Author Topic: Brainstorming Skills  (Read 910 times)

AdamBlue

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Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2018, 03:41:42 PM »
After all these years.
Please, god, please.
PLEASE
GIVE ME
AN UNARMED
FIGHTING SKILL
SOMETHING THAT MAKES UNARMED FIGHTING A THING
MAKE CESTUS FROM A SIMPLE BLUDGEONING WEAPON INTO A COMBAT SKILL
I WANT TO PUNCH A GOD DAMN GORTOK TO DEATH AND NOT BE A HALF-GIANT
IF A WARRIOR CAN CUT AN ARROW OUT OF THE AIR WITH A SWORD I WANT TO BE ABLE TO SNATCH A FUCKING SLINGSTONE OUT OF THE AIR LIKE A BASEBALL
PLEASE GOD GIVE ME SOME ZALANTHAN MARTIAL ARTS
GIVE US A REASON TO PUNCH A CHALTON TO DEATH BEYOND PEOPLE TWINKING
I want to make them understand with my fist.
Seriously, maybe even make it like, an advanced weapon if you have to, that branches off having at least journeyman 'dual wield' and advanced 'kick' and 'subdue'.
'After practicing extensively with wielding two weapons as well as various forms of kicks and wrestling, ambidexterity can allow one to tap in to fight beyond mere brutish brawling, but really fine-tune the ability to fight unarmed, either by choice or by desperation, with finesse.'
Being disarmed no longer can mean instant beeps on a well-trained warrior, and to someone well trained, they can quickly close the gap and just beat the shit out of you despite the fact you sent their sword flying. Of course, unless you are relatively strong, your bare fists are not going to be able to slay things like Mekillot with ease unless you're something like a Mul or a Half-giant, but unarmed code already exists to be a very powerful combat tool, considering it focuses more on stunning things rather than dealing significant damage unless one using something like a cestus, claws, punch-knife or some other hand-based tool, which would then go back to dealing weapon-like damage properties.
Unarmed combat would be similar to daggers, one would suppose. Many very fast strikes, except that you can't poison your god damn fists.

Brokkr

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Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2018, 05:29:59 PM »
I am starting to see a re-hashing of long standing ideas from the GDB.  I have a limited amount of things we'll be able to see implemented, because our coders have a limited amount of time (a lot of time has been spent on code supporting this change you wouldn't necessarily see).  So the cut-off for what we can do is way above "this would be cool".

One of those things is threaten, which was meant to bolster heavy combat classes and at the same time potentially changing certain game dynamics.  I've seen a lot of theory crafting on threaten in the main GDB.  A lot of it was useless, and it was largely not informed, as most folks simply haven't used the command, which is expected as only several of you have it as a skill.

But let's think about this skill.  Most theory craft focused around the "kill" aspect, and things like lag delays and such, and how it wasn't dynamic changing as the target will just flee.  Probably true.  However, it also does things like prevent the target from hiding, backstabbing you, or sapping you, which is more dynamic changing, as that hasn't been an ability folks have had at all.  It also makes it more of a multi environment skill, just as useful (if not moreso) in the rinth as it is in the wastes.

Also, what is implemented is only the basics of what we have talked about.  I don't know what the final version will look like, and it could likely take a long time to get there.  My preference would be that you could choose from a list of commands to threaten with, so instead of it just being kill you could initiate combat with a bash from the threaten skill instead.  That could be dynamic changing.

These are the kinds of ideas I am looking for.  Yes, I get some folks don't like the penalties of fighting unarmed.  Asking for unarmed to simply become like armed combat is meh (I'm just picking on this because it was the last one suggested, and has been around on the forums forever).  Uninteresting and ultimately only changing one aspect of play...not being at such a disadvantage when fighting unarmed.

At this point, we have some classes that are looking to be slightly under-powered.  This is more than maybe switch a skill or two around.  On the combat side, we have fighter and soldier.  We have some ideas for new skills these two classes could get that would really balance things out a bit on the combat side, we'll have to wait and see.

On the merchant side, we have fence and pilferer.  This is where I really need ideas.  A skill (or skills) that would only be for these two classes.  Something that would cement their "place" in the scheme of things, while at the same time not something that supports only one role (i.e. just rinthi criminal vs criminal and GMH employee and whatever else) .  It may be that we can't get to that, but I'd like to try.

Also, please remember this isn't a wish list for what you want to see.  This is about ideas that would balance out the classes.  Going back to the unarmed combat idea in the previous post (not bagging on AdamBlue, he just gave me a good example), I'm given nothing on how unarmed combat is going to do that.  It doesn't read like a "This idea would balance out..." idea, but a "I'd really like to see..." idea, which is not what this is about, and certainly not the way to advance ideas you want to see implemented.

