Author Topic: Magick and Armageddon  (Read 1397 times)

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 152
Magick and Armageddon
« on: May 03, 2018, 12:58:33 PM »
I haven't posted or participated in quite some time because frankly I am disappointed by the sheep-pack mentality that permeates the atmosphere, however, with that being said and patiently awaiting the attacks, I looked back at a post by Nergal and I wanted to address this.

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In a game where the main classes are used to provide characters with a reasonable set of mundane skills that a normal person in Zalanthas would have (and in the case of magickers, skills that the PC had pre-manifestation), it does not make any sense to provide players with classes that just contain magick spells + cooking.  It makes far more sense to make the magick subclasses work perfectly, even if that means additional tweaks in the future to make them play more like main class elementalists. I am not dismissing players' concerns about magick subclasses - however, I personally think that bringing back main guild elementalists is a giant step backwards for character creation and roleplay, because main guild elementalists completely disregard the fact that PCs are people with abilities before they manifest. It's just not the topic of this particular thread, and that is the last time I'm going to address it here.
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Has anyone considered making magick something that manifests totally at random?  Remove magick from consideration when you make a guild and make it something that has a 1/100 chance every RL monrth or so. 

Just a thought, this way, we can get away from any need for Karma and make it something totally random so that even a noob has a chance to get a magickal affiliation.

Just my $0.02
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 06:11:08 PM by frankjacoby »

nauta

  • Posts: 2335
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2018, 01:09:43 PM »
I love the idea, but I'd like to see it spelled out a bit more.  For instance, how would your idea (call it: RAS - the Random Acquisition of Spells) interface with the karma system?

As the resident historian, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out some history here.  If you are interested, Karma was implemented 10/19/1997 as a way to have some quality-control over certain races and classes, magickers included:

https://web.archive.org/web/19980113193122/http://www.armageddon.org:80/HyperNews/get/general/334.html

It has changed a little over the years, but what Azroen says there more or less sums it up: "*ALL* magick guilds require karma. This is in an effort to de-emphasize magick, and to reinforce the idea that magick-wielders are freaks of nature, not people you would want to hang around with and have a drink at the bar with." 

Despite this, almost ten years to the day later, during the so-called "end times", and as a result of staff accepting many special applications, and, likely, as a result of the slow and steady growth of the karma class, so to speak, magickers were everywhere, which resulted in "The Great Karma-Off", where players volunteered to give up their karma in order to re-establish the principle that Azroen alludes to: that magickers are freaks of nature, and quite rare.  Here's two links to that episode:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.0.html
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28018.0.html


« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 01:17:39 PM by nauta »
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2609
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2018, 01:58:04 PM »
If 'magic taint' was 1-2 spells and no mundane abilities, like touched but shittier, I wouldn't mind a random pc having access to it.

It shouldn't be a once a month chance. Not everyone is magic.

Riev

  • Posts: 5160
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2018, 01:58:58 PM »

Has anyone considered making magick something that manifests totally at random?  Remove magick from consideration when you make a guild and make it something that has a 1/100 chance every RL monrth or so. 


I'm not down with it, because if I want to roleplay out someone who manifests late, I want the option to do that. I don't want a random affliction of my character that appears after a RL year playing them, because RNG told me so.

I don't dislike the IDEA, but for me, I would not want it. It would not increase my experience or fun with the game.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

tapas

  • Posts: 291
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2018, 02:04:39 PM »
What would be cool is the option to manifest as a random magicker class, with no knowledge of which one it could be.

cshoov

  • Posts: 60
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 02:43:01 PM »
I think this is an interesting idea. However, I don't think I would enjoy it. If I want to play somebody with magic abilities, I would apply to do it. I don't think such a RP-restrictive role should be forced onto a player if they don't want it.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 152
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 04:27:01 PM »
Then, the option to choose 'No Random magick' could be implemented, this is all in going along with what was sad about pcs being regular people.  Trust me, no character in ARM (Not speaking about RL) really want to be magickers, it happens, they shouldn't be able to RP being a Rukkian because they choose to be a Rukkian, instead, I like the idea that it is totally random.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 152
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2018, 04:29:37 PM »
I must say however that I do NOT agree with giving people crappy spells, the breaking up of magick into these different aspects IMO has wrecked a staple of the game.  I have spoken with some people who stopped playing since the change and what they have said made it sound like that change was absolutely hurrendous.

Grapes

  • Posts: 416
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2018, 05:15:59 PM »
Yeah, it's actually way OP in some ways right now. Used to be you had to go through necessity, shame, humiliation, being ostracized, criticized OOCly, to get your full mundane guild of choosing buffed to the max by associating with magickers (and even then, you were not only continually dependant on the survival of said magickers to reapply said effects, but also their loyalty and cooperation). Now you can have a big chunk of that all in one package. I, however, don't have a solid opinion on the situation. Magickers were OP in ways before, and now they still are, just in different ways.

