Author Topic: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.  (Read 5276 times)

Delirium

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  • Posts: 11841
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2017, 11:55:40 PM »
Dude. Chill out. Go for a walk outside. Play some checkers. Pet a kitten.
Will they tell your story in the end?
Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6087
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2017, 12:05:20 AM »
I think he's saying what I was talking about with the 'Just trust us' being valid in the beginning, but when the behavior continues over a long period of time in directions that...frankly...always receive this backlash, you kinda start to lose patience.

In a place where we admittedly don't have much in the way of options to combat this, speaking out more loudly tends to feel like a course of action that needs to be done.

BUT.  Sorry dude, I don't agree that an angry tirade without even an attempt of logically explaining it out for other players to agree with is going to get you much more than getting put in the corner.  For as much as people say I'm confusing, I at least get +1's from the people who read it in a way that lines up with their thinking as well.  Yours is just a hard attacking front with nothing to actually persuade anyone.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2017, 12:50:27 AM »
I think he's saying what I was talking about with the 'Just trust us' being valid in the beginning, but when the behavior continues over a long period of time in directions that...frankly...always receive this backlash, you kinda start to lose patience.

In a place where we admittedly don't have much in the way of options to combat this, speaking out more loudly tends to feel like a course of action that needs to be done.

BUT.  Sorry dude, I don't agree that an angry tirade without even an attempt of logically explaining it out for other players to agree with is going to get you much more than getting put in the corner.  For as much as people say I'm confusing, I at least get +1's from the people who read it in a way that lines up with their thinking as well.  Yours is just a hard attacking front with nothing to actually persuade anyone.

Heh. Last time I tried persuasive, I ended up with about 14 pages of shitposting and a locked thread. Polite doesn't work on this board. Neither does reason or logic. But hey, you want one? Fine. Calling what happened a bad day is idiotic when its basically the theme of the entire board. Being sneered at, censored and ignored from above is the norm on these boards, and its telling when the most positive person posting in this thread ends their post with "And hey, they haven't locked this thread yet, thats a good sign!". This isn't a bad day, its a POLICY staff has had for the entirety of my time here, and I'm fucking sick of this 'have some sympathy!' bullshit. I'm sure the staff are decent enough people. But they're just objectively terrible leaders and administrators. They don't have the slightest fucking clue on how to engage in PR, or the value of transparency, or really even game design. And that'd be fine, but its coupled with an inability to learn or ask. And everytime its brought up, the same whining karma-fishing 'WELL WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, THEY'RE UNDER ATTACK CONSTANTLY!", as if people disliking staff just popped up out of fucking nowhere with no basis, and wasn't a decades-long backlash of a salt the earth policy so thorough it spawned an entire secondary community. I'm done being nice. If you can't deal with the stress of leading, step down from your position. Its really that simple. Staff and the playerbase are both toxic, but only one group is actively killing the game.

Kalden

  • Posts: 862
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2017, 01:39:57 AM »
It seems like they've actually made a lot of effort. There's some funky stuff behind the scenes, which feels like it's kind of about hurt feelings.

Actually, it seems like most of the staffers are fairly low-drama. They churn out some cool coded features and let the players do their thing... which is why it's kind of surprising that it feels like the more sensitive and potentially dramatic ones are at the top. Maybe that's just an appearance, but I generally have had a good experience from requests over the past year.

And by the way, I'm not a fan of the phrase "neckers" either, and I think it was worth raising a discussion about it. Never occurred to me that it might have another meaning, but I just always thought it sounded awkward.

ghanima

  • Posts: 78
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2017, 02:14:22 AM »
its telling when the most positive person posting in this thread ends their post with "And hey, they haven't locked this thread yet, thats a good sign!". This isn't a bad day, its a POLICY staff has had for the entirety of my time here, and I'm fucking sick of this 'have some sympathy!' bullshit.

For my part, I'm not telling anyone to have some sympathy. I was just responding to the notion that the game is going to fizzle out and basically die in two years time and why I don't think that's going to happen. My frustration over the past several years was largely with the inability to accomplish anything in game, to even have a goal that wasn't knocked down the moment I'd mention it in a report. I don't feel like that is the all prevailing attitude any longer. But ultimately these things fall down to the individual. It could be that I'm just dealing with the right individuals lately (but I'm more hopeful that there has been a staff wide attempt toward improvement overall and that it's not just "a few good apples").

