Author Topic: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list  (Read 1664 times)

John

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Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« on: July 29, 2017, 08:43:50 PM »
So I've been off for a month, busy with RL, and came back to see how things are when I saw necker has been banned. A made up word that has some similarities to a RL slur.

As someone who lives in a country with a high Asian population, I was shocked to see slant eye is on the list of permissible words, but yet necker has been put on a banned word list: https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Curses

For those who aren't aware slant eye is a RL racial slur. It isn't similar to a RL racial slur. It is one: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slant-eye

So are we going to put a RL slur on the banned words list? Or are we limiting the list to only those that trigger Americans?

I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.
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Lizzie

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2017, 08:51:29 PM »
Honestly, I've never heard anyone actually call an elf a "slant-eye." In addition, they aren't "slant-eyes" (as a descriptive, rather than a pejorative), so I don't know why anyone would call them that. Elves commonly have almond-shaped eyes. Almond-shaped eyes, for all intents and purposes, are - eye-shaped eyes.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5c/32/d1/5c32d1ebaa467d0c6e89f889a38cc4ef--almond-eyes-eyeliner-apply-eyeliner.jpg

No slants there. Just mundane, ordinary Western eyes.
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Armaddict

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2017, 08:57:46 PM »
Slant was an IC term for elves that I haven't seen used in game since around 2004.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

number13

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2017, 09:03:59 PM »
Quote
Almond-shaped eyes, for all intents and purposes, are - eye-shaped eyes

"Almond-shaped eyes" is idiomatic.  Yes, it refers to Asian eyes. No, it isn't really an almond shape.


John

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2017, 09:07:01 PM »
Quote
Almond-shaped eyes, for all intents and purposes, are - eye-shaped eyes

"Almond-shaped eyes" is idiomatic.  Yes, it refers to Asian eyes. No, it isn't really an almond shape.


Exactly. White imperialists have a habit of likening asian eyes to almonds for centuries: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/16/219402847/-almond-shaped-eyes-remarkably-exotic-yet-too-foreign

So yes, slant-eyed does make sense to describe someone who has almond eyes when you realise almond eyes is simply code for asian eyes. Of course, this little nugget of racism goes back to Dark Sun rather than Armageddon. The game is simply being true to it's original inspirations/source material.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Lizzie

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2017, 09:14:18 PM »
Yes I remember hearing the term being used to refer to Asian eyes - around 20 years ago. Presently, however, it doesn't refer to that. It refers to eyes, shaped like almonds. *I* have almond-shaped eyes. If you're a woman who buys eye-liner from cosmetics counters, you will know that almond-shaped eyes are eyes shaped like almonds. Nothing nefarious about that. "Asian" eyes are what you'd hear to describe people who have the epicanthic fold, and the term used for that is - in fact - "Asian" eyes (even though not all Asians have that type of eye fold, and not all people with that fold are Asian).

Armaddict says he hasn't heard that term used in game since 2004, I haven't ever heard it actually used in game. It seems like pretty much a non-issue. Or was, til you brought it up.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Malken

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2017, 09:27:47 PM »
I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

Then why make this thread while the debate on the necker word has been beaten to death over and over again?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

At least be honest in your attempt to bring the whole necker thing back to life.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

John

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2017, 09:35:47 PM »
Yes I remember hearing the term being used to refer to Asian eyes - around 20 years ago.
Nonetheless, when I first read the description on elves it was pretty clear to me that they had slanted eyes (then again, that was 15 years ago).

Also just because you don't connect something, doesn't mean there isn't a clear connection. As someone whose never actually heard the term nigger used in anything except TV (almost always by an African American directed to another African American with the exception of films set in historical periods), I never really connected the term necker with nigger before it was brought up on the forums a few years ago.

