Author Topic: New Class Helpfiles  (Read 434 times)

Brokkr

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New Class Helpfiles
« on: May 27, 2018, 02:40:07 PM »
HEAVY COMBAT GUILDS
Heavy combat guilds are talented in combat in general, and focus primarily on
melee combat. They have barely any mercantile skill and a small amount of survival
skill. Since they are the most competent in combat out-of-the-box, players who choose them
will likely lean toward combat and antagonist roles.

ENFORCER
Brutal and efficient, Enforcers often come from a criminal background and are possessed of a low cunning and a murderous efficiency in combat. Capable with whatever weapons fall into their hands, Enforcers lever every potential advantage in a fight, using a wide variety of underhand tactics to achieve their ends - be it by springing a hasty ambush or laying their foes low with a stunning strike. While enforcers find fast employ wherever their talents in killing find direct application - on either side of the law - they are also capable bodyguards and assassins for hire.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, bash, crossbow use, flee, guarding, kick, parry, rescue, threaten, shield use, dual wield, two handed, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, chopping weapons, bludgeoning weapons
Advanced: subdue, hide
Journeyman: forage, cooking

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, blowgun use, backstab, blind fighting, disarm, rescue, sap, throw
Advanced:  sneak, climb, sleight of hand

Abilities:
Can forage scraps of food in cities.
Stealth specialized for city environments.
Hunting specialized for city environments.

RAIDER
Raiders survive through violence - gouging a living from the wastes through superiority at arms. Confident astride a mount as they are creeping through the undergrowth, Raiders are talented at pursuing their quarry - humanoid or otherwise - across the worst that Zalanthas’ blighted landscape can throw at them. In melee or at a range, a Raider is a capable combatant and more than able to wrest a close victory through use of combat maneuvers.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, archery, bash, flee, kick, parry, rescue, sling use, threaten, shield use, dual wield, two handed, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, chopping weapons, bludgeoning weapons
Advanced: subdue, climb, listen_wild, ride, direction sense
Journeyman: forage, cooking

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, crossbow use, charge, disarm, guarding, throw
Advanced:  sneak, hide, scan

Abilities:
Stealth specialized for wilderness environments.
Hunting specialized for wilderness environments.
Can hitch two mounts at once.

FIGHTER
Fighters know violence above all else. The ability to fight - and fight well - defines their capabilities. Where others create or connive to survive the brutality of the world, Fighters fight, kill and overcome. A Fighter’s potential with any kind of weapon is rarely matched. They are masters at bashing, kicking or otherwise clawing victory from their foes. They are entirely at home on any conceivable battlefield, in any role at arms - but very little else. They are Fighters.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, bash, crossbow use, disarm, flee, guarding, hack, kick, parry, rescue, riposte, sling use, shield use, dual wield, two handed, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, chopping weapons, bludgeoning weapons
Advanced: subdue, listen
Journeyman: forage, cooking
Increased capacity for alcohol and pain

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, archery, blind fighting, threaten, throw
Advanced:  bandage, armor repair
Journeyman: watch
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 01:25:09 PM by Brokkr »

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2018, 02:41:19 PM »
LIGHT COMBAT GUILDS
Light combat guilds are competent in combat, though not as talented in it as their
heavy counterparts. They make up for it with greater knowledge in mercantile and
survival skills.

INFILTRATOR
To the Infiltrator, a city is a weapon: A collection of opportunities to be exploited and rendered to achieve combat superiority. Every alleyway is a potential ambush site - every rooftop a vantage point. The Infiltrator moves through their chosen environment with ease - capable of seeing all, hearing all and confounding the defenses of their prey. When it is time to strike, the Infiltrator attacks from the shadows with a broad arsenal of weapons - tainted blades, sapping bludgeons or the silent bite of a blowgun’s dart. Infiltrators find ready work in the criminal sphere, but are just as capable of turning their skills to the use of patrons on the ‘right’ side of the law. Others may operate as assassins, burglars or petty muggers, supporting themselves independently.


Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, backstab, crossbow use, throw, dual wield, two handed
Advanced: flee, parry, sap, shield use, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, chopping weapons, bludgeoning weapons, sneak, hide, climb, poisoning, sleight of hand, hunt, listen, search, watch, forage, value, cooking

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, blowgun use
Advanced:  bash, blindfighting, pick, peek, scan
Journeyman: subdue, pick making

Abilities:
Can forage scraps of food in cities.
Stealth specialized for city environments.
Hunting specialized for city environments.

