Author Topic: Newest Karma Discussion  (Read 413 times)

Veselka

  • Posts: 218
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2017, 08:20:47 PM »
#worldssmallestfiddle

Optics, bro.

What's the benefit behind belittling a player for having questions or expressing themselves, other than to shut down conversation and pat yourself on the back for being right?

It astounds me that Producers of this game allow others on Staff who don't have great bedside manners to interact with the playerbase in this fashion. Just get Adhira to answer questions like these and be done with it, she can actually see both sides and give measured responses.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 08:25:49 PM by Veselka »

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2017, 08:51:31 PM »
While normally I'd agree that staff snark is no bueno, I -would- like to note that the sentence before is literally:

Quote
It'd be nice if there was some bone you could throw to us greedy ungrateful snowflakes because even though I know it shouldn't, it does sting.

Read that carefully, and while the presentation of the #worldssmallestfiddle might be uncouth, it's kinda well earned.  Saying something hurt your feelings even though it shouldn't have and asking for recompense in the same sentence is weird.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Grapes

  • Posts: 160
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2017, 08:52:39 PM »
#worldssmallestfiddle

Optics, bro.

What's the benefit behind belittling a player for having questions or expressing themselves, other than to shut down conversation and pat yourself on the back for being right?

It astounds me that Producers of this game allow others on Staff who don't have great bedside manners to interact with the playerbase in this fashion. Just get Adhira to answer questions like these and be done with it, she can actually see both sides and give measured responses.

I doubt that was Seidhr's intent. Obviously this issue has already been clarified. No need to stir the pot. Staff are allowed to have a sense of humor, right? It was obviously a joking reply to a joking post, and something got lost in the text.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

Veselka

  • Posts: 218
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2017, 09:00:40 PM »
Intent has nothing to do with how you say things.

Consider the following:

"I see what you're saying and we'll take it into consideration."

compared to

"#worldssmallestfiddle".

It's a no brainer.

Remember that Staff have a 'unified front' they need to uphold. Optics in this sense are about paying attention to how you are perceived, before positing what could ostensibly be considered "Staff Position". Potentially belittling a player, especially if it's completely irrelevant and not necessary, yields very little. It seems that Seidhr is studying from the Nessalin Camp of how to deal with the playerbase, rather than the 1000% more effective Adhira Camp.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 09:04:18 PM by Veselka »

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 212
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2017, 09:02:28 PM »
While normally I'd agree that staff snark is no bueno, I -would- like to note that the sentence before is literally:

Quote
It'd be nice if there was some bone you could throw to us greedy ungrateful snowflakes because even though I know it shouldn't, it does sting.

Read that carefully, and while the presentation of the #worldssmallestfiddle might be uncouth, it's kinda well earned.  Saying something hurt your feelings even though it shouldn't have and asking for recompense in the same sentence is weird.

I guess I was just going for cheeky hyper-self-awareness. I figured the response might be something like, "Why are you complaining? You have 2 karma and thus have access to almost all karma options." So I wanted to acknowledge that and get that out of the way so it couldn't be used to shut me down without a response, but I probably went too far with the self-deprecation and ended up getting exactly what I set out to avoid.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2017, 09:13:05 PM »
I understood it.  I happen to disagree that now is the best time for everyone to be evaluated and given more or less options.  We just flattened it out, we have more changes incoming, and the 'big losses' as far as karma aren't included in the change.

But this is also from a player who is continually frustrated by how much the playerbase seems to view the karma system as a stepping stone of 'What I want to play' vs 'Forced achievement unlocking characters'.  My response wouldn't have been -that-, but I can also understand the desire to say 'Tough'.

I don't approve of snark.  I just think this is a case where it's being fastened onto and attacked for no reason other than it being trendy to do.  Our staff hasn't had a good handle on GDB responses pretty much since Nyr's time, so I prefer to keep the 'staff post critique' to places where the bad communique is actually revealing something bad.  Not an...entirely predictable, and at least to some degree, sensible reaction, where we're actually just nitpicking over proper behavior rather than an actual injustice.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Veselka

  • Posts: 218
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2017, 09:23:21 PM »
That's sad. People just expect Staff to react/act in this way, so it's alright?