In the case of this thread being locked, it was usually a specific individual with the tendency to lock them. Maybe the reason it's not locked is because that individual is taking a reported break? I'm just saying, the thread locking thing is not a staff wide behavior (or this thread would have surely been locked already).

Also, I agree that if you essentially insult the entire community, especially if you're in a position of authority, the right thing to do is show a little humility and apologize. Publicly.

And I'll repeat, I think it's a very good sign that this thread has not been locked and Asche has been allowed to voice his opinions. There's a tendency to point the finger at staff but I also assign a good deal of blame to us, the players. Particularly those who are eager to silence Asche for daring to be upset. There are other posters who use swear words quite liberally but have a history of posting only those things that agree with the majority GDB perspective. How is Asche any different and why should he be silenced just because his swear words aren't in agreement with the majority GDB perspective? Let the man vent already, people!

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 541
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2017, 05:56:14 AM »
It would be nice for there to be an official apology. I'm not saying it was anyone's fault but the offending staff member's, but when you just let it hang there it reinforces the perception that no matter what happens, staff will always, always cover for their own. That perception, right or wrong, is why a lot of people don't even bother putting in staff complaints, because they see it as pointless at best and asking for trouble at worst, kind of like a commoner complaining to the Templarate that Lord Borsail was mean to them.

I know everyone has bad days, but as Riev said on the thread about slurs, staff's words have more weight than any player's. Some pretty mean things were said and accusations were made that staff know for a fact are false. The statements were edited out, but I'm sure they're still being passed around and discussed, much more so than if the statements were made by a disgruntled player.

I don't really expect to see any kind of public apology, though. I know by now that that's not how staff operate. I'm not even disappointed with that fact, really. I don't hold all staff responsible for what an obviously rogue staff member who is now (at least temporarily) an ex-staff member said. I also don't need to be told that what was said was wrong, hurtful, and damaging. It'd just be nice to have a sign that staff aren't hopelessly tribal--that they aren't just going to say, "Who are you to smear the name of the Noble House Borsail?"

This isn't about whether players are just as bad or if they have it coming because they're so mean and critical. I'm sure it does indeed get old to be blamed for things that aren't your fault, to have your actions picked apart on third party boards, to be subjected to (sometimes petty) complaints just for doing your best to donate your time to the playerbase. But in the end, an angry player has only so much power. Angry players can't force store staff avatars, or dock staff karma, or GDB/game ban staff. The most they can do is flail around impotently on the GDB, in wishes, or in the request tool, and staff have the power to close any request, lock any thread, ban a player from wishing or even using the request tool, or dish out a GDB ban. Players' words, too, only have so much power, because they aren't in a position of authority. Each angry player is just one of hundreds of players, current and former, with one opinion among a veritable Silt Sea of opinions.

A Producer's words, on the other hand, matter. When a Producer talks, people listen, because they were not only chosen to be staff, they were chosen to be the highest ranking level of staff, basically serving as the mouthpiece of the game and the official positions of the staff. That is not to say that every opinion spoken by a Producer is necessarily held by the rest of the staff, and in this case I'm fairly certain this particular opinion isn't. But it still sends an unfortunate message when other staff are unwilling to distance themselves from those remarks, or correct the ones that were false and/or damaging. It makes us all wonder: how bad does it have to get before they're willing to speak out against one of their own? If a Producer publicly calling many of us disgusting and using his position as a GDB mod to sling accusations at us based on our IP addresses isn't enough to inspire staff to speak out against his actions, then what is?

Maybe letting this thread going on without locking it is staff's unspoken compromise. They won't apologize, but letting us talk it out among ourselves is their way of saying we deserve to feel upset. If so, at least that's something.

I don't expect for a moment that my comment will inspire any kind of action. I don't even really know why I'm posting it. Insomnia, I guess, and an inability to shut the fuck up when it would clearly benefit me to do so.

