Author Topic: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play  (Read 5517 times)

Rahnevyn

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2018, 12:06:12 PM »
I feel the need to comment because a lot of posts in this thread are talking about documentation being ignored for whatever reason. This is not okay. We can disagree on interpretation of documentation, and if anyone has questions about specific situations involving themself or another player they can open up a question request or a player complaint as appropriate. That is what those request types are for. But racial documentation is not meant to be an optional guideline. It is meant to define parameters of how you portray a character that fits into our world.

Finding examples of others ignoring documentation does not justify doing it yourself. The "this is a game" excuse is also not a justification, as it leaves out a key element: this is a roleplaying game, where portraying your race according to documentation is not just encouraged, it is expected. Yes, it is even expected to the point that if following documentation means you might miss out on an RPT or other opportunities, you should stay true to your roleplay.

But also, give your fellow players a chance. Yes, HGs are big and scary. You take a risk just interacting with one, maybe it will squish you, or tell on you to its friends. But I encourage you to try anyway and let the other player show you how they will react. Assume good intentions and that everyone is out to play to the best of their ability. If you have questions or get burned by this approach, again, that's where staff can help.
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Gunnerblaster

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2018, 01:23:21 PM »
I personally like having Half-giants as part of the game. I feel a HG's primary role is as an enabler. Effectively, a support role that encourages other players to push stories. In that scenario, I love half-giants.

But to see HG's portrayed as only slightly less-smart humans and going out and operating independently - Frustrates me. A HG should never be independent or playing by themselves.
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Delirium

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2018, 02:06:51 PM »
If you send a half-giant out to do something unchaperoned, you should expect them to screw it up. "Go patrol for criminals" and you find them hanging out with a notorious Guild face who is "helping them identify criminals".
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Dar

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2018, 02:20:46 PM »
I hate and love Half Giants at the same time. I love them when they're played properly. But I hate them, not for their improper play, but for my occasional inability to provide them with content. That whole 'someone follows after you, guarding you' routine that some characters do. I love them for it, but it drives me up the walls when I dont have the energy, or creativity to give them something to do. This  does motivate me for coming up with shit and most of the time, I do. But the times when I dont, it sometimes really shakes me. So when Half giants grow slightly smarter with time, enough to be able to provide their own entertainment. I take it as a godsend. Or when I can pair multiple half giants together, so they can create a circus of awesomeness, that is also great.  But on occasion. When my gameplay is more cerebral, I literally avoid playing with half giants.


Riev

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2018, 02:35:50 PM »
As others have mentioned, the coded benefits of a half-giant are outweighed by their non-coded discrepancies. A mul is strong, but prone to a rage and hunting by the big cities their entire lives.

A sorcerer can summon a fireball on you, but if they are seen casting a spell they could be reported and hunted.

A magicker can turn your dick into sand, but while allowed to live, they're always untrusted and blamed for every little thing.

A half-giant has a lot of HP, natural armor, and can wear the heaviest/best damage-reducing armor. They have massive strength. They are held back by the non-coded limitations of the roleplay surrounding them, and the fact that they can't be CODED leaders of any clan. Or rather they could be, but staff would reverse it soon.

HGs aren't a problem. The way people play them aren't SPECIFICALLY a problem. That they, like dwarves, are given coded advantages with no coded disadvantages is the issue.
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X-D

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2018, 05:02:58 PM »
Coded disadvantage? How about wis so low dwarves look like Stephen hawking, Nice high AGI and you might have 4 items in inventory and forget about any of the agi skills being reliable. Hey, I just got a 30 coin pair of gloves...go get them HG sized, that will be 210 coins please. Mounts are like Henry Ford talking, you can have any mount you want as long as it is an inix. A HG with 65 mana is impressive. I want to go in this cave...nope, tunnel, nope, room with my friends...nope.
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Krath

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2018, 01:38:19 PM »
I have to agree with X-D on this one. There are -tons- of additional coded disadvantages, much which we -cannot- go into because it is IC sensitive information that you would find out playing in game.

