Author Topic: "There's a pit in the north" or "Aaaaaaaaaaarrgh I didn't see it comiiiiiing"  (Read 2304 times)

theebie

  • Posts: 357
How about a new "nosave" command called "nosave dont-willingly-walk-into-that-chasm".

If turned on, it would prevent people from entering rooms where you could fall down and warn them with something like "This area would require climbing".

I think most of my characters are clever enough to -not- fall into gigantic, openly visible holes in the ground. Especially seasoned desert hunters.

BrainySmurf

  • Posts: 44
I require everyone in my group to nosave climbfollow as a gesture of faith.

On a serious note, this is a much needed QOL change that people have been asking for, for a long time. I want it, but playing devil's advocate, there are some examples (ie, moving around at night with only the moons for light) where it would be reasonable to not see a fall. But given that A) most scenarios people would be aware and willfully approaching falls rather than blindly traipsing into them and B) many fall rooms have ambiguous room names that don't make it clear they're deathtrap, I'm in favor.

Riev

  • Posts: 5187
For holes/pits, this does not exist.

For more obvious falls, like falling off the Shield Wall, you actually have to type n ! or something like that don't you?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

nauta

  • Posts: 2335
Just as an FYI, at some point in late 2015, staff implemented a few qualty-of-life additions to address the above issue with a select number of fissures/cliffs (Shield Wall being the obvious one):

(1) There are room echoes about shifting sands, etc. that alert the user.

(2) You actually can't go off (most) of the Shield Wall with the usual direction commands (north, south, etc.).  You get a message and then have to type: "north now" or something of the sort (as Riev said).

(3) In general, cleaned up the room descriptions for cliffs to make it obvious that there is, indeed, a cliff up ahead.  (Some descriptions were rather vague.)

(4) Implemented nosave climbfollow to prevent minions from following leaders off a cliff.

To be sure there are /other/ pits out there that don't have such features.

Also, for what it is worth, I quite like (1) and (3) and (4), but I don't really like (2): there's a kind of 'game' aspect to pits where knowing the lay of the land and being careful with your input is a distinctive advantage in a chase scene, for example.  (Cf. the tablelands, where invaders are at a disadvantage because the natives know, or eventually learn, the lay of the land.)

So, to OP, I'd say if there is a cliff/pit you have in mind, send in a request to staff to see if they'd implement (1-4) on it.  Perhaps it was overlooked in the later 2015 changes.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Veselka

  • Posts: 743
I dunno. Accidents happen. I donít want the game to turn into a bowling alley lane with bumpers.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 569
I've made my peace with fall rooms. The trick is to treat it not like your character just idiotically stepped into oblivion, while whistling. You can play it like they stepped too close to the edge and the precarious ground crumbled away beneath their feet.

Riev

  • Posts: 5187
I've been playing this game for like 15 years. On a semi-recent character, I was in the tablelands and dropped into a hole and lost my mount. Then got attacked by things. Almost didn't make it out.

Should I have known better? Yes. Was there a description in the room that said "OH SHIT RIEV LOOK OUT"? Yes. I still fell in.

I'm only okay with (2) because ICly, your character wouldn't just ride off the shield wall. THAT is noticeable, and you don't always know if "edge of the cliff" is a climb room, or a safe room, due to inconsistencies.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Krath

  • Posts: 2472
I dunno. Accidents happen. I donít want the game to turn into a bowling alley lane with bumpers.

This is Armageddon. Please read above.
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

Eyeball

  • Posts: 864
How about a new "nosave" command called "nosave dont-willingly-walk-into-that-chasm".

If this is done, I suggest it be set up to not work at night.

cnemus

  • Posts: 146
If I doof and forget where I am I want the game to smack me with fall damage. I think the no follow and descriptions offer enough help as is. I do not want to see a new nosave to help me be less dumb. When you aren't taking your time or watching where you are going, accidents happen. I think there should be consequences. We are not living in a paved paradise, we are on the cusp of hell.
Quote from: Kalaziel
Just remember, the code is there to support your RP not the other way around  :)

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 409
If I doof and forget where I am I want the game to smack me with fall damage. I think the no follow and descriptions offer enough help as is. I do not want to see a new nosave to help me be less dumb. When you aren't taking your time or watching where you are going, accidents happen. I think there should be consequences. We are not living in a paved paradise, we are on the cusp of hell.

