Author Topic: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients  (Read 2310 times)

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1100
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2018, 09:37:03 PM »
We have enough raw ingredients that unless you specifically set up the system on the front end to make essentially generic items with predefined substitutions to keyword/description based on certain ingredients, things like substituting soapstone for sandstone for jasper for granite, etc. for the buttons and carru for duskhorn for inix for the leather doesn't work.

Because you are not looking at thousands of permutations, you are looking at millions of permutations.

Yes, I understand that.  That's why a transparent list is the only viable option that doesn't prejudice the game toward older players.  You'd have to redo the entire system to make it fun and interesting to try and succeed at new recipes.

What if there were special help files that were only available to you if you had master crafting?  They could be programmatically generated, updated weekly, and contain a few dozen random recipes that anyone could craft?

Alternatively: Let's have a shop in game that keeps a stock of a 10 - 20 random, craftable items. Maybe include those that are clan-restricted.

They wouldn't restock so you can't just buy an infinite number of craftable items, but be re-stocked at reboots. Crafters could buy that stuff and and be guaranteed that the item is craftable and can be analyzed.

This would get forgotten recipes in game. You can access them at a price. You could still discover new things, and everyone would end up with different secret recipes.

Yeah this is a great idea.  Some wandering NPC merchant in the bazaar with a rotating selection.

I'm feeling very negative about Arm. Don't even know what plant to use for tea and I haven't been able to ask anyone IG about it and no one will tell me OOC.

Its tea. Not an exploit. Not anything to give me a coded advantage. Its some thing any zalanthian would know...

Why the secret?

I'm in favor of transparency for a matter of playability. I'm seriously considering quitting and getting into a productive hobby. Maybe ill work for free in an restaurant to learn how to cookbetter or something.

Maybe yoga.

I'm surprised nobody has answered you.  Sorry about that.  Here's the gist: I don't think you can craft tea or any other liquid in the game that isn't in a vial.  Crafting into vials use the brew command.  Similarly I don't think you can mastercraft any item that is a liquid or a poison.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

The reason for this might be surprising: liquids are handled VERY differently than items in Diku.  Items are by design easy to create, rename, modify, and add attributes to.  But the Diku team didn't afford liquids the same design. Liquids are in fact an attribute on a a container object.  Correspondingly there's a fixed number of liquids (something like 8 in the original Diku), and it requires editing C code to change their names and qualities.  Digging into the C code requires both privileged access and know-how that not every staff member has.
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Grapes

  • Posts: 416
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2018, 11:11:49 PM »
I've seen it done IG. I've kept my silence long enough. I still don't know the syntax, but it involves a teapot, water, and one of several tea-making plants. I don't think it's a standard craft. I am totally not being a smartass, I do not know how to make tea either, that is the extent of my knowlege.
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nauta

  • Posts: 2335
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2018, 11:27:20 PM »
I'm feeling very negative about Arm. Don't even know what plant to use for tea and I haven't been able to ask anyone IG about it and no one will tell me OOC.

Its tea. Not an exploit. Not anything to give me a coded advantage. Its some thing any zalanthian would know...

Why the secret?

I'm in favor of transparency for a matter of playability. I'm seriously considering quitting and getting into a productive hobby. Maybe ill work for free in an restaurant to learn how to cookbetter or something.

Maybe yoga.

The syntax for operating a teapot is here:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Still

You do not need a skill to operate a teapot.  You will, as you suggest, need tea leaves.  I'm not sure what is up with our help files at the moment, but check out the old ones:

http://old.armageddon.org/general/plantlife2.html

Search there for 'tea' and it'll tell you the names at least of the leaves that make tea (or some of the more common ones).

You can also use #help on discord for help about this sort of thing, and if you are feeling up to it, you could submit a help file on the topic of 'tea' (once you become the tea meister).

Good luck and happy tea.

