Author Topic: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?  (Read 1951 times)

Harmless

  • Posts: 2628
The documentation is not very explicit in how day to day interactions between the sexes, of all the different social classes and backgrounds of Zalanthas. Sadly, this means that it is up to players to fill in those gaps. Inevitably a lot of "RL" seeps in to the roleplay, and immersion may suffer when the similarities are too uncanny for the setting to feel fantasy, to provide a properly fun and escapist experience for everyone.

BTW, I don't want to discuss pejoratives here. This is more about how one should react to issues of sex if they come up, and stay IC and theme-appropriate. After all, we don't want to completely remove sex from our RP; sexual tension, in particular, is often a fun flavor of RP to have, though it definitely isn't the only way to RP and there are a huge variety of personalities and backgrounds to choose from that don't require any particular gender or sexuality. This thread is more about learning how to play out that stuff appropriately when it does come up.

Here are some questions:

1. What is the average or common reaction a person would behave differently in public when they are sexually involved with someone?
2. Are certain attitudes towards a particular sex or sexuality present or absent among the various clans or social groups?
3. How should we respond IC without just breaking character if something that is borderline sexist is said, such as "She is acting that way because she is a woman." There have been a lot of awkward scenes where arguments about this are held IC and it doesn't seem to fit.
4. The themes that are played in the game are dependent on player preferences and the effects of numbers. For example, if Nak is particularly full of submissive female characters, then the impression that females should be submissive becomes pervasive. This shouldn't be the norm, though, and at times there is a rush of dominant, aggro women who kick ass and take names. This creates a problem when your character is a minority suddenly -- how do you stay IC when the docs state this shouldn't be the case?

The only answer I have to the above types of questions is that there is no answer. In other words, there is nothing documented about these things because there is not supposed to be anything special about being male or female. It's just your character's sexual organs, and otherwise you are roleplaying a Zalanthan. This is why in character creation, all the MUD asks you is "Is your character male or female?" Then moves on.

My point: If you were to take 100 random Zalanthan males and 100 random Zalanthan females, from the whole population of the world including every city and village, on average, any one personality trait would be equally present between the different genders. For example, the degree of aggressiveness, submissiveness, adventurousness, romanticism, creativity, or cockiness, all would be roughly equally present whether male or female. Within certain cultural groups in Zalanthas, it could be IC for that group to denigrate or elevate the status of a certain gender. Who you are as a person is more about where you were from and who raised you, than the fact that you were born with ovaries or testes, in Zalanthas. There may be fads in game one way or the other at times, but on average Zalanthas doesn't have many assumptions about being one sex or the other besides the parts. As players we need to keep this in mind so that we avoid falling into the trap of using RL prejudices or issues as the filler for our RP.
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Jihelu

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2017, 02:11:21 AM »
1: Can you rephrase this? Do you mean, "how do sexually active people behave differently?"?
2: I'm very confused that there aren't documented things that display actual sexism, especially within tribes. I get it, worlds hard. But even then, you generally divide stuff. Even if it's as simple as "The women commonly use archery because thats how that worked while the men use crossbows because they just like them, not natural strength." Or vice versa.
Hell, Tuluk sexually divided their Templarate with super powers.
3: I generally go "What the fuck does that have to do with anything" Or something among that nature. Or I wish all. Or I save it for a complaint and staff will generally fix it later. I try not to use OOC for conflict scenarios. I generally use it for funny scenarios of -something funny just happened with the code or something-
4: I have never really been in the 'minority'. I've played a semi-submissive man but I didn't just go around blushing and dropping things so I wasn't ever really thought of as 'strange'. Can't answer much on this.
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Melkor

  • Posts: 827
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2017, 02:37:07 AM »
It shouldn't, unless your character is chosing a mate. Not a partner, a mate with which to breed.
Not analogous to RL, but in this fantasy game, the rule is that the sexes are 100% equal in every way, save for reproductive organs. As far as I know, you still need opposite sexes in order to procreate.
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Refugee

