Author Topic: Death Reports: Closure to prevent players walking away from a game they love.  (Read 4518 times)

Dracul

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Veselka

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Though a well thought out idea, i'm not a fan. The lack of closure from death is part of what is appealing to me about the game. That uncertainty, the not knowing, the reincarnation into a new body with no memory of your 'past lives' if you want to call it that. That mystery of the unknowable is very appealing to me, and part of what makes death so shocking and final. No more information, no explanation. Just like RL.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Grapes

  • Posts: 416
I like to make sure whoever I'm going to PK knows the why of it before it happens. Sure, it significantly reduces my possibility of success, as well as plausible deniability, but I don't like to just ding somebody with no warning, just a personal preference.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

MarshallDFX

  • Posts: 1531
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already.

I think that's more or less my point.  Staff are the #1 people who could make a difference with an upset player.  If they are the only ones who rigourously enforce a 'zero ooc' standard, they've just handcuffed themselves.

I think player retention and understanding is a greater good here.

Dar

  • Posts: 1318
I'm completely for it. But I'm one of those weird people who thinks that other players will be more then fine playing with me, even if I was the one who killed their previous character two days ago. I still think that. I have faith in humanity! The sheer enjoyment of the game will increase considerably if such a feature was allowed.

At best, if you prefer you can put in a delay depending on karma. 0 karma 1 year delay. 1 karma 6 months delay. 2 karma:3 months. 3 karma:no delay. If a 3 karma player is creating revenge characters, then something is inherently wrong with the whole system.


I truly truly truly think that it should be mandatory "mandatory" to send a PK report for every PK you do, with an explanation on what's going on.  You can make it a matter of having the report separated into two sections.  The PK report and "what would you like us to send to the dead character's player?" And leave it up to the killer to choose what to send and what not to.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8384
Why don't PKd people just make a new character, join the clan of their killer, then hit up the player on your instannt messenger of choice to find out why?

/s
janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Miradus: He's not some weird mental abomination. He's just a guy on the internet.

BadSkeelz

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More seriously I doubt knowing why you died will help act as a balm. It's usually going to be "because it was easy and solved my problem with you."

You should definitely always find a pk report after a kill. But most reasons are going to be pretty mundane or petty.
janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Miradus: He's not some weird mental abomination. He's just a guy on the internet.

tapas

  • Posts: 294
I get angry when I trust players not to pull weak bullshit and they do it anyways. And I've encountered some exceptionally putrid bullshit from players I expected better from. It's been so bad that it has affected how I play the game and which roles I'm willing to play.

I don't particularly care for whatever ic reasoning they had for it. It's easy to manufacture a reason out of thin air anyways.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 11:20:37 PM by tapas »

Grapes

  • Posts: 416
I get angry when I trust players not to pull weak bullshit and they do it anyways. And I've encountered some exceptionally putrid bullshit from players I expected better from. It's been so bad that it has affected how I play the game and which roles I'm willing to play.

I don't particularly care for whatever ic reasoning they had for it. It's easy to manufacture a reason out of thin air anyways.

... I know that feel.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

tapas

  • Posts: 294
To answer Shaleah directly. It's got nothing to do closure and everything to do with shattered trust.

Feco

  • Posts: 1920
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

I've been PKd more than once, without visible emotes to me, after being KOd by something else that didn't kill my PC, which I imagine is the shittiest way to go.  Even that isn't really more awful than a normal character death.  It just isn't immediately satisfying or something.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 07:29:27 AM by Feco »
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Narana

  • Posts: 25
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already. Wait a year.

Also if you are crushed by the death of your PC so much that you are considering ragequit, take a break, you'll be back.

I waited a year, then asked. Was basically told 'Sorry admin were not involved with your pc's death'

Was really the last straw for me. Specially since according to the help files everyone has to submit a reason for why they kill someone, either before or after.
Counting all the assholes in the room...

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Khorm

  • Posts: 373
I think that not being able to figure out the who/why of how my characters died is part of the intrigue of the game. I don't like feeling like I need to be omniscient about details.

