Author Topic: How pious are people?  (Read 1263 times)

nauta

  • Posts: 2206
How pious are people?
« on: July 12, 2017, 03:47:53 PM »
So here's a dork question.  Outside the Dragon's gate in Allanak it's (I assume) not a secret that there are a bunch of virtual peasants bowing down to the steel Dragon there.  Obviously, not all commoners show up, but I tend to think that the average (virtual) commoner genuinely holds reverence and/or fear in their hearts for the Highlord.  But how much?  Is it sort of like the worship of the warlord in the latest Mad Max ?

Is it a /real/ reverence, in the way that a modern-day Christian really believes in Jesus, or medieval Englanders thought of their King as the divine whatever?  Or is it a sort of /fear/ reverence, in the way that, say, people thought that Henry VIII was the Lord's appointed, because if they didn't, they'd get chopped up with bone swords?

Relatedly, do the nobles feel such, or are they sort of 'in on it'?

What about the templars?

(Clearly, PCs can hold as much or as little reverence/fear as they want.  I'm just sort of nerding out on the culture of it.)
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

whitt

  • Posts: 1677
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2017, 03:58:53 PM »
So here's a dork question.  Outside the Dragon's gate in Allanak it's (I assume) not a secret that there are a bunch of virtual peasants bowing down to the steel Dragon there.  Obviously, not all commoners show up, but I tend to think that the average (virtual) commoner genuinely holds reverence and/or fear in their hearts for the Highlord.  But how much?  Is it sort of like the worship of the warlord in the latest Mad Max ?

I kind of went a different route.  There are no echoes of anyone joining in that parade and no echoes of the band leader being at the front of a mass, that I've noticed.  There are no echoes in the Gaj of reverent grebbers/hunters/mercs pushing up to answer the call.  No echoes outside the gate to indicate that anyone is there beyond the folks that show up.

So by all means, there's a reverence, but it seems to me that reverence is the same reverence that you would generally show anyone that has a tendency to show up at a moments notice and pointed a loaded gun in your direction... oh and use it when reverence is not shown.

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Large Hero

  • Posts: 561
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2017, 04:46:35 PM »
Allanak is ruled by a literally omnipotent (from the perspective of the citizens) god-king, who works fantastic supernatural powers with results visible to the average person.

His servants, who walk among the citizenry and demand their obedience, also display supernatural powers.

There are multiple temples in the city with spaces designed for public worship.

I frequently play pious characters who do things like go to pray before the dragon statue in the temple. I think more people should. The evidence for piety in the average citizen is pretty clear to me.


IMO, the flavor of piety should be like ancient humans trying to appease dangerous, vengeful gods like Pazuzu: "Although Pazuzu is, himself, considered to be an evil spirit, he drives and frightens away other evil spirits, therefore protecting humans against plagues and misfortunes." Fearful attempts at appeasement and mollification.

Nobles and templars are not frequently depicted or RPed as being pious, but again, IMO they more often should be. They're still just humans in a hierarchy that includes a god-king and higher-ranking servants with incredible powers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 04:50:44 PM by Large Hero »
It is said that things coming in through the gate can never be your own treasures. What is gained from external circumstances will perish in the end.
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Large Hero

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Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 04:56:58 PM »
I'll add that Allanaki commoners are supposed to be very superstitious. It is commonly believed that diseases can be acquired simply by being near magickers, for example. It's reasonable to see connections between a superstitious mindset and a fearful reverence of a god-king with awesome powers, and the acceptance of the god-king's influence in your daily life.

However, this superstitious mindset is something the playerbase rarely chooses to RP, from what I've seen.
It is said that things coming in through the gate can never be your own treasures. What is gained from external circumstances will perish in the end.
- the Mumonkan

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 214
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2017, 04:59:29 PM »
I love playing superstitious and gullible and it's a lot of fun to do so. I highly recommend it!

whitt

  • Posts: 1677
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2017, 05:15:21 PM »
However, this superstitious mindset is something the playerbase rarely chooses to RP, from what I've seen.

Mostly because of prolonged exposure to experience over-riding that superstition.
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Ah well you should just kill those PCs. They're not worth the time of plotting creatively against.

Large Hero

  • Posts: 561
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 05:17:49 PM »
However, this superstitious mindset is something the playerbase rarely chooses to RP, from what I've seen.

Mostly because of prolonged exposure to experience over-riding that superstition.

