Author Topic: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play  (Read 3608 times)

Nao

  • Posts: 1882
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2018, 06:33:35 AM »
Well-played half-giants annoy me on an OOC level. But do I want to remove them from the game? Hell no. If there is not enough variety in game, we should add more options (like the missing magick elements that have been removed), not remove existing ones.
 
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nauta

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2018, 07:56:26 AM »
I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.


Discuss.

Worries about how HG's fit in the world are as old as the gdb itself:

http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/10.html

I'll echo the sentiment that HGs should be played as about as reliable as a child with low intelligence, as the docs dictate. 

The other side of the documentation is that non-half giants PCs (especially leadership PCs, who bear some responsibility for reinforcing the world to new players) should not treat half-giants as reliable!  Just like with an elf that isn't acting slimy, you still treat them as slimy, so too an HG that isn't acting dumb. 

This solves the problem OP is describing: Salarr and Kadius should NOT be getting into bidding wars for the local HG muscle!  People would not feel more safe with an HG in their crew -- in fact, they might groan.  Great, Sarge brought Big Bigs along, now the trip is going to take twice as long... In my view, the AOD Sarge in charge of the HG unit just pulled the short straw, and a noble or templar wandering around with an HG crew gets snickers from their fellow nobles and templars.

Finally, I'll just pitch my idea for the following RNG on a HG rolled each square:

1-4: Do nothing.
5: Sit down.
6: Stop moving.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Suhuy

  • Posts: 1024
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2018, 08:05:10 AM »
I don't believe they add anything to politics, military clans, or anywhere else that couldn't be done better or in a more interesting way by humanoid PCs. And they take away options from the dynamics of such by their existence.

Half-giants are powerful. Power is part and parcel of the political realm. Without power, you have no politics. Though a half-giant might not be heavily involved in political decisions, they can and have been used to further political agendas all the time.

And even if your points to remove them were all 100% valid, after everything the game has gone through over the past several years is removing more content really worth it to you? Imagine the storm you'd be creating? Thank you, no.

Refugee

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2018, 08:29:21 AM »
Man.

While I have seen a lot of half-giants who seem just regular human beings in huge powerful bodies, my Arm experience would be filled with a lot less laughter and warmth if I had never had the chance to befriend Albie, or Seek, or Ellar. 

I would hate to see the half-giants gone.

Lizzie

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2018, 11:55:12 AM »
Man.

While I have seen a lot of half-giants who seem just regular human beings in huge powerful bodies, my Arm experience would be filled with a lot less laughter and warmth if I had never had the chance to befriend Albie, or Seek, or Ellar. 

I would hate to see the half-giants gone.

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Malken

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2018, 01:31:31 PM »
I always try my super crazy best to not have to rp with half-giants. It just annoys me tremendously no matter how well played or not they might be.

But I don't know, I'm in the add stuff instead of removing stuff camp.
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Armaddict

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2018, 01:49:39 PM »
Just kill 'em if they're too loyal and stop letting them live long enough to get buff unless they show they can be manipulated.
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lostinspace

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2018, 01:55:06 PM »
Yup, round up a mob and put them down. Takes a good few to make it happen, but it's doable.
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Riev

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2018, 02:05:48 PM »
I've enjoyed some of the half-giants I've been around. THEIR RP aside, though, I think the childlike wonder and simple-mindedness makes them endearing to us as PLAYERS and it makes it difficult to fathom killing them just for "being strong". And when you set it up that the strongest, most naturally damage-resistant characters are typically at odds with the weakest, lankiest characters... well. You WOULD need a dozen elves trying to kill one HG and ... really. Why would they? One swing and three of them are dead.

To me, the issue revolves around "Who DOESN'T want a super strong HG on their side?". If you can get someone that can fight spiders, and fend off melee gith attacks with relative ease, of course you want them on your side. Even if it unbalances the encounters, people naturally assume they make up for it in "winnability".

I wouldn't say remove them. I like that they're being monitored for how many are in game at any one time. I don't think removing them as a playable option fixes anything, though.
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WarriorPoet

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2018, 02:27:48 PM »
To me the players that CRUSH IT on the roleplay side more than make up for the occasional turd in the punchbowl. By and large they are well played.

Leave 'em alone.

I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.
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Namino

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2018, 02:43:50 PM »
I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

To be clear, I do not want HGs removed at all. I do wish there was better policing of their RP.  Maybe staff does this and players ignore the criticism, given how many hyper competent HGs I see.

