Author Topic: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors  (Read 3780 times)

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2580
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM »
Why does every city have the same currency?  Its the Allanaki obsidian coin.  I think it would make festivals (fairs) More viable if there were different currencies normally and then at the fair everyones coin is worth the same.   I don't like the idea of it being illegal for some to have a certain currency though, just make it harder to come by.

I think it has to do with the Nakki occupation of Tuluk...or something.
Shade, profits, and George Bush did 9/11

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1870
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2017, 03:23:02 PM »
I remember hearing stories to the effect the now destroyed city of  Mal Krain used to have it's own currency, or bank, or something. But that was a long time ago.

Riev

  • Posts: 4793
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2017, 05:12:18 PM »
Tuluk, for a time, tried to have its own currency that was controlled by the Kassigarh, I think, but it never quite took.

Coins are supposed to be your purchasing power for water, the most required resource in the Known. I'd be fine if that stayed, but Vouchers were used for like... GMH custom orders, could be turned in for favor, and/or nobles/templars could use them to purchase silks, armies, and slaves.
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Kryos

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2017, 04:59:12 AM »
I firmly believe that the needed changes with coins and economy is adhering to the setting in which the economy is rooted:  scarcity.

People who are not Templars, nobles, GMH family, or high ranking servants of such people, simply should not have access to a plethora of coins.  The concept of dealing in thousands of coins should be baffling and mystifying to almost anyone.  The concept of having access to work or wear silk as anything but a noble or the GMHs that clothe them should be outlandish and impossible. 

Scrappy, non uniform, worn down armor, crummy weapons made of bone or chipped obsidian are what any who are First Troopers, Sergeants of the Byn, senior privates+  in the Arm, or elite members of House battle groups and commanders should have access too.  An elegant, durable, reliable weapon with a gem in the pommel?  A pipe dream and life savings for the common peon.  a hard day's work nets you 50 coins, 10 to put up the beast that carried you, 10 to quench the thirst you drew up, 5 for that scrap of scrab meat from the grocer, 15 allocated to the hole in the wall with enough space to lay on a cot.  Leaves you with 10 coins in your pocket, and only needing 45 more to pick up that ""fancy" stone hammer you saw in Salarr's common shop.

So now, when that noble smiles at you and says, "All you have to do is tell me what you hear," and pushes 100 coins your way, you're looking at all the motivation one needs.  And a job that offers 200 coins a month, colors to show you're better than others, and having to deal with none of that bullshit?  Literally to die for.

editing in:  I realize that this is, unfortunately, a sweeping suggestion.  If you do some, but not all of it, the impact and value to the game is lost, and things are simply muddied.  But I believe the quote goes, "No more half measures."



« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 05:21:00 AM by Kryos »

Dar

  • Posts: 1168
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2017, 09:21:46 AM »
That's very nice, but borderline impossible and due to nature of the game, will cause only problems and a significant loss of playability.

Having the 'noble' currency is really the best option. And one that I think is codedly possible. It also solves most of these problems and encourages gameplay tremendously.

Scarcity is nice for theme. But if you plan to keep Arm a mud instead of a Mush, its not really feasable.

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2017, 09:28:01 AM »
The problem, Kryos, is that all your numbers are off. Even the cheapest scrap of mystery meat you can get is 14 sid. You need to eat like five of them to get full. Your average Byn Runner is making even less than that, usually zero (but is fed and watered) and usually kitted out in the way you describe. Your average hole in the wall is a good deal more expensive. Your mount costs like 3-4 times your figure to stable. Your numbers don't even leave enough to afford a mug of ale.
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Riev

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2017, 09:31:10 AM »
Scarcity is nice for theme. But if you plan to keep Arm a mud instead of a Mush, its not really feasable.

Go more into that, because I'm not sure what you mean.

I think that scarcity as a theme can continue with a secondary "elite" form of currency. The virtual world is supposed to be economically based around water because when the game first came to life, it was a desert world and water being a currency sounded awesome. But the way the political climate has gone in game, I don't think that Borsail is the Premiere House of Allanak because they have more access to water.

