Author Topic: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?  (Read 585 times)

Strongheart

  • Posts: 54
This question encompasses a large part of the game, I think. To clarify my meaning of the question, it could go so far as saying: How is it fair to your character for the fault of yourself or another player? We all have lives outside of Armageddon, and when we do play, I imagine that if another player is absent (such as a character who rules over your own) should not be able to punish your PC when they happen to log-in during a particularly sensitive moment. Unless agreed upon boundaries are set, at the very least. While this is merely hypothetical, I would love to hear your opinion on the matter!
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Lizzie

  • Posts: 7443
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 09:49:51 PM »
I think it depends on the situation. I also think you should consider the situation itself - if it is truly sensitive, then perhaps it isn't you, the player, being punished but rather, the *characters* roleplaying the fact that someone who wasn't intended to be involved, is now involved, and reacting accordingly.

Example:
You log out in the middle of the salt flats, because you just had to go. You log back in, right when a defiler is defiling, visible, right in front of you. Unfortunately - there's really no way to UNsee what you just saw - your character saw it, there's nothing you can do to undo that. So if that sorcerer PKs your character for witnessing something he wasn't supposed to witness, don't take it personally. Wrong place, wrong time, nothing more or less.

Another example:
You log out in the resting area of the tavern. You log back in while a couple of aides are talking about conspiring to off their employer. Well - THEY should know better than to be talking about that stuff in a commonly occupied PUBLIC place - your character is one of the many people there, there are VNPCs there. So if they single you out ICly for the fact that you logged in, in a known "quit-safe room" - then I'd suggest submitting a player complaint.

Another example:
You log in, and find out it's 10 minutes before your sparring schedule is over for your clan. So you way your clan boss to let him know you're in the barracks. Your character gets beaten to a bloody pulp for not adhering to the schedule. Now - if you told him you just got off "gate duty" or "latrine duty" or whatever code your clan uses to explain being logged out, then your clan boss shouldn't give you shit about it. But if you told him you're just slacking off in the barracks, then expect your character to be treated as a slacker by his employer.

Hopefully you get the general idea, with these examples. Sometimes - it's not YOU being punished, it's your character. Sometimes, you're right, and you're being unfairly treated simply because you happened to choose that moment to log back into the game in a place where it makes sense for you to show up. In the first case, RP it out. In the second case, submit a player complaint.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Dar

  • Posts: 1163
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2017, 09:56:38 PM »
If you are lead into an area that is usually off limits some whatever time ago, then are forced to log out urgently due to IRL events. I do not believe it is proper for you to be punished, if upon your relog you're in an area that is off-limits to you.  That's OOC circumstances and it should be overlooked.

If your leader drops from the face of the world and without him, your training schedule becomes moot and boring, so your character starts playing hooky, skips training, goes out hunting despite being specifically disallowed from doing that. Then your character 'should' be punished, if caught at that. It is not your leader's fault that you broke the rules. Whether he's around, or not. In fact, virtually he 'is' around just otherwise preoccupied. There is no excuse.  Not that you 'need' an excuse. You do what your chara would do. But punishments are still justified if you're caught.

Anything else, and we basically need more detail to really judge.

What I would advice though, is sending a request. Log in your account on www.armageddon.org, then click new requests, then choose a Game Related/Questio and write the situation out in as much detail as possible.

Staff can actually answer this with the knowledge of what's going on. From my standpoint, there are too many ambiguities, that I am unable to really offer anything beyondwhat I did.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 54
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 10:48:39 PM »
Good stuff! I'll gladly read more though if anyone has more to say about this.

EDIT: And thank you two for incredibly thorough responses. :]
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 10:58:17 PM by Strongheart »
Die gedanken sind frei.

senseofeven

  • Posts: 332
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 01:00:19 AM »
For me personally, I do not think it's fair to punish someone or give someone a hard time (in the name of conflict) because you can't find them when -you- are awake, or even -blame- them for something that the character can't help, because real life always takes precedence in any kind of game. Just because someone else is on plenty when you can't find them because you're in a different timezone or even schedule compared to others.

I really dislike getting punishment or blame when it specifies anything to do with the time that you can log in and play, namely time. I could be active when you're asleep, and you're active when I am asleep. So why do I have to be punished for living in another timezone? I feel that it's poor even if it is considered 'quality' roleplay, I feel that's nonsense. You're giving conflict to something that's OOC or that the character cannot help. You're not being sensitive enough to the player that's behind the character who also lives a life like you do.

As an off peak player, I do get some measure of 'pressure/conflict' because people cannot find me and say it's my fault. Well, would you sensibly expect to wake up VERY early in the morning, jus so you can get your game fix? Why don't you do the same to find the off peak players if you want to get your plot progressing? Sure, complain and whine, but to dish out RP punishment?

No thanks.

nauta

  • Posts: 2181
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 09:08:21 AM »
I'm not sure what OP has in mind, but I tend to err on the side of caution/ignorance. 