+1

When I am moseying along and hit a direction too many times, because I am not paying attention, I look around like, "What the hell? Where am I?" In those moments, I know I would have deserved whatever happened and get a moment of heart-pounding relief that I didn't walk off a cliff or into a 'friendly' wildlife welcoming committee.

My thought is that the current changes made were good, but this discussion is good also for idea exchange. To add to it, I suggest that we shouldn't feel free to FIGHT close to cliff edges. Waking or riding close to them, fine. But if someone is having a pitched, prolonged battle right near one, some factors could possibly come into play. Like them slipping. Sometimes fighting in certain places can't be helped, but it should be an understood risk.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 12:38:20 PM by WithSprinkles »

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5234
I dunno. Accidents happen. I donít want the game to turn into a bowling alley lane with bumpers.
If I doof and forget where I am I want the game to smack me with fall damage. I think the no follow and descriptions offer enough help as is. I do not want to see a new nosave to help me be less dumb. When you aren't taking your time or watching where you are going, accidents happen. I think there should be consequences. We are not living in a paved paradise, we are on the cusp of hell.
+1
This is Armageddon. Please read above.
... and be like me... only make city folk.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

nauta

  • Posts: 2335
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My thought is that the current changes made were good, but this discussion is good also for idea exchange. To add to it, I suggest that we shouldn't feel free to FIGHT close to cliff edges. Waking or riding close to them, fine. But if someone is having a pitched, prolonged battle right near one, some factors could possibly come into play. Like them slipping. Sometimes fighting in certain places can't be helped, but it should be an understood risk.

Even with the bumpercar cliffs/pits (i.e., the Shield Wall), you can still fall off: a failed flee attempt, for instance, which makes it risky to fight next to them, to be sure; also I do believe a failed direction sense check (i.e., in a storm) does, (or should if it doesn't!), send you over the edge.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 569
To add to it, I suggest that we shouldn't feel free to FIGHT close to cliff edges. Waking or riding close to them, fine. But if someone is having a pitched, prolonged battle right near one, some factors could possibly come into play. Like them slipping. Sometimes fighting in certain places can't be helped, but it should be an understood risk.

Yeah, I think the way it works is OK right now. If you're controlling the battle and you're confident, I don't see why it wouldn't be easy for you to steer the fight away from the cliff edge. But once you're NOT comfortable, a failed flee check could easily take you off the edge. So it's already a dangerous place to scuffle, especially with critters that can bash you in a direction.

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 409
Hmm. Alright! I concede those points and retract. Didn't take all those factors into account.

tapas

  • Posts: 340
I don't think these falls add anything other than hours of needless frustration. There should be better ways to communicate that the desert is dangerous and hostile without trapping a player in a pit until someone with a rope swings by.

BrainySmurf

  • Posts: 44
I don't think these falls add anything other than hours of needless frustration. There should be better ways to communicate that the desert is dangerous and hostile without trapping a player in a pit until someone with a rope swings by.

Echoed. I recognize people are making valid points about the gameworld being dangerous but ultimately dying to an accidental input that launches you into a four room fall or stumbling into an inescapable hole with a dujat or four gith in it is not fun, immersive, or satisfying in any way, shape or form. There are ways to make the world dangerous that don't feel like Dragon's Lair style one hit kill gotchas. And again, even if we're saying the edge of the chasm gives way, I'd argue approaching even the edge of a precipice is a conscious act and should require an additional input.

Also I've fallen off the shieldwall as recently as January so there's still plenty of places to do it.

It's the fucking desert. In a low-tech wasteland. Watch where you walk.

If there are rooms where even watching where you walk doesn't do shit, that's different. But if it can be solved by looking at room descs or at exits or looking in directions, then it's your own damn fault, sorry to say.

This isn't Viva Pinata. This is a goddamn apocalyptic world and you should be careful travelling randomly. It takes 3 seconds to travel a non-road room even on the back of a fast mount. Alias 'x' to 'stop' and just spam it when you're wary - you get PLENTY of time to correct your fuckups.
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It's always lizard time.

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The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

tapas

  • Posts: 340
It's the fucking desert. In a low-tech wasteland. Watch where you walk.

If there are rooms where even watching where you walk doesn't do shit, that's different. But if it can be solved by looking at room descs or at exits or looking in directions, then it's your own damn fault, sorry to say.

This isn't Viva Pinata. This is a goddamn apocalyptic world and you should be careful travelling randomly. It takes 3 seconds to travel a non-road room even on the back of a fast mount. Alias 'x' to 'stop' and just spam it when you're wary - you get PLENTY of time to correct your fuckups.

