Author Topic: IDEA: Nerf Skin  (Read 1800 times)

nauta

  • Posts: 2237
IDEA: Nerf Skin
« on: July 31, 2017, 03:01:32 PM »
Grains of salt first.  This is from a few months ago after the new meat regime came in, and this is just from the perspective of my character.

Praise second.

1.  I love all the new meat objects.
2.  I love the simulated desert environment, in terms of all the different critters and how tough they are.

Observation third: there's too much meat!

So here's the proposal: nerf skin.

(a) Add a delay to it so it isn't instant.
(b) Swap each level down one, so what is 'master' now is 'advanced' equivalent, what is 'advanced' is 'journeyman' equivalent, etc.  Hence, you partial fail more so you don't get as much meat from a critter as often.

Bonus suggestion: nerf fruits.  Make plants produce fewer fruits on reboot, or even none at all and let them grow naturally after reboot.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1874
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 03:17:57 PM »
The current way skin works does seem to be too fast. An idea I had was to make it possible to skin for things individually and specifically. If someone only wants the head of a scrab, maybe they could skin for just the head. Maybe someone wants just the meat from a creature and they don't want the hide, the shell, the bones, or whatever else is available. And by also adding a delay, this would make skinning a little more like crafting where the field dresser could skin what they wanted from a carcass, leaving behind a partially butchered carcass that someone else might find useful, salvaging bones or other animal parts they find useful. And if no one came alone, those things would disintegrate with the currently normal desiccation/decaying of the corpse object.

Maybe a dead critter has a valuable shell or hide and that would either have to be removed first, as a usable object, or scarified for someone who's just interested in eating a creature. This would make it more time consuming to harvest all of a creatures parts rather than possibly saving time by skinning for the exact thing someone wants. Maybe it'd be easier to skin for specific things because rather than skinning for every possible product a dead critter can provide, the skinner could sacrifice those parts they don't want in favor of more easily cutting out those parts they are targeting. This would result in either more time being taken to get -everything- or a person to save that time and go for only what they want, not creating an excess or lesser used items and driving down their value and scarcity because they are being created as a byproduct of the skinning process, and they'd be left to rot away with the carcass rather than possibly littering the landscape.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 03:32:36 PM by Molten Heart »

Riev

  • Posts: 4825
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 03:26:23 PM »
Or making "skinning" into a craft skill, since you can use objects in the room, now.

craft bahamet
You could make:
#1 a cleaned out shell
#2 three large hunks of meat
#3 a pristine bahamet egg
etc

craft scrab.corpse
You could make:
#1 a pristine, workable shell
#2 a couple hunks of meat
#3 A collection of bits (entrails, pincers, head)


Give people something they're really -after- with a dead creature. Maybe at Master Level, add a #4 - a set of shell, meat, and egg if you're really good, lucky, or greedy.

Bonus: Comes with delay timers like all other crafting skills.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Kryos

  • Posts: 878
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 03:34:38 PM »
I actually would take a different stance on this.  I've skinned a few things in real life, and the way I'd like to see skin tuned is that failures on simple components are greatly reduced to nearly impossible.  Harvesting meat from a body is . . . not hard.  Getting the hide is similarly trivial, though it is time intensive.  Further, if you down a deer and work the meat, you could feed a family for days, a person for weeks.  In that respect, due to Arm's code not requiring tones of daily caloric intake and abstracting it a bit instead, its not too bad.  I can't comment on all meat skins from all animals, but for instance, dropping a bahamet or mekillot should be able to feed a *lot* of people for a *long* time, provided someone prepares the meat to keep it from rotting.

From there, things slowly progress towards more difficult.  A slight measure of finesse is required for organ harvesting that doesn't result in ruptures(cutting a stomach open is not a pleasant event).  Doing something like harvesting the venom gland from a snake's mouth though, would indeed be worthy of a feat of a well practiced skinner with some tricks up their sleeve. 

In short, I'd rather see meat, hides, and most organs be near trivial.  However, the quality of each could range greatly.  Meat isn't more or less nutritious based on value, but more tasty.  Hides, however, could be gated into crafting based on their quality.  And I suppose there's the stickler, to get it less silly and more grounded would require a whole subset of code around modified item values.

Riev

  • Posts: 4825
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 03:46:13 PM »
I feel that's even more of a push for the Crafting System to take over for the skinning script, actually. At that point, you have certain reasons you're skinning the corpse to begin with. Are you in it for the hide? For the meat? Are you looking to pull a gland from the snake's mouth?

It might make it too discrete, as nothing says you cant pull a snake gland AND get its skin as well, but maybe making it a bit more discrete would allow for less "waste"?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11524
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 03:49:38 PM »
Skin the corpse, get a skin object and a carcass.

Then butcher the carcass with the craft command for its various parts (meat, gland, bone, etc).

That way people only in it for the hide/shell/antler will leave a carcass behind.