Armaddict says he hasn't heard that term used in game since 2004, I haven't ever heard it actually used in game. It seems like pretty much a non-issue. Or was, til you brought it up.
So are you saying that slant eye should remain in game as a valid derogatory term to be used towards elves?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.
Staff have set the standard that a word that bears similarity to a RL racial slur is not allowed. I have raised the question as to whether or not actual RL racial slurs are acceptable in game. I do acknowledge that this is stirring the point. But it's also a valid point to make.

So Malken, would you be okay if I created a character who consistently used the term slant eyed to refer to elves?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 09:38:47 PM by John »
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Malken

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2017, 09:44:12 PM »
So Malken, would you be okay if I created a character who consistently used the term slant eyed to refer to elves?

I didn't agree with the decision on banning the necker word, but that horse has long been beaten to death.

So yes, I would be okay if you created a character who consistently used the term slant eyed to refer to elves, until Staff bans it. I'm not on Staff, tho, so my opinion on the use of a word doesn't have much say.

I haven't played the game in forever but I heard that it was also in the way that necker was starting getting used, too much like Armageddon = Grand Theft Auto (necker please, how's my necker doin', yo, she's a necker lover, etc.) If people start referring to really bad wagon drivers as slant-eyed dinks, then maybe I'd start considering it a problem as well.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 09:47:54 PM by Malken »
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

nauta

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2017, 09:45:49 PM »
I was shocked to see slant eye is on the list of permissible words[...]

[...]

I don't think it should be added.

Wait.  So you are shocked to discover that people use this RL racist term inside the game, and at the same time you think that they should be using that RL racist term inside the game?  I don't think you were actually shocked, John.  I think you're doing a bit of trolling.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Jarvis

  • Posts: 62
Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2017, 09:53:09 PM »
Trolling is such a nasty word. We should call what he's doing as "satire".

we wouldn't want to offend any actual trolls would we
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Armaddict

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2017, 09:56:35 PM »
I think he's pointing out that the slippery slope is a real one when the principle of actions comes into play.  The principle behind the las course of action was present, but it's a principle that is counter-intuitive to the setting of the game.  I, myself, repeatedly point to these sort of things as arbitrary decisions; that is, decisions carried out on a whim based off of a personal attachment rather than a game-inspired direction or plan.

However, as noted in the other thread, such things being pointed out pretty much fall on deaf ears.  This is not the line in the sand.  It's just another example among small, but present, examples that have been displayed over the past few years.

I think this thread was unnecessary given how much the topic was already discussed.  I do not think these actions break the game, they are just indicators of the future and how the game will slowly drain itself of life until we become world-builders rather than player police once again.  That's...summing up all my posts from the other thread, so that I can never post in this one again.  Heh.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

John

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2017, 09:57:45 PM »
Wait.  So you are shocked to discover that people use this RL racist term inside the game
Nope. I was shocked to see a RL racial slur documented as okay to use given how sensitive people have become regarding racial relations and how the game can spill over to RL. My surprise is actually funny, because I'm fairly certain I collated that list back in 2002 or 2004.

at the same time you think that they should be using that RL racist term inside the game?
Correct. This is a game about a harsh post apocalyptic world where the good guys brutally murder each other as a matter of routine and someone's life is given little to no value. I'm okay with a RL racist term being used in game.

I don't think you were actually shocked, John.
I disagree. But you could swap out shocked for surprised if that would change the meaning of the sentence for you.

I think you're doing a bit of trolling.
We have policy X. I have noticed that item A is extremely similar and very well could be a valid reason to see policy X broadened to include item A. It doesn't mean I agree with Policy X.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Malken

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 10:06:13 PM »
John, you already posted in the thread about necker:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52594.msg989372.html#msg989372

which is why I'm wondering why you decided to create another thread about it today.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

John

  • Posts: 4035
Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 10:13:54 PM »
John, you already posted in the thread about necker:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52594.msg989372.html#msg989372

which is why I'm wondering why you decided to create another thread about it today.
That post was made BEFORE the policy came into being an official rule that could possibly see someone be banned. In that post I referred to people of mixed descent and how our roleplay is insensitive towards such people.

