Discussion of religion and politics on the gdb

[Veselka]

FYI, I do believe the reason this thread was brought up was because of a new player stumbling blindly into a thread and trying to contribute and getting feel-bads from responses.  I don't particularly care, but it -is- worth discussing a means of helping that not happen until they at least get acclimated to the tough, thuggish ruggish life that is GDB discussion.

I think JDM's suggestion of having the OOC discussion not be viewable by Guests is a simple solution. Most people who are going to register either just joined the Byn for the first time, or are giving the game enough of a shot to put in the effort to make an account.

[BadSkeelz]

My feelings are that if you're put off or disheartened by (relatively lowgrade) forum drama, I don't know how how you're going to enjoy this game. That first dose of real Armageddon harshness gave even me acute anxiety when I was a newbie.

[Veselka]

My feelings are that if you're put off or disheartened by (relatively lowgrade) forum drama, I don't know how how you're going to enjoy this game. That first dose of real Armageddon harshness gave even me acute anxiety when I was a newbie.

I'd rather have that shock come from the game itself (which can be even harsher than the forums, considering MCB) than a politics/religion thread in the OOC section of the forums.

[BadSkeelz]

The game can be way harsher, yes. That was my point.

I do have the admitted advantage of treating what goes on in the game way more seriously than whatever is posted on these boards. Especially in the "controversial" ooc threads. ( Why is this thread here, again?)

[nauta]

I'm going to ask for something a little unorthodox for this thread: please post your thoughts on this but do not argue against or with each other.  I think it would be more useful to hear feedback and opinions on the topic from a wide-range of viewpoints, and it is easier to state your opinion if you don't feel that someone will leap out of the margins and nitpick it or break it down and argue against it.  Also, let's avoid +1 or "me too", or "I agree with X".  Just state your opinion in as substantive of a way as possible.

Do you think we should have an informal agreement to not talk about politics and religion on the gdb as well?

[BadSkeelz]

Still in the wrong forum. I feel like it's only here to sucker in people who wouldn't normally bother looking at this thread (or the OOC forum in general).

I guess this forum does allow all Armageddon-related dicussion, but I dunno. Guess I'm still ruffled at not getting what I thought this would be.

Also bring back RAT

[Grapes]

I think you're wrong, Badskeelz, aside from wanting to bring back RAT.

[Large Hero]

It's disheartening to see people repeatedly ignoring Nauta's request.

[Fernandezj]

We should not have an informal agreement to not discuss religion or politics on the GDB, because that type of close-minded, refusal to exchange ideas, is part of a larger cultural problem that causes people to be unable to break out of their traditional modes of thinking.

Furthermore, the GDB doesn't seem to represent a large amount of actual game discussion in comparison to off-topic discussions - of which the top 10 are: idle complaints, things that make you happy, dating, music, politics, and voting for the game.

[Grapes]

The issue is, you express an unpopular political viewpoint and people start judging you ICly for that, player and staff alike.

EDIT: I'm not sure how much further I can boil this down, if you don't get it.

[Dalmeth]

This has been a perennial subject for James for at least ten years, and it's even been taken up in limited fashion before.

Fact is, the same people who like to inject their politics into every other topic are still here, and they still freak out when someone runs counter to those politics.

You can't negotiate with people who are just disagreeable for no damned reason.

[Grapes]

Yeah, except this was brought up by Nauta, your James related grudges do not apply. This is an obvious problem and it needs to stop, in my, not so humble opinion. I've already stated my reasons for believing it a bullshit reason to have influencing play. You're free to disagree, but it won't ever change the fact that I think you're full of shit.

[Dalmeth]

Yeah, except this was brought up by Nauta, your James related grudges do not apply. This is an obvious problem and it needs to stop, in my, not so humble opinion. I've already stated my reasons for believing it a bullshit reason to have influencing play. You're free to disagree, but it won't ever change the fact that I think you're full of shit.

Thanks for making my point. 

[BadSkeelz]

I do not feel like we should change our behavior, much less hold ourselves hostage to some communal pact, based on two reviews from people who didn't like the game anyway.

[seidhr]

From a staff perspective I have less than zero interest in supervising polite discourse (moderating) about religion, politics, or other controversial real life topics.  That's not why I staff the game.  It's not why we have these boards.

At the same time in a (totally fictional) perfect world where people can discuss these things maturely, I certainly don't have a problem with them using the GDB as a platform to do it, but when these threads (seemingly invariably) degenerate into name-calling and worse (in the real world) I just want to nuke the threads and sometimes even the entire OOC subforum from orbit.  I believe this is about where most of the staff stands with it.

The idea about having them be opt-in and people who aren't able to hack it without being bad citizens being summarily removed is a decent one, except for the part where we have more GDB administration to do.  That may be the lesser of the evils though.

Mostly, I just wish people who want to discuss that stuff would go do it on forums that are meant for that purpose.  Huffpost, Foxnews, heck even a more broad discussion forum like SomethingAwful.