NAUTA
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Nao

  • Posts: 1922
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2018, 04:39:16 AM »
'Help tea' actually redirects to 'help still'
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Riev

  • Posts: 5158
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2018, 09:20:21 AM »
The thing is, he WAS answered. Staff said that currently "brew" does not have the ability to custom craft (although that is outdated since it moved to the Crafting system, and while incorrect, they'll stick to their guns).

The sad fact is, right now, you cannot make your own custom tea. Regardless of skill, regardless of what you put in a teapot, only certain combinations work and the rest produce sludge.

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Armaddict

  • Posts: 6065
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2018, 11:01:27 AM »
'Get bias away from older players' is one of those things that sounds all correct and polite and great, but it really makes little sense until we come up with a randomized everything.

Experience is always going to be there, and the sliding shift of 'just make the game easier for everyone to try and equal it out' has ultimately been both unsuccessful and damaging.

Which isn't to say I'm against the idea, but I am against that particular line of reasoning to support it/using that argument to stave off criticism of it.
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stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2018, 11:13:18 AM »
The thing is, he WAS answered. Staff said that currently "brew" does not have the ability to custom craft (although that is outdated since it moved to the Crafting system, and while incorrect, they'll stick to their guns).

The sad fact is, right now, you cannot make your own custom tea. Regardless of skill, regardless of what you put in a teapot, only certain combinations work and the rest produce sludge.

I still don't know how to Identify a single tea IG. I don't know what plant to buy to make tea. I don't know what the Sdesc is. I've since making that post found out IG some descriptions of tea leaves and I have found out from helpers a tea that is not in the OLD help files (because it's not in the new help files).

But I still haven't successfully located a single tea from any sdesc in any shop.

That. is. fucking. ridiculous.
Meh

Riev

  • Posts: 5158
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2018, 12:04:12 PM »
The thing is, he WAS answered. Staff said that currently "brew" does not have the ability to custom craft (although that is outdated since it moved to the Crafting system, and while incorrect, they'll stick to their guns).

The sad fact is, right now, you cannot make your own custom tea. Regardless of skill, regardless of what you put in a teapot, only certain combinations work and the rest produce sludge.

I still don't know how to Identify a single tea IG. I don't know what plant to buy to make tea. I don't know what the Sdesc is. I've since making that post found out IG some descriptions of tea leaves and I have found out from helpers a tea that is not in the OLD help files (because it's not in the new help files).

But I still haven't successfully located a single tea from any sdesc in any shop.

That. is. fucking. ridiculous.

Unfortunately, you won't. You're railing against the dying light of a skill system that has only been replaced this year.

We used to have a BREW system, and that is how making tea and alcohol worked. But that system was old, outdated, and was a struggle, functionally. So the "teapot" and "still" method was introduced, but their use was pretty well guarded secrets, and there aren't many stills in the game.

So you can't just buy a cup of Watchman's Tea and analyze the liquid inside. It just isn't how the code works. Nobody is "purposefully" keeping this from you, but tea and alcohol brewing isn't based off the same crafting system that you might be used to, so not everyone really knows or understands it.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11798
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2018, 12:09:20 PM »
The thing is, he WAS answered. Staff said that currently "brew" does not have the ability to custom craft (although that is outdated since it moved to the Crafting system, and while incorrect, they'll stick to their guns).

The sad fact is, right now, you cannot make your own custom tea. Regardless of skill, regardless of what you put in a teapot, only certain combinations work and the rest produce sludge.

I still don't know how to Identify a single tea IG. I don't know what plant to buy to make tea. I don't know what the Sdesc is. I've since making that post found out IG some descriptions of tea leaves and I have found out from helpers a tea that is not in the OLD help files (because it's not in the new help files).

But I still haven't successfully located a single tea from any sdesc in any shop.

That. is. fucking. ridiculous.

Hi,

You may have missed the emails from myself and another helper. We have given you some syntax and help files as well as a freebie hint for how to make one of the most common teas (spiceweed).