AdamBlue

  • Posts: 779
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2018, 02:13:04 AM »
These are the kinds of ideas I am looking for.  Yes, I get some folks don't like the penalties of fighting unarmed.  Asking for unarmed to simply become like armed combat is meh (I'm just picking on this because it was the last one suggested, and has been around on the forums forever).  Uninteresting and ultimately only changing one aspect of play...not being at such a disadvantage when fighting unarmed.

---------------------

Also, please remember this isn't a wish list for what you want to see.  This is about ideas that would balance out the classes.  Going back to the unarmed combat idea in the previous post (not bagging on AdamBlue, he just gave me a good example), I'm given nothing on how unarmed combat is going to do that.  It doesn't read like a "This idea would balance out..." idea, but a "I'd really like to see..." idea, which is not what this is about, and certainly not the way to advance ideas you want to see implemented.

Ree quit boolying

But if you want some actual constructive criticism on why unarmed combat should be a thing, there are many circumstances wherein someone is going to be caught entirely unawares without a weapon drawn. I've lost two characters to situations just like this, where not having a weapon drawn as soon as you enter combat means an untimely death for your character. The difference between a warrior who has a dinky little knife drawn and a warrior who is totally unarmed can mean death. Unarmed combat is actually less than awful at the moment, but the biggest drawback is it's entire reliance on having no defensive measures. A half-giant can reasonably beat most things to death with his bare hands, but he's going to get his ass eaten by a chalton.
I think something that exclusively good warriors should have would be more defensive measures while without a weapon to prevent instant and unavoidable 'beeps' because you didn't type 'draw' before going east into that room that looked entirely empty due to your lack of scanning ability.
Maybe either make it a skill, like 'footwork', where being unarmed can give you even further defensive bonuses to increase dodge chance, OR
Make it so people at advanced-master parry (experienced warriors) can parry blows using their bare hands at the cost of damaging their gloves.
Either of these changes could make fighting without a weapon to be less of a death sentence and more of a blunder.

Brokkr

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Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2018, 12:14:19 PM »
It is important that there are situations where even a badass warrior is vulnerable and can be killed.  This may be a difference of perspective contributing to how we look at unarmed combat differently.

Nao

  • Posts: 1907
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2018, 02:36:58 PM »
For criminals, there could be a 'bribe' command that lets you target yourself or another, and offers the chance of coin or items as the "bribe" itself.  bribe soldier 100 coins Amos could, if the skill worked, give Amos a quick reprieve from the crim-code.  If it failed badly, it could get Amos or the briber him/herself arrested on the spot.  If it semi-failed, it could either be rejected outright or cause you to lose the bribe without getting anything in return.

I'd like to pick this up again. A bribe skill (or a distract skill) could work on guard NPCs and make those turn a blind eye to crime (or in the case of distract, just not notice it) on success.  Or maybe it could work on VNPCs only and have crimcode work like it does at night, during the day. Maybe you could even bribe the rinth muggers into going elsewhere for an hour while you bring aide fancypants through.

This would give criminal groups a reason to bring along the crafter. Higher-class PCs like aides would also benefit from getting caught less (although social characters just tend to use coded skills less and will benefit less from any change because of that). This could also help with lawful areas being nearly danger-free. To keep this balanced, price, success rate and which (V)NPCs it applies to could all be tweaked.
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Someone says, out of character:
     "I had to fix something in this zone.. YOU WEREN'T HERE 2 minutes ago :)"

Zwen

  • Posts: 384
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2018, 07:02:50 PM »
On the merchant side, we have fence and pilferer.  This is where I really need ideas.  A skill (or skills) that would only be for these two classes.  Something that would cement their "place" in the scheme of things, while at the same time not something that supports only one role (i.e. just rinthi criminal vs criminal and GMH employee and whatever else) .  It may be that we can't get to that, but I'd like to try.

Okay, this is kind of a weird idea, but what about giving those classes the ability to break the normal restrictions for characters selling to shops? Specifically, allowing them to sell things to shops that normally won't accept that type of item, or perhaps sell more than 5 of an item. While that's not exactly fencing items, it gets at the idea that these classes are especially capable of unloading items in ways that other classes can't.

Master Sandwich

  • Posts: 15
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2018, 04:31:54 PM »

...
On the merchant side, we have fence and pilferer.  This is where I really need ideas.  A skill (or skills) that would only be for these two classes.  Something that would cement their "place" in the scheme of things, while at the same time not something that supports only one role (i.e. just rinthi criminal vs criminal and GMH employee and whatever else) .  It may be that we can't get to that, but I'd like to try.

...

Maybe an ability to do business at a shop that's closed would be cool. Also maybe some kind of way to get clan discounts at merchant house shops through impersonation when wearing corresponding house colors armbands/cloak/etc.