When I see a perceptive HG who relegates their stupid side to simple comic relief or word misuse while simultaneously being able to locate any herb or animal in the Known with zero assistance, know how to count large quantities of coin, and remember pivotal pieces of niche information for survival and social reasons, it irks me. There. I said it. I'm irked. Their stupidity is only played out when it's inconsequential and functionally they remain competent. I'm sure there are HGs that do not fit this trope, but they appear to be way in the minority to me.

It's as jarring to me as if a Mul found a female PC to rp pregnancy and spent all their time emoting about their six npc miracle quarter mul children. I can't imagine that mul PC would not attract staff ire up to and including storage.

So what's the deal?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 02:47:09 PM by Namino »

Delirium

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2018, 02:44:32 PM »
I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

This is what bothers me the most. Especially people who play half-giants who are cunning enough to successfully lie, manipulate, cheat, etc.

Don't get me started on seeing half-giants sit around punching raptors just to work up their defense/offense.

Employing a half-giant should raise the following question: "Am I prepared to babysit this monster?" Dealing with a half-giant should mean that you must speak very clearly and literally as if you were speaking to someone with no capability for subtleties, because you are. In a well-roleplayed world.

One of my favorite half-giant moments is when I said, "We'll keep a running inventory of <item>." *pause, glances at half-giant* "Don't actually run with <item>."

Because I knew that half-giant would literally pick up the items and run with them if I hadn't clarified that statement.
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ShaLeah

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2018, 02:55:15 PM »
Well-played half-giants annoy me on an OOC level.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Hm1vMiYhIedaM/giphy.gif


I'm against removal.
I'm for making them 3 karma and better adherence to documentation.
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Akariel

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2018, 05:16:01 PM »
-Updated shooting bows/loading crossbows so there is a (small) chance to break them when the character is significantly stronger than the bow/crossbows pull value.  This is to encourage characters to seek out weapons that better match their character.

This is a subject that we have been, and will continue to look into further as time goes on. There are no plans at this time to remove half giants from play or the game world. I am personally in favor of adding coded limitations to counteract coded boons.

worldofsand

  • Posts: 14
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2018, 05:58:21 PM »
I'm less concerned with power dynamics than with the fact that HGs are always played really badly. Legitimately can't think of one that wasn't basically "hur dur me dumb + strong" material, in the most cringeworthy fashion imaginable. There's something about the race that just does not seem to lend itself to good roleplay. It's hard to express this without being very critical, but the fact of the matter is that people do not RP well when playing HGs, and the one-in-twenty exception to this does not sway my opinion. The current standard of HG RP grows old in a matter of hours.

Aside from that, I don't think the code is very good at handling those strength levels. We have a whole class of weapons which for this race is just about synonymous with One Hit Kill. We have skills that depend mostly on strength and height, giving this race gigantic bonuses to them even if the character doesn't have the skill at all. It's a race that basically cannot be encumbered, allowing them to carry an apartment's worth of belongings in trunks. And having 200ish health means many game mechanics break against them, like falling damage and many scripted events.

If there had been a long-standing tradition of impeccably-played HGs, I'd be more inclined to look past the code weirdness surrounding the race. But since it tends to attract those who just want to be as strong as you can be in the game, that's simply not the way it is. I'd go so far as to say that good roleplayers tend to shy away from this race due to the many obstacles that give a conscientious player pause when trying to do anything autonomously. In reality, a race with the mental faculties of a child would only survive under constant supervision. They shouldn't be succesful independents who traverse the world and do everything that a skilled human would do, because that's circumventing the supposed drawbacks of the race. There's supposed to be more to playing a HG than dumbspeak and the occasional token mistake when there's no cost to it.

To me, the correctly played HG is completely dependent on a clan who takes care of their needs and assigns them duties that don't challenge their severe intellecual disadvantages. That's just not how people play them, though, and I wouldn't expect anyone to want to play that way. So I'll agree that the game would be better served without them. They're caricatures, walking jokes that seem to be played almost exclusively by people for whom absurdly high strength is a substitute for creativity and interesting characterization.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 06:12:57 PM by worldofsand »

Eyeball

  • Posts: 791
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2018, 06:06:54 PM »
In the vein of adding instead of removing, why not make the kylori a playable race? Lower average agility, strength and endurance and wisdom than human kind, but they could fly! They'd have a communal aerie or two and their own concerns (protecting their young from predatory birds, for example).