I happen to agree that, they would have skills they'd learned earlier in life before manifestion, I can see the reasoning behind that idea. I don't agree with the removal of Elkrosians or Nilazi, or even Drovians (troublesome as they may be), as they were part of what made Arm stand out in a unique way. I'm also of the opinion that full-guild magickers should still be a thing, provided their background supports it, as in, leaving no room for aquisition of main guild skills beyond those available through the subguild system, due to having manifested at a young age and, by necessity, being forced from multiple directions to work with the hand they've been dealt, whether in secret, or in the temples.

But that's just my perspective. It's not my place to say how it's run.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1311
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2018, 05:17:02 PM »
This is an interesting topic and I'd gladly discuss it. But ... heh, considering the OP managed to begin this thread with an insult and accusation, I dont really want to be part of it. It was unnecessary, even if I sortish agree to the message on occasion. Just my opinion. I would gladly participate in the actual thread, if the OP chose to edit out the unnecessary stuff and focused on the important topic of it all.

Krath

  • Posts: 2430
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2018, 05:42:55 PM »
So..Any chance we could go back to MAIN class magickers now that we have the good extended sub guilds?
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

frankjacoby

  • Posts: 152
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2018, 06:11:58 PM »
This is an interesting topic and I'd gladly discuss it. But ... heh, considering the OP managed to begin this thread with an insult and accusation, I dont really want to be part of it. It was unnecessary, even if I sortish agree to the message on occasion. Just my opinion. I would gladly participate in the actual thread, if the OP chose to edit out the unnecessary stuff and focused on the important topic of it all.

Updated - Sort of, but I'd prefer to call it an observation rather than an insult and accusation.

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1222
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2018, 06:52:22 PM »
Baaaad.  LOL.   I like the way its set up now, though it could likely use some tweeking and some of the missing guilds should come back in some form.  I would like to see main guild magickers be a thing along side the changes that have been made.  I don't have enough information to say for sure what needs tweeked.  I have only played one character since the change and I didn't go magick subguild.
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CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1109
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2018, 09:58:06 PM »
Echoing Nauta's sentiment I think magick rarity is a boon to the game.  It used to disappoint me a little when I'd ride around in the desert and see some magicker or another had left his/her tracings everywhere.  I felt like my character should be exposed more frequently to elves in life-threatening situations that had no choice but to ride (and were subsequently ostracized), or assassinations in broad daylight, than the casual discards of someone practicing a spell.

That's not a direct criticism to any player who did such things, though.  There's something like a couple hundred of us playing this game off and on, and we can't all play dirt-poor commoners whose only source of income is scraping dung and repairing boots.  We want to play characters who do things you tell stories about.

I mentioned it in another post but I think it'd be cool if there was an ability collector class like Sylar from Heroes.  The staff have their hands full with an absolutely massive class revamp right now so it's not like I'm clamoring for them to do this any time soon.  But think about what a character like that would do to everyone:

- It would make magickers fear each other
- It would make magick an unknown: what can this guy actually do?  And we would fear them
- It would make keeping the secret worth more - no leaving evidence in public, not even in the open desert.  No casually using your spells on other characters for fear that they might lead someone or something back to you

https://youtu.be/AuHP7FuH6n4?t=31s
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stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2018, 11:58:58 PM »
I LOVE this idea.

Get rid of all of magic as a choice. It's not a choice, it's a disease.

Then... When you roll a PC you have a 5% chance of your PC rolling with magic skills just to Fuck up your concept.

Made a beautiful concept? You got fucked. You gotta wear a gen, you gotta be hated, sorry, zalanthas it's not fair.
Meh

cshoov

  • Posts: 60
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2018, 03:34:04 AM »
I LOVE this idea.

Get rid of all of magic as a choice. It's not a choice, it's a disease.

Then... When you roll a PC you have a 5% chance of your PC rolling with magic skills just to Fuck up your concept.

Made a beautiful concept? You got fucked. You gotta wear a gen, you gotta be hated, sorry, zalanthas it's not fair.

Maybe I'm out of touch with the rest of the players here, but my response to this is that Zalanthas should be harsh to characters; Armageddon shouldn't be harsh to players. (Challenging, sure, but not downright sadistic.) There's a difference in a character having dreams/aspirations/whatever and getting screwed by fate, and a player putting a lot of thought into a character concept and getting their efforts shafted by a RNG. The former can be a lot of fun and make for good storytelling and the latter will have people forced into roles they don't want to do, which will then likely result in poor RP from that player.


Of course, that could be solved by this:
Then, the option to choose 'No Random magick' could be implemented, this is all in going along with what was sad about pcs being regular people.  Trust me, no character in ARM (Not speaking about RL) really want to be magickers, it happens, they shouldn't be able to RP being a Rukkian because they choose to be a Rukkian, instead, I like the idea that it is totally random.

Edited for punctuation
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 03:35:48 AM by cshoov »

Riev

  • Posts: 5160
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2018, 09:57:40 AM »
Cshoov you are not out of touch. This is a roleplaying GAME, not a "harsh world simulator". We play the characters we WANT TO PLAY, and then bad things happen to them and we get to make decisions.

if I don't want to play a PC that got mutiliated and lost its hand? I'm going to store.
If I don't want to play a magicker because one month RNG decided I'm a magicker? I'm going to store.
If I don't want to be enslaved and forced to live in a 4-room obsidian mine? I'm going to store.

