Author Topic: Request for overhaul  (Read 534 times)

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 132
Request for overhaul
« on: May 22, 2018, 12:09:43 PM »
Since skills are being overhauled, here is a question, why is the code written in this roundabout way?

1. Archery but no fketching skills accompanying until you get good at archery (How?  you can't make arrows)
2. Pick Lock but no ability to make picks until you get good enough at picking (How?  you can't make picks)

I don't know of any others off the top of my head but I am sure they exist.

Brokkr

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  • Posts: 370
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2018, 12:28:47 PM »
To slow down or gate progression in specific skills.

At least with the new classes.  Which really makes requests to update the current guilds pointless.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 132
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2018, 01:18:26 PM »
I can see that you would want to slow down progression so people can't metagame, but why not make it sensical by tying the level of skill level of the skill to the ability to make tools of the appropriate level.  For example, a burglar is apprentice in novice in 'pick lock' so he can craft a pick at same level or slightly higher to improve his skills rather than 15 days later, he manages to find someone who can make a lockpick.  I know it won't be changed for whatever reason, but it seems like something that could be implemented and not be game breaking.

Either way, I do not entertain any changes, but hey, this is how it is, I won't comment further.

Riev

  • Posts: 5129
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2018, 01:38:30 PM »
To slow down or gate progression in specific skills.

At least with the new classes.  Which really makes requests to update the current guilds pointless.

The third comment was rather unnecessary.

The issue with "branching" skills has always been that you need to be really good at a "similar" skill before getting a new one. It wasn't always 100%, but you need to be really good at shooting a bow before you understand how to make a decent arrow.

How do you know how to carve a lockpick, or what material to use, until you're decent enough at picking locks that you've tried a few?

How do you know how to move silently, until you've trained your ears enough to be able to hear things from a room away?

Sure, it could be reworked a bit, but to me its always made sense. You don't swing a stick around, and suddenly know what makes a good sword. You have to use a sword for a while, understand the techniques, what makes a balanced sword, etc.
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frankjacoby

  • Posts: 132
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2018, 01:49:54 PM »
Okay, getting closer to the point I was making, thieves didn't suddenly get to make picks without jamming some sort of device into a lock to see how it could be worked.  I am all for realism and all for stopping the metagame, but someone should be able to fiddle with a device using a sharp bone or a spine from a cactus or a shard of agate or something to use to skill up.  Otherwise, you have a bottleneck where a burglar is useless without a pick cause they can't pick because they have no picks because they can't learn to pick because they have no pick.  It's circular i-logic where the solution lies outside the logic.

To address the arrow making, shooting a bow makes you good at making arrows but where do you get the arrows to shoot with?

Riev

  • Posts: 5129
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 02:05:22 PM »
You get arrows by buying arrows at a shop.
You get picks by finding someone who has picks, or sells picks. They're a tool used to perform illegal actions so you're not just going to stumble upon a piece of wood that lets you pick someone's apartment.

This is still a coded MUD, and you cannot simply code "anything that might look like a pick" to be flagged as a pick object. The game doesn't really support that, and its kind of unrealistic to go around shoving rocks into locks until they open. If you do, please wish up so neighbors can come out and watch.

To address the arrow making, shooting a bow makes you good at making arrows but where do you get the arrows to shoot with?

Are you suggesting, here, that you should start with fletchery and how to make a good arrow, before you ever learn how to shoot them? I would have to disagree. You should know how to use ammunition... know its size, weight, all that... before you learn to make it. Similar to how people have to learn what effects a poison has, before they start coming up with a cure.

I've never seen a bunch of scientists throw flowers at the wall and say "This is a cure, but we don't know what disease it will cure, yet!" Sometimes, the branch paths make sense. Sometimes they don't. I think in the end, you're just going to have to make some friends in the game and find someone who will sell you what you need, and not demand you can solo the game's content.
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Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1938
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 02:07:34 PM »
I can see that you would want to slow down progression so people can't metagame, but why not make it sensical by tying the level of skill level of the skill to the ability to make tools of the appropriate level.  For example, a burglar is apprentice in novice in 'pick lock' so he can craft a pick at same level or slightly higher to improve his skills rather than 15 days later, he manages to find someone who can make a lockpick.  I know it won't be changed for whatever reason, but it seems like something that could be implemented and not be game breaking.

Either way, I do not entertain any changes, but hey, this is how it is, I won't comment further.

This seems like a cool idea. Limit the attempt at crafting lockpicks to the lockpick skill and then have the success rate depend on the pickmaking skill. It's an intriguing concept.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 132
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 04:17:26 PM »
I can see that you would want to slow down progression so people can't metagame, but why not make it sensical by tying the level of skill level of the skill to the ability to make tools of the appropriate level.  For example, a burglar is apprentice in novice in 'pick lock' so he can craft a pick at same level or slightly higher to improve his skills rather than 15 days later, he manages to find someone who can make a lockpick.  I know it won't be changed for whatever reason, but it seems like something that could be implemented and not be game breaking.