I would honestly suggest that staff come together and try and formulate a reason for a new currency to be spread among the elite. A reason Nenyuk would support this new currency, the backing power of elite vs. commoner currency, etc etc. It may be quite a change, but I think it would allow commoners to "have tens of thousands of coins" but not be able to do much with it besides paying the Byn or getting "okay" sets of armor or furniture. If you want a Kadian-made upholstered armchair, you better have the clout/political backing to do it, as enforced by not having access to that currency unless its granted upon you.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Dar

  • Posts: 1168
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2017, 09:42:00 AM »
In a mush, such concepts as hunger, thirst, resources, hunting, grabbing, sifting, majority of player versus world actions are mostly in the background. They are virtual. They are color.

In a mud, all of those are coded actions. Availability of which influence the state of grebbers, hunters, and merchants. In this situation, scarcity is nigh impossible. Opulence is difficult, full of dangers, but achievable. Scarcity would come only from purposeful intention of player himself

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2017, 10:08:16 AM »
One potential problem is that tailoring the difficulty and investment of effort required for certain goals to a particular type of player's optimal state is to be prohibitively discouraging to anyone "below the bar". Not that this is what anyone is trying to say, but the end effect is basically "shut everyone out of the game but people like me". Not everyone is going to have an uninterrupted time to go out salting all day to get larges and larges like Amos the grebber.
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If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

Riev

  • Posts: 4793
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2017, 10:22:46 AM »
One potential problem is that tailoring the difficulty and investment of effort required for certain goals to a particular type of player's optimal state is to be prohibitively discouraging to anyone "below the bar". Not that this is what anyone is trying to say, but the end effect is basically "shut everyone out of the game but people like me". Not everyone is going to have an uninterrupted time to go out salting all day to get larges and larges like Amos the grebber.

No, but this suggestion would lower the purchasing power of those that do. Whereas right now, with the right amount of time and coded skills, someone can make a large an in game day and just hoard it. Ten large in the bank? Sure! And maybe they use that for the Byn, maybe they dole it out to people, but in the end, that kind of coin should be going to Nobility who can use it to buy slaves, build buildings, improve things for themselves/family/the city (in that order!)

Right now, I could have 10k in my bank account and have all the best 7000 coin spears from Salarr I want. With the suggested system, I can only buy something that valuable with a different currency, granted to me by those in power, who have the political and social backing TO provide them. I can't just go out salting for a couple days and buy all the armor I want, I need to impress SOMEONE, somewhere along the line.

I don't know HOW, but GMHs would have to have need of both coin, and favor/vouchers. I think it would also open up a possibility of re-selling vouchers through the Black Market/Guild/Rinth/etc, where a noble is killed not because they're a noble, but because they had a bunch of vouchers on them and they're worth more than 4000 coins for some meat and water.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

evilcabbage

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2017, 10:35:24 AM »
^
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Dar

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2017, 10:46:49 AM »
Yup.

Simply pay the Nobles's stipends in noble currency and allow them to be the 'only' sources of it.  What happens after will be for the rest of the gameworld.

The GMH will sell items of particular value 'only' for noble currency. Due to its scarcity, the Templars will value bribes in noble currency a lot more. Whether from the Nobles themselves, or from others who managed to accrue that currency via various methods that directly, or indirectly involved nobility. Nobility thus gains a lot more influence then they do now. More purchasing power, more influence, ability to be more rewarding to others.

Have you ever witnessed a Breed Ranger who knew how to greb diamonds/rare poisons/artifacts to be more influential then a GMH agent, or even worse ... a Noble. I have and always found it abominable. They were more valued then a Noble, and quiet often ... richer then that noble. With Noble Currency, that problem solves itself. The breed can be swimming in coin, but unless he invests in some other service, or pays all that wealth to criminals, he will still be unable to procure all that fancy gear, or favor.