P.S. Yes, I've already put in a staff complaint, and I appreciated the response. Again, I'm not personally upset with any current staff, and I don't hold what Nergal said against any of them whatsoever. I'm just giving my advice on what I think could be done to jump start the healing process and fight that perception of staff as fiercely tribal and protective of their own no matter how egregious the offense.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 06:01:33 AM by sleepyhead »

Adhira

  • Producer
  • Posts: 2387
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2017, 10:55:17 AM »
This general discussion board, as far as I'm concerned is just that.

My own personal opinion is that you are welcome to post here with your own personal opinions, as long as what you are posting follows the rules of the forum as noted here:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html

While there are posts in this thread that are technically against the forum rules I'm leaving this to our moderators to make decisions on whether a post should stay.  We have player moderators and I would rather that they use their judgement as to what is appropriate for this community.

As to the tone of the posts - much like in the real world, if someone is approaching me in an aggressive manner and peppering his sentences with swear words then I would choose not to engage.

I don't in general read the gdb unless there is a thread such as the karma discussion which is bringing up interesting points on a project I am involved in. I don't intend to take up the habit of doing so. If you want statements or attention from Producers then you are best served communicating with us through other methods.  If you'd rather just discuss your issues or problems with the Producers or Staff with other players, then the forum will work for you.

Sleepyhead - as I said in reply to your complaint request I'm sorry that there was a post that targeted you and your boyfriend with information that was not factual. That's not ok.  It was removed immediately after I said that the gdb posting was inappropriate. I know this doesn't make you feel any better as the screen shot is out there circulating. I can't do anything about that.

Armageddon staff aren't perfect, we aren't even close. We aren't homogenous, we all have different thoughts, approaches and trigger points. We have tried to instill a level of professionalism on the staff of this game and our responses. We fall down, and fall down often. Much of that can be attributed to the support that we get from each other.

My role is part of a team, and part of a cohort of three that weigh in to make the final decisions, and yes, set the tone for this game. I try very hard to ensure that I do not dominate or put my own personal style or values on others in my team. That issues that are important to them are able to be pursued. We are not always in agreement, but I have always felt that I have an obligation to be supportive.

In this instance we had a staff member who was putting in a lot of time and effort to the mud. He was doing so in a vacuum, having been essentially operating alone for some time. He reacted in a way that was inappropriate. That part is on me. So I apologize for not supporting Nergal, and for not supporting our staff and playerbase when they needed it. I apologize for anyone that was offended, felt targeted or has been driven from the game because of this.

For a personal comment: I have read a comment that the most dramatic staff seem to be at the top of the Armageddon hierarchy. Speaking purely for myself I consider myself in life to mostly be a drama free zone. Sometimes things irk me, sometimes I get annoyed, sometimes I'll make a comment, but in general I like to sort my shit out up front, in person and in the moment. I don't need drama, I don't need to create it or engender it.  I don't care to hold grudges, I'm old enough and have been through enough to understand that life is to short to keep stressing over the little things. You'll find that in my approach to handling issues on the game. I will try and address the concern and then move on. I realize this isn't everyones modus operandi, some of you like to talk it out a lot more than I do.

My intention and my goal right now is to be more active in assisting staff. Making sure that they have the tools and support they need to be able to tell great stories with you all in the game.

I'd love to see the player focus back on the game, but that's your choice. The board is here for discussion, and you are welcome to discuss as you please.





"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 541
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2017, 11:11:35 AM »
Adhira, thank you. It means a lot that you are willing to say that publicly. It does help. I'm not really that upset anymore and I hope it didn't seem like I was pressing the issue unnecessarily. I think it'll mean a lot to my partner, too.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6087
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2017, 11:11:52 AM »
I think the GDB is a great tool.  It's a great place to read about other player's stances on things.  But it comes with a certain acknowledgement:  If there is a place where people are posting their thoughts and ideas on a game where we have (sometimes vastly) different interpretations, it being up and in the open is up for criticism and is exposed to the opinion of others.

If there is one thing Nergal and some other staff members seem sensitive about, it is criticism.  The interpretation of it seems to jump from 0 to harassment in single steps, whether it be from a long post pointing out how something was mishandled, a short post that makes a jab at inconsistency, or a reply to an idea or reply that is made.  And that is simply not conducive to progress in our current platform.

Of all the comments that were made, the most disheartening to me was not 'I find you disgusting'.  It was:
Quote
I have tried my best to help the best of players, which I feel is a group that is rapidly shrinking in size.