Van

  • Posts: 276
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2018, 06:04:01 AM »
How about a skill that allows one to salvage an item into its crafting materials, so a Pilferer/Fence or whatever could disassemble an item for parts and sell them instead of the hot item that was stolen.

Edit: You know I have such little experience on crafters that this skill might already be a thing I don't know about.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 06:06:46 AM by Van »

Kankfly

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2018, 10:39:50 AM »
How about a skill that allows one to salvage an item into its crafting materials, so a Pilferer/Fence or whatever could disassemble an item for parts and sell them instead of the hot item that was stolen.

Edit: You know I have such little experience on crafters that this skill might already be a thing I don't know about.

I like this idea! Let's say, the higher your corrosponding skill to the item you're trying to salvage is, the bigger the success in salvaging a complete crafting component from it.

So for example:

A bejeweled, chitin knife

examine knife
This is a sharp knife made of chitin with a polished ruby on the pommel.

value knife
A bejeweled, chitin knife appears to cost around 200 obsidian coins.
A bejeweled, chitin knife bears the distinctive design of House Salarr.

salvage knife
You begin to salvage a knife.

(Cue in skill check + tool (?) - just throwing ideas here)

Success: You extract a polished ruby from a chitin knife.

Success item salvage: a polished ruby (and/or) a chitin knife

You'll now be able to reuse this ruby in another craft, or fence it off. You can also sell off the chitin knife as is... or MC it into another craft (aka rip-off Salarri craft).
I ruin immershunz.

Brokkr

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Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2018, 07:12:42 PM »
I like the idea a lot, but...

Most items are not crafted like that though.  The things that make them up are cut up, shaped, or otherwise altered.  So for many things it wouldn't make sense that you could 'undo' the recipe, because you'd get something nonsensical.

You salvage a travel cake into....some flour, as an extreme example.

How would you get past that without a ton of work?

Zwen

  • Posts: 384
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2018, 10:01:57 PM »
One way around that would be if instead of physically breaking down the item, the PC was trading the finished item for its component parts. The end result would be the same. I wouldn't expect that option be be overused, because in most cases it's more profitable to sell the finished item. But still it would be a neat option, because as it is now, only one-for-one trades are possible.

Make it a skill that could only be used in the presence of an appropriate NPC merchant. To me it seems like it would work best if the items were coming out of the NPC's virtual inventory, since many NPC merchants don't deal in both raw materials and finished goods.

Nao

  • Posts: 1907
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2018, 02:31:53 AM »
I like this idea, too. You could restrict it to gems, at least initially, since those are rarely broken down in crafts.

For other materials - a lot of crafting materials have a large and a small version. Stones come in blocky/head-sized and fist-sized. There are large shards of obsidian and small shards of obsidian. For chalton bones, you even have three: long length of bone, short length of bone, piece of bone. Most of the time, it would make sense to have something like this:

>craft large.shard into an obsidian longsword
You craft a large shard of obsidian into an obsidian longsword.
>salvage longsword
You break down an obsidian longsword and manage to get a small shard of obsidian.

So you'd have to create a list of large ingredients and the corresponding smaller version. Want to salvage something? The code checks if the item is craftable and checks the crafting materials. If a gem and/or an ingredient with a smaller version is in the materials, salvage produces that gem and/or the smaller version. If the ingredients aren't gems or in the list? It's salvaged as usual. Same if the salvager fails a skill check.

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Someone says, out of character:
     "I had to fix something in this zone.. YOU WEREN'T HERE 2 minutes ago :)"

Kankfly

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2018, 11:12:22 AM »
Just brainstorming here: Perhaps success rate can be determined by how well you know how to make a certain item (ie. knife making), and how high your 'salvage' skill is, as well as the required tool (if tools are needed)?

As for making this possible without going through a huge amount of work:

I like the idea of starting with gems. Perhaps we should make a list of craftables that shouldn't be salvaged.

Here's a suggested list:

- Food
- Perfume
- Incense
- Soap
- Dried flowers
- Dye/Dyed cloth

These are things just off the top of my head. Feel free to correct me! :D

Edited to add: Dye
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 06:56:45 PM by Kankfly »
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Van

  • Posts: 276
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2018, 11:34:58 AM »
How would you get past that without a ton of work?


I'm not sure you could. Next idea then.

FENCE

As in you are a fence.  People can bring you anything and you can turn that into coins. Basically just a skill that gives you coins for an item, based on that items value and your fence skill. Cut out the middle-merchants.

A little less work at least.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 11:46:45 AM by Van »

Master Sandwich

  • Posts: 15
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2018, 01:56:14 PM »
How would you get past that without a ton of work?


I'm not sure you could. Next idea then.

FENCE

As in you are a fence.  People can bring you anything and you can turn that into coins. Basically just a skill that gives you coins for an item, based on that items value and your fence skill. Cut out the middle-merchants.