As far as how to properly RP a half-giant, we all have our opinions, but maybe the staff needs to give a more thorough explanation as to how to RP one.

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CodeMaster

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2018, 04:48:42 PM »
I have to agree with X-D on this one. There are -tons- of additional coded disadvantages, much which we -cannot- go into because it is IC sensitive information that you would find out playing in game.

As far as how to properly RP a half-giant, we all have our opinions, but maybe the staff needs to give a more thorough explanation as to how to RP one.

There are two help files to read - I don't think this one is on staff
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Grapes

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #133 on: May 12, 2018, 06:50:24 PM »
Fact is HGs get played weird sometimes, and when they do there's little to encourage treating them as HGs after. Myself, having dealt with a HG previously mentioned as to having been smart enough to hold leadership roles... I did hornswaggle them ICly. I'm not certain the situation is as cut and dried as it can appear on the surface. One isolated incident, yes, one where my PC was staring death right in the face, unflinchingly (elf, if you must know)... well, I conned the shit out of them with bullshit reasoning, even if I was innocent, I felt obligated to be full of shit by virtue of playing an elf. They went with it.

I've seen a lot of HGs complained about, when I complained about a HG, it was mostly through the request tool, and this went ignored, or seemingly so. I played a human PC who was relentlessly persecuted by a HG that never forgot, as soon as I got out of chargen. This did not seem fair, in the slightest, it never got bored or found something else to do, it was always on, from chargen out, my PC was, "That guy who's obviously a witch and you should kill them." (wasn't a witch) for like, a full-on IC year. I got banned because I finally got pissed enough to OOC to the player while they were in the room "Why don't you fuck off?!"

HGs that never forget are an annoyance, for sure. I couldn't get any breathing room even after dissappearing for two IG months.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 07:06:57 PM by Grapes »
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worldofsand

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #134 on: May 13, 2018, 03:16:19 PM »
Coded disadvantage?

None of those things come close to matching the advantage of having like 200 hp/stun and doing 2-3 times as much damage as normal characters.

Quote
How about wis so low dwarves look like Stephen hawking

It certainly doesn't prevent HGs from raising their skills in a manner that makes them extremely deadly far, far quicker than any other race (except muls, who barely count.)

Quote
Nice high AGI and you might have 4 items in inventory

Inventory item capacity is nearly irrelevant. You can carry a trunk under your arm all day. Who cares about anything else?

Quote
and forget about any of the agi skills being reliable

While you might not be good at stuff like stealth and climbing, that's a guild-specific disadvantage. Who cares about those if you're a warrior? You get a bigger bonus to combat skills from your strength than you lose from low agility. If your HG doesn't land a particularly low agility, it doesn't gives serious penalties. You'll still be able to climb out of a hole, you'll still be able to function as a character. Just no bonuses.

Quote
Hey, I just got a 30 coin pair of gloves...go get them HG sized, that will be 210 coins please.

Equipment that shops have in stock by default conforms to your size when bought. Once you've played the character for a few days and have upgraded to something better, you should no longer have a reason to obtain new equipment very often, and money stops mattering much. I doubt resizing items costs any given HG more than like 1000 per RL month, and probably stops entirely after the first month or two as you have your kit in order

Quote
Mounts are like Henry Ford talking, you can have any mount you want as long as it is an inix.

Oh, you have to ride an inix. What a crippling predicament. Maybe if HGs were limited to a mount that was actually bad. Maybe there should be an extremely slow, asthmatic race of mounts that HGs are forced to ride. As long as there isn't, having to ride an inix is not a disadvantage.

Quote
A HG with 65 mana is impressive.

If you make a HG magicker, you know what you're in for.

Quote
I want to go in this cave...nope, tunnel, nope, room with my friends...nope.

While irritating, this is rarely something that really matters.