Either way, I do not entertain any changes, but hey, this is how it is, I won't comment further.

This seems like a cool idea. Limit the attempt at crafting lockpicks to the lockpick skill and then have the success rate depend on the pickmaking skill. It's an intriguing concept.

Thank you Molten, apologies if I was unclear, but I was trying to approach it from a standpoint, where do you get your tools if you can't make it yourself. If you play alone and off hours, you're pretty much screwed as noone can give you your tools.  Where did those people who make the tools get them from, somewhere, somehow, the first burglar had to make his own picks, but he couldn't make them without having the ability to pick locks which he couldn't without picks???????

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2609
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2018, 04:18:38 PM »
I can see that you would want to slow down progression so people can't metagame, but why not make it sensical by tying the level of skill level of the skill to the ability to make tools of the appropriate level.  For example, a burglar is apprentice in novice in 'pick lock' so he can craft a pick at same level or slightly higher to improve his skills rather than 15 days later, he manages to find someone who can make a lockpick.  I know it won't be changed for whatever reason, but it seems like something that could be implemented and not be game breaking.

Either way, I do not entertain any changes, but hey, this is how it is, I won't comment further.

This seems like a cool idea. Limit the attempt at crafting lockpicks to the lockpick skill and then have the success rate depend on the pickmaking skill. It's an intriguing concept.

Thank you Molten, apologies if I was unclear, but I was trying to approach it from a standpoint, where do you get your tools if you can't make it yourself. If you play alone and off hours, you're pretty much screwed as noone can give you your tools.  Where did those people who make the tools get them from, somewhere, somehow, the first burglar had to make his own picks, but he couldn't make them without having the ability to pick locks which he couldn't without picks???????
There's a shop that sells them.

Also getting into an existential crisis over the chicken and the egg situation of pick making isn't exactly an argument. This is a game. Who invented sorcery then? Who invented armor if the only way to make armor is to get armor repair up? Spooky.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 132
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2018, 04:38:13 PM »
Good point Jihelu

JustAnotherGuy

  • Posts: 2039
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2018, 05:09:34 PM »
To me the reason for it is that you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.  You have to go somewhere to find the picks you need to raise your skills.  Now of course with the new guild revamps, how skills branch and when they branch vastly differ than with the old guilds.

This game isn't about playing it entirely solo... some do, but that's for them.  It's a roleplaying game and some roles you play will likely require interaction.  Once you're able to start making picks, you gain a bit of control over those that need them.  Adds interaction in a sense.

At the same point, just like Riev said, you're not going to know how to do something until you learn about the basics of something else that may matter.  This is also why we're beta testing these new guilds and working on trying to make sense of skill progression with them.
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chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1222
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2018, 05:55:46 PM »
There are a lot of ways to obtain a pick, once you figure it out its ez.
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stoicreader

  • Posts: 109
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2018, 11:41:21 PM »
I once found a bristle from the street cleaner that made an excellent lock pick.

It's not as easy as the game (or movies) makes it seem. I've had a master lock Smith take two hours at my front door.

That's state of the art picks with a mundane apartment lock.
Meh

Riev

  • Posts: 5129
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2018, 09:48:30 AM »
I once found a bristle from the street cleaner that made an excellent lock pick.

It's not as easy as the game (or movies) makes it seem. I've had a master lock Smith take two hours at my front door.

That's state of the art picks with a mundane apartment lock.

Should've just used a bump key, unless you destroyed the lock somehow!
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Grapes

  • Posts: 411
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2018, 03:04:53 PM »
Modern locks are far more complex and sturdy than the sorts of locks one might expect to find commonly employed in Zalanthas.
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Nao

  • Posts: 1897
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2018, 03:12:57 PM »
Modern locks are far more complex and sturdy than the sorts of locks one might expect to find commonly employed in Zalanthas.

This. Even modern padlocks are probably better, and I can get the cheap ones open in a few minutes. I've also seen someone pick a better lock on my door in about 15 minutes when I lost my keys.
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650Booger

  • Posts: 506
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2018, 12:37:11 PM »
I have played a half-dozen or so lockpicky types, and have yet to discover a source for picks besides asking other PCs.  It seems to be one of those 'secrets' that puts veteran players at an advantage over newcomers.
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stoicreader

  • Posts: 109
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2018, 01:15:04 PM »
I have played a half-dozen or so lockpicky types, and have yet to discover a source for picks besides asking other PCs.  It seems to be one of those 'secrets' that puts veteran players at an advantage over newcomers.

I think for good reason.
Meh

Riev

  • Posts: 5129
Re: Request for overhaul
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2018, 03:36:48 PM »
Ask enough PCs and maybe you'll find it. There isn't some secret stash that veterans just "get access" to. Sometimes they are there, sometimes they are not. People who WOULD know, probably know.

You probably can't roll a 'Nakki Burglar and expect to walk down the street and buy lockpicks, nor trust anyone who is willing to "sell" you one. You're asking for something illegal, to do something likely illegal.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.