Author Topic: Newest Karma Discussion  (Read 414 times)

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 07:56:19 PM »


You need 2 Karma (3 Karma in the old system) to be able to play every available race/guild except psionicist and sorcerer. I don't see how that's rolled back potential? Removal of full magicker guilds, Nilazi, Elkrans and Drovians have nothing to do with the Karma system as such (and yes, I miss them too).

I had 2, could play everything I wanted to and special app most everything else that was interesting.

Then the big karma change, I went to "1" and lost everything I liked about the options which had previously required 2. Then for MONTHS there's no karma reviews, no possible way to get back to 2, and now there's a limit on how high you can spec app up.

So yeah. That's rolling back the potential.

I haven't had a lot of free time lately, but when I get a little bit, I feel very "meh" about playing.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1241
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 08:05:04 PM »
A lack of karma shouldnt stop you from playing the game.

Some people need to step back and play a purely normal character every once in a while instead of playing special snowflake guy #30 in a row.

tapas

  • Posts: 149
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2017, 08:32:17 PM »
I'd be fine with a rule that means I need to manifest and be active by 3 months. But this policy just means I'm going to get ragged on by staff because they don't like how I play.

Yeah like the cabbage says just play a mundane, problem solved.

Or take a step back, chillax, and understand that staff aren't going to jump down your throat for not casting a spell in your first week or some other super arbitrary super short period of time. We don't need to institute strict guidelines that dictate the exact moment you've "crossed the line", be it 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc. It's simple enough to me. Don't sit in the role and leave it unused for months on end.

I'm happy to play a mundane. I'm just speaking from past experience.

If it takes you an RL year to get good enough to be even slightly useful. You are doing things horrendously wrong. Join the Byn, be useful in less than a month of decent playtimes.

Want to be useful socially? Oh, there is this thing called the Atrium you can now join. Oh, but you rolled an elf. Yeah who wanted to be useful anyway because you are scum.

Things take a scope of weeks in this game folks. Not years.

This is the reality of at least one of the current high level classes. I'm in agreement that this class should be brought up to a higher baseline so they can do cool stuff earlier. But in my experience, joining the byn or the atrium and hoping for the best hasn't been helpful.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 08:38:42 PM by tapas »

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 212
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2017, 08:50:37 PM »
I'm sure nobody's happy about taking away people's karma options. Staff had a tough problem to solve with how to shrink/revamp the karma scale to make the higher end options more accessible while not screwing too many people. I think they did the best they could. I got quite a bit taken away from me, too, but once they bring back karma reviews, I imagine things will start to feel better.

Kankfly

  • Posts: 1191
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2017, 03:12:48 AM »
I think these changes work if karma review is open again.

Do staff have plans for it?
I ruin immershunz.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7490
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2017, 09:18:32 AM »
Forward momentum on the Karma front. 

Yeah. Like watching the bus you wanted to be on gain forward momentum as you chase after it.

Since I started this game it's been a constant procession of rolled back potential. You can play this in 2 more years ... oh wait ... we have completely redesigned everything and put you back at the bottom. And now we've pushed things back yet further. You're welcome.

You need 2 Karma (3 Karma in the old system) to be able to play every available race/guild except psionicist and sorcerer. I don't see how that's rolled back potential? Removal of full magicker guilds, Nilazi, Elkrans and Drovians have nothing to do with the Karma system as such (and yes, I miss them too).

Prior to this change, I had enough karma to app a psionicist and sorcerer. I might even have played one or both of these, back when it was an option :)  Now, even though it's possible I might have actually played one of those in the past as an allowable special app option, it is not currently an option for me at all. I have not been docked karma, it's just how the rearrangement ended up. It didn't bother me AT ALL that my full whiran karma was now split, and half of it was in the new karma 3, while the other is in karma 2. It didn't bother me, because I had no interest in playing any of the magick subguilds so I didn't care if I had karma for them or not.

However...I did care about being able to play a psionicist or sorcerer. Now, I can't do that either because my karma 2 option doesn't allow for it, where my previous karma placement did.

