Author Topic: Climb Code  (Read 2629 times)

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Climb Code
« on: August 17, 2017, 01:54:30 PM »

Fix it please.

Scrambling for purchase should not be like getting shot in the neck by an arrow.

Also, even at higher levels of climb with AI city elf agility, you still fail plenty even when carrying low weight. The criteria for success and failure is just not consistent at all.

Riev

  • Posts: 4796
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2017, 01:59:14 PM »
I considering climbing something too risky to do unless you're certain a full fall won't kill you. So. Mostly for my half-giants.

Maybe its like crafting, where (Master) climb doesn't mean you rarely fail, it just means you make better use of climbing gear... but even with climbing spikes, gloves, and harnesses, the risk is just too great.

You just KNOW those mountains are where staff of old hid the coolest and most interesting things.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

nauta

  • Posts: 2206
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2017, 02:08:39 PM »

Fix it please.

Actually, having had experience with a lot of climbers, I like it how it is, especially with the newer changes about flee not fleeing up.  There are definitely things you gotta learn, and I still wouldn't mind the ability to (based on climb check):

Code: [Select]
> assess down
This cliff looks very steep, and the drop appears to be about three leagues.

Right now the only way to figure this out is trial and (deadly) error or word of mouth.

Quote
Scrambling for purchase should not be like getting shot in the neck by an arrow.

Easy fix: make getting shot by arrows not do so much damage!  More seriously, this is something that is a bit counterintuitive at first --- the advice I give in game is that sometimes the wall hurts more than the floor.  However, there is an interesting dynamic here: if you know the fall will /kill/ your PC, the scramble is necessary.  If you know it won't, then don't scramble.  There's a risk in it which I like, in other words.

Quote
Also, even at higher levels of climb with AI city elf agility, you still fail plenty even when carrying low weight. The criteria for success and failure is just not consistent at all.

Can't comment on this, but I've definitely had PCs who rarely failed at climbing, elves included.  Sometimes you get in a peculiar situation where you have high agi and you can only get climb up to advanced or something, but in those cases I rarely if ever failed, so it was a wash in the end.  But that's anecdotal, so I can't really comment.  (Although I did, because I can't help commenting!)
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2017, 02:30:48 PM »

Southside Naki Parkour has killed more pickpockets than His Arm.




RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 18783
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 04:35:25 PM »
You can make it by with journeyman climb, no held weapons and a set of climbing gear. Safe places to practice are rare, because a crit fail can knock you out and leave you vulnerable. I suggest never going anywhere where you will suffer more than a 1 room drop until you are past getting failures when moving downward.

I have never scrambled for purchase on purpose and had favorable results. I have on accident though. I tend to avoid it unless i know the drop is fatal.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 04:37:53 PM by RogueGunslinger »

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 04:54:36 PM »

If the scrambling wasn't almost a death sentence to attempt, then it would be a suitable counter to the law of averages of falling at high journeyman or better.


lostinspace

  • Posts: 521
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 05:14:29 PM »
Climb is probably one of my most used skills in this game beside kick, and I think it's perfect right now.

I have scrambled successfully dozens of times to save my characters life. I've actually ran out of stamina climbing down a cliff in the desert, let go, and then scrambled 1 room from the bottom to save myself, then dropped to the ground and unrolled a tent. I like that climbing is dangerous for those without master climb, because, at least in my experience, climb is one of the best tools for shaking off a pursuer who is going to pound me into the ground if they catch me.

And if you feel like you're not doing enough, there are gloves, spikes, ropes, sticky string (I've only seen this once in clan storage) to increase your climb.
3/21/16 Never Forget

Vex

  • Posts: 29
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2017, 04:09:20 PM »
The scramble for safety, for me, does ludicrous amounts of damage, compared to fall damage. Scramble also has such a low chance of success, that, really, it's safer to not use it, outside of absolute death drops. It's very counter-intuitive, that trying to find a hand hold and prevent a long drop to the ground is, really, more likely to kill you, than spreading your arms and, with an smile, accepting the free fall to the rocks below.
"Mortals do drown so."

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1260
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2017, 05:54:41 PM »
You are also falling at break-neck speeds and need to do something about it, catching a handhold while falling a long distance is at the very least going to fuck up your hand a bit. And the worst is your arm breaking from doing it, its not exactly as safe as movies and games make it out to be.

Vex

  • Posts: 29
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2017, 10:36:08 PM »
No one said, let it do no damage. It should not be so harsh, that it's better not to try.
"Mortals do drown so."

lostinspace

  • Posts: 521
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 02:39:46 PM »
Scramble is a risk, because you've already fallen. Lots of other skills don't even give you a second chance, I see no problem with scramble being a risky move because it should be used in life or death situations.

As a little experiment I checked my logs for all instances of scrambling, they were pretty rare, and most my successes were with my characters most skilled in climbing which actually had a solid rate of success.