SCOUT
Scouts are comfortable beyond the isolated dots of civilization, past the ancient walls of cities and outposts - among the dunes and shattered landscape of Zalanthas’ wilderness. Able to ply the precarious routes between settlements, Scouts are also capable of pushing into even more rugged terrain - on foot, undetected or astride mounts up to the task. While Scouts are well suited to working as guides, outriders or mercenaries for those with coin and need of their knowledge of the land, they are also able to feed themselves and eke out a living from gathering the jealously-guarded bounty of the wastes. In combat, Scouts are capable and adaptable, being skilled in the use of many weapons - ranged or otherwise.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, archery, sling use, throw, dual wield, two handed, skinning
Advanced: flee, parry, shield use, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, chopping weapons, bludgeoning weapons, climb, bandage, poisoning, ride, direction sense, hunt, listen_wild, scan, forage, fletchery, cooking

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, blowgun use, crossbow use, guarding, rescue
Advanced:  blindfighting, charge, kick, sneak, hide, bandagemaking

Abilities:
Can forage food in the wilderness.
Stealth specialized for wilderness environments.
Hunting specialized for wilderness environments.
May prepare a campsite in the wilderness.
Fair recovery from exertion.
Can hitch two mounts at once.
May eventually tame mounts.

SOLDIER
Soldiers live and die by their skill at arms - either because it is their trade, their obligation or their means of survival. Capable warriors, Soldiers possess a broad array of combat skills to match whatever the battlefields of Zalanthas throw at them. In the absence of a patron or master, Soldiers find easy work as independent mercenaries, being able to produce their own arms and maintain their armour. This self-sufficiency also makes Soldiers well-suited to smaller outfits or minor merchant ventures as quartermasters or lieutenants.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, crossbow use, guarding, rescue, sling use, dual wield, two handed
Advanced: bash, flee, kick, parry, shield use, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, chopping weapons, bludgeoning weapons, bandage, listen, forage, armor repair, bandagemaking, fletchery, cooking
Journeyman: subdue
Increased capacity for alcohol and pain

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, archery, hack, riposte
Advanced:  disarm, watch, axe making, club making, knife making, spear making, sword making
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 01:26:28 PM by Brokkr »

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2018, 02:42:33 PM »
MIXED GUILDS
Neither as competent in combat as the combat guilds, nor as competent in
mercantile things as the mercantile guilds, mixed guilds rely on a mixture of
talents and a great deal of strength in survival skills.

MISCREANT
A Miscreant is in their element at the rotten heart of Zalanthas’ cities and outposts: amidst the teeming masses of those who cling to the assumed safety of walls and laws. Capable of exploiting the built environment to a level without peer, a Miscreant works the hidden pathways and shadowy back-alleys unseen and unheard, scaling rooftops as easily as they slink through crowds. Opportunists and natural spies, a Miscreant’s senses are primed for collecting valuable information or wrestling a living from even the most dire circumstances. In combat the Miscreant can hold their own, favouring easy marks or ambushes where they can turn circumstances against their foes. While a Miscreant is easily capable of supporting themselves, their streetwise savvy also makes them excellent aides or problem solvers for those who prefer to keep their hands clean.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, sneak, hide, climb, pick, poisoning, sleight of hand, steal, hunt, listen, peek, scan, search, watch, forage
Advanced: crossbow use, flee, parry, throw, shield use, dual wield, two handed, piercing weapons, bludgeoning weapons, cooking

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel
Advanced:  backstab, blind fighting, blowgun use, sap, haggle, value, brew, pick making

Abilities:
Can forage scraps of food in cities.
Stealth specialized for city environments.
Hunting specialized for city environments.

STALKER
The blighted wastes of Zalanthas are cruel and unforgiving - the slightest mistake ends the lives of the rich and poor alike and the brutal attrition turns even the strongest to dust with time. Stalkers are capable of plunging into this harsh environment, surviving and even thriving through application of their skills. More than able to move unseen and undetected by those who’d do them harm, Hunters can traverse even the most broken terrain as they unerringly hunt their quarry. Their competent senses can cut a path through the harshest storm and discern the hidden bounty of the desert - or its lurking dangers with equal ease. While mostly suited to ambush tactics, a Stalker’s skill in combat isn’t negligible.  Capable of supporting themselves through hunting, Stalker also make excellent trackers and guides and, in a pinch, can keep less capable allies alive under Suk-Krath’s wrathful glare. 

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, sneak, hide, climb, bandage, poisoning, skinning, ride, direction sense, hunt, listen_wild, scan, watch, forage
Advanced: archery, crossbow use, flee, parry, throw, shield use, dual wield, two handed, piercing weapons, bludgeoning weapons, cooking

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel
Advanced:  blind fighting, blowgun use, charge, guarding, rescue, bandagemaking, brew, fletchery, floristry, leatherworking, tanning

Abilities:
Can forage food in the wilderness.
Stealth specialized for wilderness environments.
Hunting specialized for wilderness environments.
May prepare a campsite in the wilderness.
Good recovery from exertion.
Can hitch two mounts at once.
May eventually tame mounts.

