Author Topic: Stop Asking for Drovians  (Read 1883 times)

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1496
Stop Asking for Drovians
« on: May 28, 2018, 01:47:57 PM »
State-sponsored magickal spies (whether Drovian or Psion) are oppressively terrible ideas. This is mostly because the majority of the population has no way to spot these things, thus limiting the risk to the offending party. The current presence of mindbenders within the game is acceptable because they're hunted and killed by all major powers, whereas Drovians would again become the go-to spy for certain elements in Allanak. A go-to spy with no natural counter.

Before you say it, no. "Use another Drovian to spot the spy" is not an acceptable counter. There's a generally held belief that people should follow docs instead of constantly eroding them.

It's fairly simple logic, and hopefully it'll come to be seen as such. Let Drovians die. You should, however, continue pestering about the others! Nilazi was a cool class.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 01:49:44 PM by TheWanderer »
Quote
Whatever happens, happens.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 152
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 02:05:56 PM »
Thank you Overlord

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6708
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 02:16:07 PM »
I'll never stop asking for Drovians and I love being spied on. :P Doesn't matter to me if it's a Drovian or a max hide / sneak assassin. People should never feel safe...

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 538
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 02:19:37 PM »
What if we got Drovians back but they were declared anathema in Allanak? No reason they couldn't be tweaked in addition to that, as well.

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 874
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2018, 02:49:49 PM »
I would love to see them back but I didn't realized there were so many people asking.

To counter drovians you can always just murder them. I never saw it as a problem, from either side. Sucks when you get spied on but that in itself leads to plots.
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

"Don't do this. I can't believe I have to write this post."
-Rathustra

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2609
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2018, 04:26:40 PM »
Tfw people complain about a spell that drovians don't have anymore.


Anyway, give me Drovians.

Vox

  • Posts: 416
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2018, 04:55:43 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

The presence of Drovians created a sense of true fear regardless of barriered minds and secret meeting spots and FEAR IS GOOD.

Full elementalist guilds in general could and did often create this sense of true magick fear because of the combination of spells available to them. I sadly find this lacking in the current iteration of subguild-only magick due to the lack of spell combination possibility.

Anyway, the game always benefits when it utilizes its Dark Sun roots and suffers when it runs from them, in my opinion.

Erythil

  • Posts: 1234
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2018, 05:10:57 PM »
Simple, just add an affordable natural counter.

This would not even require new code.  I'd elaborate but the rules would be against it.

I don't think the game benefits from excising whole thematic options.  Find ways to bring them into balance without expunging them completely.

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1496
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2018, 05:16:50 PM »
What if we got Drovians back but they were declared anathema in Allanak? No reason they couldn't be tweaked in addition to that, as well.

This would be clunky to implement for an established gemmed sect that still technically exists in the game but is no longer available to PCs. I suppose it couldn't be any clunkier than some of the other game removals/additions, though.

The removal of state sponsorship (acceptance by the powers that be) is obviously one of the keys.

To counter drovians you can always just murder them. I never saw it as a problem, from either side. Sucks when you get spied on but that in itself leads to plots.

Astute observation. To counter anyone, you can just murder them. I'll murder someone for spying on me regardless of whether they're mundane or fantastical.

The issue was the distinct lack of risk in -discovery- for a Drovian, coupled with the fact that they were frequently used by PC Templars and Oash nobles as a completely unseen spy. They served as a lesser version of Lirathans for Allanak. Even mundanes employed them on occasion, and it's easy to do so when you know where they all congregate.

As previously stated, the majority of the population couldn't detect them. When you assumed you were spied on by a Drovian, your options to discover the culprit were ignoring docs and employing another or having a templar at your side for hours on end. The latter is not particularly feasible (unless mudsex partners).

There's no recourse to be had. Mundane spies were nullified for the Templarate by a class that could do the same thing with none of the risk of physically being there or getting caught. You as a mundane could always kill them on hunches, but I feel that would set a bad precedent. As bad as waiting outside the Temple of Drov or whatever and simply killing every Drovian PC you see.

I'll never stop asking for Drovians and I love being spied on. :P Doesn't matter to me if it's a Drovian or a max hide / sneak assassin. People should never feel safe...

You're right. You shouldn't feel safe, and there should be an amount of risk involved for both parties. Naturally, there's a greater amount of risk for a max sneak/hide spying in a compound, alley, apartment, etc.

I feel like I should stress that the primary issue was the state sponsorship and acceptance of them. I'm all for a reintroduction of Drovians if they're hunted/given more counters. Otherwise, Drovians and Lirathans felt out of place due to the safety nets they had. All-knowing forces for the city-states are always more of a hindrance, and in a playerbase as small as this, something that should have been a rare encounter became all too common. That's especially true whenever there's a smaller pool of players.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 05:30:05 PM by TheWanderer »
Quote
Whatever happens, happens.

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11837
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2018, 05:20:22 PM »
State-sponsored magickal spies (whether Drovian or Psion) are oppressively terrible ideas.