For instance,

o I'll insist that the Gate Captain has more authority than me and that one should not even ask if they have to quit out.

o If someone goes suddenly AFK, I'll try to just ignore them (or treat them as an NPC) rather than assume they are dopey or krathstruck.  (Not always possible.)

o If someone hasn't logged in for weeks and weeks, I will try to assume they have been virtually around, but in a place int he virtual world I couldn't reach, rather than assuming they have been shirking duties or asleep or whatever.  (Again, not always possible.)

However, there's one point in OP that I wanted to highlight:

This question encompasses a large part of the game, I think. To clarify my meaning of the question, it could go so far as saying: How is it fair to your character for the fault of yourself or another player? We all have lives outside of Armageddon, and when we do play, I imagine that if another player is absent (such as a character who rules over your own) should not be able to punish your PC when they happen to log-in during a particularly sensitive moment. Unless agreed upon boundaries are set, at the very least. While this is merely hypothetical, I would love to hear your opinion on the matter!

If you are doing something that deserves getting punished by your superior, and your superior isn't around, you should be reporting it to staff so /they/ can punish you with a virtual superior.  If the PC superior logs in and happens to see you in flagrante delicto with a breed in the compound (or whatever the action is), then they absolutely should punish you on the spot.  That's their role.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 09:21:46 AM by nauta »
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Miradus

  • Posts: 1742
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2017, 11:55:26 AM »
This feels vaguebookery to me.

We've all played in clans with the guy who never logs on except to briefly spar, logs right back out, and disappears for every major RPT.

When you belong to a coded group, you're taking up a spot in that coded group. If you're not going to play in it, GTFO and let someone else do it. Now a lot of groups aren't really near their max limit, but if they are, I would expect leadership and staff to be looking hard at those guys who don't really contribute and bumping them out. That may FEEL like you're being punished IC for OOC events, but you're really hurting other more active players by refusing to give up your spot.

Absentee clan leaders are a different matter entirely that should strictly be dealt with by staff.


Malken

  • Posts: 9017
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 12:02:56 PM »
Boss PC probably logged in mid-mudsex session between two other PCs in the middle of the dormitory and was pissed about it.

"a particularly sensitive moment"  ;D
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Delirium

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  • Posts: 11427
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 12:10:45 PM »
Rule of thumb: if you get it on in a public place, fade the encounter.
"Our whole lives are just stories." - Vikings

I get wherever I'm going, I get whatever I need
while my blood's still flowing and my heart still beats

valeria

  • Posts: 5487
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Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2017, 05:45:04 PM »
I think Lizzie pretty much nailed it.  8)

Delusion

  • Posts: 339
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2017, 06:16:19 PM »
This feels vaguebookery to me.

We've all played in clans with the guy who never logs on except to briefly spar, logs right back out, and disappears for every major RPT.

When you belong to a coded group, you're taking up a spot in that coded group. If you're not going to play in it, GTFO and let someone else do it. Now a lot of groups aren't really near their max limit, but if they are, I would expect leadership and staff to be looking hard at those guys who don't really contribute and bumping them out. That may FEEL like you're being punished IC for OOC events, but you're really hurting other more active players by refusing to give up your spot.

Absentee clan leaders are a different matter entirely that should strictly be dealt with by staff.

Belonging to a clan but not playing much does not prevent others from being in a clan. There is no solid limit on characters in a clan.

I have perhaps three hours in a week to MUD. Sometimes I'll log in for a short period to do a coded activity or check round for characters my character might have been looking for, and if I can't find any of those, I log out to do something else. If I do find a character or characters that mine was seeking, I'll get an hour or so in.

I don't have enough time to play a combatant, really - much too much online time is required to have a combat character become relevant. I understand that the upcoming guild changes will amend that, and that's great.

I often play in clans, when I'm actually playing at all. If someone doesn't like my schedule, that's really their problem, because I haven't done anything to negatively impact them. If another character accuses my character of slacking IC because I do not have actual real time, then that player should really reconsider that sort of thing, because it's likely to drive off casual players. I've encountered that sort of behaviour and would heartily encourage people to really reconsider it. Of course, if they just want people to play more and that's all, that's great, but time constraints are a thing.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7443
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2017, 06:33:10 PM »
Belonging to a clan but not playing much does not prevent others from being in a clan. There is no solid limit on characters in a clan.
This is not universally true. Some clans do have solid limits. In particular, noble houses and their aides, and Oash and their gemmed. And while there isn't necessarily a "solid limit" on other clans, eventually the staff will see "oh - this clan has 10 employees, the other coordinating clan only has 2 employees. So let's cap out the first one for a short period of time to give the second clan a chance to try and catch up." Problem is, the clan with 10 employees, only has 4 that are active during peak time. It has one active off-peak but he never participates in clan activities since he always ends up being by himself. Then there's the whole clan leadership issue - if you are promoted in-game to a leadership role (as opposed to accepting a sponsored role that plops you into that position from chargen) and you just kind of stop playing for months, you are absolutely hurting the entire clan. No one else can take that leadership spot until/unless your character is dead/stored/demoted/fired or until/unless the staff step in to intervene and promotes/sponsors someone else. During that wait period, no one can get promoted, demoted, fired, or hired.

Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 54
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 06:41:34 PM »
All superb responses! I want to have you all know that I don't beat around the bush, aight? I don't throw shade like an uncultured hootenanny. Hearing your own experiences and opinions on the matter allows me to appropriate them into my own play.

Delusion, yes!!! Time constraints are such a hassle, and I think each of us suffer from that much, sucks that you can't play more though. And honestly? I don't know how often I'll be able to play in the future, right now is just a great time to be active for me personally. "If someone doesn't like my schedule, that's really their problem, because I haven't done anything to negatively impact them."

Valeria, I dig it.

Delirium, I'll take that to heart.

Malken, you're right on the money. ;)

Miradus, while this post was loosely born from an in-game event, I don't want to mix IC and OOC nor do I wish to be an attention-seeker. Well, I do enjoy socializing, toxicity is far from what I desire. I am blunt, and I perceive everything in an objective manner. Still, a most excellent response.

Nauta... come on, mon.

Senseofeven, the passionate reply is one to be celebrated amongst the pantheon of off-peak players everywhere!

Dar, yepperooni neighborino!

Lizzie? You're getting too much praise, get out of town!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 06:52:55 PM by Strongheart »
Die gedanken sind frei.

SuchDragonWow

  • Posts: 1328
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2017, 07:24:04 PM »
Here's what you should assume about another player:  nothing.  Be the character and deal with things from the viewpoint of your character.  Leave the rest to staff.  I had someone recently tell me "you don't log on much."  I have 90 hours in 30 days, so what the fuck does that guy know?  Nothing!  Trust me, you'll be happier if you just assumed these characters were not piloted by people, and immerse yourself in a fantasy world.
Where it will go

Strongheart

  • Posts: 54
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2017, 07:51:58 PM »
Exactly! We're ultimately all here to have fun.
Die gedanken sind frei.

Dar

  • Posts: 1163
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 12:36:57 AM »
Here's what you should assume about another player:  nothing.  Be the character and deal with things from the viewpoint of your character.  Leave the rest to staff.  I had someone recently tell me "you don't log on much."  I have 90 hours in 30 days, so what the fuck does that guy know?  Nothing!  Trust me, you'll be happier if you just assumed these characters were not piloted by people, and immerse yourself in a fantasy world.

That's only one sixth of a day spent in Armageddon. That's hardly logging on much. For shame.



'hides'.

SuchDragonWow

  • Posts: 1328
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 12:59:09 AM »
Man, that one always gets my goat!

I remember playing in the Legion, and some folks were saying "the Lieutenant is never around!!!!"  I had 2100 hours on that character over 2 years, but yeah, I was "never around".  I think some people live in an Armageddon vacuum and have no perception of reality.  ;)

It never fails that the histrionics common to the GDB will find its way into the game, but I think, to the point of the topic, when the game forces us into some meta consideration, it's nice to give a fellow player the benefit of the doubt.  But, when you're able, just be the character, and let the characters interact how they will.
Where it will go

Riev

  • Posts: 4682
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 09:42:23 AM »
I just always say the people I need to talk to are "too busy for me" to reinforce that not only am I generally scum (unless playing a noble or otherwise, in which case I'd have SOMEONE get the information I need).

Giving the player the benefit of the doubt is always #1 on my list. We're all here, engaging in a shared storytelling experience, in what little time we have in our own lives. I don't know of many (if any) clans with a rigid schedule that don't allow you to "take a morning off" if you request it, unless you've been doing it a lot. If the leader PC isn't around, well, you SHOULD assume they would be or have people reporting to them, so put it minimal effort to cover your ass.

I've seen it happen where someone logs in where they weren't supposed to, and USUALLY players are alright with "OOCly there's no way I'd be here, this was from yesterday's play time. requesting staff poof me back to a tavern". I've had people who logged out in their apartment, log in when I've taken it over, and given them no hard time. I just let them out, and go about their business, because again... OOCly they wouldn't still be there.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Grapes

  • Posts: 59
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2017, 01:51:59 AM »
Number one, it is not wrong to not be available ICly when people want you available, everyone who plays this game, particularly veterans, have RL concerns that crop up, some have kids, some are married, some are married to other Armageddon players. Whatever the case is, just as you have to help wash the dishes, change diapers, or sleep, arguably, as a baby cries in the monitor and get up in the middle of the night to change a diaper, a player on the other end of the world has to sleep WHILE YOU'RE AWAKE. This is not very convenient, but it is reality.

You have a job, this is another thing you can't ignore. You have school, you are a human being and punishing you for such restrictions is, not cool. See my sig for more details, the time has come for me to sleep.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

SuchDragonWow

  • Posts: 1328
Re: Is it wrong to punish the PC for what a player has done wrong?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2017, 04:15:37 PM »
I'm over it, myself.  If that's how the game has devolved, I say let'm have it.  If 20 hours, much less 10 hours, is not enough of your time to have a good experience?  Find a better place to spend that time.
Where it will go