I created a new thread because I wanted to draw attention to the fact a RL racial slur is permitted in game (unlike necker which isn't actually a RL racial slur) and see whether or not staff or the players feel like it should be banned. This is a different point then either discussing the word necker or how we roleplay towards half-elves. But if the mods want to make combine this thread with the other or lock this thread I'm sure they will in some short time.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Kalden

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2017, 10:48:51 PM »
Seems like a good idea to remove that from the curses helpfile.

I'm not even Asian, but I don't want to see IRL words like that in-game.

John

  • Posts: 4035
Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2017, 10:51:26 PM »
Seems like a good idea to remove that from the curses helpfile.
What about banning it? Do you think it should be banned from the game?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Kalden

  • Posts: 834
Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2017, 10:54:35 PM »
If it was common, maybe. Since it's not, no.

Dar

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 02:11:21 AM »
I've got a headache from this thread.

WarriorPoet

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2017, 02:23:29 AM »
I played a long term character with slant-eye as the sdesc. I never considered for a second that it would be offensive. I used it because.... well.... his eyes were slanted. Radical.
We were somewhere near the Shield Wall, on the edge of the Red Desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

ghanima

  • Posts: 43
Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2017, 11:06:57 AM »
I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

Then why make this thread while the debate on the necker word has been beaten to death over and over again?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

At least be honest in your attempt to bring the whole necker thing back to life.

Dude, the guy said he's been away from the game for a while and only became aware of the necker ban just now. I think he's allowed to respond to the issue and weigh in. It's not like topics here have an expiration date.

What's with the obsession to silent even the faintest whiff of dissent on this board?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 11:09:53 AM by ghanima »

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7410
Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2017, 11:48:43 AM »
I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

Then why make this thread while the debate on the necker word has been beaten to death over and over again?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

At least be honest in your attempt to bring the whole necker thing back to life.

Dude, the guy said he's been away from the game for a while and only became aware of the necker ban just now. I think he's allowed to respond to the issue and weigh in. It's not like topics here have an expiration date.

What's with the obsession to silent even the faintest whiff of dissent on this board?

He knew about the ban. He responded to the post announcing the ban, and stating that players would be given a month to get used to the change before it became official. That was June 17. It's now July 30. He has been back since before the ban, and he hasn't left between the announcement that it -would- be made official, and the announcement that it -has- been made official.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
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boog

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2017, 12:00:44 PM »
Thus, he's just trying to stir the pot.

Christ.

I'm going back to OOC discussion only.
Case: he's more likely to shoot up a mcdonalds for selling secret obama sauce on its big macs
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Malken

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Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2017, 01:06:27 PM »
I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

Then why make this thread while the debate on the necker word has been beaten to death over and over again?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

At least be honest in your attempt to bring the whole necker thing back to life.

Dude, the guy said he's been away from the game for a while and only became aware of the necker ban just now. I think he's allowed to respond to the issue and weigh in. It's not like topics here have an expiration date.

What's with the obsession to silent even the faintest whiff of dissent on this board?

I'm feeling like there's an air of "positiveness" right now going on with the game and the community, as well as with the Staff. In all honesty, I feel like this post and the timing of it is just shitting on the players' and the Staff's parade and there's absolutely no need for it, considering that the topic has been beaten to death like I said and that the rule is there to stay.

I'm all for dissent and for "keeping it real, yo", but I think that shit stirring just for the sake of it is pretty lame, especially, like I said, when things are slowly starting to "feel" positive - positive enough for me to strongly consider creating a new character and hoping that what I'm feelin' is also represented in-game.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

TheGoose

  • Posts: 91
Re: Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2017, 01:28:01 PM »
Bitching about the necker change isn't going to get it reverted. Staff already did reverts on the silliest of the silly shit, but the necker change isn't going anywhere. Do what the rest of us do and ignore it IG, staff will continue not really enforcing this rule nobody likes or cares about and eventually it'll fade away. Shit stirring for the sake of shit stirring is counter-productive.

Stop being such a snowflake.