[Rahnevyn]

My foremost concern is the image of our game and our community, which in large part comes from the GDB. There have been far more than just one or two bad reviews that paint our community in a negative light. It's been a consistent theme. I'll pull some direct quotes to make my point:

Community: Really, really unwelcoming unless you have a friend in the mix. They are toxic and hostile on the forums...

Skip the general discussion board, it was always a craphole and it's only fermented with time.

Trying to ask for help was a nightmare. Between ... the unfriendly forum and the unresponsive live helper chat I could not get a word in edgewise. My introduction to the community was piss-poor and frankly I didn't expect it to get better than that.

I would suggest that you play Armageddon if you are interested in the setting but avoid the GDB (general discussion board)...

Beyond that, the discussion boards of the MUD are full of many an obstinate opinion and passionate argument, both concerning the MUD and not. There are a number of players that come off as bitter and/or condescending, which can be off-putting to a newer player.

The forums are terrifying and toxic. Even posting a simple question or opinion and you are likely going to get treated like the dumbest person ever. Staff will sometimes lock a threat but that is not really fixing the hostile environment.

I would not recommend visiting either of the games forums... The best way to enjoy ArmageddonMUD, is not to expose yourself to the toxicity in the community, and to avoid engaging with players outside the scope of the game whenever possible.

I have a lot more fun when I'm not actively reading the forums or trying to engage with the community.

... I could keep going, but I'll stop there before I get any more depressed. Suffice to say this was by no means an exhaustive list.

In short, be assholes all you want, but keep it inside the game. Outside the game, we really need to think about how we interact with each other and what that says about us as a whole. I think it really starts with fixing the GDB. There are other places you can discuss these topics if you would like. If someone wants to make an "Armageddon Players Debate Life" Facebook group where you can all flame each other to your hearts' content, I highly encourage it. But here, on the official forum for our game, those sorts of topics seem to be doing more damage than they do good. Personally, I'd like to see more lively and constructive discussion about Armageddon the game itself here on the forum, and less use of the forums as a platform for debates unrelated to the game.

The perception issue isn't as simple to dismiss as saying "if you don't like those topics, don't read them." New players won't know which threads they would prefer they had ignored until they already read them. The "recent posts" feature on the GDB will show those threads regardless. They might even see a nice reply from someone in one subforum and then view that player's posts to see them flaming somebody else in a politics thread. The very presence of these topics on the boards implies some level of acceptance by our staff and moderators, when in reality, I don't think any of us want to be moderating these sorts of discussions at all. We'd rather be turning that energy toward the game. Since we aren't moderating closely, when things turn sour and ugly they tend to stay that way for a while, and that is what starts to create the bad perception.

Not discussing political topics on the GDB is not the entire solution, but I do believe it is a good start. Overall, we need to do more to create a positive atmosphere. When creating or replying to topics anywhere on the forum, I would ask you all to keep one thing in mind: are we creating an environment where our players feel welcome to contribute and ask questions, or are turning them away and making them wish they didn't engage at all?

[Miggy]

Personally, I come to Armageddon to relax and play the game. This has been my outlet from the real world for many years. I post very little on the forums unless it is to ask a question or something. It is difficult for many people to separate themselves from RL as it is, and knowing someone's opinion can create hostility that can easily transfer to the game. I'm a vote for not having political or religious discussion (or any other hot button issues that can tee people off) on the Armageddon forum. As some have pointed out, there are many other outlets for that sort of thing.

[ale six]

The forums lately feel like they're in the worst place I've ever seen them. There are not a lot of new threads in the actual game forums - why is that? I wonder if, as some has said, people are taking one look at what is being posted (which seems to be mainly in the OOC section), seeing how we discuss that stuff, and noping right out.

I'm reminded of this pub in Berlin I used to live near. Great food, loved the bartender; he was amazing conversation, super friendly. But the crowd that frequented the place was not very welcoming at all. They would be shout at each other, scream, howl, pound the table, gesture wildly, pull strangers into their arguments and so on. I don't think they were violent folks, just... German.  It wasn't just one group of people, either. It was just kinda how the place was. I sometimes heard them arguing about foreigners, so I didn't really want to try and participate in my broken German with people who might already judge me. Eventually I stopped going by myself, and then altogether.

So why bring up this little anecdote? I guess I just wanted to make a point that you can have a really good product (which Armageddon is), and still turn people away because of how it's perceived (in our case, the forums, and maybe this newfangled Discord thing). Let's not do that.

I'm a pretty private person anyway, so I'm not super interested in sharing my opinions on OOC politics or religion or whatever things with fellow gamers, but I'm interested in sharing my opinion on the GAME plenty with people who can be polite and insightful about it. Let's do more of that on the forum.

PS: No more 300-page long sprawling "A Random Thought" threads, please. Soooooo glad those are gone. Keep discussion organized!

[WanderingOoze]

PS: No more 300-page long sprawling "A Random Thought" threads, please. Soooooo glad those are gone. Keep discussion organized!

That's what Discord is for now 

[James de Monet]

This has been a perennial subject for James for at least ten years, and it's even been taken up in limited fashion before.

Me?  How did this become about me?  I don't actually have anything invested in the idea, I was just chiming with a possible solution to the problem posed by the OP (Nauta).

