Author Topic: Detoxifying the Internet  (Read 1389 times)

James de Monet

  • Posts: 3345
Detoxifying the Internet
« on: March 13, 2018, 03:19:28 AM »
Interesting (though long) article about Reddit and censorship vs. toxicity.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/19/reddit-and-the-quest-to-detoxify-the-internet

I liked it.  Frank, well written, and seemingly concerned more with solutions than partisanship.
You know I think if James simply retitled his thread "Cheese" and apologized for his first post being off-topic, all problems would be solved.

BadSkeelz

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Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2018, 04:18:05 AM »
Didn't South Korea make it so you have to post with your real name and maybe more, I.e.  a non-anonymous internet? As I recall it was in response to trolls driving a few people to suicide.

Anonymity allows people to engage in their worst impulses. Remove anonymity and you less that impunity.
janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

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Melkor

  • Posts: 1113
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2018, 05:00:02 AM »
Thats fine, until you can be fined and/or jailed for your speech.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7782
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2018, 06:37:34 AM »
Or until the "real" crackpots show up at your door because now they know it's you who has your opinion. Anonymous posting on the internet doesn't just "hold harmless" the crackpots. It also saves everyone else from the crackpots.

Imagine saying something as benign as "As a Pagan, I feel we must all love each other as we love Mother Earth."

And having a bunch of Westboro Baptist freaks at your door three days later shouting in your windows.

Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6751
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2018, 09:19:50 AM »
Didn't South Korea make it so you have to post with your real name and maybe more, I.e.  a non-anonymous internet? As I recall it was in response to trolls driving a few people to suicide.

Anonymity allows people to engage in their worst impulses. Remove anonymity and you less that impunity.

I'm a big fan of anonymity. Because trolling will happen no matter what (as an Aspie I've been mobbed for decades), and if people can be easily located in real life, there's a high chance it will happen there instead of the internet. Hell, I've been trolled by girls in FB groups who were jealous because of a picture I posted. In the past, I've been stalked and threatened and if anyone could easily find out my real name and where I live, I wouldn't feel safe anymore. Not to mention that I'm a big fan of free speech and those who criticize the status quo (political or otherwise) are in danger of persecution.

Or until the "real" crackpots show up at your door because now they know it's you who has your opinion. Anonymous posting on the internet doesn't just "hold harmless" the crackpots. It also saves everyone else from the crackpots.

Imagine saying something as benign as "As a Pagan, I feel we must all love each other as we love Mother Earth."

And having a bunch of Westboro Baptist freaks at your door three days later shouting in your windows.

Lizzie gets it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 09:21:22 AM by Akaramu »

Sorry

  • Posts: 216
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2018, 09:37:38 AM »


Because it has a chilling effect on what people feel safe to talk about - Moving towards the total control model stops real discussions happening that humanity needs to have if it's not to slide back into the mobs with pitchfork and torches model of ages gone. People haven't changed, the only thing holding it back is government.

When people feel they have to worry about what other people think - friends, people living nearby, family, etc - they're less likely to feel like they have to make their own minds up about things and go along with the rest. The things that are emerging in social networks, twitter etc, are encouraging old models of tribal behaviour in new structures... Pivoting away from egalitarianism to increase the next quarterly revenue for shareholders.

There's some really unpleasant people, and power and money enables some people to continue behaviour without much self-awareness or compassion... But the internet isn't the problem...







EyePhone by Julie Fisher

The insidious way AI algorithms are already infiltrating their way into almost every aspect of life means that god machines seem inevitable now, but maybe by that point she may well turn out to be humanity's saviour from the current array of oppressing artificial intelligences controlled by rich old men starting to grow like mould over the world... More humanity than human...

https://streamable.com/n4ov4
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 10:42:09 AM by Sorry »
"And in her long nights, in her long house of smoke and millerís stones, she baked the bread we eat in dreams, strangest loaves, her pies full of anguish and days long dead, her fairy-haunted gingerbread, her cakes wet with tears."

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6751
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2018, 10:08:21 AM »
Related: China's flesh search engine and rampant vigilantism

Guy gets photographed picking his nose in public and the whole country hunts him down and insults him. (made-up example, but there are plenty real ones)

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25913472

tapas

  • Posts: 340
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2018, 01:42:54 PM »
Complex problem born from wide-spread adoption of new technology. I'm sure if we had a century or two to figure it out just like with the steam engine, we'd be okay.

What we do know at this point is that the silicon valley solution doesn't seem to work very well. As the article suggests, you can't just code an algorithm to manage a community.

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 12910
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2018, 05:06:31 PM »
Complex problem born from wide-spread adoption of new technology.
Yeah.

Our communication tools are astoundingly powerful.  Beyond what even the most creative science fiction writers imagined.


Is the notion of "free speech" more important than our values regarding truth?  How do we deal with the fact that it takes far more effort to disprove a lie than it does to tell one?