I agree. I would like to see subguild Nilazis return, but if we ever get subguild Drovians, I never want to see that spell return to the realm of PCs who are capable of using it from a position of total safety, a.k.a. gemmed mages.
Will they tell your story in the end?
Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

Malken

  • Posts: 9088
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2018, 05:50:05 PM »
I don't think that anything that has been removed from the game will ever return so no worries there. Do we have any examples of something that has been removed from the game before and returned? Houses don't really count because they are mostly cycled around.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 538
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2018, 06:41:21 PM »
It's a small example, but my understanding is that expel was implemented, removed, and then re-implemented. It really is all I can think of, though.

Drovians, Nilazi, and Elkrosians returning in the form of subguilds wouldn't be exactly like something being removed and then reinstated, however, since there have never been subguilds of them. But I agree that it's never happening. It's one of the things that makes me saddest to admit, but I don't think staff will ever subguild these removed mages. I think they've even said they had zero plans to ever do it. So yeah, agreed, I don't think it matters what we think about this particular removal. It's a hard foot-down situation.

Akariel

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 565
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 06:43:35 PM »

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 538
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 06:50:40 PM »
 Yep, just like that. :'(

Eyeball

  • Posts: 807
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2018, 08:07:15 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

If all you want is crab mentality. I.e. people tearing down others' attempts to build or achieve (extremely difficult already).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 08:08:52 PM by Eyeball »

Vox

  • Posts: 416
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2018, 08:34:38 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

If all you want is crab mentality. I.e. people tearing down others' attempts to build or achieve (extremely difficult already).

Well, yes, yes I do. That's kind of the whole point of MURDER CORRUPTION BETRAYAL not everyone singing the 'everything is awesome' song all happily working together to 'build'/'achieve'.

I think the whole paradigm of building and achieving needs redefining in this game anyhow. So there's that. :P

Krath

  • Posts: 2410
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2018, 08:54:16 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

If all you want is crab mentality. I.e. people tearing down others' attempts to build or achieve (extremely difficult already).

Well, yes, yes I do. That's kind of the whole point of MURDER CORRUPTION BETRAYAL not everyone singing the 'everything is awesome' song all happily working together to 'build'/'achieve'.

I think the whole paradigm of building and achieving needs redefining in this game anyhow. So there's that. :P

This and his first post sum up my thoughts about the current state.
But it's cool, I can rap my skills, too
Cuz I rise above the rest like
'mon un whira [IC info removed]'

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 538
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2018, 09:10:18 PM »
Reading back, my comment did seem a little bitchy and presumptuous. I guess what I mean is that if staff want to subguild those elements, it'll be wonderful, but in the meantime, I don't think it really helps to beg (which I have done many times). They know we want (most of?) them back already, but they've said they don't have any plans. So lately I've just contented myself by crossing my fingers that those plans will change some day without getting my hopes up.

Eyeball

  • Posts: 807
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2018, 11:12:40 PM »
People are so afraid of their precious plans being foiled. Meanwhile, the greatest conflict and RP happens when secret plans are spoiled IC'ly and something even better happens involving far more people and far more plots.

If all you want is crab mentality. I.e. people tearing down others' attempts to build or achieve (extremely difficult already).

Well, yes, yes I do. That's kind of the whole point of MURDER CORRUPTION BETRAYAL not everyone singing the 'everything is awesome' song all happily working together to 'build'/'achieve'.

I think the whole paradigm of building and achieving needs redefining in this game anyhow. So there's that. :P

When was it decided that Armageddon Mud was Killer/Social only? It certainly didn't start out that way.

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11837
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2018, 11:15:56 PM »
Without the people who try to accomplish things, y'all wouldn't have anything to relentlessly destroy.
Will they tell your story in the end?
Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

Dar

  • Posts: 1266
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2018, 01:24:04 AM »
Stop asking to legalize the word Necker!

Yeah. I know nobody is asking about it. But I think it's a stupid rule and I would like to indirectly create a conversation about it.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 9685
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2018, 05:59:08 AM »
Bans necker but "gypsy" is common permitted IC and OOC parlance.

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11837
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2018, 11:45:46 AM »
Please make your own thread for that. If you really think it's necessary.
Will they tell your story in the end?
Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

tapas

  • Posts: 273
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2018, 08:29:23 PM »
I liked everything about Drovians except for that ONE spell that everybody else hated.

Personally I'd love to see a drov-touched that gives:

A handful of darkness based spells
That really sick vision spell
Master climb

Master Sandwich

  • Posts: 15
Re: Stop Asking for Drovians
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2018, 08:44:30 PM »
Is asking for Drovians a problem? Who's asking? Why should they stop? The original post seems more like a rant, and if that's indeed the case, never mind. If not, keep reading.

The abilities that made Drovians super spies could be made less problematic with more risks and less effective.

If all else, those abilities could be redesigned or just replaced with other abilities.

Drovians are still a part of the magickal landscape even if players can't play them. If they can be re-added while removing the problematic functionality, it fills in the existing gap and people will stop asking for Drovians.