What IC experience tells the average commoner that their omnipotent god-king is not influencing their lives?
It is said that things coming in through the gate can never be your own treasures. What is gained from external circumstances will perish in the end.
- the Mumonkan

whitt

  • Posts: 1677
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 05:34:57 PM »
However, this superstitious mindset is something the playerbase rarely chooses to RP, from what I've seen.

Mostly because of prolonged exposure to experience over-riding that superstition.

What IC experience tells the average commoner that their omnipotent god-king is not influencing their lives?

I meant the superstitious mindset, eg exposure to magickers having a detrimental effect.

The presence of the god-king's power is evidenced daily by teleporting ninja-half-giant superpolice that can beat down a pickpocket faster than anyone can Way that they think they saw a thief.
Quote from: BadSkeelz
Ah well you should just kill those PCs. They're not worth the time of plotting creatively against.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 214
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 05:38:04 PM »
I don't know. As long as you think like an uneducated rube then the superstitions about magickers are validated every day. Just blame them for random crap that goes wrong and turns of bad luck. See patterns that aren't there. Being smart and logical about the matter may seem inevitable to us because we live in modern society, but try to revert to the mindset of someone without any kind of education and who lives in a poor, struggling society along with gem-sporting boogeymen.

Large Hero

  • Posts: 561
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2017, 05:42:29 PM »
However, this superstitious mindset is something the playerbase rarely chooses to RP, from what I've seen.

Mostly because of prolonged exposure to experience over-riding that superstition.

What IC experience tells the average commoner that their omnipotent god-king is not influencing their lives?

I meant the superstitious mindset, eg exposure to magickers having a detrimental effect.


IMO, thinking like this is an example of failing to take into account the virtual world.

Virtually, commoners are riddled with diseases all the time. Magickers walk among them. It's perfectly reasonable for a PC to think, "my neighbor got sand rot because that gemmer walked down our street last week."

PCs never get diseases because players can't be bothered to deal with them. Doesn't mean they aren't ubiquitous in the populations PCs are drawn from and live among.

Almost all commoner PCs will have been told all their lives, and will have believed for all their lives, that being near magickers is dangerous and can have strange and terrible consequences. It doesn't seem reasonable to me, in most cases, for a few years of "well, I've known 1 or 2 magickers for a bit now, and nothing has happened to me" to wash that away.

As far as the relevance of these ideas to the thread topic: I feel the "logic" we sometimes apply as players similarly curtails both superstition and potential piety. As Sleepyhead said, superstitious and gullible is fun to do, and, IMO, it's thematic. We should do it more often.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 05:50:26 PM by Large Hero »
It is said that things coming in through the gate can never be your own treasures. What is gained from external circumstances will perish in the end.
- the Mumonkan

whitt

  • Posts: 1677
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2017, 05:59:08 PM »
IMO, thinking like this is an example of failing to take into account the virtual world.

Ah the "Find Out IC" crutch of the RP police.  "Take into account the virtual world".

The Virtual World doesn't put sid into the hands of the PC merchant.  The Virtual World doesn't supply hunters and grebbers to fill the needs of PC crafters.  You can't call out to the Virtual Byn for an escort or expect the Virtual Kuraci Fist to ride over the dunes and save you from the gith.  The Virtual World doesn't do anything that it doesn't reflect by actually making happen.  The Crim Code is an example of the Virtual World making itself Known.  Echoes throughout the game world reflect the Virtual World. 

Expecting someone to toss all of their actual experience for a "but the Virtual World" argument only devalues the experience of playing.  I mean, every PC raider should be stopping in each room and RP hassling the virtual grebbers right?  And the Arm PCs should follow up every complaint about the pick-pockets roaming the Bazaar, right?  And everyone that hassles an Elf PC or NPC should go back to their apartment, junk the contents, and show up for the next several days explaining how they'll never do that again, right?

Or does the "take into the Virtual World" only apply when it's an excuse for things not actually happening in-game, just like "Find out IC" is a crap answer to Where do I get water?
Quote from: BadSkeelz
Ah well you should just kill those PCs. They're not worth the time of plotting creatively against.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 214
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 06:14:42 PM »
How valuable "take into account the virtual world" is depends on the context. In this case it makes perfect sense because it justifies upholding the docs and the game culture. A raider PC doesn't need to RP hassling the virtual grebbers because he can be doing that on his "off-camera" time. What isn't as cool is if a raider pretends there are no soldiers and farmers around Yaroch because they are not represented by PCs. People absolutely should be taking the virtual world into account--to a reasonable extent. You probably shouldn't jump to unreasonable examples just because you don't like the phrase.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8257
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2017, 06:42:25 PM »
If this orphan didn't want me giving him sparring clubs and then beating the shit out of him for my own personal benefit then he should have prayed harder for the virtual world to protect him.