Honestly, the half-giant is such a codedly powerful race that it deserves to have restrictions closer to what the muls suffer. You shouldn't be able to just make a HG and happy-go-lucky your way around the game with impunity. If the code remains such that strength affects attack damage and combat skills by as much as it currently does, it's actually not even realistic for the city-states to allow HGs to be free citizens. You have here a race that can completely annihilate almost any form of life with their incredible natural strength. Why would a sorcerer-king (who possibly had a hand in their creation) or merchant council not mandate that every HG is a servant of the government? Surely it's trivial to subjugate this race.

I'd be down with HGs in their current form if they were more like muls: not free. They don't have to be slaves, but they should be soldiers by default. It should be a race you choose if you want to play a supersoldier who struggles with the challenges of obeying their commander. It should not be the race you play if you want to ride around the world at your leisure and giggle as you hit people for horrendous damage while wearing full silt-horror armor and having too much health and stun to be susceptible to most of the things that are normally a real threat to a skilled fighter. That just doesn't make sense to me, and I think the fact that it's possible is what leads too many players to play a HG without caring enough about the roleplaying aspect. I for one have seen enough of low-effort HGs who are little more than walking strength scores who put in a token effort to sound dumb.

This may hurt the one or two players per year who get the notion to play a HG merchant or something, but I think that's just tough luck. There should not be a race of free people who get to be so wildly powerful in combat, where the only thing supposedly keeping them in check is the frankly unreasonable expectation of players making wrong decisions when it matters. You can't ask people to do that. When you're a seasoned mudder and your character's life is in danger, your fingers do the thinking. I would never expect a HG player to intentionally rescue the wrong target or panic and do nothing when it really counts. This is why soft restrictions on extremely powerful character types is not a good idea. In terms of coded power, HGs honestly belong just a notch below muls and the current form of sorcerers. Why, then, are they not similarly burdened?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 03:21:35 PM by worldofsand »

Lizzie

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2018, 03:47:03 PM »
...

Well okay, Skippy.

Meanwhile, I don't see any problem with half-giants. Even many of the ones people complained about, I had fun interacting with. Not all. The Tarzan-esque "me have fun smack-em good on head unga bunga" ones, not so much. But thankfully those are few and far between.

The ones that are a problem, should be brought to the staff's attention. Half-giants are approved as a matter of trust between staff and player. If the player is abusing the privileged, he should be called out. Not to us - but to the staff. In the form of a player complaint.


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X-D

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2018, 07:39:32 PM »
Legit coded disadvantages, and not nearly all of them. Just because -You- Don't like them or think they are enough is beside the point, people said they don't have any when they have many.  You can pick apart the coded or uncoded advantages to every single class and race in the game.. So what? Every single race/class can be and often is played badly, should they all be removed?

200Hp....ooohhh...I have had humans past 120, dwarves past 150 and HGs with 160. I have taken out a pair of HG warriors with WAY more time played with a single delf ranger under 12 days played in melee...using clubs no less. Hell, I have killed long lived HG's with every other race without any issues.

And You are wrong on the wis...I can make any other race with at least good wis WAY more deadly WAY faster then any HG...without even trying.

Can HG's be power houses, Sure, but then so can anybody else. Do they hit really really hard and wear really heavy armor...Yup...But so what, they actually barely affect the game and leave no lasting legacy.
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Cind

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #137 on: May 14, 2018, 02:36:18 AM »
Just play a dwarf, and learn to think solely about your own survival and your focus. While that can be demanding, no one is going to call you out for refusing to fall for an elf's trick. I don't see how you guys handle average dwarf wisdom, much less the kindergarten hell giants must be.
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stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #138 on: May 14, 2018, 08:21:41 AM »
Its too hard to PK in arm. HG just have a realistic ability to murder. If I have a 5 Y/O a spear, they could charge and kill a person with a single strike. They don't need to practice it 100 times against others.

I could teach my grandmother to successful SAP with a brick. She doesn't need to fail at sapping 200 times to master it.

So a giant can one hit kill you with a club to the head... That makes sense. A 10 year old child should be able to do this.