I feel that having only 3 karma "points" is not a great idea in practice. Perhaps 5 would've been more useful, and then provided more opportunity for people who have already been playing these "spec app only" roles, to continue being eligible to apply for them.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 212
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2017, 09:35:00 AM »
I lost a karma point, which I deserved, taking me from 6 to 5 karma. It was okay. All I lost was a few high-power magicker roles. I still could have technically applied for sorc or psi, once I felt I'd earned some trust back. Then they took away karma reviews right after I got docked. That was okay, too, because it wasn't supposed to be for very long and I thought that by the time I felt ready to put in a request, it'd be back. Then when the new system came along I was given 2 karma, whereas if I hadn't lost the point I would have had 3. That was okay. I lost several more of my available roles, but I could still spec app for what I really wanted to play every now and then, even though spec apps were rarer now.

Now with this two announcement I've lost 2 more roles available via spec app, and the moratorium on karma reviews is still going strong. I know it's silly, but I feel like I've been punished multiple times for the thing I did. Losing that point wasn't a big deal to me at the time--I cared 1000% more about the force storage of my character--but now it feels like the docking of a single karma point became a very serious punishment after the fact.

All that being said, I know it's a tough choice staff had in front of them. The karma system badly needed a revamp. The scale needed to be shrunk and there needed to be a point buy system, and somebody was going to feel screwed by the change. I'm not too sad. I just want karma reviews back so I can feel like I at least have a chance to get back to where I was. I also appreciate that opening the karma reviews back up is going to be a huge pain in the ass for staff as everyone puts in their requests at the same time for something that generally takes a lot of review and discussion staffside. I wish I had a good solution for that.

I guess the tl/dr version is that while I also feel deflated by the karma changes, I understand why it was inevitable that some people would feel they got the short end of the stick, and I sympathize with staff trying to make the hard decisions.

Riev

  • Posts: 4793
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2017, 09:49:33 AM »
A lack of karma shouldnt stop you from playing the game.

Some people need to step back and play a purely normal character every once in a while instead of playing special snowflake guy #30 in a row.

First. You're rude to assume everyone people who dislike a change are a snowflakes.

Second: A lack of karma SHOULDN'T stop someone from playing the game, but it does. I have no dog in the fight, because I've always been a middling player at my absolute best. However. This game has TRIED to become easier for new players to get into the fun, but in fact has unfortunately held them back at numerous turns.

I understand the need for the change. I don't necessarily disagree with it. However, people are allowed to dislike a change and explain why they dislike it. All of you who are saying the "complainers" don't have a say are, honestly, not being good people.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 10:05:30 AM by Riev »
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2017, 11:09:10 AM »
I don't think, "Oh, I only have one karma ... I guess I won't play today."

No, it's a lot of things similar.

I only have one karma so I have fewer options (even fewer mundanes) than I used to. I've been in most of the clans now and have figured out I really only like a couple of them. In most of the roles I could find myself in, I've got to put up with a lot of crap from people whose attitudes and styles I can't stand and even then I'm only ever going to rise so high in the organization. I feel like I've peaked with what I can do as a character.

And while I'm considering all those things, I eventually say, "Screw it, I'll go play Rimworld or M&B or something else where I don't have a ton of limitations imposed on me."

I guess it's just burnout on Armageddon. But it's one of the factors influencing why I don't play much at all right now, and I bet it's also why a lot of other people have stopped as well.




seidhr

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  • Posts: 452
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2017, 01:29:59 PM »
I think these changes work if karma review is open again.

Do staff have plans for it?

Yes, at some point karma reviews will re-open. (I don't know when)

We've still got the guild revamp to get through.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 212
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2017, 01:37:24 PM »
The guild revamp has to be complete before karma reviews will reopen? I don't want to complain, but that seems excessive, and the longer karma reviews are closed, the bigger the overwhelming rush of people sending in karma reviews as soon as they're reopened will be.

seidhr

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Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2017, 01:56:31 PM »
The guild revamp has to be complete before karma reviews will reopen? I don't want to complain, but that seems excessive, and the longer karma reviews are closed, the bigger the overwhelming rush of people sending in karma reviews as soon as they're reopened will be.

It's not a question of how many people are going to send in requests; we're going to get slammed no matter what and we know that.  It's a question of how all the guilds and subguilds will map onto the karma options matrix and what belongs where, and what corresponding level of karma should correlate to each level.

In the meantime, anyone with at least 1 karma has access to all mundane combinations (save mul) either natively or via special application, and those roles should always make up the lion's share of the player population.  They have access to all but what... four(?) of the elementalist subguilds too, in the same sense.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 212
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2017, 02:01:59 PM »
I mean, yeah, I know I'm being a privileged whiny little snot for complaining about not having the absolute maximum karma available while other people are stuck at zero, but it really does seem like things keep getting taken away. It would feel a lot better if there was at least a chance for advancement.