  • Posts: 1573
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2017, 08:14:25 AM »
1.  I don't understand the question, sorry. 
2.  I would say all attitudes are present and legitimate to play but that the prevalent attitude would be that the genders are equally competent.
3.  If it happens IC, respond to it IC.  If some PC states a belief that women are weaker/emotional/whatever stupid generalization you want to insert, that's fine.  It doesn't mean it's so.  It means his PC is wrong.  PCs can be, should be, and are often wrong.  That's okay.  It's good.  People can come up with the craziest ideas and so can PCs, that makes them real.  The player should have a reason for it, but he doesn't have to play it out for our acceptance of his RP.  The PC can just be. 
4.  I would just...stay IC.  Whatever is going on (sounds like you mean something OOC like a sudden change in the kinds of PCs being portrayed), let your PC just keep on keeping on like they were.  If you want to respond to it at all, let your PC come up with some theory on why things are as they are and base your reactions on that.  It doesn't really have to make sense to anyone but your PC.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7455
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2017, 08:49:49 AM »
By and large, the citizens of the planet Zalanthas aren't aware of the concept of sexism.

It is possible that there exists individual citizens of the planet who have acquired sexist ideas/thoughts/behaviors.

The two sentences above can exist at the same time, and both be equally true.

My characters would likely pass it off as just some idiot whose mommy was weak and therefore he's formed the opinion that all women are weak. Or some dipshit whose boyfriend dumped her for a prettier, less intelligent woman, and has formed the opinion that pretty + stupid = more attractive to men than smart + plainlooking.

I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as there's some IC acceptance that the exceptions are not the rule.
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John

  • Posts: 4035
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2017, 09:31:02 AM »
I don't think calling everyone who uses offensive language directed at a female should be labeled a sexist (either on the character or player level) and docked karma or called a bad player.

Recently (I believe this may have been posted about on the GDB) a player was accosted by a player dwarf who wanted to steal her necklace. He was throwing around the word whore a fair bit. My character, had no dog in the fight and didn't care what happened until he noticed the female in question worked for House Borsail. He then proceeded to try to convince the dwarf to go away. He used the same language as the dwarf which meant he called the Borsail aide a whore himself. This was done by the character in an attempt to rationalise with the dwarf. The dwarf being a dwarf refused to budge because FOCUS and all that.

This was one instance where a player may be labelled a sexist because of the actions of their character DESPITE the character not having any actual sexist views.

Another more recent incident involved a female character (dunno if it was played by the same player, but it'd be pretty funny if it was) telepathically communicating with a different character of mine saying they don't want to be known as a whore. My character corrected the female character and said he doubted anyone would care if she was whoring herself out. What would be cared was that they were neglecting their duties and it was likely the female's employer would be unhappy to hear this (my character was trying to blackmail the female character). This was an instance where I took the time to ICly correct someone to say "there's nothing wrong with whoring".

If someone is behaving in a way that I feel involves them bringing their OOC prejudices in game, then I'd send through a player complaint. I don't think any grand sweeping decisions need to be made on what can and can't be said by characters in game. Overall sexism in game seems to be fairly minimal to non-existent.
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valeria

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2017, 10:26:28 AM »
Here are some questions:

1. What is the average or common reaction a person would behave differently in public when they are sexually involved with someone?
2. Are certain attitudes towards a particular sex or sexuality present or absent among the various clans or social groups?
3. How should we respond IC without just breaking character if something that is borderline sexist is said, such as "She is acting that way because she is a woman." There have been a lot of awkward scenes where arguments about this are held IC and it doesn't seem to fit.
4. The themes that are played in the game are dependent on player preferences and the effects of numbers. For example, if Nak is particularly full of submissive female characters, then the impression that females should be submissive becomes pervasive. This shouldn't be the norm, though, and at times there is a rush of dominant, aggro women who kick ass and take names. This creates a problem when your character is a minority suddenly -- how do you stay IC when the docs state this shouldn't be the case?

1) Likely depends on the person and specific relationship.  Some people are going to be all lovey dovey at bars, and others are going to be boffing solely on the DL, possibly because one of them is gross (gemmed, breed, mutant).
2) There is documentation that certain sexes are treated differently in certain tribal societies.  Barring that, and the former incarnation of the Tuluki templarate, no.
3) Call them out IC or ignore it?  However you'd react if someone said that breeds are actually wonderful people or something else equally nonsensical in the documentation.
4) I don't understand the question.

Harmless

  • Posts: 2628
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 08:20:15 AM »
I was in a state of profound sleep deprivation when I made the original post. I see there have been some nice posts regardless of my awful writing anyway so I am gonna just leave it as is or maybe edit it later. Thanks for your help and confirmation of ideas I had about this and some good examples too!
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tapas

  • Posts: 142
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2017, 10:35:43 PM »
I would avoid the "sexist" language altogether.