I do not know if it's codedly possible. And I guess, it takes a lot of number crunching and work. But there is definitely a lot of benefits to that concept, and ... none of the disadvantages that I can think of.

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2017, 10:54:14 AM »
Yeah, agreed. Noble currency ftw. It enforces scarcity of high-grade goods, reinforces the value of procuring the favor of the rich and powerful, and the representation of the wealth of the nobility. I suppose I'd ask "Well, what about Luir's?" but I'm sure vouchers will make their way there, or perhaps Merchant Houses could have their own vouchers.

Plus it opens up the prospect of playing a scheming elven rinthi currency manipulator.
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

Riev

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2017, 11:00:09 AM »
Yeah, agreed. Noble currency ftw. It enforces scarcity of high-grade goods, reinforces the value of procuring the favor of the rich and powerful, and the representation of the wealth of the nobility. I suppose I'd ask "Well, what about Luir's?" but I'm sure vouchers will make their way there, or perhaps Merchant Houses could have their own vouchers.

Plus it opens up the prospect of playing a scheming elven rinthi currency manipulator.

As it relates to Luir's... most "tribal" groups only trade in coin because that's what most of the trade IS done in. The few I've played have always preferred to trade you two carru hides for a kryl shell, or whatever seems about right. Trade doesn't have to be solely in coin, and I admit its not an EASY solution to come up with, but I think its worth this discussion.

However, lets play the other side. Other than work involved (coding, coming up with an IC reason for the change), why wouldn't this work?

Requiring PC Nobles to spend, or not, this new currency might be some added pressure to be around and available.
It may make them feel like vending machines for people who do work for them.
If they are the source of these vouchers, can Nobles not spend it on themselves? Will Templars have access only from Nobility?
Are vouchers only for high-end GMH gear? If so, should those with access to these vouchers have other perks? (Different Arboreteum food, etc)

Anything else that'd really hard-block the institution of something like this? Does it not fit the theme of the world?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2017, 11:10:25 AM »
Yeah, agreed. Noble currency ftw. It enforces scarcity of high-grade goods, reinforces the value of procuring the favor of the rich and powerful, and the representation of the wealth of the nobility. I suppose I'd ask "Well, what about Luir's?" but I'm sure vouchers will make their way there, or perhaps Merchant Houses could have their own vouchers.

Plus it opens up the prospect of playing a scheming elven rinthi currency manipulator.

As it relates to Luir's... most "tribal" groups only trade in coin because that's what most of the trade IS done in. The few I've played have always preferred to trade you two carru hides for a kryl shell, or whatever seems about right. Trade doesn't have to be solely in coin, and I admit its not an EASY solution to come up with, but I think its worth this discussion.

However, lets play the other side. Other than work involved (coding, coming up with an IC reason for the change), why wouldn't this work?

Requiring PC Nobles to spend, or not, this new currency might be some added pressure to be around and available.
It may make them feel like vending machines for people who do work for them.
If they are the source of these vouchers, can Nobles not spend it on themselves? Will Templars have access only from Nobility?
Are vouchers only for high-end GMH gear? If so, should those with access to these vouchers have other perks? (Different Arboreteum food, etc)

Anything else that'd really hard-block the institution of something like this? Does it not fit the theme of the world?

Already in some areas GMHs will not sell certain goods to commoners, you simply cannot buy them from the house unless you are of the proper station. This protects customers from wrath on high, as well as the house itself. You can however sometimes find them being sold from a vendor. Noble vouchers would not change who goods are exchanged with very much, but it would be a higher grade of currency.

Since the Templarate is, according to the documention, reliant upon the wealth of noble houses in order to push their efforts, then I would assume they would only receive them as bribes from the nobility and those fortunate or dastardly enough to acquire them through other means.

It looks like a great idea to me, but it would take some individuals much more talented than I in certain fields a good deal of time and effort to implement correctly. That's the one flaw I can spot, though I do like the concept.