Staff no longer need to commit some 'grand injustice'. This smug sort of dismissal seems to be intrinsic to some of their attitudes and outlooks towards this game and the people that play it.

I don't think it's trendy to express yourself, or express disbelief in someone acting in a position of authority to belittle your position just because they can. If anything, it's trendy to be a bull in a china shop, these days.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2017, 09:29:10 PM »
Yeah.  We should all overreact constantly to even the smallest slights because that will fix it.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 09:33:34 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 212
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2017, 09:31:58 PM »
I dunno, Seidhr said he didn't mean it that way and his next post was good-natured and positive. I disagree with Armaddict that I was basically asking to get a snarky dismissal; I went out of my way to be as understanding and empathetic of staff's work on this as possible, and even if I'm totally wrong about this being a subject worth discussing, and even if I went too far with the spoiled brat talk, I don't think that means I deserve to be cut down to size. But I doubt there is anyone here who hasn't made their share of tone mistakes on the Internet. If Seidhr really meant to put me down there would be no need to reassure me that he didn't intend to be hurtful.

Veselka

  • Posts: 218
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2017, 09:32:42 PM »
Yeah.  We should all overreact constantly because that will fix it.

Conversely, I suppose we should remain silent and keep our opinions to ourselves.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2017, 09:42:14 PM »
Yeah.  We should all overreact constantly because that will fix it.

Conversely, I suppose we should remain silent and keep our opinions to ourselves.

Never said that.  I said fixating on meaningless content doesn't contribute anything.  The entire GDB community is, for the most part, filled with random bouts of toxicity and snap judgments.  I filter it all out just the same.  In this case, even with my admission of it being uncouth, it didn't make me suddenly point at an expressed opinion and think less of it.  It didn't impact anything.  It did express an idea that I'm okay with, which is 'Tough, we can't accomodate everything.'  Arguing and debating about actual content is useful.  Arguing and debating about someone saying something in a way you don't approve of is an easy trap to fall into, but a trap nonetheless (none of us are immune; I only chimed in because it was garnering so much attention despite being...-so- minor.)

Swinging things around to the actual topic, since this one is losing its focus (blame me if you want, even if it's just responding to several posts that were already derailed):

Can we get some sort of affirmation that someone playing their sorcerer or mindbender role and keeping in steady contact with staff will not be force retired out of the blue if they're laying too low?  Is there -any- chance that we could get hat tips from staff on healthy ways to fulfill the need to antagonize within the game, in order to avoid that inevitable lull where you don't really -have- a next move to make and are waiting?  Basically...using skills just for the sake of using them is a behavior that has -long- been disapproved of under the watch of staff.  A fresh character often doesn't have real enemies or true interests yet.  Can they get information on where they are most likely to contribute well to the game, even if incredibly vague?
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

seidhr

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Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2017, 09:52:41 PM »
Soccer Announcer:  "And Seidhr goes for the snarky hashtag, yes!  He's done it again!  What a rebel!"

At least one GDB'er: 
https://streamable.com/4zmvo

I'm kidding again!  It's me!  Being that guy!  Hope you won't lose any sleep over it!

Veselka

  • Posts: 218
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2017, 09:54:26 PM »
Soccer Announcer:  "And Seidhr goes for the snarky hashtag, yes!  He's done it again!  What a rebel!"

At least one GDB'er: 
https://streamable.com/4zmvo

I'm kidding again!  It's me!  Being that guy!  Hope you won't lose any sleep over it!

I guess doubling down is one way to go.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2017, 10:01:22 PM »
Oh gawd, I'm an enabler.  Burn me at the stake.

NOW ANSWER MAH QUESTION BEFORE I BURY YOU ALIVE IN A BOX.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1877
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2017, 10:02:42 PM »
LOL that poor guy.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1051
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2017, 10:07:10 PM »
Eats popcorn
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Grapes

  • Posts: 160
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2017, 10:12:58 PM »
#triggered

I think many have been conditioned to react in knee-jerk fashion at any snark, even if it's a gentle ribbing. It's understandable, but it's best to give the benefit of the doubt until you see snark levels go past a certain point. Not all snark is bad, or cruel-natured and indicative of an extreme negative view of someone else... Let's just take our foot off the gas and realize that pouncing angrily is counter-productive.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

seidhr

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Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2017, 10:20:44 PM »
#triggered

I think many have been conditioned to react in knee-jerk fashion at any snark, even if it's a gentle ribbing. It's understandable, but it's best to give the benefit of the doubt until you see snark levels go past a certain point. Not all snark is bad, or cruel-natured and indicative of an extreme negative view of someone else... Let's just take our foot off the gas and realize that pouncing angrily is counter-productive.