More seriously, defaulting to "IC experience" over "virtual expectations"  is how we wind up with northerners being serenaded by Gemmed at the Gaj without any comeuppance.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 06:44:17 PM by BadSkeelz »
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James de Monet

  • Posts: 3235
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2017, 04:12:34 AM »
Apologies for promoting my own log, but The Tipping Point, which was posted recently, shows the inner thoughts of two Templars illustrating this point.  Takharion's piety seems to be sort of pragmatic, a bit like extreme respect, whereas Kitrix's is a little more like religious devotion, but you may note both are motivated by fear.  Templars have FAR more reason to fear Tektolnes than do commoners, IMO, because not only can he hurt/kill them, he can strip away everything they are, everything that makes their lives better than the wretched masses, and they have seen far more of his hideous power than anyone else.
You know I think if James simply retitled his thread "Cheese" and apologized for his first post being off-topic, all problems would be solved.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 521
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 06:24:43 PM »
My characters have ranged from extremely pious (going to worship outside the gate every morning), to not at all pious. My only HG did the morning devotions every morning because the Templar yelled at him to every morning when he was in the Gaj.
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Black

  • Posts: 16
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2017, 01:09:19 PM »
I would like to see more piety also.

valeria

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Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2017, 03:20:24 PM »
My characters vary, but now I'm tempted to log surf and post a whole bunch of different prayers, both my ultra zealous templar's and others. I did have one commoner who went to devotions every morning, and another Allanaki commoner who didn't really believe that Tektolnes existed.

Most of my commoners are the equivalent of high holidays worshipers. They don't go to devotions, and they'll engage in lots of praise if a templar or True Believer is around because they don't want to be reported as heretical, but that's about it. They might pray sometimes but don't really think it'll get them anything.

I don't think any aspect of a society is monolithic. So it makes sense that different commoners would be religious to different levels.

Riev

  • Posts: 4796
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2017, 03:23:52 PM »
I have definitely played the Tuluki "Muk Utep doesn't exist, he's just the boogeyman they say is watching you and cares for you so you behave" kind of PC, that definitely says "All Hail the Sun King" when someone passes.

I suppose it'd be interesting for a short time to be a very pious person. I wonder if they'd be generally accepted, or HATED as a over-zealous proselytizer (of sorts)
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chrisdcoulombe

  • Posts: 1051
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2017, 06:28:59 AM »
I had a character that was obsessed with devotions and went to them every morning.  He got jailed for a murder of someone that he felt deserved murdered for their lack of faith.  He accused the Templar of not having faith, after some debate.   "You don't know who Tektolnes is, you are  fraud."  And he threw his sunslits at the templar.  RIP
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valeria

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Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2017, 10:39:20 AM »
My templar's prayers during about a single week of playing him.  He prayed pretty much every time I logged in:

Code: [Select]
Lowering yourself into a prone position in front of a jade and obsidian altar, you say, in tatlum:
     "Dreaded and Highest of Lords.  I ask that you continue to bless my health and being as I work in your service, and the healths and beings of those who work through me."

Somberly addressing the rug in front of a jade and obsidian altar, you say, in tatlum:
     "I will continue to prove worthy of your blessings.  I will continue to dedicate my life to your service.  I will remain unfailing in my devotion to you, and punish those who would work against you."

Briefly glancing up at a jade and obsidian altar, before restoring your head to its former position, you say, in tatlum:
     "I'm sure my flaws are as obvious to you as they are to me, almighty king.  I pray that if it becomes necessary for you to punish me for them, that I take the full..."

You say, in tatlum:
     "... measure of the lesson."

___

Lowering yourself into a prone position in front of a jade and obsidian altar, with your forehead pressed against the rug, you say, in tatlum:
     "Dreaded and mighty sovereign and Highest of Lords, I pray that I continue to mete our your justice in a way that pleases you."

Sucking in a deep breath before going on, you say, in tatlum:
     "That I continue to do your work in a way that merits your favor.  And that should I ever fail in my duties, justice will be meted out against me just as swiftly and mercilessly."

You say, in tatlum:
     "Even as I don't tolerate failure, terrible King, I know that you don't either.  I pray that you grant me the mercy and strength to be as uncompromising as you yourself are."