LABORER
Within the cities and outposts that dot the Known’s surface, for the majority of those who huddle within their walls - the only constant is struggle and suffering. The Laborer faces this attrition and carves a life from it, clawing any and all opportunities they can. Laborers have a breadth of talents that permit them to succeed in a variety of situations. Laborers can quarry and dig, cut lumber and tan hides, earning their keep through craft. Often pressed into service or forced to defend themselves, Laborers can also take up what simple arms that might be available to a fair degree. While a Laborer’s lot is often to toil, often for others, those possessing more drive can support themselves.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, bandage, listen, scan, watch, forage
Advanced: crossbow use, flee, guarding, kick, parry, rescue, sling use, shield use, dual wield, two handed, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, chopping weapons, bludgeoning weapons, armor repair, bandagemaking, fletchery, knife making, lumberjacking, toolmaking, cooking
Increased capacity for alcohol and pain

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel
Advanced: bash, disarm, hack, axe making, basketweaving, clayworking, clothworking, stonecrafting, swordmaking, tanning
Apprentice: subdue
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 01:27:05 PM by Brokkr »

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2018, 02:43:47 PM »
LIGHT MERCANTILE GUILDS
These guilds lean more toward the craft and barter skills, but not quite as much
as the heavy mercantile guilds. They make up for that with a good mixture of
combat and survival skills, which they can achieve competency in.

PILFERER
The Pilferer gets by on their wits and their talented hands - natural entrepreneurs, they are capable of squeezing value out of whatever life in the Known’s cities and outposts throw at them. Whatever they scavenge off the streets can find some use, be fashioned to some profit - indeed, many Pilferers can survive just fine off of their petty crafting, easily asserting themselves as canny hagglers at market. But a Pilferer’s opportunism doesn’t end in lawful activity - they are just as comfortable as burglars or pickpockets. While not notable warriors, a Pilferer can still put up a fight if challenged, or when working as a team. Suited to a solitary life of crime, Pilferers can find work as spies or agents for more organized criminals.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, value, clothworking, dyeing, knife making, stonecrafting, toolmaking, cooking
Advanced: crossbow use, throw, dual wield, two handed, hide, climb, steal, hunt, listen, peek, scan, watch, forage, pick making
Journeyman: flee, shield use, piercing weapons, bludgeoning weapons

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, sleight of hand, haggle, bow making, brew, clay working, club making, fletchery, jewelrymaking
Advanced:  sneak, pick, search
Journeyman: sap

Abilities:
Can forage scraps of food in cities.
Stealth specialized for city environments.
Hunting specialized for city environments.

ADVENTURER
An Adventurer only looks to the next horizon - their next meal, or what lies beyond the next storm. They are adaptable and capable in most situations, moving from opportunity to opportunity as they present themselves in the wastes or at the edges of civilization. Capable of keeping themselves alive, Adventurers also are confident at eking out a profit from their ventures - working with the materials they find on their journeys. When their lot falls in with others they have a lot to offer either as leaders or followers - patching up their allies and their gear or guiding them through storms or across the silt sea. While lacking a flare for combat, Adventurers can fight as need be. Perfectly suited to life alone, many Adventurers are nomads or tribals, if not outcasts and wastelanders.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, pilot, skinning, armor repair, bandagemaking, fletchery, lumberjacking, spearmaking, toolmaking, cooking
Advanced: archery, dual wield, two handed, sneak, climb, ride, direction sense, hunt, listen_wild, scan, forage
Journeyman: flee, shield use, piercing weapons, bludgeoning weapons

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, brew, bow making, floristry, knife making, leatherworking, tanning, tentmaking
Advanced:  crossbow use, rescue, hide, bandage, search
Journeyman: parry

Abilities:
Can forage food in the wilderness.
Stealth specialized for wilderness environments.
Hunting specialized for wilderness environments.
May prepare a campsite in the wilderness.
Fair recovery from exertion.
Can hitch two mounts at once.
May eventually tame mounts.

CRAFTSPERSON
Craftspeople fill out a broad section of Zalanthan society - they are those with an eye for value and the creative skill to exploit it. They are canny merchants and are most at home in the markets and bazaars - at the point of sale where they can put their broad pool of skills to direct use in turning a profit. While not at home in battle or on the hunt, Craftspeople are rarely complete strangers to violence and know enough about protecting themselves to survive muggers or racketeers. If not working as part of their own enterprise, Craftspeople find ready employ with merchant houses or even as hands in mercenary endeavours, where their familiarity with combat might be useful.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, pilot, value, armor making, bandagemaking, clothworking, dyeing, fletchery, knifemaking, lumberjacking, stonecrafting, toolmaking, woodworking, cooking
Advanced: crossbow use, sling use, dual wield, two handed, bandage, listen, watch, forage,
Journeyman: flee, kick, shield use, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, chopping weapons, bludgeoning weapons

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, haggle, armor repair, axe making, basketweaving, clayworking, club making, jewelrymaking, leatherworking, spearmaking, swordmaking, tanning, tentmaking
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 12:11:30 AM by Brokkr »

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2018, 02:45:17 PM »
HEAVY MERCANTILE GUILDS
These guilds go all-in on barter and craft skills, sacrificing most talent in all but the most specific of combat and survival skills.