It's an antiquated system but pretty straightforward once you have the proper ingredients. If you need more help please feel free to respond to the emails we sent.

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sleepyhead

  • Posts: 514
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2018, 12:24:54 PM »
Yeah, I've only made tea or seen tea made in front of me a handful of times. I THINK I may have made some, but it's been years and I've forgotten how I made it work. It's a pretty rarely used system and I wouldn't be surprised if the staff member that wouldn't answer your question didn't actually know anything about tea offhand, themselves. I don't think in this case it's an overcommitment to secrecy so much as a weird obscure corner of the code that few people have much recent experience with.

stoicreader

  • Posts: 135
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2018, 12:01:10 AM »
The thing is, he WAS answered. Staff said that currently "brew" does not have the ability to custom craft (although that is outdated since it moved to the Crafting system, and while incorrect, they'll stick to their guns).

The sad fact is, right now, you cannot make your own custom tea. Regardless of skill, regardless of what you put in a teapot, only certain combinations work and the rest produce sludge.

I still don't know how to Identify a single tea IG. I don't know what plant to buy to make tea. I don't know what the Sdesc is. I've since making that post found out IG some descriptions of tea leaves and I have found out from helpers a tea that is not in the OLD help files (because it's not in the new help files).

But I still haven't successfully located a single tea from any sdesc in any shop.

That. is. fucking. ridiculous.

Hi,

You may have missed the emails from myself and another helper. We have given you some syntax and help files as well as a freebie hint for how to make one of the most common teas (spiceweed).

It's an antiquated system but pretty straightforward once you have the proper ingredients. If you need more help please feel free to respond to the emails we sent.

Yes I did, Thank you. What's the Sdesc of spiceweed so I can find it?

Yeah, I've only made tea or seen tea made in front of me a handful of times. I THINK I may have made some, but it's been years and I've forgotten how I made it work. It's a pretty rarely used system and I wouldn't be surprised if the staff member that wouldn't answer your question didn't actually know anything about tea offhand, themselves. I don't think in this case it's an overcommitment to secrecy so much as a weird obscure corner of the code that few people have much recent experience with.

I feel better about this. Im sorry to make such a fuss.
Meh

James de Monet

  • Posts: 3325
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2018, 01:05:46 AM »
I don’t know the sdesc of any tea leaves offhand, but if you know the names (say, by looking at the list in the Silver Ginka), you might have some luck walking into an herbalist and trying “view spiceweed” (for example).  If they have it, you will look at it that way, and can then figure out which one it is.  It’s the logical equivalent of asking the shopkeeper if they have any spiceweed.
You know I think if James simply retitled his thread "Cheese" and apologized for his first post being off-topic, all problems would be solved.

cshoov

  • Posts: 60
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2018, 01:53:13 AM »
I don’t know the sdesc of any tea leaves offhand, but if you know the names (say, by looking at the list in the Silver Ginka), you might have some luck walking into an herbalist and trying “view spiceweed” (for example).  If they have it, you will look at it that way, and can then figure out which one it is.  It’s the logical equivalent of asking the shopkeeper if they have any spiceweed.

Technically, wouldn't you have to do "view spiceweed shopkeeper" using whatever keyword targets the shopkeeper? I think just doing "view spiceweed" will return "You don't see that person here" or something equivalently frustrating.

WithSprinkles

  • Posts: 397
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2018, 02:55:09 AM »
"list shopkeeper spiceweed"

I believe that is it, anyhow.

Nao

  • Posts: 1922
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2018, 03:15:26 AM »
I don’t know the sdesc of any tea leaves offhand, but if you know the names (say, by looking at the list in the Silver Ginka), you might have some luck walking into an herbalist and trying “view spiceweed” (for example).  If they have it, you will look at it that way, and can then figure out which one it is.  It’s the logical equivalent of asking the shopkeeper if they have any spiceweed.