I've spoken a lot in posts about how current staff's 'vision' with the game is not very inclusive of many player types.  The above is an acknowledgement of that.  Subjected to someone's perspective of what makes 'the best of players', and if that happens to be more social/patient players rather than achievement players or action players or even PvP oriented players, that is a vision based on exclusion rather than inclusion, which is not the Armageddon I know.  The Armageddon I know, and the Armageddon I believe more successful, is the one that promotes roleplay of all kinds and from all places, and it is only those who are actively out to hurt the game that find themselves on the shit end of a stick.

There's been other posts about that same thing.  That same feeling.  Often in different venues, but criticism all around.  Feedback on the direction of this vision.  And rather than absorb that, those people were just lumped into problem players, or 'not the best players' that had staff trying to make the game better for them.

The GDB may not be the most pleasant of places at all times, but it -is- a place to find out what consistently bugs other groups of players, or a place to find out what in the right minds of other players make them think other things are acceptable that you happen to find aberrant.  And as has happened for over a decade, you can drop your criticism of that acceptance, and find out just how other GDB'ers feel about such things.

The idea of asking for feedback, getting upset that people inferred it was a word ban, establishing with a single word response that it wasn't about banning but increasing awareness, then getting mad and doing the ban that insulted you is still just incredibly odd behavior, but not the truly bad point.  The truly bad point is complete non-acceptance of criticism, and completely willful ignorance that your vision is not being well received.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

valeria

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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2017, 11:53:08 AM »
This isn't directly related to Armaddict's most recent post, but it is kind of an offshoot that really ties in with "the game is the game and the gdb is the gdb."  There is a well-established sociologically phenomenon that, generally, the only people who are going to weigh on in an issue are the ones that strongly care one way or the other.  So even if you have ten or twelve people in a GDB thread saying 'do this, do that, this is a problem,' there are some 200+ unique accounts that log on a weekly basis.  While the ten or twelve people might look like a vast majority in a discussion topic, that does not necessarily mean that they are the actual majority, or even close to it.

FantasyWriter

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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2017, 12:24:02 PM »
Do you think it would be fair to say that the vocal portion -could- be a reasonably accurate depiction of the overall playerbase opinion on an issue?

That is how polls work, and as we saw in the presidential election, some very powerful and influential people seem to think that polling is very dependable (Gospel Truth, even) when this issue comes up, and it absolutely blew a lot of peoples minds to be reminded that polls are just polls.  They -can- be an accurate depiction of a communities beliefs, but they aren't, by nature, that.
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

valeria

  • Posts: 5690
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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2017, 01:48:33 PM »
Truly randomized polling and surveys are different than self-selection (which is what choosing to participate in any given GDB thread, or a GDB poll, or even the GDB itself is), and non-response (which is another type of bias that affects what I'm talking about).

I'm not saying that X or Y opinion isn't representative.  But what I am saying is that if you're basing a premise on how much GDB gripping has occurred about topic A or B, it's not necessarily or even likely a representation of the player base's opinions as a whole.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6087
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2017, 02:56:35 PM »
Quote
I'm not saying that X or Y opinion isn't representative.  But what I am saying is that if you're basing a premise on how much GDB gripping has occurred about topic A or B, it's not necessarily or even likely a representation of the player base's opinions as a whole.

There is also dwindling login numbers that are easily seen and long term trends that are not just gripes, but cycles of players with the same gripes rather than just those of us who are long-term and consistent.  There are players outright citing reasons for why they leave.  There is documentation of them in other places.

Sure, you can go with the aging playerbase reasoning, or other reasons, but at a certain point, you do have to kinda note that what looks like a duck is often a duck.  Not always, but often. Denial of it to 'stay the course' can be admirable or disastrous.

However, I'm also speaking in terms of other feedback on projects from the past, as well as dialogues about events in game that are not had in the GDB.  I've said it many times before; just because someone took the time to make the project doesn't make it an overall good impact on the game, nor does it mean it's working properly/within the scope of its originally stated intentions (an example of this being Desertman's critiques of the player clan system).  These are cases where criticisms of them, even in cases where demonstrations are in place, result in the claim of harassment rather than having any amount of legitimacy.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6087
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2017, 03:12:16 PM »
Total derail, but I'm sticking it here since this thread can come with some criticism, so I'll show some support as well.