FENCE
Constrained only rarely by lip-service to the law, the Known’s criminal enterprises are ruthless in their exploitation of the various markets and bazaars that are permitted to exist by the oppressive forces in power. Fences are the interface between the corrupt worlds of mercantile and criminal excess. Exceptionally talented crafters, Fences can easily pass as more ‘legitimate’ businesspeople, covering their less-than-lawful activities beneath the facade of a typical merchant. Able to keep pace with their criminal contacts when it comes to passing unseen, a Fences’ senses are well honed in spotting marks. A Fence, if working alone, can support themselves through crafting and managing suspect deals - but their many talents make them good hires for Merchant Houses. Some Fences fully embrace the criminal life, acting as the face for gangs or criminal organizations. 

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, haggle, value, allundean, clayworking, clothworking, dyeing, fletchery, knifemaking, stonecrafting, tanning, toolmaking, cooking
Advanced:  sneak, hide, peek
Journeyman: shield use, dual wield, two handed, forage

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, armor making, armor repair, bandagemaking, brew, club making, featherworking, jewelrymaking, leatherworking, pick making, spearmaking, swordmaking
Advanced:  poisoning, sleight of hand, steal, listen
Journeyman: piercing weapons, crossbow use

Abilities:
Can forage scraps of food in cities.
Stealth specialized for city environments.

DUNE TRADER
A precarious web of commerce ties each outpost of civilisation together across the Known. The lifeblood of these arteries of life-giving trade, in times past, were the Dune Traders - nomads, tribals or those raised by the wilderness’ hard lessons - who blazed the precarious trails across the desert and scrub. From these intrepid merchants grew the Houses that dominate commerce across the Known today, their fortune built upon the Dune Trader’s dual ability at survival and trade. Today, Dune Traders still ply dusty bazaars and dustier trails, using their ability to find a route through storms or over impassable barriers to overcome the difficulties the wastelands throw at them. Either leading an expedition to gather raw resources, or as the head of a trading caravan, Dune Traders are both master craftspeople and savvy traders. While a lone Dune Trader might make good coin buying and selling, in groups they are capable outfitters and leaders, able to support merchant groups both at home and in the field.   Dune traders excel at going from place to place to trade in their wares, utilizing material rarity to turn the greatest profit. They have little skill in combat, their trips will likely be more fruitful if they take along a retinue for protection.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, pilot, haggle, value, bendune, axe making, basketweaving, bow making, dyeing, fletchery, lumberjacking, spearmaking, tentmaking, toolmaking, cooking
Advanced:  skinning, ride, direction sense, scan
Journeyman: shield use, dual wield, two handed, forage

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, armor making, armor repair, bandagemaking, brew, clothworking, club making, featherworking, floristry, instrumentmaking, jewelrymaking, knifemaking, leatherworking, stonecrafting, tanning, woodworking
Advanced: listen_wild
Journeyman: archery, crossbow use, piercing weapons

Abilities:
Can forage food in the wilderness.
Stealth specialized for wilderness environments.
Can hitch two mounts at once.

ARTISAN
Artisans are, first and foremost, makers - they possess a broad and masterful understanding of materials and how to best work them into many conceivable uses. Their artisanal talents are often discovered early and set many Artisans on the track for employ with one of the Known’s Merchant Houses. An Artisan is more than capable of picking up many trades. Artisans often attract the attention of patrons or employers who have much use for their skill. Those Artisans who strike out alone, however, can easily make a living through trade, given a little business savvy.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  contact, barrier, pilot, haggle, value, cavilish, armor making, bandagemaking, bowmaking, clayworking, clothworking, club making, dyeing, fletchery, knifemaking, lumberjacking, stonecrafting, toolmaking, cooking
Journeyman: shield use, dual wield, two handed, bludgeoning weapons, forage

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  expel, armor repair, axe making, basketweaving, featherworking, floristry, instrumentmaking, jewelrymaking, leatherworking, spearmaking, swordmaking, tanning, tentmaking, wagonmaking, woodworking
Advanced:  bandage
Journeyman: crossbow use, piercing weapons
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 01:28:58 PM by Brokkr »

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2018, 02:49:30 PM »
All the play testers have been operating in a vacuum, knowing their own class helpfile but not the other class helpfiles.  This was intentional on my part, as I wanted feedback on how a class played and felt without play testers worrying about what the balance seemed to be like with the other new classes.  We got a lot of great feedback!

I am making this information available to you so that we can now have those discussions around relative power and skill sets between the different classes.  I am also very interested in how you feel about your own class, now that you can see the gamut (is the grass greener?).  Feel free to use this thread for discussion around the information presented above.