___

Lowering yourself into a prone position before a jade and obsidian altar, you say, in tatlum:
     "Dreaded and terrifying Tektolnes.  Whenever I hear that your enemies quake in fear and scatter like children in the face of an angry parent, it brings me joy and pride."

Intoning somberly, you say, in tatlum:
     "I pray that you continue to bless me with full knowledge and enjoyment of this aspect of your nature.  May you remain ever a spectre of punishment hovering over the heads of the wayward."

___

Throwing yourself prone on the rug, you say, in tatlum:
     "Highest of Lords and mighty and terrifying sovereign.  I ask as always for your continued wisdom and guidance as I work in your name."

In a low growl, you say, in tatlum:
     "And for the patience not to kill your other servants, who also do work in your name, including my colleagues and my own aide."

The Lonely Hunter

  • Posts: 774
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2017, 06:27:07 PM »
The virtual world doesn't count is not an acceptable reason to ignore documentation, nor is vNPCs don't put coins in the merchant's hands. This mindset in our newer players is likely a contributing factor to the degradation of Allanaki culture over the last decade.

The virtual world does count. It does affect you. The documents are not optional based on your IC experience. That sort of thinking is a slippery slope.

Armageddon rose to greatness because of, in large part, adherence and enforcement of the documentation. Both of which have been lacking, imo.
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Riev

  • Posts: 4796
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2017, 09:32:39 AM »
Armageddon rose to greatness because of, in large part, adherence and enforcement of the documentation. Both of which have been lacking, imo.

A staff member has told stories about "the man with the funny pants" being a character they engaged with and assisted along.

I'm afraid I'm going to need more information than "in large part" and "both are lacking" other than your opinion. Not that I specifically disagree, but I don't think Arm "rose to greatness" because of adherence and enforcement of the documentation, but rather because of perma-death and enforced roleplay.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Kankfly

  • Posts: 1191
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2017, 11:02:51 AM »
I'm afraid I'm going to need more information than "in large part" and "both are lacking" other than your opinion. Not that I specifically disagree, but I don't think Arm "rose to greatness" because of adherence and enforcement of the documentation, but rather because of perma-death and enforced roleplay.

But Arm rose to greatness because of adherence and enforcement of the documentation though? I mean... if you don't adhere to the docs, and if no one RPs according to the docs, then... um... no one needs the docs.

The docs are there as a foundation to RP in Arm. If no one RPs according to the docs, then you'll have desert elves renting apartments in the city and hoarding sids in the bank, sorcerers having tea with aides, and escaped muls playing kruth with Borsail Wyverns.
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Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2017, 01:19:24 PM »

In my limited time here, I've seen far more retcons than organic changes to the existing gameworld.

And the docs pour cement over the top of your roleplay far more than they help "achieve greatness".

Take for example all supported clans. Can you become the top? No. You'll be force stored if you ever rise to any point where you do anything more than take orders from vNPC's.

There's literally a hard ceiling to all your game activities, which I find to be spirit crushing. I know I am not likely to ever live long enough to achieve greatness with most of my characters, but it bothers me that there's literally not any way to do it. And don't bother to counter that argument with something you witnessed happening in 2005. I'm talking about the gameplay from the past couple of years.

It's more than a little bit stifling. It's sort of like playing in a sandbox ... at the beach. So much MORE sand out there but you're supposed to stay in your small box.




Riev

  • Posts: 4796
Re: How pious are people?
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2017, 01:29:50 PM »

In my limited time here, I've seen far more retcons than organic changes to the existing gameworld.

And the docs pour cement over the top of your roleplay far more than they help "achieve greatness".

Take for example all supported clans. Can you become the top? No. You'll be force stored if you ever rise to any point where you do anything more than take orders from vNPC's.

There's literally a hard ceiling to all your game activities, which I find to be spirit crushing. I know I am not likely to ever live long enough to achieve greatness with most of my characters, but it bothers me that there's literally not any way to do it. And don't bother to counter that argument with something you witnessed happening in 2005. I'm talking about the gameplay from the past couple of years.

It's more than a little bit stifling. It's sort of like playing in a sandbox ... at the beach. So much MORE sand out there but you're supposed to stay in your small box.

Not very much on topic, but to respond:

I think part of this is because at certain ranks in the game, the gameworld takes what you say and do MUCH more seriously, and you have a greater impact on the world than our volunteer army of staffers is willing or capable of supporting.

The more important you are, the more you affect the world. Despite that being what some of us want, those actions aren't supported. Its like playing in a sandbox, at the beach, because your parents can't possibly keep an eye on you -and- your 5 siblings unless they corral you.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.