Technically, wouldn't you have to do "view spiceweed shopkeeper" using whatever keyword targets the shopkeeper? I think just doing "view spiceweed" will return "You don't see that person here" or something equivalently frustrating.

I think you don't need to specify the shopkeeper, unless there are two of them in the room and you want the second one.
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manipura

  • Posts: 1523
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2018, 04:25:51 AM »
I don’t know the sdesc of any tea leaves offhand, but if you know the names (say, by looking at the list in the Silver Ginka), you might have some luck walking into an herbalist and trying “view spiceweed” (for example).  If they have it, you will look at it that way, and can then figure out which one it is.  It’s the logical equivalent of asking the shopkeeper if they have any spiceweed.

Technically, wouldn't you have to do "view spiceweed shopkeeper" using whatever keyword targets the shopkeeper? I think just doing "view spiceweed" will return "You don't see that person here" or something equivalently frustrating.

>view (keyword) allows you to look at the first item in a shopkeeper's list which has that particular keyword. 
If there is nothing in their list that matches the given keyword, the echo is something like "The such-and-such shopkeeper isn't carrying an item with that name."

If the shopkeeper has a number of items in their list with the same keyword, you can look at each by adding a number to the keyword.
 
>view keyword lets you look at the first item in the list with the given keyword
>view 2.keyword lets you look at the second item in the list with the given keyword
>view 3.keyword lets you look at the third item in the list with the given keyword



Hauwke

  • Posts: 1614
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2018, 04:58:30 AM »
You can also view #2 or view #17 to view the second and seventeenth items in their list.

manipura

  • Posts: 1523
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2018, 06:00:15 AM »
It should be mentioned that a stroll down Stonecarver's Road will not bring you to the Silver Ginka, as it no longer exists.  Sad news.

Also, the establishment in it's place does not serve the same items that were offered in the Silver Ginka (i.e. no tea).  Sadder news.

cshoov

  • Posts: 60
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2018, 11:52:30 AM »
Oops, yeah, I was mixing up view with list.

"list shopkeeper spiceweed"

I believe that is it, anyhow.
And this is correct; I mixed up the order. Basically, just pretend I didn't post anything :p

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2609
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2018, 01:54:45 PM »
It should be mentioned that a stroll down Stonecarver's Road will not bring you to the Silver Ginka, as it no longer exists.  Sad news.

Also, the establishment in it's place does not serve the same items that were offered in the Silver Ginka (i.e. no tea).  Sadder news.
The Desert Bloom does serve tea now...sometimes. Sometimes they don't have it loaded though after talking to Oryx? (I think that who it was) they should still have tea. Did you last check a while ago or recently?

manipura

  • Posts: 1523
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2018, 11:36:53 PM »
Last I checked was this morning, when I last posted in this thread.

I really liked the Silver Ginka and its offerings.

Cind

  • Posts: 1503
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2018, 04:37:34 AM »
It does seem like a coffee and tea shop would be around, selling teapots and cups as well. The rich should be all over that.

A good reason that they might not be is the weather in Zalanthas. Its been unseasonably cool here in Georgia, but we're starting not to drink so much coffee and tea anyway. I mean, we all ignore the heat, when we do things like drink tea, cook and purposefully go outside during high sun, but its a reason to throw around when we actually aren't figuring tea out because the syntax is unknown and the recipes almost impossible to learn by yourself.
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Delirium

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Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2018, 09:37:44 AM »
Tea was drunk in desert cultures. So was coffee.
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Nao

  • Posts: 1922
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2018, 10:11:14 AM »
It does seem like a coffee and tea shop would be around, selling teapots and cups as well. The rich should be all over that.
Teapots are for sale. I'm not sure about tea leaves.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2609
Re: IDEA: Transparent Ingredients
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2018, 05:06:17 PM »
Tea was drunk in desert cultures. So was coffee.
What do you mean was.
They still love the stuff.