatever happens, happens.

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11837
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2018, 09:46:57 PM »
It would probably help if you tried to have a more positive attitude. Enjoy exploring the game, roleplaying with the options you have, and learning how the gameworld works. This is an old game with a lot to discover, and that's part of the charm. If you laid everything bare after a few months of playing, you wouldn't have veteran players who are still having fun uncovering new stuff after 13+ years of characters. The discoveries and the mysteries, the learning curve, and the depth of roleplay are what made this game so enduring to me for so many years. So take a deep breath and enjoy the ride.
Will they tell your story in the end?
Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 9685
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2018, 09:57:42 PM »
There's no expectation not to have to log off randomly if you play a sponsored role, as long as you play regularly. We need off-peak leaders too. Maybe try not being so querulous.

Refugee

  • Posts: 1727
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2018, 10:48:32 PM »
Karma is nice to have, it makes you feel good, like a pat on the back.  When I didn't have any, I worried about it.  I get it.

Now that I've got karma,  I've not used it for anything that I can remember.  It just sits there making me feel appreciated.  Which is nice.

But my regular guy PCs sure have ended up in lots of crazy fun stuff.  It's surprising the places they end up!  I suggest not worrying about karma and just have fun.  Karma will come.  But you certainly don't need it for having a blast.




Grapes

  • Posts: 416
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2018, 02:46:46 AM »
Stoicreader, don't let the negativity on those forums influence you too heavily, also, I'm not digging the karma barrier myself, or the adjustments to spec apps. I'm not going to give a detailed breakdown but some of what you see there is utterly full of shit... some of it isn't, not going into all that. I will, however, say one thing, most, most of the bitching that has gone on there has been dealt with here over time.

Not all, but show me a perfect community and I'll show you a blockbuster horror movie script.

ETA: Also, really looking forward to when this main guild change is a thing.

ETAA: The real problem is the playerbase trying to double down on the Machiavellian aspect when they don't even understand Machiavelli in the first place. Leads to some real wtf IC moments. That's a human problem, one you can see at your local Wendy's, thank you, please drive through.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 03:22:28 AM by Grapes »
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6708
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2018, 04:00:40 AM »
There's no expectation not to have to log off randomly if you play a sponsored role, as long as you play regularly. We need off-peak leaders too. Maybe try not being so querulous.

The sad truth is that off-peak leaders will encounter various issues that on-peak leaders do not. The same is true for off-peak players in general. I've tried being an offpeak leader and no thanks, never again.

I can 100% relate to stoicreader's complaints. Karma reviews have been closed for what feels like forever. Why is this taking so long?

Grapes

  • Posts: 416
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2018, 04:05:54 AM »
Akaramu's, well, right. Try playing off-peak in a GMH, for one, the discussion of which led me to sig the quote below. It's unfair to off-peakers that people who play at peak times are so much more encouraged than off-peak. Where's Party-guy when you need him? I hear they exploded a confused raptor or something, although, that could have been a bunch of humor.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2018, 09:34:48 AM »
There's no expectation not to have to log off randomly if you play a sponsored role, as long as you play regularly. We need off-peak leaders too. Maybe try not being so querulous.

The sad truth is that off-peak leaders will encounter various issues that on-peak leaders do not. The same is true for off-peak players in general. I've tried being an offpeak leader and no thanks, never again.

I can 100% relate to stoicreader's complaints. Karma reviews have been closed for what feels like forever. Why is this taking so long?

I've had one foot out the door for some time. The staff it's respectful, and courteous, and extremely polite to me. I love the professionalism I receive with my crap character reports. I love the game too, but at the same time I feel like it's time to play another.

The other mud I started playing (instead of Armageddon), already offered me to be a builder and opened up all the classes. The philosophy is, if I abuse it, they just take it away. No. Biggie. But they also found out who I was OOC and wanted to use my name. (I'm a published fantasy writer) Grain of salt taken.

I can get a job being a bus driver... And in less time than it takes me to get staff trust with karma, the lives of every individual on that bus will be in my hands.

Drov, nope. HG, highly unlikely. Apothecary, maybe when my baby is in the 4th grade, but probably not.
Meh

Akariel

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 565
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2018, 11:10:36 AM »
A great way to get staff attention, which unless you're actively doing things against the lore or abusing the code, is a great way to earn karma without requesting a review:

-Wish up whenever you leave the gates. "Wish all Hey, going out hunting gortok with Amos and Talia. Any animations would be appreciated!"
--We have staff on almost all the time, and while storytellers may not want to jump on something specific to a clan they don't handle, wilderness animations are normally free game. Bringing people out to do things is always a plus, but moreso if you spend time emoting and living in the world. (Rather than just spam kill 20 gortok, spam skin them, mount, find the next 20.)

-Send in reports about what you're planning, what you're going to do to see those plans through, and then follow them through.
--One of the main things I see in reports is people planning things and then just... Never doing them? Or in some extreme cases, planning things, never working on it IC, and then asking a few months later to see the result of the thing they talked about once months prior. Reporting, then taking action to do a thing is a good way to get karma.