The ooc reality is that words like "bitch" or "cunt" are used as a cudgel to hit people for who they are. If you throw that around in game you might be able to claim plausible deniability by using the thermian argument. But that doesn't change the real world context that you are filtering into the game.

So just be a cool dude and avoid that bullshit plox.

tapas

  • Posts: 142
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2017, 10:48:33 PM »
I was in a state of profound sleep deprivation when I made the original post. I see there have been some nice posts regardless of my awful writing anyway so I am gonna just leave it as is or maybe edit it later. Thanks for your help and confirmation of ideas I had about this and some good examples too!

It's a discussion worth having and a discussion that will continually creep up along with other issues. I can say that I've been pretty annoyed with some of the ways my female characters have been treated.

And that's not to knock the success Armageddon has had in keeping the game friendly to all sorts of players with all sorts of lifestyles. But it bears continual discussion in the least.

BlittzOff

  • Posts: 14
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2017, 08:53:28 PM »
Can we stop the whole projecting characters to players thing that keeps popping up.

Just because someone is playing a very arsey, bad person with many flaws and prejudice does not mean they're doing some self-insert.
A perfect world with no bad people in it is a far-from-Armageddon world. In no way should you punish someone for being an example of that.

In a world where criminal women are sentenced to rape-by-dwarf death, where the life expectancy is short even though some people can live exceedingly long, and everything is horrible in general, surely some real-life bad themes would still seep in.

Maybe "bitch" isn't thematic because the canines aren't that common or something, but that is the only reason why someone shouldn't use it.

Maybe women in Arma don't have less muscle growth than men and the weakness prejudice isn't thematic either, but from my experience most human women and men are still sort of equivalent to the real-life counterparts.

Imagine if a player who played dwarves a lot suddenly started raving about little-people insensitivities in Arma driving him into OOC rage and demanding it be taken out.

Take every insult to your character, not you yourself, and respond IC however you see fit. The only time I can see an insult being inappropriate if it's just not thematic and has no link to anything in Arma.


This wasn't supposed to be an insult argument but here we are now.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7455
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2017, 09:15:03 PM »
Blittzof I tend to agree with you on everything you just said. In Armageddon, men and women are not THE SAME. They are equal in status and ability to succeed. That is all. Physiologically they ARE different. Females are still the child-bearers, and males are still the sperm-banks. Females - presumably - have the hormones necessary to become pregnant and bear young. It is absolutely positively plausible that females are capable of bitchy behavior - with the word totally intended to be aimed at females, specifically. That isn't sexist. It's biology. Just like females are the ones who end up breastfeeding. When was the last time you mudsexed with a male and a female, where it was the male who took the mul mix? It's almost always the female. Where are the scrab-intestine condoms? When was the last time you saw a male PC with a curvy figure, a feminine flare to their hips, and an impressively large pair of breasts? How "equal" are the sexes in Zalanthas, afterall?

Yes, bitch refers to a female, being female, in a hormonal sense. AND female canines are known as bitches, and gortoks are canines, so it all ties in together. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and I don't consider it sexist in the least. Just like I don't consider accusing a man of thinking with his penis to be sexist. Women don't HAVE them, therefore, the insult can't possibly apply to them. So when a male PC spends an inordinate amount of time obsessing about sex, then yes - he is "thinking with his penis (or insert any genre-appropriate substitute for the word)." Again - biology. Even Zalanthan biology has male and female limitations and differences. Equal does not mean the same. If it did, there would be no sexes, it wouldn't be an option in chargen and all our characters would be its instead of hims and hers.
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MeTekillot

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2017, 11:19:59 PM »
Why can't all Zalanthans just be beautiful hermaphrodites so we can stop having this argument?
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tapas

  • Posts: 142
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2017, 01:10:30 AM »
Yes, bitch refers to a female, being female, in a hormonal sense. AND female canines are known as bitches, and gortoks are canines, so it all ties in together. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and I don't consider it sexist in the least.

The meaning and use of the word isn't the same thing. Just becuase bitch means female dog doesn't mean that it's not frequently used as a slur used to attack women for being women.

I have encountered uses of the word ig in ways that are sexist. But thankfully it's not overly common.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 01:14:17 AM by tapas »

BlittzOff

  • Posts: 14
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2017, 06:17:10 AM »
You keep saying it as if it's wrong to insult people for something.