EDIT: Nobles would not be required to spend them. Employees (official or not) who do well may be rewarded with them as a sign of their Lady or Lord's favour. Nobles would be free to spend or hoard them as they see fit, preferably spend on items or as bribes to facilitate them seeping into the economy. Voucher piles would be more sensible to carry weight-wise than trying to cart ten thousand coins around. Voucher supply would at any time be limited to the generosity (or untimely demise) of the noble PCs provided with them, or possibly the presence of a master-counterfeiter.

If they feel like vending machines, well, spread the love around the playerbase.

The difficult thing would be refiguring vendors to accept them, however, one only need currency exchanges in towns and outposts. This would increase the viability of criminal and violent enterprises by reducing the need to utilize a bank, increasing the amount of valuable loot individuals can feasibly carry. I would posit that banks can accept them as deposits, but will only return coin on the perceived value of the vouchers upon deposit (so by depositing them you lose them permanently), and spot and reject counterfeit vouchers, possibly alerting the Templarate.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:28:33 AM by Grapes »
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Riev

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2017, 11:22:45 AM »
I know Salarr has House-specific arms and armor that they deal in, that can't be sold to people.
In the past they've been told "no more than <x> of these specific item to be sold per IG month" to try and artificially limit things.
I don't know if Kurac/Kadius have House-specific things, maybe instruments and very intensely-specific gear, but I don't know.

My concern is that this Noble Currency would need to be backed by SOMETHING. Coin is supposed to be backed by water-purchasing power, but Noble Currency would have to be backed by like... slave buying power, or Senate Favor or something. I don't know, it'd have to be something tangible, I think, for Nenyuk to possibly peddle in it.

There would also need to be some sort of hard delineation on what Noble Currency can buy. Does Salarr only sell gurth shell and leather, or scrab shell armor unless you have some sort of Noble Currency? Do Nobles pay for Byn work in Noble Currency AND coin, so that Runners/Troopers can still afford booze? Does Kadius ONLY sell their famed alcohols for Noble Currency?

I think it could be wonderful but its an entire system that would take a lot of discussion, and as we all know, change comes slow.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1870
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2017, 11:33:25 AM »
As they sell high end goods and collect this new high end currency, will merchant houses have a legitimate need/use for the currency, or will they end up just stockpiling it?

Grapes

  • Posts: 161
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2017, 11:46:24 AM »
As they sell high end goods and collect this new high end currency, will merchant houses have a legitimate need/use for the currency, or will they end up just stockpiling it?

Without going into too much IC detail, I, personally, foresee that everyone will want such currency, as it will be the most viable means of bribing angry Templars to get off your back, or get on someone else's. The way I perceive it working is that Merchant house receiving them for goods and services will be free to stockpile or spend it as they see fit, but every action, or lack of action comes with consequences, some positive, some negative. The scarcity will come into play when players exchange existing vouchers for coin in order to purchase from NPC vendors that only sell goods in coin, as the exchanged vouchers will effectively get tossed in Nenyuk's money silo, never to return, where Scrooge McDuck will proceed to swim in it.

The idea is to reflect the wealth of individuals and organizations of status while Amos the grebber is told, "In this particular situation, your coin is near worthless".
Quote from: Is Friday
If you ever hassle me IC for not playing much that means that I'm going to play even less or I'll forever write you off as a neckbeard chained to his computer. So don't be a dick.

Riev

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2017, 11:52:31 AM »
"We only take British money, so sing a song, or six-pence."

Admittedly, there would have to be a Noble Currency sink of some kind that even the GMH's would be keen on utilizing. Whether it be for slave purchases, maybe they pay it back to Fale for them to sponsor a party in the GMH's honor... maybe the GMH's use that Noble Currency to buy a gladiator slave or two. Its not UNHEARD of for Lord Templars to be named from the GMHs, maybe for an incredible cost, one could be nominated from their ranks, which would elevate the GMH for providing such fine stock.