No we don't need dark souls fucking difficulty in our text adventures. In a game like this, having such binary death or fall rooms is frankly just poor design.

Veselka

  • Posts: 743
Disagree. I would say itís exactly as intended. This game is easy enough. No baby bumpers please.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

How is
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"You are now in 'Hey Dipshit There's A Cliff Up Ahead [N D S] This room is right next to a fucking cliff wow look at that cliff go.'"
'Dark Souls difficulty'?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 06:25:55 PM by MatisseOrOtherwise »
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It's always lizard time.

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The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 409
I promise I'm not being rude, but this last post made me giggle for a whole minute because of something I experienced in game. Sometimes a drop will just not be.. clear in the room description and the person you are following will disappear (thank gawd for nosave follow). One time that happened and the rest of our group just stared for a moment and all I could think as a PLAYER was:

"Oh yeaaaah. I'm traveling with the Byn, aren't I? Daaaamn... They just FIND random holes to fall into, huh?"

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1675
Honestly the only time I have ever had trouble figuring out whether or not a spot is a climb room or not and it actually mattered, was when it was specifically meant to be difficult to work out I.E a trap of some description.

The Warshaper

  • Posts: 159
One of my most favorite moments was falling off the Shield Wall... and surviving.  :-X #forevernoob

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 877
I agree with the others who think you should just be more careful. I believe that the system is fine the way it is now.

As far as the cute little Dark Souls comment... this is Armageddon. In case you forget, this is supposed to be hard mode. People lately seem to be trying to make it more fluffy - that isn't what Armageddon is.

It tortures you, it makes you want to cry, it makes you experience feelings of loss in real life over a game. People are mean here, there are no safe places. Despite all that, it makes you create a new character come back again and do it all over.

I don't think more changes are needed to make traveling the desert easier. If you just look around you and pay attention to room descriptions you're not going to fall into a hole. I played almost exclusively in the desert for years and I had my mishaps and I believe they all would have been preventable if I would have just paid more attention.

This isn't Mario Brothers. Let's put on our big boy pants.
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

"Don't do this. I can't believe I have to write this post."
-Rathustra

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 409
Characters can and usually are opportunistic and mean here. Even if we disagree, hopefully players can explain things and collaborate together. Or people who might not have been a perfect fit won't ever learn to be and won't come back to make new characters.

I happen to agree with the travel aspect of this post though. Most scenarios that I have seen (save the one I pointed out a few posts up and others have stated that other holes are just "wtf where?!"), you have an opportunity to see drops, so paying attention is your own responsibility. Read and slow down or make triggers and highlights to help you in a pinch.

If you find a drop not properly described, maybe TYPO it so that staff can add either echoes or the appropriate descriptions? Maybe it was overlooked. I don't think they are specifically out to get us (unless it is an RPT and they are specifically out to get us).

Otherwise, like I said, I have mudlet highlight words like 'cliff' to begin with. I also alias the word STOP, but lots of us do. Just take your time and think of small things that help YOU out there and you'll be fine. Don't overdo it. Reactive triggers are a no-no, but highlights and shortcuts for words that you KNOW that you typo in a panic are useful as hell.

Riev

  • Posts: 5187
As someone who has lost 50day characters to "put one extra north into the command buffer and didn't realize it", I can say it suuuuuucks.

The only thing that sucks more is if the world doesn't react to it somehow. Hopefully, with a wagon (that costs one MILLION coins at minimum despite a 5d merchant being able to build component pieces), the loss of one is a TERRIBLE hit to whichever group lost it, and it turns into a lot of really cool threads to pull.

I know when I die, I like to think its more than some fake "Oh we'll miss that guy" and more "Who can we blame his death on?"
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

KittenLicks

  • Posts: 48
This isn't Mario Brothers. Let's put on our big boy pants.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but I just want to say that avoiding falling into holes you can see is a big part of the Mario franchise, so in a way, it kind of is Mario Brothers. ;)

That is all, please resume discussion.
Quote from: Armageddon
You can't wear the spider.

Grapes

  • Posts: 416
This isn't Mario Brothers. Let's put on our big boy pants.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but I just want to say that avoiding falling into holes you can see is a big part of the Mario franchise, so in a way, it kind of is Mario Brothers. ;)

That is all, please resume discussion.