The word stump is used to insult dwarves, and can apply to every dwarf as insulting.
It doesn't make it bad. Maybe it's not imaginative, but it's there.

Maybe it's upsetting to draw some real-life conflicts and prejudice into Arma, but humans are in real life, humans are in Arma, albeit more hardy, and you can't wipe clean prejudice between different people. Sure, arma is different in some ways, with the inter-human racism faded away/nonexistant now that everyone is about the same skin color and there are no bases for hardcore skinhead nazi purists to exist, and with the other races to be racist about.

But gender tension existed since the lowest and earliest tribes in history, with matriarchies and patriarchies, and whatever else.
Prostitution/whoring is the oldest profession in existence, why shouldn't it be used as an insult?

If you truly want this to be gone, then you're gonna want to convert all humans to the sexually ambiguous dwarves.
Just look at this classy lady.

Refugee

  • Posts: 1573
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2017, 08:30:53 AM »
But you use dick and bitch pretty much the same, one's just female and the other's male.  Like using he and she. 

He's being a dick, she's being a bitch.

It's only a big deal if you make it a big deal.  And by pressing this in-game, making your PC's actions somehow relate to RL, to -your- actions, we've broken something.  Maybe irrevocably.  I don't know for sure, but I'm concerned.

Last time I was logged in, my PC was in the perfect position to really treat an elf poorly.  Like he always does.  But now...it doesn't feel right.  You've made elves somehow related to real people.  And I don't want to treat real people badly, or even pretend to treat real people badly.  My brain swirled around looking for a solution to the paradox, and coming up with nothing quickly enough before the moment had passed, I basically ignored the elf.

I'm not sure if I can work through this new PC Armageddon.  I'm just not sure.


sleepyhead

  • Posts: 201
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2017, 09:29:49 AM »
But you use dick and bitch pretty much the same, one's just female and the other's male.  Like using he and she. 

He's being a dick, she's being a bitch.

It's only a big deal if you make it a big deal.  And by pressing this in-game, making your PC's actions somehow relate to RL, to -your- actions, we've broken something.  Maybe irrevocably.  I don't know for sure, but I'm concerned.

Last time I was logged in, my PC was in the perfect position to really treat an elf poorly.  Like he always does.  But now...it doesn't feel right.  You've made elves somehow related to real people.  And I don't want to treat real people badly, or even pretend to treat real people badly.  My brain swirled around looking for a solution to the paradox, and coming up with nothing quickly enough before the moment had passed, I basically ignored the elf.

I'm not sure if I can work through this new PC Armageddon.  I'm just not sure.

A couple of things:

1. While I probably disagree with the censorship and meddling as much as you do, none of it is supposed to be for the benefit of filthy, disgusting elves like the one you encountered IG. Elves are still thieving, lying snakes and one of them probably has a hand in your pocket right now. These new rules are supposedly for the benefit of the players behind the screen, whether those players are playing elves or not. Just like rape is banned not because that good-looking little indie merchant is now ICly considered too good and too precious to be violated, but because allowing rape causes all sorts of OOC issues that staff would rather not navigate. And that doesn't change whether or not you agree with these rules.

2. Right now, the only place where those new rules have been posted is at the end of a locked thread, posted in the middle of what seems to be an exiting staff member's angry explosion at the playerbase. It's quite possible that most people who play the game have not even seen that thread and are oblivious to any supposed new rules. As I've said before, I trust the staff to repost these rules where everyone can see them--if they didn't, it would be unfair to new players, non-GDBers, and people who for whatever reason just missed the thread. Until that happens, I'm not convinced they're actually a thing, because staff do not tend to bury gamewide rule changes at the ends of locked threads. Nergal gave us all one month to get used to the changes, anyway, so I'm sure clarification will come before our grace period is over. Until then, I'm not too worried about it.



John

  • Posts: 4035
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2017, 09:43:36 AM »
You've made elves somehow related to real people
Elves are nothing like <insert ethnicity here>. Elves have a biological disposition towards theft and running. Unless you believe that everyone whose <insert ethnicity here> are thieves in real life, you should not be associating them with any RL group.
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Riev

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2017, 09:51:27 AM »
You've made elves somehow related to real people
Elves are nothing like <insert ethnicity here>. Elves have a biological disposition towards theft and running. Unless you believe that everyone whose <insert ethnicity here> are thieves in real life, you should not be associating them with any RL group.