AdamBlue

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 05:41:07 AM »
Very cool. At first, looking at the 'light combat' guilds being unable to master combat skills made me feel that they were an immediate loss compared to warrior. But after further examination, it was a stunning realization that most of the best warriors in the game probably only get to advanced in their weapon skills anyway, with only a bare few that manage to get to master. They trade the ability to be a one-man army like the Heavy Combat warriors for the ability to have more varied skills. And, the heavy combat guilds are even better than warrior in every capacity (excluding perhaps Fighter, which could totally use some tweaking)

I think the most interesting looking at the moment is the Adventurer class. It gives you all of the perks of merchantile while giving you full capacity to explore relatively safely in the wild, without being totally busted. I think that having shield-use AND parry on a wild character is very important to survival, so I think this was a great choice, while Pilferer is more suited to taking out foes by surprise or range, and Craftsmen are extremely good money-makers without being totally helpless. All of them look super fun.

The mixed guilds are absolutely bonkers, and totally awesome. If you want the capacity to play Armageddon without ever once interacting with another human being, Stalkers are the best. Absolutely self-retaining and maintaining. They can't make their own armor, but they can skin and work leathers as they sit around the campfire at night from their own hunts. Meanwhile, Miscreants are already in your apartment, eating your kalans from your bowl, creeping in the shadows with a cheeky little grin. And Laborers are doing whatever the hell they want, since they can do just about a bit of everything. Making their own nice clothes and even a nice looking sword. 'Laborers' are going to labor the shit out of whatever they want to do.
Heavy Merchants are going to be the people with all the money, however. Behind the scenes, they're going to run the entire game. They're going to have so much influence, money and power from their skills and influence that it's going to be berserk. Heavy Merchants are going to be the people that make the wagons, the people who build houses. The people that equip entire armies, and hire mercenaries. Be it the Fence who'll sit in the 'rinth, smoking spice as he orders that dastardly templar's throat slit in the middle of the Bazaar, or the Artisan, who has pulled some strings to have a lump of steel brought to him, so that he may make a bit of treasure worth more than all of the lives in Allanak. At the same time, the Dune Trader will be negotiating peace between two warring tribes while sleeping with handsome men from both tribes and receiving large sums of exotic treasures.


Heavy Combat will be the bricks that make up the front lines of an army. Fighters are the forefront forces. Raiders will be the outriders, and Enforcers will be the flankers.
Light Combat will be the second line. First, Scouts with their bows,  Then, Soldiers with their arrows. Infiltrators will be already within enemy lines, stabbing backs and poisoning canteens.
The mixed units will make up the main fighting force; They'll have cobbled together their own weapons and armor, slapdashed together, and the Laborers will take up their spears and shields and advance, using numbers to overwhelm. Stalkers have been there the whole time in the sands, waiting for the perfect moment to strike from the dunes with a whirling rush of screams and mass. Miscreants are scouring the battlefield, collecting lost treasures from friend and foe alike.
Adventurers have been the ones riding out and collecting materials needed for the siege weaponry, while the Pilferers have stolen the blueprints. Craftsmen are assembling it, using blood, sweat and tears.
Artisans are supplying and funding the whole war. Fences are mingling with the enemy, supplying them false information as they smoke and drink together, waying information back to the Dune Trader, who has been using the now guarded routes to mass import everything the army wants while making a nice, tidy profit.


JustAnotherGuy

  • Posts: 2043
Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 08:28:50 AM »
Very cool.

This is what I have to say. Adam says it all so well.  I'm excited for these to get in game.  We're likely going to get more feedback from the masses when it goes into "Open Beta", but that's the beauty of a community like this.
Or you might get me.
Quote
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Master Sandwich

  • Posts: 15
Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 12:46:18 PM »
It seems odd that Artisan has bandage but Dune Trader does not. It'd make sense for the Dune Trader (as an outdoor type) to be able to bandage, maybe more so than an Artisan.

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 02:03:00 PM »
But after further examination, it was a stunning realization that most of the best warriors in the game probably only get to advanced in their weapon skills anyway, with only a bare few that manage to get to master.

Hmmmmmm.

Brokkr readies a stunning realization, taking aim.

Brokkr fires a stunning realization at AdamBlue.

You may, or may not, remember this post:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53102.0.html

A number of folks probably saw their slashing, piercing, chopping or bludgeoning weapon skills  "go down" in regards to the term describing them.  As the post states, your skill % was still the same, but its place relative to the maximum for that skill across all guilds was different.

Uh huh.

Heavy combat classes have that maximum. Light combat, you may note, only go up to advanced in these skills.  Light combat are just as good as warriors in these skills.

Uh huh.

A stunning realization hits someone as they realize warriors haven't been able to get to master in those skills at all, since the announcement.

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 02:07:59 PM »
Quote
(excluding perhaps Fighter, which could totally use some tweaking)

Fighters are kind of like warriors.  But all Heavy Combat are sort of like warriors.

The idea is in a straight up fight the Fighter will have the skills to have an edge on the other kinds of almost warriors.  Those skills are hack and riposte, which are meant to mitigate the defensive capabilities of their opponents, namely shield use and parry.  If those other almost warriors go outside of a straight up fight (backstab or charging/mounted combat for instance) then that is something else.

So, interested in hearing what kind of tweaking you were thinking about, given that.

