Author Topic: Climb Code  (Read 2611 times)

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2017, 10:28:58 AM »

I'm not talking about the shield wall or the trees in the Grey Forest.

I'm talking about the walls in Allanak southside.

You look up and see handholds on the wall. You check your skills and you're at journeyman climb.

You type up.

You slip and fall, land on your neck, and lay there unconscious on Stonecarver's for the next half hour.

One of the many examples of the way climb is frustrating. I don't have any problem with the damage of the fall from a three room roof. It sounds like it will hurt and it does hurt. That's fair. But there is no mechanism to check the climb before you attempt it, and if you fail you are going to get hurt. And you can't scramble or you're highly likely to die from THAT.

Imagine you're a warrior or a ranger and you can initiate a fight but there was no coded flee mechanism. You start a fight and you either win or you die.

That's how climb is right now.

TheGoose

  • Posts: 127
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2017, 10:39:36 AM »
I've never had trouble with climb. But it seems like a partial fail state would be a good idea.

Edit: I also think stats have a lot more to do with how climb works than people are acknowledging. I think (don't know) that strength and agility both affect how often you'll fall, while endurance and agility may affect how much a fall hurts you.

That's just a theory. A game theory.

One thing I will say is that trying to scramble turns a negligible fall into an anus-clenching death-is-looming situation every time. It's mostly not worth it to try, even on a ranger with master climb.

EDIT: And it's fine that scramble is risky.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 10:47:10 AM by TheGoose »

Riev

  • Posts: 4793
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2017, 10:43:35 AM »
I've definitely had a critical fail on just trying to go up. I was maybe a foot off the ground, and fell right on my neck and blacked out. I'm pretty sure a PC came by and stole some of my shit, because there was nothing I could do.

I think at least on the -initial- climb, reduce the difficulty. You critically failed, but why did you land on your neck? If you're already a cord in the air... sure.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

TheGoose

  • Posts: 127
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2017, 10:50:17 AM »
...I was maybe a foot off the ground, and fell right on my neck and blacked out.

That's stupid. Please fix that.

I think at least on the -initial- climb, reduce the difficulty. You critically failed, but why did you land on your neck? If you're already a cord in the air... sure.

Agreed.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 519
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2017, 01:02:44 PM »
I do think there needs to be either more granularity, or more intuitive tool use. "with a staff in your hand, you climb east" doesn't tell me if its a detriment, rather than using a grappling hook. Is that how you're SUPPOSED to use the grappling hook? If I hold sticky string, does that help, or hinder because I have something in my hands?

The game will tell you if the item in your hand is hindering you when you climb with it.
3/21/16 Never Forget

Dar

  • Posts: 1168
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2017, 04:50:01 PM »
Has nothing to do with fairness. Has everything to do with the stories and gameplay. Permanent death and especially a sudden permanent death adds color and atmosphere to the stories and gameplay. But the severity of climbs punishment for failures 'only' detracts from the game.

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps someone truly feels that there is some kind of benefit to gameplay from it, but I dont see it. The scenario I described has happened to a character I loosely observed. That characters death was not caused by his actions, or someone elses actions, nor any consequences, it was just a tiny bit of archaic code that robbed an entire region of plots, stories, and eventually players for about half a year.  And I dont think it adds anything to the game.

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2017, 04:57:57 PM »
Has nothing to do with fairness. Has everything to do with the stories and gameplay. Permanent death and especially a sudden permanent death adds color and atmosphere to the stories and gameplay. But the severity of climbs punishment for failures 'only' detracts from the game.

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps someone truly feels that there is some kind of benefit to gameplay from it, but I dont see it. The scenario I described has happened to a character I loosely observed. That characters death was not caused by his actions, or someone elses actions, nor any consequences, it was just a tiny bit of archaic code that robbed an entire region of plots, stories, and eventually players for about half a year.  And I dont think it adds anything to the game.

Agreed.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 519
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2017, 05:23:08 PM »
That characters death was not caused by his actions.

So the character didn't choose to move into a climb room but then fell and died?
3/21/16 Never Forget

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2017, 05:50:09 PM »
Yes.  The current iteration of climb is totally ruining so many plots in the game.  If those plots, i.e. Things you were interested in whether anyone else was or not, had gone on, the game would be momentously changed.

The 'this ruins plots' and 'this scares away newbies' arguments are two of the least favorite things I like to see on a code discussion, even if it's only the former that is usually a gross overestimation of impact based off of the player aversion to death.

She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Dar

  • Posts: 1168
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2017, 07:31:09 PM »
That characters death was not caused by his actions.
So the character didn't choose to move into a climb room but then fell and died?
Consider climbing an 8 foot fence. Now imagine failing and instead knocking yourself out before you even pull yourself up by a foot.  Then dying to a cat that runs past and decides to scratch your eye out.

Not climbing a fence and then landing bad on another side. Not climbing a 3 story wall, losing a handhold and falling, not trying to climb down and slipping. But basically doing a pull up and  knocking yourself out somehow.

Its not impossible ofcourse. With enough imagination and mental equalibristics its possible to explain it out. But imagine 'that' ending ... ending anything really. It makes no sense in my head. Does it in yours?