Quote
Nergal and Oryx were working on a project with the goal of removing the ban from the majority of banned accounts. As of May, when Nergal was gathering information, we had 530 banned players out of 18011 total accounts (about 3% of accounts are banned).  This project is still unfinished but I intend to complete this. Essentially we are confirming our parameters for who should remain banned. At this moment we are looking to unban 466 of the 530 accounts. 

Adhira, I think this is marvelous and awesome and spectacular.  I only want the worst of people banned from the game; everyone else can and should be involved into the molding into more responsible players of their playstyle, so long as they aren't actively trying to stick a finger up in a big f u to the game and its precepts.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Kalden

  • Posts: 862
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2017, 04:40:29 PM »
Thanks Adhira - that's a rather reassuring and mature post. One little piece of feedback: could a link to the forum rules be put in the footer? I know it's stickied at the top of Staff Announcements but the more obvious and clear, the more people will take it seriously. Might also be worth linking to it at http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules

Completely understand being supportive of the initiatives of colleagues. The main thing for me is transparency and consistency in the practices and policies so everyone knows what to expect. Understandably, there's details out there being shared that the game policies discourage sharing - we all know that. Theoretically, any of us could have read them. But it's not worth the time to go out on a limb after those people.

Also, the main thing for me is how people are playing the game. I started this game back in 2003, and code details were always floating around. It's inevitable and in my opinion not that big of a deal; it doesn't really provide an incredible advantage, and it might even the playing field for newbies relative to veterans like myself. The other game that I spent a lot of time on, Shadows of Isildur, was open-source for the last couple years that I played and that didn't seem to affect things much.

Also, somewhat different but it would be nice if the staff could share some of their onboarding material and internal staff guidelines - and ideally place this somewhere other than Staff Announcements where it can be hard to dig up. I've had requests handled professionally with a focus on the context of the game world sometimes, and other times I've received messages which sounded more like "I don't like that so no, you can't do it". These types of inconsistencies are disheartening.

For example, a guideline could suggest that, to the extent possible, all requests by players to change the game world should be handled with responses that frame the burdens in IC terms rather than OOC concerns, and that when reaching for the exception (due to inflicting dramatic changes to the game, Storyteller effort, or what have you), the staffer should explicitly explain their reasoning for motivating their response with OOC concerns and consider alternative options where possible.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 04:51:31 PM by Kalden »

TheWanderer

  • Posts: 1496
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2017, 05:38:27 PM »
I'll precede this by saying I've basically glossed over the thread and have also opted out of cringing at certain grown adults angrily ranting about their archaic roleplaying games.

Game's the game, GDB is the GDB. But you're still interacting with the same people, the same community. They're intertwined whether you like it or not.

I'm sure someone will chime in to inform me the game has never been better and my opinion is inaccurate, and that pulling wavering numbers of 26-34 players online during peak is not indicative of a systemic problem, but here we go: Armageddon (boards and game) is currently plagued by a number of issues that are solvable but heavily involve delivering and accepting criticism, and then placing enough effort in maturely absorbing these things and adapting. This requires parties capable of handling such ideas without exploding into a fiery ball of hyper sensitivity and holding senseless grudges. Some of these criticisms should be levied toward staff, some toward players.

-----------

Here are a couple criticisms:
"I think staff should look at the current state of affairs and prioritize engaging, involving storytelling when things begin to wane - especially over karma and guild changes. While welcomed and appreciated, coded aspects are not the main draw of this game and I'd much prefer the 70 players at peak of yesteryear. As noted numerous times, big death spectaculars are nice, but there are a great many ways to introduce sources of conflict that don't fizzle out in an incredibly bloody day or two. I can genuinely say guild and karma changes do not excite me and do not inspire my personal interest.

On the other side of the coin, I've noted a fair share of leader PCs that mostly just sit around, mudsex, and wait for staff to give them things to do. I've witnessed these players fill valuable slots for several RL years before finally being removed by random death or storage. It's perhaps better to play as an ambitious self-starter when filling sponsored/leadership roles, not some reactionary type that merely waits for things to fall into his or her lap. Too many of these and nobody does anything and the burden piles on others.