Of course it pisses me off sometimes, and I've had instances where it left such a sour taste in my mouth that I left the game for weeks, months, or years. At the end of the day it adds to the mystique of the game, it adds to the story of a character that I did or did not like, and I think it would cheapen the experience of the game if I were to get an email that said, "Amos killed you because he saw you fucking that baby in an alleyway."

Maybe rage quits are not such a bad thing. I generally get pretty invested in my characters after they've gone on for about 10 days worth of play. It's a relationship of sorts, and just like having a shitty breakup - it's probably healthy to take a step back and process the things that are going on. Even closure in that sort of scenario is just a bandaid on a wound that requires staples.
Her head is average.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8384
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already. Wait a year.

Also if you are crushed by the death of your PC so much that you are considering ragequit, take a break, you'll be back.

I waited a year, then asked. Was basically told 'Sorry admin were not involved with your pc's death'

Was really the last straw for me. Specially since according to the help files everyone has to submit a reason for why they kill someone, either before or after.

That just means you were not killed at admin instigation. Even if they have a PK report detailing why your character was killed they cannot readily share it. It's a confidential communication between a player other than you and staff. That your character is the central subject is beside the point.


Maybe we need a "Why did you kill me?" Thread operating under even more stringent oversight than the "Whatever happened to?" thread. I don't think a lot of you would like what you're going to hear, though.
janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Miradus: He's not some weird mental abomination. He's just a guy on the internet.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 9825
There is too much ooc sharing in our community already. Wait a year.

Also if you are crushed by the death of your PC so much that you are considering ragequit, take a break, you'll be back.

I waited a year, then asked. Was basically told 'Sorry admin were not involved with your pc's death'

Was really the last straw for me. Specially since according to the help files everyone has to submit a reason for why they kill someone, either before or after.
Nah son. You can kill anyone you want, really. I make a point to merc link-dead people with decent gear if they stay out at night. Rules of nature.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 9825
If you're a sponsored role or have risen to sponsored role influence on the game world, you need to report all your PKs, but you also need to report everything else you do, too.

Fathi

  • Posts: 4533
I think if you are feeling that frustrated about a PC's death you should reach out to your staff on an individual basis. I don't really think a blanket policy where this is available for every death is tenable for the reasons other folks have already outlined. It's a neat idea and presented really well, but I'm not sure how much it'd actually help with closure or people quitting.

It really sucks when you lose a PC to something that seems surprising and shitty, we've all been there. But in my personal experience finding out why my PC was killed didn't make me feel any better. I heard the full story on my very next PC when a templar told her all about it. And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.
And I vanish into the dark
And rise above my station

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7724
I think if you are feeling that frustrated about a PC's death you should reach out to your staff on an individual basis. I don't really think a blanket policy where this is available for every death is tenable for the reasons other folks have already outlined. It's a neat idea and presented really well, but I'm not sure how much it'd actually help with closure or people quitting.

It really sucks when you lose a PC to something that seems surprising and shitty, we've all been there. But in my personal experience finding out why my PC was killed didn't make me feel any better. I heard the full story on my very next PC when a templar told her all about it. And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

Amen.

Finding out why, for me, is something fun after years have passed. But it is never a need. Sometimes I feel a death was ridiculously executed (pun not intended) and I'll send a request to staff asking them to verify that it was kosher. Other than that, I EXPECT my characters to all get killed. I HOPE they'll be assassinated rather than killed by carru #7,492,882. I HOPE I get to see something more entertaining than "the hooded figure brutally wounds you, you black out, and mantishead."  I've experienced some amazingly entertaining deaths, and still didn't know WHY they killed my character til years later.

I also have had some really unimpressive deaths, but knew why, and was fine with the reason, just not thrilled with the methodology.

Regardless, whatever report someone sends to the staff about their actions, is frankly no one else's business. The only thing you "need" to know, if you have a problem with a character death, was whether or not it was a legitimate kill. In other words - it wasn't just a player-griefer action. That's really all you "need" to know. The whys and whos aren't yours to know unless you discover it ICly. If you find out oocly through the grapevine, then you find out. And even then, you only find out whatever someone else chooses to tell you. They might be 100% accurate. They might be leaving something out. They might be lying to you, and their logs might be edited, or so one-sided that they can't even see what "really" happened behind the scenes. But it's not the staff's responsibility to tell you, nor should it be.
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Is Friday

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I think if you are feeling that frustrated about a PC's death you should reach out to your staff on an individual basis. I don't really think a blanket policy where this is available for every death is tenable for the reasons other folks have already outlined. It's a neat idea and presented really well, but I'm not sure how much it'd actually help with closure or people quitting.