Yes, there would need to be something that "everyone" would want to spend the currency on, not just allowing GMH to stockpile while Nobles earn it at some pre-determined interval. I would suggest maybe a Noble Quarter Currency Market, where only Noble Currency is accepted, but Nobles and their aides can buy banners/standards in their house image and color, or unique-to-the-house items that are loaded up and rotated every IC year. Then nobles would have to decide between spending their currency on things for themselves, slaves and favor for their family, or spending the currency on the Byn or a GMH custom craft.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Brokkr

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2017, 11:59:25 AM »
If the Allanak currency is a commodity currency based on water, does Allanak have enough water to back it all up?  A key consideration for inflation/deflation with commodity currencies.

I can't think of another commodity that is rare enough to have value yet common enough to back a currency, so a second one would likely have to be a fiat currency.  And given there would likely, through official or unofficial means, be an exchange rate...you are back to what is the point (especially given all the effort that would be involved)?

nauta

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2017, 12:05:44 PM »
I like what staff did with the Tan Muarki vendor recently introduced in the last few months: you can purchase things either with sid or barter with them at a set amount.

In my opinion, I think 'social capital' should have much more reach than actual capital in Zalanthas.  This is actually reflected in PC decisions sometimes. So, for example, Salarr/Kadian Merchant PCs won't bother selling to some no name grebber, since it is a waste of their time.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Riev

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2017, 12:09:01 PM »
If the Allanak currency is a commodity currency based on water, does Allanak have enough water to back it all up?  A key consideration for inflation/deflation with commodity currencies.

I can't think of another commodity that is rare enough to have value yet common enough to back a currency, so a second one would likely have to be a fiat currency.  And given there would likely, through official or unofficial means, be an exchange rate...you are back to what is the point (especially given all the effort that would be involved)?

This is precisely what I keep wondering about, myself. Is there another commodity that can be as, or more, rare than that. Perhaps the Noble Currency is actually based on metal purchasing power, be it silver, copper, steel, etc. Granted, it'd still be rare as hell, but each Noble Currency item is backed by some sort of metal reserve? Even if it takes 4000 Noble Currency to buy a silver ankle bell, that's still a commodity backing, that is more in line with Nobility, and not as "necessary" as the coin to water ratios.
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Brokkr

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Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2017, 02:52:23 PM »
One of the things necessary for a fiat currency is being able to convert it into the commodity.  The problem with metal is that the convertability wouldn't exist, or shouldn't.

The other problem is that the Noble Houses are funded via taxes.  If those taxes are on the regular currency, how is the noble currency created?  Since you actually have to increase the supply of the commodity available for conversion, in order to increase the money supply for a commodity currency.

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1870
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2017, 03:00:45 PM »
A noble house currency could be created and controlled by a body of noble houses that would honor the currency and back it with the collective offerings of the participating noble houses (slaves/wine/political favors/other things noble houses can do). In a way it might be like buying stock in a noble house (or all of the participating noble houses).
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 03:02:44 PM by Molten Heart »

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2580
Re: Broken Economics and NPC Vendors
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2017, 03:30:33 PM »
I'm mostly opposed to the idea of another 'cool kid currency' because I feel like it would have the same thing that regular currency has already.

"oh no templar whats his face is mad at me, I'll throw money at him"
Except he doesn't want your coin, or your 'I sucked a noble's dick' coin either, as he either has his own or whatever he can buy with it doesn't make him hate you less. Though I guess that isn't the fault of the system but a part of players being individuals, I just don't see the real point of another currency, even if it is backed by something else.

Being backed by metal actually makes kinda sense and would be cool as fuck, simply because 'I can buy metal or exchange it with this', but as previously stated by daddystaff-kun that it would be viable.

I kind of liked what Dark Sun did with their currency and prices on metal where everything was so god awful expensive you would need more coin than you could physically carry, as a half giant I think, to buy something made of metal.

But in Dark sun metal was actually more common than it is in Arm, so a metal backed currency doesn't seem right to me. I like the idea of slave backed currency but eh.

You could flat out just make a currency and call it 'Highlord loves me' money.
Shade, profits, and George Bush did 9/11