But again, you could get these mainly reactionary types into motion by providing continual sources of conflict - valuable resources, famines, conflicting political parties or interests, etc.

One of these parties must pull slack when the other won't. It's far more ideal when both parties are making active, discernible contributions."

-----------

Yet the atmosphere surrounding the GDB and community at large makes offering opinions and cordially worded criticisms feel like a hopeless endeavor, and the boards -do- bleed over into the game. This hopelessness is partially because they've been repeated numerous times and ignored because people follow their own paths, alongside the worry that voicing an opinion is somehow going to result in grudges and stern rebukes. Eventually, you bottle enough of these opinions up and your frustrations with management of certain aspects boil over into a less than cordial request. Or post. Everyone's human.

Lastly, if there's questionable stuff going on with the boards, that also zaps enthusiasm for the world. I was irked when Desertman was banned - while I never played with nor interacted with the player, he obviously had some impact and was a self-starter for many years. I like self-starting, conversation-worthy players on principle alone, and it's annoying when they're banned because they join a political thread, discuss a differing opinion, and are cut from the community for it. Thicker skin, please. You are continually told not to air grievances with moderation choices on the GDB, but I had little interest in filing a complaint as I knew it would do absolutely nothing. Or it would just draw ire my way. Like I said, people generally aren't receptive to criticism and staff made their decision.

I'm going to assume that Dan guy suffered a similar fate. I don't know if he was actively playing, but still! People are entitled to opinions, even if those opinions ruffle your feathers. While I assume these players weren't banned from the game, it certainly puts a sour taste in your mouth. I wouldn't play if that was done to me.

It's hard for me to rationalize voting for this game when I've begun to silently and frequently disagree with how a lot of it is handled.     

If I started playing now as opposed to four or so years ago, I'd have been gone in a month or two. You know, unless I found that increasingly rare greatness I aspired to emulate when I was sixteen/seventeen and starting out. I do want to hit my stride again but like others, sometimes I feel I'm closing in on the end of my Arm career.

C'est la vie. I care about the game and I hope it rebounds, but acknowledging there's an issue is the first step to solving it.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 06:06:46 PM by TheWanderer »
Quote
Whatever happens, happens.

Is Friday

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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2017, 05:47:50 PM »
On the other side of the coin, I've noted a fair share of leader PCs that mostly just sit around, mudsex, and wait for staff to give them things to do. I've witnessed these players fill valuable slots for several RL years before finally being removed by random death or storage. It's perhaps better to play as an ambitious self-starter when filling sponsored/leadership roles, not some reactionary type that merely waits for things to fall into his or her lap. Too many of these and nobody does anything and the burden piles on others.

+1

My primary criticism with staff (none in particular, but as a whole) is allowing players to do nothing valuable in leadership roles. But it's hard to quantify because you can't know everything going on with each PC as an observer.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 05:57:50 PM by Is Friday »
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2017, 07:33:35 PM »
Communicate with us through a tool literally no one trusts to have any semblance of impact, and through discussion threads posted AFTER major changes that exist purely to pretend discussion is a thing when not a single one of them has impacted a decision of staff or policy on the mud in their entire existence.

I'm sure the players/moderators of a game who tagline includes murder and betrayal are genuinely offended by the use of coarse language, and aren't at all using that as a tool to avoid engaging an argument.

This is all very obviously sincere, and surely the start of a new path towards the game's improvement. 700th times the charm! Now we can move on to the important issues plaguing the game.

Like a fantasy slur sounding vaguely like nigger.

Delirium

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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2017, 09:01:18 PM »
Please at least attempt to be constructive rather than purely confrontational and negative, or I will be forced to moderate your posts. I've been holding off (as have, I imagine, other moderators) because we truly do want everyone to have a chance to state their case. Doing nothing but heap abuse and scorn will not make your case very well - if you have constructive suggestions, genuine suggestions, please make them. Otherwise, please Let It Go (tm).
Will they tell your story in the end?
Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2017, 09:20:12 PM »
Please at least attempt to be constructive rather than purely confrontational and negative, or I will be forced to moderate your posts. I've been holding off (as have, I imagine, other moderators) because we truly do want everyone to have a chance to state their case. Doing nothing but heap abuse and scorn will not make your case very well - if you have constructive suggestions, genuine suggestions, please make them. Otherwise, please Let It Go (tm).