A little less work at least.

Maybe fenced goods could possibly end up for sale at appropriate nearby shopkeepers.

Kankfly

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2018, 10:44:39 PM »
I'm not sure I understand this idea. This role is already filled by NPC shopkeepers, no?
I ruin immershunz.

Kankfly

  • Posts: 1226
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2018, 12:24:16 AM »
Re: Salvage skill for fencers

If we made a list of crafted categories that can't be salvaged back to their materials, would that make the workload easier?

I'm not sure how we can get past it otherwise.
I ruin immershunz.

Van

  • Posts: 276
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2018, 10:38:43 PM »
I think you would just have to start with certain compartments and do it little by little, and it would be a bitch. Start with something like Salarri shop weapons and armor, jewelry shops, starting items. While Armageddon has (tens of?) thousands of items, I feel like most players only end up using a few hundred different sorts before they meet the mantis head.

Even still though that would be a lot of work. I think the idea doesn't have much merit if it's going to take that much work and we should move on to something else.

I really liked one someone else mentioned; a backdoor merchant perk that allow certain shops to have more money, different rarer items, different hours. That sort of thing.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 10:40:32 PM by Van »

AdamBlue

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Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2018, 12:09:31 AM »
Why is hack only limited to axe weapons? You should be able to 'hack' with a greatsword, and "hack" (see, break) with a club, and ""hack"" (penetrate) with a spear. Kind of lame that the only anti-shield attack is limited only to axes. Perhaps it should be renamed to 'Break' and made available with all weapon types, but have to be past a certain size to work properly. A tiny knife shouldn't be able to do anything, but a proper spear should. A tiny sap shouldn't do anything, but a big maul should.

Van

  • Posts: 276
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2018, 03:35:24 AM »
Eh, no to spears and swords. Yes to bludgeoning weapons.

Then maybe give spears and swords their own skill meant to negate armor by striking soft spots. Basically the opposite of Hack. Call it Jab or Pierce or something.

Brokkr

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Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2018, 11:38:51 AM »
Does this make more sense why it is the way it is?

Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack

AdamBlue

  • Posts: 779
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2018, 05:41:48 PM »
Does that mean you are planning on adding something for slashing weapons?

Knight of Knives

  • Posts: 142
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2018, 12:21:07 PM »
This is coming from my love of the Malazan books, because I'm brainstorming some skills which would make Fighters/Soldiers unique from the other heavy combat stuff.

Basically, a 'formation' skill. You would type 'formation <character>' and start fighting close to them - they get a defensive bonus from your proximity, especially if you use a shield. If they form back with you, you get a bonus back. And maybe allow for the higher skill levels to allow more than one people - you could give a bonus to 1-3 people depending on skill.

Skills for a fence: I really liked the 'bribe' suggestion. Having it work like the 'rent' command, where you could 'bribe templar' <player> <player> <player> and give your gang a reprieve to to a heist would be sweet.

Another skill for them could be an 'offload' or simply 'fence' command, where you could sell items to merchants who wouldn't normally take them who were flagged as fences. Gives them a bit of versatility to always get the coin even if there's a glut on the regular market already.
     >The so and so dwarf merchant says, beady eyes glancing around, "Well, you know I sell above the table, but...I'll take this off your hands."
    > The so and so dwarf merchant returns to business, shouting, "KALANS! Get your KALANS here!"

"Everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

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Nao

  • Posts: 1907
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2018, 03:38:07 PM »
Some ideas for the pilferer/fence side:
  • limited ability to shoplift
  • a city version of bury (I thought this had already been brought up, but can't find it now) that lets you hide items in a room. Can be found with forage artifact. This would even be useful outside of save rooms, if you want to do a dead drop without everyone picking up the huge pile of money you just left sitting around
  • Similarly, an ability to hide small items inside containers (sew them into the lining) so they're not visible simply by looking into the bag, or get found when the guards search you at the gate. Maybe enough for a knot of spice, but not a brick. Increases the weight of the container (and the usefulness of the value skill), but doesn't show up if you look inside. You need to salvage the container/rip it up to get it back, or check what is in there.
A rusty brown kank explodes into little bits.

Someone says, out of character:
     "I had to fix something in this zone.. YOU WEREN'T HERE 2 minutes ago :)"

Brokkr

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  • Posts: 398
Re: Brainstorming Skills
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2018, 08:06:09 PM »
One thing I explored, based on a player suggestion, was a skill that would turn a worn item into a container, and possibly a sheathe.  Sort of like criminal tailors in some movies, and the key being normally that item wouldn’t be a container, so folks wouldn’t expect it.

Unfortunately, there are code limitations based on what attributes of an individual instance of an item are saved and which revert to template.  Some cool ideas just aren’t doable without massive rejiggering of the code.