I have no problem with climbing being dangerous. Heck, I had charactets with no climb succeed 6 rooms climbs. But the crit fail of climb mechanic makes no sense

lostinspace

  • Posts: 519
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2017, 09:19:17 PM »
Consider climbing an 8 foot fence. Now imagine failing and instead knocking yourself out before you even pull yourself up by a foot.  Then dying to a cat that runs past and decides to scratch your eye out.

Not climbing a fence and then landing bad on another side. Not climbing a 3 story wall, losing a handhold and falling, not trying to climb down and slipping. But basically doing a pull up and  knocking yourself out somehow.

Its not impossible ofcourse. With enough imagination and mental equalibristics its possible to explain it out. But imagine 'that' ending ... ending anything really. It makes no sense in my head. Does it in yours?

I have no problem with climbing being dangerous. Heck, I had charactets with no climb succeed 6 rooms climbs. But the crit fail of climb mechanic makes no sense

To me a crit fail is hitting your head on the ground. Grip slips, falls back, head hits ground, unconscious. I see no problem with this.

Also if you're worried about your character being unconscious, consider prioritizing a higher stun. I've had characters crit fall and not pass out, but they all had a high stun.
3/21/16 Never Forget

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 206
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2017, 12:36:13 PM »
I am not away of any climb room in the game that represents a one foot fall.  The top of the current room/bottom of the room up/down being one foot up/down doesn't really even make sense for an up/down exit.

nauta

  • Posts: 2206
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2017, 12:39:19 PM »
I am not away of any climb room in the game that represents a one foot fall.  The top of the current room/bottom of the room up/down being one foot up/down doesn't really even make sense for an up/down exit.

There's a few rooms in the rinth and in the northlands that are 'climb check' but not actual falls.  I've definitely knocked myself out on the rinth one, which was pretty funny.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5940
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2017, 01:28:31 PM »
Reading those room descriptions shows that they represent heaps and treacherous terrain with falls very possible within them.

Not one foot falls.  Though it would be nice if for those rooms in particular, you had some indication it was a climb check BEFORE you went into them.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

WarriorPoet

  • Posts: 4472
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2017, 02:52:26 PM »
I once watched a guy fall down on flat ground and knocked himself cold. Just tripped over his feet and wiped completely out.

I have nothing to add to the climb discussion. Just a random memory it brought to mind.
We were somewhere near the Shield Wall, on the edge of the Red Desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1879
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2017, 08:15:25 PM »
I once watched a guy fall down on flat ground and knocked himself cold. Just tripped over his feet and wiped completely out.

I have nothing to add to the climb discussion. Just a random memory it brought to mind.

any fall

literally any fall

could knock your ass out.

or even kill you if you land wrong.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2017, 08:50:11 PM »
There are tumbling skills you can pick up in real life that can mitigate some fall damage. To my knowledge, such do not exist in game.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7490
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2017, 09:32:47 PM »
There are tumbling skills you can pick up in real life that can mitigate some fall damage. To my knowledge, such do not exist in game.
That would be your agility and endurance stats, which you can prioritize during the chargen process. Also, in real life, most people are lousy tumblers, even if they paid attention in gym class in school. Most good tumblers don't "pick up" these skills in real life, they have very specific training. Most parkour tumblers are - not most people. Or even many people. They are the exception to the rule. Most people, when faced with the prospects of climbing a mountain, or staying down at the bottom enjoying the view, will order a fruity rum drink and grab the binoculars.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1246
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2017, 11:25:20 PM »
Parkour and tumbling are a lot like real life fighting. You need to be fit, strong and have good reaction to not get your ass broke.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1879
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2017, 12:00:53 AM »
i wasn't aware agility had an effect on fall damage.

i think it has an effect on your climb success, though, so maybe that's what lizzie meant.

yeah, endurance will help. having high stun generally saves you from knocking yourself out from a fall.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2017, 12:58:50 AM »
You need to be fit for parkour. For hitting the ground like a sack of meat, you do not, for rolling, you do not.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1879
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2017, 01:01:56 AM »
i... don't think rolling when you're falling will help much if it's a really sudden fall and you crack your head on the ground.

in fact, if you're going headfirst, a roll isn't going to help much, i don't think.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2017, 01:10:10 AM »
Not to be insulting, but please think outside your box a moment, several martial arts, some of the grappling ones, specifically, focus on not hitting your head on the ground and, as a matter of fact, redistributing the force of impact. Otherwise, they'd be impossible to practice.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1879
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2017, 01:15:21 AM »
i don't see much in the form of martial arts in armageddon.

i mean, there was one time, but you have an endurance stat for a reason.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2017, 01:22:48 AM »
Last thing, there's martial arts everywhere. Martial arts don't make you Kung Fu Jesus, they are adaptations to practice and technique. Brawling is an art of its own, as are wrestling, boxing, and fencing. Usually done as sport these days, I guess some of us start with the assumption that this is some ninja stuff you wouldn't naturally learn if you bothered to fail to climb tall fences or trees as a child, or never got in a particularly brutal scrap and survived.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.