Haha, yeah, people forget there's a term "Nintendo hard" meant to describe games that are just absurdly difficult, hint: It's not talking about much post-N64... then again people also sometimes forget about the older arcade games, where the closest thing to an ending you get is the game glitching out as it runs out of memory, where everyone loses and you're out money and time, all because of some soul-devouring quarter-eating monstrosity.

While I agree that this shouldn't turn into beginner's night at the bowling alley, this is, as I have been lead to believe, a role-playing game, and as such, obstacles to immersion should be removed where reasonable. I'd assume if Pac-Man came wakka-wakkaing down a rinth alleyway and bit your head off, you'd, kind of want your quarter back, but this is Arm, a magicker probably did it. Still the point is it wouldn't really fit the setting. If the circumstances regarding a specific time and place are such that a swan dive off a cliff makes absolutely no sense given the character(s) involved, and there is a solution, then it's a solvable barrier to immersion, and likely should be as much a priority as denying magical cat-girl applications.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

There should be cliffs. There should be pitfalls. Ways to wake you up and make you realise you're in fucking Zalanthas.

If they're poorly marked or not clear, that's different. But this isn't a stroll in the park. The marked and clear cliffs/pitfalls are there to remind you where you are and stop you from spamwalking directions.
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It's always lizard time.

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The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 409
I don't really have a horse in this race, but I just want to say that avoiding falling into holes you can see is a big part of the Mario franchise, so in a way, it kind of is Mario Brothers. ;)

That is all, please resume discussion.

This and the Pac Man comment made me kind of consider changing my death *ding* to the Mario Brothers death ding. Not for creature deaths, but for PC deaths (mine and others) so that when emotions are high, it could hopefully jerk me out of the moment a bit and remind me of the 'game' aspect of things.

Me: Oh noes! Tense moment and we're surrounded! The stakes are high! We will all fite together!
*Super Mario death sound!*
Me: Pppft! Well that didn't go so.. well.

I thought of characters falling down holes and Mario and drew the SAME conclusion.

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 877
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...this is, as I have been lead to believe, a role-playing game, and as such, obstacles to immersion should be removed where reasonable

In my opinion reading the room descriptions and being aware of the environment are a part of the immersion, not an obstacle to it. I can not think of a place where you can fall in that there isn't some sort of description that lets you know what you are getting into. Usually that is in the room description itself.
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

"Don't do this. I can't believe I have to write this post."
-Rathustra

Grapes

  • Posts: 416
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...this is, as I have been lead to believe, a role-playing game, and as such, obstacles to immersion should be removed where reasonable

In my opinion reading the room descriptions and being aware of the environment are a part of the immersion, not an obstacle to it. I can not think of a place where you can fall in that there isn't some sort of description that lets you know what you are getting into. Usually that is in the room description itself.

True, still, ever been fully aware of the presence of a massive hole and slipped and missed a key when trying to nervously look a direction? Although that specific scenario can partially be attributed to "Well, honestly you WERE getting a little close to the edge of doom anyway, who's to say a land-slide didn't take place from weathering?", and can partially be the nature of certain skills (depending on situation)... easily remedied by planning ahead and aliasing certain keys for your nervous lookie-loo rubbernecking tendencies.

A big, huge deal imo is the nosave climb follow flag (well, that and no longer accidently fleeing "up" for the auto crit-fail), imo that's enough for me, unless anyone else has any better ideas that don't involve slapping training wheels on things, because I sure don't. It's more a case of, "well, then THAT happened" when you do it to yourself, you can't emote it out (since you're dead), but you can reason how it could have happened.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 877
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unless anyone else has any better ideas that don't involve slapping training wheels on things

Leaving it how it is and just dealing with it comes to mind.  ;D
"People survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others."
-Ginka

"Don't do this. I can't believe I have to write this post."
-Rathustra

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11967
I'm still waiting for more watering holes to be actually dangerous because predators lying in wait, and for there to be poisonous plants and biting flies that cause sickness and all sorts of ways to make the wilderness actually miserable even if you don't get into combat. Unless you are prepared with antidotes and preventatives and sharp senses.

I'm fine with pitfalls. They're a little goofy unless you imagine it right, but they add real danger.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1222
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Samos the salter never goes to jail! Hahaha!

Asanadas

  • Posts: 412
https://www.lua.org/pil/contents.html

Here's where you start. Build a plug-in that checks a database for known descriptions indicating a fall exit which prevents movement in that direction.