I feel like what Refugee is saying, is that by giving them the "no more <this word>" treatment, its like humanizing them in some way. They're no longer Wops, or Japos, or Krauts. They're people, with families, feelings, similar to you and me. Its harder (not hard, harder) to demean people when you find yourself sympathizing with their plights.

I'm pretty neutral about the removal of one word we use for elves, as we can still use longneck, sharpear, skinny, gutter-trash, etc etc.

But so far as gender/sex, its a very difficult line because while being able to birth children in no way impedes or assists a female in rising up in their job or career in Zalanthas, its entirely possible that someone decides that pregnant females must be cared for, attended to, protected (while in other cultures, a pregnant woman who takes down a raptor a day, guarantees a strong child). If someone calls you a bitch, an angry female gortok that protects its young with ferocity... shit, take it. This isn't the "bitch" of the Modern Western World where you are "strong and independent" or "demanding".

I think both in how we use words in game, as well as how we take them in real life, we need a step back. Being called a dick, to me, means "you have one use in life, and everything else you do is just fluff". If someone calls me a dick, or a dickhead in game, I usually assume they mean "You're nothing but a stick of flesh". Its demeaning, and they mean it as a pejorative, so I take it that way. I don't assume "they're a man-hating second-wave feminazi that thinks penises are evil".
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4146
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2017, 11:10:40 AM »
I play Armageddon to chop up motherfuckers with bone swords. Picking male or female doesn't affect this, nothing else is relevant. My position is unassailable; this thread is now over.
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Harmless

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2017, 11:36:04 AM »
People who understand the setting well could use certain words with no issue. But that understanding of what it means to be female or male in Zalanthas isn't universal. Luckily some of the posts above hit on key points of Zalanthan life as a female and how it is free from the shitty prejudices of the real world.  I think if all players had the understanding shown by some in this discussion then we wouldn't have to debate censorship or political correctness, because the roleplay in game wouldn't veer on anachronistic or RL-poisoned views of females, who are just as capable of everything in Zalanthas and do not deserve to be the target of insults or false assumptions based on their gender alone.
If I had the time I would try to condense the points made above into a crash course for newbies. I think it would help.
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Synthesis

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2017, 03:29:35 PM »
Maybe it's just because of my job, but my #1 definition of "bitch" isn't "cranky..." it's "weak."

As in "stop being a little bitch*," not "she's such a bitch!"





*not that I would ever actually say that
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 03:44:24 PM by Synthesis »
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stark

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2017, 04:32:53 PM »
It's a lot of talk about being called a name via your imaginary avatar by other imaginary avatars.  If someone is playing a character that can only think up something like calling someone a bitch, why are you interacting with them? You can logoff and go outside for that kind of interaction. Keep pissing people off until you find someone that can call you a dirty erdlu-fu**ing whore rag. Or something equally mollifying in a world of people with no written languages, words should be used vibrantly.
What kind of jerkoff shakes a tent in the dark? Go out there and see who or what that is.

James de Monet

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2017, 05:05:59 PM »
Honestly, I almost think chivalry (dysphemized: whiteknighting) is harder to deal with IG than pejoratives or sex-based prejudice.  Who turns away kindness?  Especially when your character wouldn't assume it was because of their sex?

I don't know that I have a good way to address it.  I suppose one could assume it was an act of courtship (but without the RL eye rolling, because sexes being equal works both ways).  'Oh, thanks!  Are you just nice, or is this an offer of something more?'  or 'Oh, thanks.  I hope you're just being nice, I'm not interested in anything more.'

I dunno.  Anyone have experience / good advice for this kind of scenario?
You know I think if James simply retitled his thread "Cheese" and apologized for his first post being off-topic, all problems would be solved.

Delirium

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2017, 05:25:36 PM »
Honestly, I almost think chivalry (dysphemized: whiteknighting) is harder to deal with IG than pejoratives or sex-based prejudice.  Who turns away kindness?  Especially when your character wouldn't assume it was because of their sex?

I don't know that I have a good way to address it.  I suppose one could assume it was an act of courtship (but without the RL eye rolling, because sexes being equal works both ways).  'Oh, thanks!  Are you just nice, or is this an offer of something more?'  or 'Oh, thanks.  I hope you're just being nice, I'm not interested in anything more.'