Instead of a pile of ... stuff.
do you remember
when you were young and you wanted to set the world on fire?

TheGoose

  • Posts: 127
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 09:57:54 PM »
I like Delirium's idea best.

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1066
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 11:11:59 PM »
This would make a lot of sense.
Quote from MeTekillot
Samos the salter never goes to jail! Hahaha!

Kankfly

  • Posts: 1201
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 12:35:07 PM »
While we're at it, can we leave some crime scene clues behind after we skin something? I'm not sure how messy skinning is, but I imagine it might be quite messy? If it isn't, then... maybe it can only be shown in 'hunt'.

>hunt
>Someone skinned a carcass here less than an hour ago.
I ruin immershunz.

Kryos

  • Posts: 878
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 12:38:45 PM »
As a nitpick and note:  typically when you kill something, its really heavy to haul the whole thing back to wherever you're taking it.  You also don't typically take hides in the field, because you're inviting all sorts of big problems in so doing.  Both in the line of sanitation and predation upon you in turn.  You open the body up, take out all the guts, and bury/dispose of/ignore the ones you don't want, stash the ones you do, and then haul the might lighter body back.  Also helps avert post-death related organ problems.

Riev

  • Posts: 4825
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 12:46:32 PM »
Skin the corpse, get a skin object and a carcass.

Then butcher the carcass with the craft command for its various parts (meat, gland, bone, etc).

That way people only in it for the hide/shell/antler will leave a carcass behind.

Instead of a pile of ... stuff.

I thought something SIMILAR to this was sort of in the works, but even staff are only allowed to submit <x> number of crafts a week or a month or something. It was Akariel's whole deal.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

nauta

  • Posts: 2237
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 12:52:06 PM »
1. I like the craft idea (craft into a carcass), etc. provided that (a) there is a delay, thus slowing hunters down a bit in the field, so you might think twice about skin-and-grab if you are in a dangerous area; and (b) the total amount of meat gathered from an animal is like 20% less than what it gives now, or, in other words, there's more chance to fail/partial fail even at master.

2. As to the points about realism, here's an idea to justify less meat from a cut (which I think is good for gameplay reasons): you just got done taking that thing out in the middle of a sandstorm with a bone club.  Perhaps the failure to gather the meat was because you splooshed the organ all over the whatever, ruining the meat; or some vulture snagged it while you were skinning; etc.

Here's a third idea:

3. Make skinning require an actual skinning knife, at least at master/advanced levels.  You shouldn't be able to make such clean cuts with a spear.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Delirium

  • Helper
  • Posts: 11524
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 01:13:19 PM »
who the heck is actually skinning stuff with a spear?

o.O
do you remember
when you were young and you wanted to set the world on fire?

chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1066
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2017, 02:03:34 PM »
Obsidian is a really good skinning tool.  Sharp and makes work easy, not maybe as easy as steel, but not bad either.  If you got a lot more meat objects then we would have to change food to more like how you need it irl and make the animals more rare.  Boring...I do like the idea of making skinning more of an ordeal though.
Quote from MeTekillot
Samos the salter never goes to jail! Hahaha!

Riev

  • Posts: 4825
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2017, 02:34:03 PM »
Obsidian is a really good skinning tool.  Sharp and makes work easy, not maybe as easy as steel, but not bad either.  If you got a lot more meat objects then we would have to change food to more like how you need it irl and make the animals more rare.  Boring...I do like the idea of making skinning more of an ordeal though.

I... don't understand. Nobody in the thread so far as said they wanted more meat. Just to have "carcass" objects and "skinning" objects, so if you don't WANT the meat, you can leave the carcass aside, or if you're a butcher, just take the carcass for the meat.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1874
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2017, 02:37:14 PM »
One of the issues with a surplus of meat is spoilage. I think if raw meat was spoiling faster, this might help with there being too much meat for the setting.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 02:42:47 PM by Molten Heart »

valeria

  • Posts: 5555
    • I have a writing blog.
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2017, 02:58:35 PM »
If the problem is people leaving things lying around in the desert, I don't think nerfing skin is the way to go.

I remember back in the day where the problem was that animals didn't drop realistic amounts of anything. You could skin a whole bahamet and get a shell and a steak. I'd rather have skinned animals drop enough meat that someone can, if they want to, live off of hunting.

Not that I'd mind carcass items. Just that I would mind going back to animals dropping less stuff.

I think the problem is that people like roaming the desert killing things, or maybe they only want hides, so they just leave the horns and everything else lying around. Makes sense because a shop will only buy X number and those things are heavy. It doesn't make any sense in the game world, but it makes sense with the shop system.

My solution would be to have shops give diminishing returns instead of hard limits so people stop leaving things lying around in the desert. But I think I already posted in that thread a couple years back.

nauta

  • Posts: 2237
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2017, 03:14:07 PM »
If the problem is people leaving things lying around in the desert, I don't think nerfing skin is the way to go.