The criticism is that empty promises we've heard a thousand times before is not the basis for a renewed faith that the process is going to spontaneously repair itself. The constant attempts to redirect the conversation to a private tool literally no one reading this thread believes impacts literally anything are easily seen through as an attempt to quell discussion. You know the request tool is a useless medium for facilitating communication, I know it, everyone on this board knows it. We know why they'd prefer the request tool. As frankly as possible, staff NEEDS to start actively communicating with the community ON THE BOARDS if they want to give the impression of genuinely wanting to improve. Talk about genuine efforts 'in the background' are recognized as the same empty promises they've always been. Transparency isn't hard. Communication isn't difficult. Sparing five minutes a day to post on the board and dramatically boost retention is a no-brainer. But it won't happen, because these good faith efforts I'm supposed to believe in don't exist, and everyone understands that.

This community is not as dumb as the staff thinks it is, and if they want to preserve the game, they need to understand that. This isn't abuse. This is blunt reality trying to breach a vacuum.

Refugee

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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2017, 10:21:55 PM »
I appreciate Adhira taking the time to post and it does make me feel more hopeful.  I'm gonna wait and see what happens next.


Dar

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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2017, 01:00:40 AM »
Seconded, or maybe thirded? Something 'ed' for sure. My gratitude and kudos to you Adhira for your post.




Asche. The post you created and certain truths that came out in it have actually made me quit the game for awhile. Not due to you, but some posts made on the thread you started. So in a way, as far as revealing truth one of your threads was on point. Having said that, the last .... whole .... bunch of your other posts are waaaay off point. Maybe I am misreading it? Maybe I'm not. But it feels like you're dancing around with a torch, eager to set the teetering house on fire, cackling gleefully no doubt.  Very exaggerated obviously, but not without a grain of truth. Maybe ease up on a pretty aggressive rhetoric. The style you choose to express your opinions in actually devalue those very opinions. Up to you. Depends on what you actually want to achieve. Convince others in your point of view, or just call everyone a Dumbo.

Jihelu

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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2017, 04:06:12 AM »
I agree with the man of wandering origins.

Asche

  • Posts: 84
Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2017, 09:36:04 PM »
Asche. The post you created and certain truths that came out in it have actually made me quit the game for awhile. Not due to you, but some posts made on the thread you started. So in a way, as far as revealing truth one of your threads was on point. Having said that, the last .... whole .... bunch of your other posts are waaaay off point. Maybe I am misreading it? Maybe I'm not. But it feels like you're dancing around with a torch, eager to set the teetering house on fire, cackling gleefully no doubt.  Very exaggerated obviously, but not without a grain of truth. Maybe ease up on a pretty aggressive rhetoric. The style you choose to express your opinions in actually devalue those very opinions. Up to you. Depends on what you actually want to achieve. Convince others in your point of view, or just call everyone a Dumbo.

I have a pretty hair-trigger temper for blatant dishonesty. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression I want to burn the house down. I rather enjoy the game, even if it gets progressively worse every year. You, and most of the people posting, have problems with my rhetoric. Literally no one has challenged it's content, though. And heres the thing? I'm not the only one who feels this way. Frankly, I'd argue my views tend to lean on the majority, even if the people who agree would rather not express it the way I do. But frankly? Those people aren't going to make their dissatisfaction more public than a farewell thread. They're just going to leave. The game is slowly going to die, and it'll be done with the whimper of 'try to be civil!'. I don't want single posts vaguely referencing more 'background improvements.'

I don't want blatant damage control and sympathy fostering. I want real, spelled out, and public policy changes made to increase staff accountability, transparency, and improve retention for the game. Adhira's post is none of that. Its the opposite of that. And if you let it be, its all you're going to get. There is a place for anger and malcontent. This is one of them. I want as many people actively angry as possible.

Is Friday

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Re: The Game is the Game. The GDB is the GDB.
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2017, 09:40:23 PM »
I want as many people actively angry as possible.
What causes you to have a bias for action and want to incite change does not equate to what others would like in order to be inspired for change. Some folks will just choose to not be involved in a bitter and angry mob mentality.

So while I empathize with your passion--your desired result is unlikely by trying to "rile up the crowd".
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.