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2018, 02:19:42 PM »
It seems odd that Artisan has bandage but Dune Trader does not. It'd make sense for the Dune Trader (as an outdoor type) to be able to bandage, maybe more so than an Artisan.

Fighter
Soldier           Scout
Laborer          Stalker
Craftsperson   Adventurer
Artisan

So, that is how it works currently.  Because bandage was literally one of the only survival skills I could give city competency as a primary survival skill vs criminal or wilderness.  Cause nearly all survival skills are suited to the wilderness or doing skulldugery type things.

rinthrat

  • Posts: 12
Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2018, 03:27:57 PM »
Quote
I am making this information available to you so that we can now have those discussions around relative power and skill sets between the different classes.  I am also very interested in how you feel about your own class, now that you can see the gamut (is the grass greener?).  Feel free to use this thread for discussion around the information presented above.

I'm afraid the grass is greener  :(

I've just done the comparison between the infiltrator and the pilferer. Outside of their area of expertise (combat and mercantile), they have pretty similar skillsets - Infiltrators need to branch a few more perception skills and get advanced poison, pilferers get master steal. When it comes to their specializations, though - Infiltrators get the approximate power of a class warrior and the associated skills, pilferers get - Master haggle and eight crafting skills, which add up to a pretty limited number of craftable items (maybe there's a bunch of recipes I'm missing, but chances to just stumble across those by trial and error are slim at best).

They're the only mercantile class that doesn't get toolmaking, and a bunch of good quality tools seem to have been removed from shops. This limits the ability to use these crafting skills even further, because some of the available recipes? Need tools that seem only available from PCs, now. 

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2018, 04:00:37 PM »
I did consider removing pick making from infiltrator and miscreant, making pilferer the only one with both pick and pick making.  At the end of the day, decided instead there was quite a bit of power in having pick making first.  Pretty sure there was even someone recently complaining on the GDB about something like that.

I'm not expecting pilferer to be exceptionally popular, but if it is able to fill concepts or roles that other classes can't quite, will be happy.

Will have to ponder toolmaking.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 04:02:20 PM by Brokkr »

Zwen

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2018, 07:08:52 PM »
Thanks for making this available. I'll have to look more closely at it before making comparisons. But in any case I would pick my heavy mercantile guild over traditional guild_merchant every time, any I think I can safely say that is true for me for any of the heavy mercantile guilds.

By the way is foraging for food in cities a new thing for the game in general? I feel like I'm seeing that for the first time, but it's very possible I missed something.

AdamBlue

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2018, 07:16:37 PM »
Well, here's the cool thing.
All of these classes still have access to subguilds. So the combinations are basically endless.
One that comes to mind is a Dune Trader / Protector. Maxed out defensive skills with parry and shield-use, and journeyman piercing weapons.

Even someone who has a character THAT invested in being a 'makey-crafter' type now has the capacity to literally be what is basically a Byn Trooper, complete with crossbow and archery use, but also the ability to find food like a ranger, scan for hidden beasties, but also literally make every single thing that they could ever need in any situation ever, period. Able to be an insane rider, tame animals... Literally Mac-fucking-Gyver of Armageddon.

The only thing I think subguilds need is a non-karma version of protector. Parry is a really, REALLY good skill, even at journeyman. Otherwise, I think any class that gets 'two-handed' should have the ability to parry. The Adventurer class does it very well, with having it cap at journeyman considering they're the most 'combat' oriented of the light merchant classes.

We already have the 'gladiator' subguild which basically gives you a minor version of one of the 'berserker' classes, perhaps we should have a 'defender' subguild that gives you a minor version of protector, for people who know that they want to play a merchant that doesn't die the second a Mek walks into the room

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2018, 12:48:42 AM »
Discussion seems to have trailed off on this.  So, different question.  What skills do you think need to be added to different classes?

I know some of you have suggested things in the past in the request tool, but that was before you could see all the classes.  So, now that you can see everything, is there anything seems seems to be missing?  Also, at this point I have hundreds of requests related to the new classes, so to ensure I don't miss anything, and to ensure if you still feel the same way about something you have already voiced it gets re-considered, please repeat below so everyone can see it (and I don't have to go through all those requests to compile a list of concerns you might feel different about now).

Few posts ago we have toolmaking for pilferer.  I can see that, the other light crafting guilds got it.

My own in reviewing stuff again is bow making for fence.  I was thinking of bows when I didn't give it to them originally, but it also makes blowguns, which seems to make sense for a person making tools for the criminally minded (the tailors in Kingsman? Q?).

I know a lot of you have also suggested certain skill levels when suggesting skills, or different skill levels for existing skills.  Lets go back to this:



Within each competency, the skill level for any particular skill is the same.  So for example, within the mixed competency all the classes get scan.  The scan max scan level (and the starting scan level) for each class in the mixed competency is exactly the same.  And it is the same for every other skill that any two or three classes in a competency share.  It does not matter if the class starts with the skill or branches the same skill.