-Involve other people.
--You need to go get some coin to buy a fancy new dagger? Hire a buddy to guard you while you go salting. You need to get a sekrit message to Amos? Hire someone to pass that message along. You want to get fancy armor? Ask people who's the best armorcrafter they know. The more people you involve, the more likely we are to hear about what you're doing.

-Stick to the docs.
--Elves are thieves - make a point of it whenever you see someone getting too chummy with them. Half giants are gigantic oafs who could kill you if they forget their name, remind them of their place in society. Dwarves are weird piss-drinking things that can't ever think outside the box, call them on it. Muls aren't people, why are we talking about them? Ect ect. Strong connections with the documentation tends to get kudos, and kudos tend to tell us who is doing things right - which leads to karma.

None of the above requires being in a leadership role. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that a majority of the karma given out over the last year or two has been to non-leadership roles.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 538
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2018, 11:26:19 AM »
The whole point (or at least a big part of the point) of shrinking the karma scale was to make it seem less daunting to new players. New players looked at the old 8-point scale and it seemed to them like they'd have to play 15 years to get anywhere close to max karma. My understanding is that the 3-point scale was to dismantle what Nergal called (and I might be slightly paraphrasing here) the "aristocracy of old players" and give newer players a shot.

I know that you guys have your plans as far as when you're going to open up karma reviews, and I respect that. But I am starting to find it really concerning that new players keep bringing up the lack of karma reviews as disheartening and discouraging. I know, karma isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be, and people can spec app, but whether or not it's justified doesn't change the fact that new players feel slighted, and some of them are walking out or thinking about doing so. Whether they're putting too much emphasis on karma or not, I don't feel comfortable with that.

It seems that this "aristocracy of old players" that was supposed to be torn down is starting to feel more real than ever to new Armers. We established players are running around casually bandying about our karma to play an extended subguild here, a magicker there, no big deal, while the new blood has no idea when they will even be allowed to so much as ask for their first karma point. And they can't even think about their second for a long time after that unspecified point. It just seems...really unfair to the newbies we're trying to retain.

So, I'd like to suggest that maybe we could open up karma reviews JUST for 0 karma players. In addition to helping fight the discouragement I talked about, it'd help stem the the unbearable tide of karma reviews that will no doubt come in once they're fully opened. I know it hasn't been you guys' plan, but if it helps retain just a few disappointed new players, I'm absolutely all for it. What do you think?

Maybe I should make my own thread about this.

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1103
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2018, 11:37:19 AM »
I know that you guys have your plans as far as when you're going to open up karma reviews, and I respect that. But I am starting to find it really concerning that new players keep bringing up the lack of karma reviews as disheartening and discouraging.

I find it annoying.  This is a player who feels slighted by their inability to play a guild that hasn't even existed since they started posting on the GDB.  Something doesn't add up.
The neat, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
     "I tried hairy...Im sorry"

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 538
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2018, 11:41:53 AM »
It adds up just fine to me. Halflings were removed before I started playing, but I still feel sad that I'll never get to try one.

And it's really not about any one particular newbie. It's a trend I've noticed that new players feel discouraged about the lack of karma reviews.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 205
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2018, 11:50:43 AM »
Yeah, and I went to the 'Ask the Staff' thread a long time ago about wanting mantis back. Perfectly newbish then, still somewhat of a newb now.
Die gedanken sind frei.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 205
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2018, 11:57:26 AM »
I find it annoying.  This is a player who feels slighted by their inability to play a guild that hasn't even existed since they started posting on the GDB.  Something doesn't add up.

So, why do you feel that way? This is more than likely just a new player who feels a bit discouraged is all. I mean... you can't really blame them, these races and classes are still on the main website, displayed in such a way that to a newbie it seems like they are still available.
Die gedanken sind frei.

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1496
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2018, 12:45:00 PM »
because it’s a shadowboard plot to spread dissent and despair amongst the playerbase, obviously. how could a new player possibly have criticisms about the biggest time sink in the entire world?! or lament the fact that well-documented pieces of the game are unavailable and others won’t be available to them for years to come? that’s absurd!

C’mon. Don’t trivialize valid concerns and bury your head in the sand by constantly searching for an ulterior motive.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 12:51:53 PM by TheWanderer »
Quote
Whatever happens, happens.

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1103
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2018, 12:54:15 PM »
Sorry, you guys are right.  That was uncool of me :)
The neat, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
     "I tried hairy...Im sorry"

MarshallDFX

  • Posts: 1531
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2018, 01:02:46 PM »
Just to be a rough guide, in 2009 I played ~65 days on a char in a mediocre but consistent fashion and got to what today would be 2 karma.

Was declined to bring them back as a gladiator a year later but that's no worries, staff awareness of what characters were about seemed waaay less back then.

If it's harder than that now, it's hilarious nonsense and revoke my karma.  Maybe not a terrible idea anyways :)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 01:06:37 PM by MarshallDFX »