It really sucks when you lose a PC to something that seems surprising and shitty, we've all been there. But in my personal experience finding out why my PC was killed didn't make me feel any better. I heard the full story on my very next PC when a templar told her all about it. And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.
Best Post 2018.

Sig'd.
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

tapas

  • Posts: 294
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.

Riev

  • Posts: 5160
I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.

I'd think of it more like "I killed them because they were on MY TURF" despite there being NPCs and vNPCs on "their turf" all the time, but they use it as an excuse to end the life of a PC "for funsies".

However. This doesn't happen as often as people seem to suggest. That it does at all, is a travesty, but its not some rampant thing. Sometimes its been good to know why I got PK'd, even if it was for something stupid. Its not about "but they didn't emote so its their fault", its that sometimes I want to know why my ex-Bynner turned Salarri Aide just got one-prompt murdered at the rock-seller shop, after my boss wanted to know the price of granite, despite doing nothing, and it being the middle of the day. Its nice to know that "Well Salarr was refusing to pay powerful people the respect they deserved, and unfortunately you were a piece in that game". It sucks, but at least it wasn't a "hehhahaah I'm such good twinks, this PC knows nothing. backstab huhuhuhuh"
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

tapas

  • Posts: 294
I'd care less about an assassination. It's the "Come here so I can murder you." garbage that I have zero interest in playing around. And just generally sucks the fun out of any social role.

Melkor

  • Posts: 1113
I think if you are feeling that frustrated about a PC's death you should reach out to your staff on an individual basis. I don't really think a blanket policy where this is available for every death is tenable for the reasons other folks have already outlined. It's a neat idea and presented really well, but I'm not sure how much it'd actually help with closure or people quitting.

It really sucks when you lose a PC to something that seems surprising and shitty, we've all been there. But in my personal experience finding out why my PC was killed didn't make me feel any better. I heard the full story on my very next PC when a templar told her all about it. And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

This.

I think we should foster emotional maturity amongst the playerbase that can handle the rough times playing this game, rather than emotional dependency.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
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MeTekillot

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I don't understand what would constitute "weak bullshit."

Some players just arn't interested in being fodder for someone else's power fantasy.
Some players are playing the wrong fucking game, lmao

Veselka

  • Posts: 731
I think something Players perhaps don't understand sometimes, too, is...When another person finds out you are trying to have them killed, or 'mentioned' to someone else that you would be 'happy to see them dead', well...That other person might be more industrious, know more people, and otherwise more easily take care of you first.

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal -- The last two in particular lead to almost more death than straight Murder. I wouldn't be happy playing this game if that weren't the case. And closure is a fickle friend at best...Sometimes the journey is the most important part, and the 'complete story' on ArmageddonMUD doesn't always count for much.

To me -- It isn't a bad PC death that is going to push a player away from the game. Sure, it might push some away, if not for a while, then I suppose forever. I know a couple where that is the case, they moved on and then just never had the time to think about the game again. Who knows, they may come back in 5-10 years when they have a kid and have downtime (!).

What I see turning players off the most was toxic player/staff relationships, and simply outgrowing the game. The game only offers so much, and it isn't going to be exactly what every Player wants it to be. There will be shortcomings for one person that are strengths to another person. With that inability to mold it into the shape you want it to be...Yeah. After a certain amount of years, a certain amount of guff taken from Staff, a certain amount of this and that...People simply move on, find other hobbies to enjoy, get married, have kids, and have a life without ArmageddonMUD. I think that's perfectly fine.

The Valenkudos is a great way to hook people back in that simply drifted away -- Maybe they're looking for a game and simply forgot about ArmageddonMUD and how much fun it could be. Those kinds of players I think do well here. But the ones that moved on for semi-legitimate reasons? They may never return, and that's okay.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 04:46:00 PM by Veselka »
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant