Author Topic: Why is monogamy so common?  (Read 3040 times)

Hauwke

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #100 on: December 13, 2017, 04:48:37 PM »
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delirium, do you ever engage npcs in game as if they have group families? I always fancied some of the house workers that are NPCs as being related, depending on the appearance of the NPCs. Some of the house NPcs look similar so I always imagine them as part of a family unit, either as parent child or a imagine different types of relationships for them. I don't however think these are in any way cannon for the game.

I -sometimes- do the same thing, though in fairness I havent really played a whole lot amongst the various clans but have seen a good number of the NPC's in the various HQ's. I like to think to myself that a lot of the House guards are related. You dont really get to a position like that through the singular act of being really, really good at your job, though it is possible. No, you get your job because thats what your father did, and his mother before that and her uncle before her.

This is a world where generally, you follow in your parents footsteps in a very little way, at least to me anyway, in that Father = farmer? Guess what? Kid = farmer also.

Harmless

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #101 on: December 13, 2017, 05:35:06 PM »
once had a long lived PC in a polygamous relationship triangle/quadrangle. It was an interesting run, for sure, and there were both good sides and bad sides to the equation as my character saw it.

I won't spoil how things ended, but in some ways the polygamous arrangement ended up benefiting everyone, in a harsh world where survival is a constant goal.

Other times, things were more "monogamous" but only because a third person wasn't around or willing to enter into the arrangement. Exclusivity isn't really a concept to most of my PCs; anyone can die at any moment, so investing emotions or resources fully into one person never seemed wise to any of my PCs. However, because I rarely pursue relationships with my characters in the first place as a driving storyline, it often doesn't have the chance to expand to the point of dedicated, stable polygamous arrangements.
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Molten Heart

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #102 on: December 13, 2017, 05:39:20 PM »
Is it monogamy if there are no romantic/sexual relationships?

nauta

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #103 on: December 13, 2017, 05:42:01 PM »
Is it monogamy if there are no romantic/sexual relationships?

There aren't many relationships to choose from left-over, other than best buddies, at least among commoners, for there is no legal or cultural significance to a relationship with just one person.  But if monogamy is some relationship that is not romantic/sexual between two people, then you could say the First Trooper and the Sergeant are monogamous!  ;D
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Lizzie

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #104 on: December 13, 2017, 06:06:24 PM »
Is it monogamy if there are no romantic/sexual relationships?

There aren't many relationships to choose from left-over, other than best buddies, at least among commoners, for there is no legal or cultural significance to a relationship with just one person.  But if monogamy is some relationship that is not romantic/sexual between two people, then you could say the First Trooper and the Sergeant are monogamous!  ;D

There is such a thing as platonic love; it is absolutely valid, and not merely a "best buddies" type of thing. It is a spiritual romance; a marriage of the spirit that doesn't require or involve sexual desire. I've seen it in the game, though it's not common. I imagine most players don't really think about the option much, because it's not well-understood in real life either.
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Delirium

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #105 on: December 13, 2017, 06:25:19 PM »
I engage vNPCs, for sure. I try not to make any assumptions about NPCs. I've gotten scolded for taking my understanding of an NPC's personality and running with it to include in my RP; evidently that is not a thing that is cool to do unless you "own" the NPC (i.e. they're your personal guard, etc).

Generally a thing I try to do that I think might be helpful is to just remember how big the world is and that PCs are in the minority.

There's no reason you can't include the virtual world to make things feel bigger, more fleshed out, more real.

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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1375
Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2017, 06:39:20 PM »
Relationships in the game are odd, I havent been in ny particularly long lasting ones IG, but thats mostly because I dont seek it out anymore, for awhile I was, but got bored with it in some ways I suppose.

Personally, I think that most Zalanthans would be smart enough to understand the basic idea that: More people in a relationship = more people to care for the young, and also to care for me if I am for some reason incapacitated for a day or two. They would also be smart enough to keep the very old around as a source of wisdom at the very least, its a thing that happened through out a whole bunch of Earth-human history, we kept the elderly around as early as the days where we were cavemen and cavewomen.

Most Zalanthan-humans, however would in my mind at least, be untrusting enough that the great majority of multi-people relationships would be carefully laid out so that each person has the least amount of chance to get sick, and the least amount of chance to be backstabbed by the other people.

These are still humans we are talking about, basic survival is a thing in their mind. If its not, are they really human at that point?

Namino

  • Posts: 136
Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #107 on: December 13, 2017, 07:46:44 PM »

Actually, what is going on, is that I am a disease ecologist that spent a fair amount of time studying population dynamics through a large arrangement of species. Most of which, when being "r" selected such as humans are in Zal, switch to poly type relationships where either the male or female takes on multiple partners to 1. increase the rate of having offspring 2. have the best genetics for each offspring 3. insure continuation of the species.