You can do this experiment yourself if you have logs, just use this cmd line from your logs folder to put all instances into a file, I threw the AAA at the front of the file name so it would be empty when it was searched and this command will also search all sub-files for those that organize this way.

findstr /s /i scramble *.txt > AAA_ScrambleResults.txt

You can then search that file for "but find nothing" and "and stop the fall" respectively to take a look at your successes and failures.

Cheers :)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 03:05:05 PM by lostinspace »
3/21/16 Never Forget

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5941
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2017, 06:40:00 PM »
Not sure if it already works this way, but 'scrambling' should take into account how far you've fallen, then reduce the fall damage at the bottom by one room.

i.e. 3 room fall, you scramble on the first room and take some damage based off falling one room before the scramble, then at the bottom you take damage as if you've fallen 2 rooms.

Or something like that.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Dar

  • Posts: 1168
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2017, 02:02:53 AM »
You know whats really scary? Is when your very first climb is a crit fail. And then due to that fail, you also fall 3 storeys down. That here is a plot squasher :).

Patuk

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2017, 10:27:24 AM »
Quote
Scrambling for purchase should not be like getting shot in the neck by an arrow.

Reminds me of the time some genius HG threw a bola at me, in pitch darkness at night, no torches out or anything, while I was hanging up in the rooftops waiting for dawn to roll around. That sure was fun.

Given that we're talking about climb code anyway..

Pleaaaase make city-bound guilds get better climb if the guild revamp does ever become a thing, staff? Pretty please? I know that rangers are the golden boys of this game, but those cool rooftops are a cruel joke when those that live in the city need to fear for their lives to ever use them :(
Quote
You take the last bite of your scooby snack.
This tastes like ordinary meat.
There is nothing left now.

roughneck

  • Posts: 633
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2017, 10:52:10 AM »
Anything less than master climb is pretty tough to live with if you actually want to use the skill. The Journeyman cap that the subclasses enjoy is pretty much useless in my experience.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 209
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2017, 11:55:05 AM »
For master to be worthwhile, levels lower than master need to be less useful.  To get to master, levels lower than master can't work flawlessly.

Riev

  • Posts: 4796
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2017, 12:12:33 PM »
In the city, I find if you NEED to climb, you don't need to climb up the 3-5 room areas. There are other ways to stay up and out of sight.

However, on a character with advanced climb, I had palpitations just thinking about going to some areas, because a 2-room crit fail put me at negative HP once.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1870
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2017, 12:30:25 PM »
It'd be cool if there were differing degrees of difficulty in climbable terrain. For example a stone wall might have many grips and footholds/handholds that even novice climbers could negotiate. And there there might be a virtually sheer wall with minimal handholds or any traction that only a master climbers or someone with a lot of climbing gear would hope to ascend.

roughneck

  • Posts: 633
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2017, 01:41:00 PM »
For master to be worthwhile, levels lower than master need to be less useful.  To get to master, levels lower than master can't work flawlessly.

You're not wrong, but it doesn't make journeyman any more useful.

It's like backstab. Ain't nobody going into a serious situation counting on journeyman backstab.

manipura

  • Posts: 1499
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2017, 04:24:44 PM »
If you're the one who climbs or backstabs on your weekends off because it's a fun hobby, maybe leave the serious situations to the folks who devote the majority of their time to perfecting those sorts of skills.

And if you're a player who wants to be able to come on the scene and be the go-to guy for climbing that cliff or backstabbing that enemy (or doing whatever), maybe don't leave it to your subguild?

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11500
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2017, 04:43:58 PM »
"Our whole lives are just stories." - Vikings

I get wherever I'm going, I get whatever I need
while my blood's still flowing and my heart still beats

lostinspace

  • Posts: 521
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2017, 04:56:49 PM »
If you're the one who climbs or backstabs on your weekends off because it's a fun hobby, maybe leave the serious situations to the folks who devote the majority of their time to perfecting those sorts of skills.

And if you're a player who wants to be able to come on the scene and be the go-to guy for climbing that cliff or backstabbing that enemy (or doing whatever), maybe don't leave it to your subguild?

Couldn't have said it better.
3/21/16 Never Forget

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1870
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2017, 05:10:13 PM »
It's good we can bring up subjects like climb on the GDB to be discussed.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:14:24 PM by Molten Heart »

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2580
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 11:23:23 PM »
Abilities are more than capable of being worthwhile at lower levels but it seems climb isn't one of them.
Bash becomes usable well after apprentice, disarm and the like as well.
Weapon skills are amazing at low levels as well.
Crafting skills aren't really in the same boat but you have a variety of stuff to do.

Climb has an extremely high chance to murder you with very little to gain.
Shade, profits, and George Bush did 9/11

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 214
Re: Climb Code
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2017, 04:09:09 PM »
It'd be cool if there were differing degrees of difficulty in climbable terrain. For example a stone wall might have many grips and footholds/handholds that even novice climbers could negotiate. And there there might be a virtually sheer wall with minimal handholds or any traction that only a master climbers or someone with a lot of climbing gear would hope to ascend.

I really like this idea. I think this would mitigate what people are complaining about while still making sure master climb is substantially better than journeyman.