It's partly this -- the clutter is a bit oocly jarring -- there was a time a few months ago when you'd rove the western Vrun and it'd just be piles and piles of chalton meat. 

But my motivation is more driven from an experience with a PC who was trying to RP being realistically hungry in a harsh desert world as a hunter, and so IC considerations would demand that she skin the angry things that tried to eat her, but then she'd just have all this meat that she'd end up junking on the sly, using things like: junk meat (as a vulture snags it).  (I'd see other hunters doing this too.)  I'd also try to avoid over-hunting the critters, but of course the angry ones can't easily be avoided, and fleeing all the time gets tiresome.  There are other RP ways of dealing with it (develop a distaste for scrab meat or gortok meat, for instance), but it just seemed that if you went out on a hunt in an IG day you'd bring back a lot more meat than you'd really need to, even without twinking.  (Most of my time was spent trying to get from point A to point B and not hunting.)

It isn't a big deal, but extrapolating from that, I think there are gameplay considerations (i.e., shouldn't it be harder to not starve than it currently is?).

Then again, it's just a single data point from a very specific character, which was the first grain of salt mentioned.  Other PCs and combinations might have different experiences.

Also, welcome back, hoot!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 03:20:08 PM by nauta »
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

valeria

  • Posts: 5555
    • I have a writing blog.
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2017, 08:22:55 PM »
Thanks!  I admittedly haven't been a hunter in a while, but I have been a scavenger, and most of the piled stuff I saw wasn't meat but was horns, organs, etc etc.

Anyway, I think if shops bought more than X slabs of meat, people might bring it in more.  And I also think that while the vast majority of people in the cities are starving the vast majority of people in the cities aren't going out and hunting either.  These are just my personal thoughts of course.  I like having the higher food availability, since food now rots.  Though it does make sense that meat left lying in the open would rot more quickly.

Riev

  • Posts: 4825
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2017, 09:14:17 AM »
I wonder if the City of Allanak would be interested in setting up a poopsmith-like code where you just sell them bags of meat for a pittance.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Miradus

  • Posts: 1765
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2017, 01:43:30 PM »

I want to see quality added to items.

A tan strip of hide (superb)

Which would be used to make a better quality item than "a tan strip of hide (poor)".


Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1874
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2017, 01:50:40 PM »

I want to see quality added to items.

A tan strip of hide (superb)

Which would be used to make a better quality item than "a tan strip of hide (poor)".

Quality in materials would be something interesting to see, so that not just every scrab shell would be the same, maybe some would be better than others and maybe some would be of poor quality. Maybe this would be something left up to chance, maybe the skill of the skinner would have something to do with this, with a poor skinner having more poor hides and a more skilled skinner having a better chance at higher quality materials making it less binary with all materials being equal.

Maybe superior quality materials would be easier to work and craft with. Maybe superior quality materials like shells and hides, etc, would be required to make higher quality goods. This could also apply to other materials, stones, wood, etc.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 01:55:55 PM by Molten Heart »

Riev

  • Posts: 4825
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2017, 02:02:50 PM »
There's a SIMILAR idea behind tools in the game, with qualities being attributed to certain tools, and I believe some crafts require a certain tool QUALITY.

I think it would be a massive undertaking to assign different quality levels to every material in game, though. I'd much rather think, for feasibility, that crafts start requiring tool quality.

Besides, are you then going to have a "poor" quality belt, and a "decent" quality belt? What would be the difference between the two?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1874
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2017, 02:09:11 PM »
Craftables requiring tools is a good thing too, especially with them requiring a certain quality. It's in the same vein as the new tool changes.

Finished products like belts having a quality value seems like going to far. Having quality variations for raw materials that are otherwise pretty much all identical seems like a good idea. It'd be a lot of work, but it's still a good idea, one that would provide good results with the right implementation.

Currently all diamonds are the same, I don't think there is anything like low grade rubies, or high grade rubies. It'd be a way to make high grade craftables less coming because they'd require a higher quality of raw material which would be more rare.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 02:11:17 PM by Molten Heart »

Riev

  • Posts: 4825
Re: IDEA: Nerf Skin
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2017, 02:12:32 PM »
Finished products like belts having a quality value seems like going to far. Having quality variations for raw materials that are otherwise pretty much all identical seems like a good idea. It'd be a lot of work, but it's still a good idea, one that would provide good results with the right implementation.

Currently all diamonds are the same, I don't think there is anything like low grade rubies, or high grade rubies. It'd be a way to make high grade craftables less coming because they'd require a higher quality of raw material which would be more rare.

Well, in that case, I think that'd require adding in new objects for the database, and creating/updating crafting recipes.

I mean, we have "a green stone" and "a polished green stone", and each one belongs in its own crafts.

If you had a craft that required a "high quality" scrab shell... I don't know. Why would you? What makes it high quality? Can it be a craft from an EXISTING scrab shell, where someone skilled in skinning or tanning can 'create' a high quality resource?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.