[Melkor]

Everyone, lets follow OP's rule of not responding to one another. Its a pretty simple rule that is not being observed.

So, from what I can tell, the most legitimate reason for banning troublesome topics on the GDB is that it stokes confrontation, which might be unpalatable for new players.

In my opinion, if a person cannot even witness a heated discussion without feeling discomfort, I do not think that such a person is mature enough to handle the game (as silly as that sounds).

I've seen many conversations on the GDB turn caustic, even when not discussing religion, politics, or any other taboo topics. It seems to me that this game might just be one that appeals to people who relish conflict.

This community is pretty cool. Thats why I still post. If people want a community that is all puppies and rainbows 24/7, I don't think they should look here. If people want a community of interesting, diverse, intelligent people who sometimes butt heads... Welcome to the GDB.

[ale six]

I don't think we should try and judge people as too immature or too sensitive or whatever to play Armageddon simply because they don't approach the forums with the same attitude they do the game. The game and the GDB are different places. What's goes in one shouldn't necessarily go in the other.

Surely it isn't a stretch to say that some people may enjoy roleplaying in a harsh, gritty, unfriendly IC setting yet still appreciate a supportive, open, friendly OOC community.

The objection is not that we need to better accomodate people with too-sensitive sensibilities. The objection is that it's not a good look for our community, and it turns people away who would otherwise engage.

[Large Hero]

People approaching the GDB and the Armageddon OOC community with the same attitude they do the game is one of the worst things about our community.   

The past 10 years or so of the Armageddon community has seen a lot of distrust and hostility. I'm pretty tired of it. I've never really been a target of it, but just seeing people inflict it on each other has led to me taking breaks from the game. At times I've wondered whether I should play the game at all, because I often don't feel aligned with the negative values the community seems to embrace.

I don't think the GDB being a rough, caustic place is a badge of honor we should be proud of.

I wish we'd all start being kinder and more forgiving with each other.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm going to break Nauta's rule about not replying again because I think dialogues are more useful for understanding that shouting alone in to the ether. It's also just how my mind works.

The forums lately feel like they're in the worst place I've ever seen them. There are not a lot of new threads in the actual game forums - why is that? I wonder if, as some has said, people are taking one look at what is being posted (which seems to be mainly in the OOC section), seeing how we discuss that stuff, and noping right out.
[...]

I'm a pretty private person anyway, so I'm not super interested in sharing my opinions on OOC politics or religion or whatever things with fellow gamers, but I'm interested in sharing my opinion on the GAME plenty with people who can be polite and insightful about it. Let's do more of that on the forum.

PS: No more 300-page long sprawling "A Random Thought" threads, please. Soooooo glad those are gone. Keep discussion organized!

As I said before, I believe the forums are where they are now due in large part to the closure of the Random Armageddon Thoughts thread. It was a sprawling, incoherent mass when viewed as a whole, yes. But in real time it was a source of stimulation and inspiration that could be reviewed far more easily than Discord.

If our goal of the forums is to inspire Armageddon play, Discord is a terrible place for it. Setting aside how often we take it juvenile or offtopic, Discord discussion just moves too fast. If you're not in the channel at the time of the discussion, you miss it. Even if you're tagged with @ in the discussion, getting back to that point is a lot harder than it should be. Discord's a great place to hang out and I'm glad we have it, but it is not a replacement for the forums or a Random Armageddon Thoughts thread.

The RAT created a written record where posters could have mini-conversations on their own time, not in real time. If the topic was interesting enough, it could and would get split off in to new threads. Or inspire someone to just create one of their own because they want to further the discussion. I did that plenty of times.

The RAT is also a useful place to test the waters and see what CAN be discussed. The rules are pretty strict for what can and cannot be talked about relating to the game. RAT let us test the boundaries and then start a new thread if it looked like we could get away with stating that crimcode is turned off at night, for example.

Discord doesn't have the same impetus for thread creation. You talk about something, agree/disagree, and move on. The conversation is over, lost to time.

Organized discussion is great but you need someplace to germinate ideas. RAT provided that place. I believe if we looked at the numbers, the amount of Armageddon-related threads and postings slowed down significantly with the RAT's closure. Discord may have further accelerated the shift away from the forums.

As the Armageddon-side of the forums withers, the OOC side becomes more prominent. I'm not sure it's more active (although I wouldn't be surprised if our politics thread of today is bigger than ones in the past, due to a more fractious political climate) but there's less Armageddon posting to outweigh it.

[RogueGunslinger]

If you think people are complaining about this community being toxic because of politics and religion threads, you'd be dead wrong. Most of Arm's drama, what most of those quoted reviews are talking about, has been centered around the staff and players vision of the game and forums, and where they clash.

THIS THREAD ITSELF is a prime example of the easily palatable bickering that tends to go back and forth on these forums. This is the sort of discourse those quotes are talking about. The snark, contempt and ambivalence are all here right now and we're not discussing politics or religion at all.

I honestly think we spend too much time discussing meta and rule bullshit instead of trying to think up ways to be creative and make fun for others in the game.