Second, as a skill moves away from the competency that is best at it (heavy combat for combat/weapon skills, heavy merchantile for crafting/barting type skills, mixed for survival skills) the maximum goes down (and generally the starting skill level to a certain base level).  So lets take piercing weapons, which is a skill that every class can obtain.  Heavy combat has the highest maximum skill level, at master, and have a higher starting skill level than any other competency classes have.  Light combat has the next highest maximum skill level at advanced, which is less than heavy combat have, and have the same starting skill level as every other class that obtains the skill excluding heavy combat obviously.  Mixed has the next highest maximum skill level at advanced, which is less than light combat.  Light merchantile has the next highest maximum skill level at journeyman, which is less than mixed.  Heavy merchantile has the lowest maximum skill level at journeyman, which is less than light merchantile.

I point this out because it may not be evident that light combat advanced is better than mixed advanced.  Each descriptive word has a range of values that depends on the maximum skill level possible for that skill across all guilds, classes and subguilds that get that skill (so even beyond the 15 classes, which is why subdue for heavy combat only goes to advanced, just like it only goes to advanced for warriors).  The classes were constructed with the underlying numeric values, which impact the actual performance, rather than the descriptive words, which are only guideposts.

For survival skills like bandage, mixed has the highest maximum and starting skill level.  Light combat and and light merchantile have the next highest maximum and starting skill levels (which are the same between the two competencies).  Heavy combat and heavy merchantile have the lowest maximum and starting skill levels (which are the same between the two competencies).

Feel free to make suggestions regarding skill levels, but please keep this dynamic in mind.

JustAnotherGuy

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2018, 03:18:45 AM »
At this point you should just post the actual numbers to compare so people understand that there is a Low end and High end to any skill range (ie Journeyman low skill range to Journeyman high skill range, before getting to advanced.)

I think my only skill addition at the moment is stoneworking with Adventurer, but that is mainly due to the amount of stone that the Guild comes across when working on crafts.

I did have a question on guilds that get parry branched.  Prior to it would come from Dual Wield in most cases, but if you worked on Two-Handed, you could put in a request to get it manually branched by staff.  Have we gotten around that yet in some way?  It was a concern of mine with Adventurer, and some other guilds that I see branch Parry.
Or you might get me.
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Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2018, 09:36:40 AM »
Adventurer is the only guild that branches parry, and it doesn’t branch from dual wield.  Or two-handed.  So no longer necessary.

Zwen

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2018, 10:52:57 AM »
I was surprised to see Artisan doesn't have listen, but when I look at which classes get it, it makes more sense.

Same with my initial disappointment of Fence not getting scan. Seeing all of the class helpfiles helps to understand the rationale a little better.

JustAnotherGuy

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2018, 01:16:41 PM »
Adventurer is the only guild that branches parry, and it doesn’t branch from dual wield.  Or two-handed.  So no longer necessary.

Woot!
Or you might get me.
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Inky

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2018, 02:01:37 PM »
My burning question.

What is the incentive for a player to use piercing or bludgeoning weapons if they are a fighter? Hack and Riposte are keyed to axes and swords. And they don't get backstab or sap.

JustAnotherGuy

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2018, 02:16:34 PM »
My burning question.

What is the incentive for a player to use piercing or bludgeoning weapons if they are a fighter? Hack and Riposte are keyed to axes and swords. And they don't get backstab or sap.

Each weapon type does have an effectiveness, but they won't really go into mechanical details.  I will tell you that a bludgeoning weapon to the head can be rather devastating.  Think about it, there is more to weapons than just the name of their type.
Or you might get me.
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Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2018, 02:42:00 PM »
One could ask the same of enforcer with backstab and sap.

This is a RP mud.  The hope is that players make choices based on RP, not on some sort of min/max mentality.  In that respect, there are a number of things that could cause them to make said decision.

Inky

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2018, 05:20:58 PM »
Sure.

I'm just wondering how feasible it would be to code the various special weapon skills into something more universal.

Like an ambush skill that acts like sap when used with a mace but acts like a backstab when used with stabbing weapon and other weapon types get a lesser bonus.

Or the hack skill could be used with every weapon type but axes get an advantage.


Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2018, 05:29:41 PM »
I imagine it would be possible with the code, but it is much easier to keep the code very simple and specific, where we can.  Then it comes down to game design, and that we haven't chosen to go that direction.

rinthrat

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2018, 02:06:00 PM »
Before I suggest more skills to be added to the Pilferer - what's the reasoning behind them getting so few crafting skills and so few skills at Master, even compared to the other light mercantile classes?

To elaborate: Pilferer gets 13 Master skills (I'm counting the psionic skills, even if everyone gets them) and 8 crafting skills (7 of them at Master, 1 at Advanced).
Adventurer (light mercantile): 19 Master level skills, 14 of them crafting skills.
Craftsperson (light mercantile): 28 Master level skills, 22 of them crafting skills

Miscreant (criminal mixed): 17 Master skills
Fence (criminal heavy mercantile): 26 Master skills
I didn't count the crafting skills for the last two since they're not in the same row.