There u go being rational.
#buzzkill  :-X

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1877
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2017, 03:01:01 AM »
and i was having fun watching people get mad because someone wanted to make a little joke.

damnit.

back to our regularly scheduled release notes discussion.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Grapes

  • Posts: 160
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2017, 06:57:35 AM »
and i was having fun watching people get mad because someone wanted to make a little joke.

damnit.

back to our regularly scheduled release notes discussion.

If you want to be a dickhole, might I recommend the "Love is War" thread, with Hatsune Miku

Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

Riev

  • Posts: 4793
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2017, 09:40:21 AM »
and i was having fun watching people get mad because someone wanted to make a little joke.

damnit.

back to our regularly scheduled release notes discussion.

The time for levity is, typically, not in the middle of someone feeling persecuted or attacked. Whether the persecution or attacks are real are irrelevant.

I'm interested to see where this ends up, as the game has a history of removing options now, for the promise of more options later, but later takes years. Everything done for a good reason, but staff tend to jump the gun to try and revitalize discussion and interest in the game, and in so doing alienate and, despite the good humor intended, ridicule their playerbase.

Maybe the guild revamp will be cool! I made a warrior 2 years ago because I heard there was a guild revamp coming. Now you're taking away options in the promise that the revamp REALLY IS COMING. I feel like we may see Half-Life 3 first.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2017, 10:07:26 AM »

People in power have a special responsibility to watch what they say.

A joke from a coworker is different from one from your boss. In the same way that a comment expressing sexual interest is different from a guy in a bar as opposed from the cop who just pulled you over.

Being a volunteer here changes nothing. It's still a position of power over people, if they still wish to play the game. They decide they don't want to play anymore, your power over them vanishes completely.

While Seidhr has a decent reputation for being friendly (at least with me), Armageddon staff IN GENERAL are known for being dicks. You can argue that is all in the past with past staff if you want, but you can't change the fact that there's a lot of negative reviews on TMC stating that and AN ENTIRE FORUM which comes up first in the Google search with thread after thread discussing Arm staff dickery and providing examples. So real or perceived, the impression is out there and you can't reel it back in.

Go read the reviews on TMC and try to visualize the new player who has read those reviews but then decided to give the game a try anyway stumbling across these "joking" posts. It's going to validate everything negative they've heard before they ever get a chance to see you for a good guy and they're going to leave.




ShaLeah

  • Posts: 4994
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2017, 11:46:03 AM »
I'm gonna keep playing like I play because special apps, that's why. Even if I end up like THIS which I have many many times in the past. I can't tell you how much I cried when I got my account notes. Raged like a mofo. Every time. I stopped asking for them.

I love the changes in karma very much. I am confident the staff will give those people playing the two guilds-that-shall-not-be-named a chance to get into the groove. Not everyone can be an <insert veteran players who wins the game by skill grinding the fuck our of every skill on their tree until they're all at master> they know that. The role has to be taken into consideration, as is the player. These people aren't tyrants. The IG overlords are.


A good way to think about these things is to tell yourself, if the shoe fits wear it but if it's YOUR shoe in the lost and found someone up there in Immland is gonna let you know.



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And ShaLeah's evil, by the way.

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1464
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2017, 12:16:47 PM »
If people just put half of the pent-up nerd aggression they have into the game (instead of, say, arbitrary comments on the GDB), maybe they'd stop desperately yearning for special apps. Or float the peak population above 29 players with some actual intrigue.

Regardless, I'd have put these roles farther out of reach to begin with. The majority of you have never been closer to a psion or a sorcerer role than you are now, so it's just kind of odd to me to see so much ado about nothing. This is ultimately a good change.
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LucildaHunta

  • Posts: 256
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2017, 12:23:13 PM »
When did the game become about special apps and karma anyway? This segment of discussion makes it seem like it is.
Just like the white winged dove,
Sings a song
Sounds like she's singing
Oooo,ooo, ooo