A rinthi half elf assassin should be able to stab you 100 times with a sharpened tooth brush handle in under a minute while you sit together in prison.

A rinthi half elf assassin can't even kill a rat in under a minute.

I get HG seem to be overpowered. But it's not that they are overpowered, its that the game is unbalanced in other aspects and HG are the only CODED realistic race so it's seems they are overpowered.
Meh

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 66
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #139 on: May 15, 2018, 12:35:58 PM »

I believe that certain HG's can 'seem' like their behavior is an oddity compared to the docs, but sometimes an HG is just mimicking the behavior they are to have seen according to the character concept. If my companions as a young giant were hunter/gatherer sorts, why wouldn't it make sense that I know how to do it. I may not know 'why' I'm doing it, or even why it needs to be done this way, but I still have the ability to do these things because I have seen it done so much. As long as it is simple, look for creatures, beat the shit out of them, cut em up, sell em to Salarr....  that doesn't seem out of character for a half giant at all to me. I played a half giant that would get a lot of things and just take whatever he was paid by the buyer because he didn't know how to count.

What I am trying to say here, is that sometimes looking from an outside perspective, half giants can do things that appear independent, but if you take the opportunity to talk to that player IC, you might find out that they are playing their character, as they see the docs, correctly after all.
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KankWhisperer

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #140 on: May 15, 2018, 01:07:08 PM »
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

sleepyhead

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2018, 03:01:54 PM »
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.

Insigne

  • Posts: 327
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2018, 03:58:51 PM »
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.
+1.

I don't know how difficult adjusting the skill system for a single race would be, but this is a terrific idea. I think half-giants should be able pick new skills up faster than other races - but never actually master them.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 04:02:27 PM by Insigne »

Strongheart

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2018, 08:07:42 PM »
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.
+1.

I don't know how difficult adjusting the skill system for a single race would be, but this is a terrific idea. I think half-giants should be able pick new skills up faster than other races - but never actually master them.

I concur, that'd be really neat to try out!
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stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2018, 11:29:53 PM »
I would love a non combat HG grebber. A ranger... Outlaw for climb skill.
Meh

seidhr

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #145 on: May 31, 2018, 12:07:31 AM »
Pro tip:  Rangers branch climb easily!  ;)

Strongheart

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #146 on: May 31, 2018, 09:15:10 AM »
The proiest pro tip that ever tipped! 8)
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stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #147 on: June 01, 2018, 06:49:04 PM »
Pro tip:  Rangers branch climb easily!  ;)

I never branched it with my 5 day ranger... How are newbies supposed to figure this shit out?  Fucking stupid game and it's fucking secrets at every damn corner.

I'm trying to breathe calmly. Why is this a Damn secret? Fuck.

What skill does it branch from? I typed forage like 10k times. It's so Damn frustrating.
Meh

Delirium

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #148 on: June 01, 2018, 06:54:11 PM »
Hit me up in helper chat.
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Cind

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Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
« Reply #149 on: June 02, 2018, 03:53:53 AM »
You know, I didn't learn how to branch new spells as a witch for about twenty witches. A few of these things really ought to be outlined, or allowed to be talked about.

A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

The first sentence of that out of context I agree with. I don't think HGs should really be able to be merchants, and the idea that they can be a ranger (knowing how to climb, shoot, ride, lead two mounts, get through storms, and recognize and deal with poisons) and an assassin also doesn't feel... right, you know what I mean? It feels like there are too many cerebreal skills on those classes, also I guess you can do what I've been doing for years and ignore half of what you get.

I think the problem boils down to the fact that we are all particularly smart people playing a game where OOCly and ICly you need intelligence to play and one of the races happens to be such a restrictive set of morons that we can't figure out how to do them the way the docs currently say to do them (nonloyal, screwing things up all the time.) If we _really_ played HGs the way they ought to be, it wouldn't be hard for a resourceful elf to figure out how to kill one, and after a while of it we'd come to the conclusion that the strength they bring to the table just might not be worth protecting.
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