The idea is kitchy, but no.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1956
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2018, 10:53:36 AM »
.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 03:27:56 AM by Molten Heart »

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2018, 11:01:40 AM »
Would not roleplaying manifesting and just never using magick abilities be an option for those who don't want to be magickers? If they aren't using magick, they could easily live the life of a mundane person and then maybe objectionable player would change their minds....  Power/magick corrupts. Or maybe objectionable players wouldn't change their minds and have their character continue to live mundane lives.

Exactly. If you didn't want to be one, don't play one. Just don't cast and have your character feel guilty and shameful about it.
Meh

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7718
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2018, 02:32:21 PM »
Would not roleplaying manifesting and just never using magick abilities be an option for those who don't want to be magickers? If they aren't using magick, they could easily live the life of a mundane person and then maybe objectionable player would change their minds....  Power/magick corrupts. Or maybe objectionable players wouldn't change their minds and have their character continue to live mundane lives.

Exactly. If you didn't want to be one, don't play one. Just don't cast and have your character feel guilty and shameful about it.

Except the game code just doesn't work that way. If you are found out to be a mage, EVEN IF YOU NEVER CAST A SINGLE SPELL EVER - you are branded a mage, period.

If you're going to be forced to risk being branded a mage, then those mage skills better come with a whole lot more than just "touched by." Or you'll see a pretty significant exodus of players.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
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Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1956
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2018, 05:55:20 PM »
.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 03:27:21 AM by Molten Heart »

Riev

  • Posts: 5160
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2018, 07:25:43 PM »
Just apply to be a Krathi.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7718
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2018, 07:31:05 PM »
Now if they provided a tertiary subguild, mage-related, with these options:
a) touched by whira
b) touched by vivadu
c) touched by ruk
d) touched by suk-krath
e) none of the above

And you had to pick any of those for a 3rd skillset...

I'd be fine with that.

Not interested in playing a magick subguild, DEFINITELY not interested in being FORCED to play one.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Dar

  • Posts: 1311
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2018, 09:14:12 PM »
All I would like is for current mage subguilds to have a semi-documented method of becoming full mages through RP and character development.


This may indeed be possible though. I do not know.

Eyeball

  • Posts: 816
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2018, 10:22:16 PM »
Why not make being "touched" too weak a connection to an element to be detected?

EDIT: That way, if you were randomly "touched" but didn't want to sacrifice you character concept, you could just ignore it.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 05:17:25 PM by Eyeball »

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1496
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2018, 10:33:43 PM »
It seems I need to enlighten you and stress that this game has very strict consent rules. The elements aren't allowed to touch you unless you consent beforehand.
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Whatever happens, happens.

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2018, 02:23:52 AM »
Just apply to be a Krathi.

I WISH!
Meh

infinitehope

  • Posts: 27
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2018, 01:03:46 PM »
I wouldn't mind an opt-in option for random chances of manifestation. But i'd really prefer the chance to be very very low.

I personally dont miss full magicker guilds, they felt way to easy to guildsniff out and in turn, people would be able to figure out if said character was rather new and squishy.
And then using OOC experience to then kill said character instead of rping upon the one thing that is very much stated: Magick is scary, and people fear it.

I do think full magicker guilds should come back as an option for those who really want to be dedicated to magic - more options are always better than fewer.

Dar

  • Posts: 1311
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2018, 01:50:50 PM »
I wouldnt actually mind having full magickers that are a one way change over type system.

Example.

Everyone start mundane. The character must live for 5 days, before getting an option of losing their subguild and gaining a touched element.
After 10 days played, the character has an option of losing their touched and gaining one of their full elementalist subguilds.
After 15 days played, the character has an option of losing their guild, becoming a full elementalist, and choosing a new subguild.

ALL of that is optional. They do not have to choose right after as the hours played ticks a specific date. They can choose to 'never' manifest. They can choose to manifest partially. They can choose to manifest fully.

The only problem with having full elementalists is that it makes gimped sorcerers a little weak, considering their assumed danger. But I'm not a fan of an idea of having full sorcs running around freely either.

Riev

  • Posts: 5160
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2018, 02:42:47 PM »
One time, a magick person touched me, and it ruined the idea I had for my character because magick is overpowered.

Another time, someone played a sorceror, but I feel like sorcerers are too powerful to be in the hands of plebian players and only staff members can be trusted, because they're better than us players.

Also, when it comes to magick, it should happen to me at random and not be my choice, because the Karma Review system doesn't work and I want to throw a fireball. But not an OP fireball. Just one that can kill mobs, not PCs.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Akariel

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 571
Re: Magick and Armageddon
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2018, 08:24:32 PM »
Things to remember when discussing topics in this thread:

Do not post information pertaining to how magickers work, or how you think they work. Not only does it go against the rules of the game, but specifically in cases where you haven't played a magicker since the changes, you're oftentimes absolutely wrong about how certain systems work.