I know not all skills are created equal, but the difference is pretty striking.

Semi-related - is there a reason Adventurer doesn't get haggle? Without the option to custom craft, I feel like the mercantile guilds should at least get the core merchant skills.

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2018, 03:26:52 PM »
I never looked at it that way.  Its more about how skills could synergize into a role.  With steal/pick/pick making/climb, the pilferer is like half-thief, and with the crafting, half merchant.  I wouldn't be opposed to adding a couple of more crafting skills to pilferer, if they make sense.  Ideally, they would make sense with their other skills or capabilities as a thief.

As for haggle, it contributes a lot to the economy being sort of out of whack and hard to balance, so I tried to be judicious in terms of which classes got it.

JustAnotherGuy

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2018, 03:59:08 PM »
Haggle is also very powerful once raised.  You also have to take the Adventurer as the loner outdoorsy classes that may really not be the most trade based, like the Dune Trade.  I play Adventurer and I took a subguild that has Haggle, it's a rather powerful addition... especially when you can make high coin amount items to sell to NPCs.
Or you might get me.
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rinthrat

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2018, 04:39:46 PM »
Haggle is also very powerful once raised.  You also have to take the Adventurer as the loner outdoorsy classes that may really not be the most trade based, like the Dune Trade.  I play Adventurer and I took a subguild that has Haggle, it's a rather powerful addition... especially when you can make high coin amount items to sell to NPCs.
I'm aware - haggle is also the only way I've been able to turn a profit with at least one of the crafting skills I get on the Pilferer if I'm not selling to PCs.

I never looked at it that way.  Its more about how skills could synergize into a role.  With steal/pick/pick making/climb, the pilferer is like half-thief, and with the crafting, half merchant.  I wouldn't be opposed to adding a couple of more crafting skills to pilferer, if they make sense.  Ideally, they would make sense with their other skills or capabilities as a thief.

As for haggle, it contributes a lot to the economy being sort of out of whack and hard to balance, so I tried to be judicious in terms of which classes got it.

I've already mentioned toolmaking so the things they can craft don't get narrowed down further by unavailable tools. The other one I had in mind was fletchery - mostly so your criminal organization doesn't have to order blowdarts from Salarr before they can use their shiny blowgun skill in an assassination. They would still need to get a blowgun somewhere if they don't have anyone with bowmaking available, but these aren't consumables and don't need to be re-supplied all the time. It's feasible to steal or find a blowgun (or any missile, really) somewhere and to keep using that forever. But you need a pretty steady supply of blowdarts/missiles.  Of course, it would also synergize with crossbow use.

The weird thing about the Pilferer is that they are only really good at crafting skills (and steal, but not peek or sleight of hand, or stealth skills, so they're still not great pickpockets), but the vast majority of the skills they get aren't crafting skills, and two of the crafting skills are a bit meh (club making and clayworking, although I might be wrong on clayworking). I feel if they were truly half thief, half merchant, things would be more balanced. Skill levels seem unshakeable at this point, so the only solution I see is strengthening their merchant side, and turning them into the shadiest merchant ever.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 04:53:14 PM by rinthrat »

Zwen

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2018, 09:29:23 AM »
This is a fairly minor issue, but I thought I'd mention it since now we can all see all the help files.

It looks like three classes get steal: miscreant, pilferer, and fence. Miscreant gets it as a starting skill, and the other two branch it. My only quibble with this is that, particularly for the fence but to a lesser extent to pilferer, the character may already have a decent amount of coin from crafting before they learn how to steal. In other words, they might have lost the incentive to steal by the time they learn how to do it.

Brokkr

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2018, 01:02:33 PM »
I think it probably depends on how they are playing the character?  If they are doing sneak, skullduggery sort of things, it makes sense they would get more of those things.  If they are concentrating on making money through crafting, then yeah they probably will make money through crafting.

I've seen some brilliant uses of steal for things other than gaining money, though.

rinthrat

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Re: New Class Helpfiles
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2018, 01:31:19 PM »
This is a fairly minor issue, but I thought I'd mention it since now we can all see all the help files.

It looks like three classes get steal: miscreant, pilferer, and fence. Miscreant gets it as a starting skill, and the other two branch it. My only quibble with this is that, particularly for the fence but to a lesser extent to pilferer, the character may already have a decent amount of coin from crafting before they learn how to steal. In other words, they might have lost the incentive to steal by the time they learn how to do it.

This is a fairly minor issue, but I thought I'd mention it since now we can all see all the help files.

It looks like three classes get steal: miscreant, pilferer, and fence. Miscreant gets it as a starting skill, and the other two branch it. My only quibble with this is that, particularly for the fence but to a lesser extent to pilferer, the character may already have a decent amount of coin from crafting before they learn how to steal. In other words, they might have lost the incentive to steal by the time they learn how to do it.

I agree and actually mentioned something similar in one of those feedback requests. The Pilferer starts out heavily on the crafting side, without having that many crafting skills. But since branching is fairly quick, it wasn't a major issue.