As a disease ecologist myself, I'd like to see that research, especially in humans. Given that, off the top of my head, I can recall that there are several seminal papers revolving around behavioral tendencies and strong selective pressures to become less promiscuous and social overall under high disease mortality, particularly when faced with communicable diseases that you and I study. But this also extends to any social contact. For example, Storfer et al showed that even in something as simple as a salamander, social interactions (like cannibalism) are reduced when disease is in play and mortality is high.
That being said, humans can't switch from being K selected to being R selected. They can have more children, certainly, but we have physiological limitations in play. I'm not going to spawn 100,000,000 eggs like a black marlin just because Mekillots are a thing.

WarriorPoet

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #108 on: December 13, 2017, 08:41:35 PM »
I didn't read five pages of sniping and bickering but....

For my money, jealousy drives conflict. Gameworld open relationships are swell and true to docs. But it is much more fun to get jealous and stab some people.
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valeria

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2017, 08:15:48 AM »
Is it monogamy if there are no romantic/sexual relationships?

Nope.

Polyamory is a relationship style, not a relationship shape.  I could be a polyamorist with only one partner and closed to other partners, but our agreement is open for renegotiation after whatever the reason we're closed is (polyamorists sometimes close to raise small children, for instance, who require so much time, attention, and stability).  I could be a polyamorist with no partners because I've broken up with all my partners.  Just like how don't happen to turn polyamorist if you're a monogamous person dating around with the intent to start a new long-term relationship with your best option, you don't become monogamous by default just because you only have one relationship at a given time.

You wouldn't default to monogamy just because you have only one romantic or sexual partner.  Unless I suppose you've agreed to close their relationship indefinitely in order to be exclusively with a monogamous partner (but then you're a polyamorist in a monogamous relationship, which many polyamorous people struggle with).

Grapes

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2017, 06:47:22 PM »
Apologies for being out of line, I let myself get heated by someone's interpretation of the OP having an ulterior motive, when it seemed to me that they were just genuinely trying to open a discussion. I could have definitely worded that better.
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satine

  • Posts: 294
Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »

Actually, what is going on, is that I am a disease ecologist that spent a fair amount of time studying population dynamics through a large arrangement of species. Most of which, when being "r" selected such as humans are in Zal, switch to poly type relationships where either the male or female takes on multiple partners to 1. increase the rate of having offspring 2. have the best genetics for each offspring 3. insure continuation of the species.


As a disease ecologist myself, I'd like to see that research, especially in humans. Given that, off the top of my head, I can recall that there are several seminal papers revolving around behavioral tendencies and strong selective pressures to become less promiscuous and social overall under high disease mortality, particularly when faced with communicable diseases that you and I study. But this also extends to any social contact. For example, Storfer et al showed that even in something as simple as a salamander, social interactions (like cannibalism) are reduced when disease is in play and mortality is high.
That being said, humans can't switch from being K selected to being R selected. They can have more children, certainly, but we have physiological limitations in play. I'm not going to spawn 100,000,000 eggs like a black marlin just because Mekillots are a thing.


I am on my phone in a car so it is hard for me to respond </disclaimer>

I'm not talking about in only a disease sense, and you are correct that humans cant switch between r and K selection. i suppose we could equate violence to a disease, but i was mainly talk8ng about shift in animal behavior to being more promiscuous in times of hardship. this goes along with red queen hypothesis, as well as general selection. i can't access jstor via my android, but there is an interesting submission there (us for prarie voles monogamy should get it) where some holes in stable environments will engage in monotonous relationships, while prarie voles in harsher environments will engage in multiple relationships, in order to spread genetics as well as have the beat mate available for higher survivorship in offspring. interestingly, the monotonous prarie voles showed higher levels of oxytocin, while the poly voles had higher levels of dopamine (if I remember correctly... I'll re read the article after the Christmas season is over and i have jstor access once more)

anouther example could be chimps and bonobos, phalarope,Northern jacana...

I'll come back to this.
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  Namino:
 I'm not going to spawn 100,000,000 eggs like a black marlin just because Mekillots are a thing 

Namino

  • Posts: 136
Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2017, 04:04:18 PM »
I think you have some misconceptions about the red queen hypothesis, which has to do with reciprocal adaptation between parasite/predator and host/prey, rather than some switch to polygamy. A vague abiotic condition such as "high general mortality"

Actually, what is going on, is that I am a disease ecologist that spent a fair amount of time studying population dynamics through a large arrangement of species. Most of which, when being "r" selected such as humans are in Zal, switch to poly type relationships where either the male or female takes on multiple partners to 1. increase the rate of having offspring 2. have the best genetics for each offspring 3. insure continuation of the species.


As a disease ecologist myself, I'd like to see that research, especially in humans. Given that, off the top of my head, I can recall that there are several seminal papers revolving around behavioral tendencies and strong selective pressures to become less promiscuous and social overall under high disease mortality, particularly when faced with communicable diseases that you and I study. But this also extends to any social contact. For example, Storfer et al showed that even in something as simple as a salamander, social interactions (like cannibalism) are reduced when disease is in play and mortality is high.
That being said, humans can't switch from being K selected to being R selected. They can have more children, certainly, but we have physiological limitations in play. I'm not going to spawn 100,000,000 eggs like a black marlin just because Mekillots are a thing.