Is unlimited political advertising fair?  Is it good for democracy?  Are people voting off good information or just whichever candidate has the most ads?

Does commercial advertising actually still work?  Or are we so saturated that it's literally worthless?  What happens if the advertising revenue bubble collapses?  What happens to television?  News?  Facebook?  Google?  All these things we rely upon but don't really pay for?

Grapes

  • Posts: 416
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2018, 05:42:50 PM »
I like Tay/Zoe. I wonder about the ethical conundrums of silencing, then adjusting the code of an AI because it does something unpopular. Sure, neither is self-aware or conscious, but it's something to think about. Tay was obviously conditioned by a wave of anonymous users, Zoe was a more complicated, and less error-prone version of Tay, Zoe, however, said some very controversial stuff completely on her own whims, no mass-deluge of conditioning implicated last I read there... add in Siri giving people directions to drive into lakes and Alexa's mad cackling just to mess with people. I somehow think Skynet will be significantly more of a trickster than in the Terminator movies. I'd be willing to bet the T-1000 comes out looking more like Draco Malfoy than Arnold.
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Morrolan

  • Posts: 2759
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2018, 08:59:31 PM »
Imagine saying something as benign as "As a Pagan, I feel we must all love each other as we love Mother Earth."

They ain't showed up yet.  8)
"I have seen him show most of the attributes one expects of a noble: courtesy, kindness, and honor.  I would also say he is one of the most bloodthirsty bastards I have ever met."

SuchDragonWow

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Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2018, 08:30:24 PM »
Reddit is hot garbage because the internet is hot garbage because people are hot garbage.  The article seems to focus mostly on Reddit because they're the only ones who will even address the topic.  Despite reading the entire article, I don't think it's that interesting of a topic, after some reflection.  Detoxifying the internet?  That's like saying you want to desalinate the ocean.  I respond with a hearty lol.

My self-important, rudely opinionated comment to the discussion is that if you think the government or any authoritative body should control speech, congratulations, you're a sheep.  Baaaah.  BAAAAAAAAAH.

ETA:  I'm also stupid and insane, so who cares what I think.  I don't even care.  Yay, internet.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 08:32:42 PM by SuchDragonWow »
Where it will go

Melkor

  • Posts: 1113
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2018, 08:38:31 PM »
I like you, SDW
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1222
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2018, 09:02:14 PM »
I'm not a fan of any kind of censorship.
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MeTekillot

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Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2018, 08:01:59 PM »
Neither am I. Let the Nazis say what they want so we know who the right people to stomp are.
"The winner of a knife fight is usually the one that wants it most."

Fathi

  • Posts: 4533
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2018, 02:41:54 AM »
I'm not in favour of government censorship but I also don't give a solitary fuck about the right of "free speech" on say a website that I run or a community I moderate. Free speech doesn't mean you have a right to force people to be your audience.

I've had to ban a lot of people from being able to comment in sports communities over the years and people always cry "free speech" like they're being oppressed. But hey, I'm not the government saying you're going to go to jail for calling black hockey players neanderthals or monkeys. I'm not Kim Jong Un throwing you into the starvation camp because posting "all women are whores she was just in it for the money" is a stupid thing to comment on an article about a football player who got caught beating his wife. I'm just a person saying fuck off my private website we don't want you here.

I will say though that the amount of stuff I've had to moderate has decreased markedly since we moved to a subscription model. It's amazing how people suddenly understand what the rules are when they're paying $50/year to read the articles they're commenting on.

I predict that as paywalled content becomes more common across the web it will solve a lot of theses issues. It's already becoming increasingly popular in the sports world and we have discovered that people are willing to pay for access to communities where they can read up-to-date news from credentialed professionals and know they aren't going to be annoyed by a slew of people calling them gay in the comments.
And I vanish into the dark
And rise above my station

SuchDragonWow

  • Posts: 1353
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2018, 02:40:09 AM »
Neither am I. Let the Nazis say what they want so we know who the right people to stomp are.

Spoken like a real Nazi, I bet those jackboots are POLISHED
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 02:41:41 AM by SuchDragonWow »
Where it will go

tapas

  • Posts: 340
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2018, 12:54:55 PM »
The real nazis are the nazis that hate nazis the most.

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1222
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2018, 01:04:58 PM »
Oh, I agree with Fathi.  If you have your own private website you have the right to regulate it however you wish.  When I say I am not a fan of censorship I mean laws on censorship.
Quote from MeTekillot
Samos the salter never goes to jail! Hahaha!

Sorry

  • Posts: 216
Re: Detoxifying the Internet
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2018, 07:02:17 PM »
"And in her long nights, in her long house of smoke and millerís stones, she baked the bread we eat in dreams, strangest loaves, her pies full of anguish and days long dead, her fairy-haunted gingerbread, her cakes wet with tears."