I mean, we were recently told that the moratorium would be lifted soon and to watch out for it, and now I'm hearing that no, another huge overhaul has to be completed first, and who knows when that'll be. It seems like everyone is stuck where they're at for the foreseeable future. I know your hands are kind of tied because there are big changes coming that will further affect karma, but it's just discouraging is all. It'd be nice if there was some bone you could throw to us greedy ungrateful snowflakes because even though I know it shouldn't, it does sting.

seidhr

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Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2017, 02:10:48 PM »
#worldssmallestfiddle

Riev

  • Posts: 4793
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2017, 02:16:22 PM »
#worldssmallestfiddle

... I'm truly at a staggered loss for words.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Grapes

  • Posts: 160
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2017, 02:17:41 PM »
I'm a little saddened a number of the cooler extended subguilds have been yanked out of my range, but that shouldn't be a prooblem once karma reviews are reinstated. Playing a desert elf with extended options will now range you roughly what it would take to play psion/sorc/mul. I, too, understand the need for making things more accessible to newer players, and salute the effort, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't perceive a few sneaky issues hiding in the shadows with the implementation. That said, I'm, personally, fine with playing vanilla roles or weaker extended subguilds, this may not be the case for everyone, however.

I wonder if it would or wouldn't be wise to drop the 1 karma requirement to play a desert elf? Considering the scale of investment required to gain a single point under the proposed new system, this would make sense to me, and would make it less taxing to get extended subs.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

Delirium

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Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2017, 02:19:02 PM »
I've had enormous amounts of fun playing low karma/mundane within the past few years. More so than I ever did with all but one of my non mundane pcs.

In so many ways, the game is what you make of it.

/shrug
"Our whole lives are just stories." - Vikings

I get wherever I'm going, I get whatever I need
while my blood's still flowing and my heart still beats

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 212
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2017, 02:25:07 PM »
I hoped that showing a little self-awareness would make me and my posts less of a joke, but I guess not. I wasn't just talking about my own spoiled self, but was also trying to advocate for newer players with less karma that do actually feel discouraged about the game and their progress.

I dunno, I had hoped I was able to convey that I wasn't just making a bunch of entitled demands and not understanding where staff was coming from. I don't think it was necessary to mock me for it even if my problems aren't that important, and even if playing the game is rewarding no matter how much karma you have, if any (and it totally is.)

seidhr

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  • Posts: 452
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2017, 02:26:16 PM »
I'm a little saddened a number of the cooler extended subguilds have been yanked out of my range, but that shouldn't be a prooblem once karma reviews are reinstated. Playing a desert elf with extended options will now range you roughly what it would take to play psion/sorc/mul. I, too, understand the need for making things more accessible to newer players, and salute the effort, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't perceive a few sneaky issues hiding in the shadows with the implementation. That said, I'm, personally, fine with playing vanilla roles or weaker extended subguilds, this may not be the case for everyone, however.

I wonder if it would or wouldn't be wise to drop the 1 karma requirement to play a desert elf? Considering the scale of investment required to gain a single point under the proposed new system, this would make sense to me, and would make it less taxing to get extended subs.

That first karma point will still be reasonably easy to get.  It's just to make sure people have some vague idea of what the world is about before we let them play a role that has restrictions and expectations.  An argument can be made that dwarves should also be 1 karma for the same reasons (and the fact that I've probably rejected about 500 bearded dwarf mithril smith PCs from new players since joining staff) but we don't want to be too limiting, and the restrictions for IC behavior on d-elves are stronger than dwarves.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 519
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2017, 02:26:32 PM »
Yeah. Like watching the bus you wanted to be on gain forward momentum as you chase after it.

Since I started this game it's been a constant procession of rolled back potential. You can play this in 2 more years ... oh wait ... we have completely redesigned everything and put you back at the bottom. And now we've pushed things back yet further. You're welcome.

It's really frusturating for sure, and probably my greatest issue with this game.
3/21/16 Never Forget

seidhr

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  • Posts: 452
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2017, 02:31:06 PM »
I hoped that showing a little self-awareness would make me and my posts less of a joke, but I guess not. I wasn't just talking about my own spoiled self, but was also trying to advocate for newer players with less karma that do actually feel discouraged about the game and their progress.