I am on my phone in a car so it is hard for me to respond </disclaimer>

I'm not talking about in only a disease sense, and you are correct that humans cant switch between r and K selection. i suppose we could equate violence to a disease, but i was mainly talk8ng about shift in animal behavior to being more promiscuous in times of hardship. this goes along with red queen hypothesis, as well as general selection. i can't access jstor via my android, but there is an interesting submission there (us for prarie voles monogamy should get it) where some holes in stable environments will engage in monotonous relationships, while prarie voles in harsher environments will engage in multiple relationships, in order to spread genetics as well as have the beat mate available for higher survivorship in offspring. interestingly, the monotonous prarie voles showed higher levels of oxytocin, while the poly voles had higher levels of dopamine (if I remember correctly... I'll re read the article after the Christmas season is over and i have jstor access once more)

anouther example could be chimps and bonobos, phalarope,Northern jacana...

I'll come back to this.

Satine, I think you're applying Red Queen in circumstances where it's not applicable. The vague general antibiotic mortality inducing promiscuity isn't red queen. Abiotic factors aren't evolving. You need reciprocal adaptation and coevolution between two living entities (parasite/host or predator/prey) to fulfill Red Queen. An organism simply adapting lifestyle characteristics to harsher environments is just adaptation, not Red Queen.

That being said, I'm familiar with Larry Young's work on the voles, and you've got it backwards. Prairie voles, which exist in an ecological sink (ie, praries have less food resources than meadows) are the monogamous clade. When  times are tough and population numbers are low (due to high mortality and low resources), it's better to mate pair and produce few, high quality offspring. Quoting directly from Larry's manuscript:

"Prairie voles are believed to have evolved in the tall-grass prairies, which are very low in food resources and where population densities are likely to be very low. Under these conditions, males may enhance their reproductive success by nesting with a single female and producing multiple litters, rather than risk not finding a fertile mate. An alternative explanation proposes that, since prairie voles utilize a saturated habitat, dispersal opportunities are low. Thus, natural selection favors the production of high-quality, low-quantity offspring reared by two parents."

The meadow voles are in patchier habitat of higher quality, and require high densities of low quality offspring to disperse across patches -- the shotgun approach. That being said, neither of these are totally analogous to humans because voles are voles, not people.

However, Arthi and Fenske (Polygamy and child mortality: Historical and modern evidence from Nigeria’s Igbo) showed that even in the same community, same resource pressures, same mate pool, same socio-economic status, being polygamous meant fewer surviving offspring, not more. And that was in people. The monogamous couplings were more re-productively successful in a sustenance tribal society. Granted when they looked at historical data, they lost this signal, so it's inconclusive, but I don't see how evolutionary biology of 'times are tough, spread your seed' applies to humans. There's no evidence I can find for that.

Now, as far as this being a game and not under the thumb of evolutionary biology, that's a whole 'nother debate I'm willing to stand on the sidelines for and let more invested parties decide on, but evolutionary biology and natural selection is not going to unanimously favor polygamy in harsh environments. Evidence is equivocal, or slightly inversely correlated.

Akaramu

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Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #113 on: December 24, 2017, 11:18:25 AM »
once had a long lived PC in a polygamous relationship triangle/quadrangle. It was an interesting run, for sure, and there were both good sides and bad sides to the equation as my character saw it.

I won't spoil how things ended, but in some ways the polygamous arrangement ended up benefiting everyone, in a harsh world where survival is a constant goal.

I'm so jelly. My IC partners (almost) always wanted to do the monogamous thing. Or at least wanted me to adhere to it.  ::)

LucildaHunta

  • Posts: 304
Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #114 on: December 24, 2017, 11:44:48 AM »
This topic makes me thing of that Sza song "Weekend"

"My man is my man is your man
Her, this her man too
My man is my man is your man
Her, that's her man
Tuesday and Wednesday, Thursday and Friday
I just keep him satisfied through the weekend
You're like 9 to 5, I'm the weekend"
Just like the white winged dove,
Sings a song
Sounds like she's singing
Oooo,ooo, ooo

Veselka

  • Posts: 388
Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #115 on: December 24, 2017, 01:57:23 PM »
This topic makes me thing of that Sza song "Weekend"

"My man is my man is your man
Her, this her man too
My man is my man is your man
Her, that's her man
Tuesday and Wednesday, Thursday and Friday
I just keep him satisfied through the weekend
You're like 9 to 5, I'm the weekend"

Amen.

Gaare

  • Posts: 960
Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #116 on: December 27, 2017, 09:51:26 AM »
Everybody likes drama. Also jealousy is an easy emotion to show/play as well.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -MT

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1375
Re: Why is monogamy so common?
« Reply #117 on: December 27, 2017, 03:03:17 PM »
Easy to play sure, hard to get right without coming across as a moron.