You can start counting the hours from now until you're done. It will take you less time from right now to scripting an implantation in Lua, than it will to convince this community (nevermind the administration) to implement your suggestion. That time window is a tangible constant, and all constants are less than infinity.

seidhr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 560
*deep thoughts, with Seidhr*

Wonder how hard it would be to create randomized pits in the desert that opened and closed on a scripted basis, even boot to boot?  They'd be avoidable (and not necessarily deep - maybe having a nasty critter in the bottom instead) but you'd actually have to read where you were going.

Now -that- would be cool.

deskoft

  • Helper
  • Posts: 368
Seidhr,

I've always thought that creating a dynamically changing wilderness is hopefully the future for Armageddon. I think in the future, Arm might end exploring procedurally generated content every now and then, or at least more dynamic content (which we did years ago when we added changes to a room's description based on more variables like time and climate, if I recall well). I think with the new popularity of low-graphic games (Neo Scavenger on mobile platforms, for example), and the lasting, not-fading niche of people that look for experience vs graphic in their roleplaying games, its the right way to go.

seidhr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 560
There is already a fair amount of stuff that is populated semi-randomly - to the astute observer.

There are resources that pop up like this:  mineral, animal, and vegetable.  We have a couple really nice scripts in the toolbox that let us do things like this.

deskoft

  • Helper
  • Posts: 368
Seems like I was preaching to the choir then! :) That's awesome.

Delirium

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  • Posts: 11967
There's at least one plant that spawns in random locations, which makes it an adventure to find and collect it instead of bopping to the same spot every time. There's also dunes that seem to move around (though I kinda wish they also blocked your view).
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Sorry

  • Posts: 216
I thought random holes was already a thing, the mystery is totally gone now :) It was staff laying out traps all along like

"And in her long nights, in her long house of smoke and millerís stones, she baked the bread we eat in dreams, strangest loaves, her pies full of anguish and days long dead, her fairy-haunted gingerbread, her cakes wet with tears."

tapas

  • Posts: 340
Think we could get a list of fall room descriptors so we could just highlight them in text? That would be peachy.

Think we could get a list of fall room descriptors so we could just highlight them in text? That would be peachy.

Sure, why don't we get a list of all auto-hostile enemies so we can highlight that too? Or highlights of moves that might poison you?

Just... Keep your eyes open. You're in the desert, shit's dangerous. Breathe, go slow, be careful. You can highlight 'chasm', 'hole', 'pit', 'slope' and so on all you want, but having staff spill the beans on exact fall-room descriptors spoils the mystery and fear of any and all travel, not to mention the mystery and fear of coming up across a chasm that isn't a fall-room, but just a climb-room, and so on.

Stay attentive, or pay for Byn accompaniment.
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It's always lizard time.

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The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

cnemus

  • Posts: 146

Stay attentive, or pay for Byn accompaniment.

In this example are they the canary that falls into the mine first?
Quote from: Kalaziel
Just remember, the code is there to support your RP not the other way around  :)

Strongheart

  • Posts: 247
Think we could get a list of fall room descriptors so we could just highlight them in text? That would be peachy.

Sure, why don't we get a list of all auto-hostile enemies so we can highlight that too? Or highlights of moves that might poison you?

Just... Keep your eyes open. You're in the desert, shit's dangerous. Breathe, go slow, be careful. You can highlight 'chasm', 'hole', 'pit', 'slope' and so on all you want, but having staff spill the beans on exact fall-room descriptors spoils the mystery and fear of any and all travel, not to mention the mystery and fear of coming up across a chasm that isn't a fall-room, but just a climb-room, and so on.

Stay attentive, or pay for Byn accompaniment.

Well said!

I especially like how it seems to slow down people for once. The only things I wish would change are things like climbing checks. Strength plays a key role in order to recover and scramble for a purchase yet we all know how weak (for example) elves can be.. and I imagine them to be climbing alot given their natural agility as well as long reach.

Although, this isn't really a complaint so much as an observation. You'd have to pretty unlucky to fail a climb check, and the results can be disastrous! So, maybe it's fine as is? Adds a bit more danger to the mix.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 06:51:31 AM by Strongheart »

Riev

  • Posts: 5187
The answer is, clearly, make all holes a "hidden" NPC. You need to roll a scan/perception check to determine if you even SEE the hole. If you enter the room with a hole, it will "cast" a relocation spell that drops you into a pit room.


(This is entirely facetious)
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.