I dunno, I had hoped I was able to convey that I wasn't just making a bunch of entitled demands and not understanding where staff was coming from. I don't think it was necessary to mock me for it even if my problems aren't that important, and even if playing the game is rewarding no matter how much karma you have, if any (and it totally is.)

I'm not mocking you.  I get that it's a frustrating process and so does staff as a whole.  When everything is finished it's going to be pretty cool, I promise!

Grapes

  • Posts: 160
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2017, 02:35:35 PM »
I'm a little saddened a number of the cooler extended subguilds have been yanked out of my range, but that shouldn't be a prooblem once karma reviews are reinstated. Playing a desert elf with extended options will now range you roughly what it would take to play psion/sorc/mul. I, too, understand the need for making things more accessible to newer players, and salute the effort, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't perceive a few sneaky issues hiding in the shadows with the implementation. That said, I'm, personally, fine with playing vanilla roles or weaker extended subguilds, this may not be the case for everyone, however.

I wonder if it would or wouldn't be wise to drop the 1 karma requirement to play a desert elf? Considering the scale of investment required to gain a single point under the proposed new system, this would make sense to me, and would make it less taxing to get extended subs.

That first karma point will still be reasonably easy to get.  It's just to make sure people have some vague idea of what the world is about before we let them play a role that has restrictions and expectations.  An argument can be made that dwarves should also be 1 karma for the same reasons (and the fact that I've probably rejected about 500 bearded dwarf mithril smith PCs from new players since joining staff) but we don't want to be too limiting, and the restrictions for IC behavior on d-elves are stronger than dwarves.

It would be funnier, but more problematic, just to put "skill mithrilsmithing" in their list, rip off their beard, and turn them loose to discover the harsh reality of the situation. Templars would take them prisoner, torture them into revealing the name and location of their homeland, and then tromp off to raze it to the ground.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 212
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2017, 02:36:59 PM »
Oh, good! I'm so glad to hear it, seidhr, and thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure if you were joking with me or at me...you know how the Internet is with tone.

I'm honestly not here to accuse staff, be antagonistic, throw tantrums, or make demands. I'm just trying to help brainstorm what I see as a problem, which is that people are feeling like they've been set back and yet can't progress to where they were before, and they don't know when that progress will come back. People who have done nothing wrong (a group that I'm not going to pretend includes myself) feel like they're being punished. I know staff and players want the same things when it comes down to it, and sometimes tough decisions have to be made that are going to inevitably upset some people. So I totally empathize. I'm just seeing if we can bounce around some possible compromises in the meantime before the payoff finally happens. If it's not possible, that's fine, but it was worth a try bringing it up IMO.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1877
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2017, 04:22:17 PM »
#worldssmallestfiddle

#worldsmallesttuba

let's get a band going here.


but aside from all that, i dunno, i've always felt that dwarves were in the middle ground between 0 and 1 karma because the focus is literally such a difficult thing to play, and people don't seem to understand that until they get into the role, where they come up with the absolute most basic focus that allows them to play their monster strength human.

i also hated seeing half giants played like muls, or super power humans, but when i see stuff like that i usually send complaints anyways.

the karma review will come back, and ye of little faith will be rewarded for patience.

or you'll be absorbed into my growing hivemind of cabbages.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Grapes

  • Posts: 160
Re: Newest Karma Discussion
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2017, 04:28:35 PM »
#worldssmallestfiddle

#worldsmallesttuba

let's get a band going here.


but aside from all that, i dunno, i've always felt that dwarves were in the middle ground between 0 and 1 karma because the focus is literally such a difficult thing to play, and people don't seem to understand that until they get into the role, where they come up with the absolute most basic focus that allows them to play their monster strength human.

i also hated seeing half giants played like muls, or super power humans, but when i see stuff like that i usually send complaints anyways.

the karma review will come back, and ye of little faith will be rewarded for patience.

or you'll be absorbed into my growing hivemind of cabbages.

Dwarves don't seem that hard to play, but then again, I may have been Doing It Wrong. It's pretty straightforward on the surface, focus is everything... what does, or does not relate to your focus, and how, I would suppose, depends on the wisdom of your dwarf and your willingness to link something slightly unrelated to your focus in, but so long as, at the end of the day, the focus is the priority, I don't see the difficulty.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.