Or have a bunch of sentient gas bag type creatures get blown over a mountain range and settle an area. Slow moving, permanently levitated, maybe depend on the wind to travel any great distance, tentacles dangle down to the ground and can anchor them, yet quite human in their personalities.

Something. Why do all races have to be humanoid (save for mantises which aren't playable currently). Wouldn't it be great to have some new flavor in the world?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 09:05:42 PM by Eyeball »

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 536
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2018, 08:20:48 PM »
I see a lot of people afraid to see something that causes issues removed because they have already lost a lot. The relationship with chunks of the player base and staff (in this thread specifically) reminds me of an abused spouse who is afraid to talk about an issue because they think the baby will go out with the bathwater.

It seems like a lot of people would rather have a flawed race playable than open up the options for replacement because I think some level of trust was gone after we lost a city, half of the magickal elements, full sorcerers, and the ability to gain karma.

That’s a pretty sad state of affairs.
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Armaddict

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2018, 08:21:53 PM »
-Updated shooting bows/loading crossbows so there is a (small) chance to break them when the character is significantly stronger than the bow/crossbows pull value.  This is to encourage characters to seek out weapons that better match their character.

This is a subject that we have been, and will continue to look into further as time goes on. There are no plans at this time to remove half giants from play or the game world. I am personally in favor of adding coded limitations to counteract coded boons.

I support you in this course of action.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

CodeMaster

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2018, 08:41:01 PM »
-Updated shooting bows/loading crossbows so there is a (small) chance to break them when the character is significantly stronger than the bow/crossbows pull value.  This is to encourage characters to seek out weapons that better match their character.

This is a subject that we have been, and will continue to look into further as time goes on. There are no plans at this time to remove half giants from play or the game world. I am personally in favor of adding coded limitations to counteract coded boons.

Years ago, 500 coins was a lot to spend on a resize - but now inflation has happened because of all the cool job scripts that have been added.  My random Armageddon thought: maybe tailoring/resizing costs are due for a bump?
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chrisdcoulombe

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2018, 09:03:39 PM »
I propose a war between half-giants and the newly returned halflings.
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Jozhole

  • Posts: 36
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2018, 09:43:27 PM »
I would like to see the peaks of half-giant power compressed to create a smaller dynamic range. Their power is only rivaled by the strongest magick classes. I wouldn't be sad to see them completely removed from the game though.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6006
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2018, 10:01:02 PM »
I'm not in favor of complete removal from the game.  I'm not in favor of them being less powerful.

As Akariel posted about, I'm in favor of things being sacrificed for that power.  I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

In a way, it's much the same way I feel about old mages; they were powerful, but their drawback was -strong- social stigma.  Once the playerbase started 'working around' the social stigma for the sake of inclusion (and some other things), the power became problematic.  Half-giants have a -strong- roleplay drawback that is hard for players to embrace, and is worked around, and the game setting itself kind of...works around it, which makes the power seem problematic.

As I've said for a long time.  Half-giants are often played for comedic relief, but otherwise the same.  Don't trust them with secrets.  Don't trust them without supervision.  Don't treat them like really strong things you send off to do things for you.  They should only 'work' in the military when attached at the hip with authority figures...you really shouldn't see them, ever, without a sergeant or templar around to dictate their actions.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

boog

  • Posts: 10668
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2018, 10:22:40 PM »
-Updated shooting bows/loading crossbows so there is a (small) chance to break them when the character is significantly stronger than the bow/crossbows pull value.  This is to encourage characters to seek out weapons that better match their character.

This is a subject that we have been, and will continue to look into further as time goes on. There are no plans at this time to remove half giants from play or the game world. I am personally in favor of adding coded limitations to counteract coded boons.

Years ago, 500 coins was a lot to spend on a resize - but now inflation has happened because of all the cool job scripts that have been added.  My random Armageddon thought: maybe tailoring/resizing costs are due for a bump?

The last time I played, I had an item tailored.

The tailor told me it was going to be 2432530597 coins. I think it's fixed. ;)

(It was bugged. Pwomise.)
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Brokkr

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2018, 12:16:04 AM »
I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

This is what bothers me the most. Especially people who play half-giants who are cunning enough to successfully lie, manipulate, cheat, etc.

Feedback isn't always taken well.  Sometimes quite the opposite.

MeTekillot

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2018, 08:37:33 AM »
Half-giant plague that makes them Flowers for Algernon before killing them.

Where have you buried the body, MeTekillot?