I dunno.  Anyone have experience / good advice for this kind of scenario?

As with any jarring, OOC or non-thematic behavior, it is really tough to handle IC. On one hand, you can't just go OOC for fear of starting a jarring OOC argument, and it's really hard to lead by example when/if they simply don't take the hint. Especially if you are playing a female. If you're playing a male and witnessing it, it's still awkward to even acknowledge IC.

As much as I hate feeling like a tattletale, I'm on the verge of deciding I should just send in a player complaint but ask them to simply explain (with examples) why their behavior has no place in Zalanthas, and hope it is framed as a well-meaning educational outreach rather than some sort of finger-shaking rant.

When I first started playing I didn't understand the concept of magick hate in Tuluk and a staff member took the time to write out an email to me explaining why my character's behavior was incongruous and how to fix it.

That really helped me, even if I was horridly embarrassed at the time.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 05:28:04 PM by Delirium »
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Kalden

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2017, 05:32:33 AM »
I would like to see documentation explaining that sexism is not the same on Zalanthas as it is on Earth, as both genders are roughly equal in physical strength and have equal opportunities. As a long-term veteran, this is the general culture that I was indoctrinated into back around 2006 but I have trouble finding actual helpfiles that explain this (tried: "help gender", "help sex", "help woman", "help female", and so on).

I don't like the words "bitch" or "dick" in-game, and luckily almost never encounter them. Don't think I've ever used them myself. It's just weird to import sensitive areas of the RL world into a game like this.

Cind

  • Posts: 1276
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2017, 06:00:43 AM »
Gender things apart from baby machinery don't affect my gameplay because there are no gender things in the game apart from baby machinery.

On my few guy characters, though, I tend not to giggle a great deal in one sitting.
Look, a petting tregil.  So silky...Feel him.

senseofeven

  • Posts: 332
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2017, 05:52:55 AM »
I've heard people call others as 'headless erdlu' which was tastefully zalanthanian.

Then there's 'gith/elf/breed fucker'.

Then I've spewed out tamer profanities such as, 'mek fart' , 'gith fart'.

If wanna go hardcore, then the best that I can think up is 'ball-less/tit-less ingrate'?

Well why put in real world profanities, we use them and hear them so much that they've lost all its flavor. Add salt, pls.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1175
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2017, 06:49:26 AM »
I call people of both gender cunt(insert facial feature here) as much as I call people cock(insert facial feature here).

Sometimes the combinations come out to be hilariously Zalanthan such as a cock-eared gith-fucker.

ExtraPlanar

  • Posts: 117
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2017, 08:29:45 AM »
something that I get confused a bit about is clothing and style. Would a male who has long hair and slight body wearing a dress be pass remarkable? Can males dress in what we would think of as a female style (and vice versa) without it being weird? Or would that then bring the complexity of acknowledging gender-queer characters with neutral pronouns in game (which I think could be pretty difficult, but kind of interesting?)

I can understand why some characters in Zalanthas would turn their nose up at this, as I feel like reproduction is important in such a harsh world, where mothers and fathers would probably want to have many children so as to ensure care in their old age/as much money coming into their community as possible. Therefore sex as a pragmatic activity would make sense, and clear gender-signalling would make sense. However this as well could inform some homophobia in game, which, while it would be "realistic" from this point of view, I really would not like to see due to personal reasons "/.

gender/sex in Zalanthas is a really delicate issue because if we want it to be "realistic" we usually refer to real-life mechanisms of sexual/cultural/gender apparatuses to inform what is "realistic", but a lot of the time these are not great for establishing a game in which a certain amount of diversity and equality is welcomed.

Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2017, 09:20:19 AM »
If my male PCs (because I'm awful at the few females I've played) want to be pretty, they'll be pretty. I don't run out in heels and gowns, but there are 'feminine' cut shirts out there, or tight deep-v vests. If they have wavy hair and are proud of it, sure as shit they'll wear ribbons or feathers to draw attention to it.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5922
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2017, 09:59:22 AM »
Quote
But that doesn't change the real world context that you are filtering into the game.

I'm in opposition to this.  I'm not bringing that context into the game; I'm using the bounds of language to make things understood via the tools of dialogue that we have at our disposal.  It's -you- who are importing the real life context into the game.

Statements like these, whether you intended it this way or not, make it seem like a real life SJW front is being actively pursued in the game because of the statement that men and women are being treated equally in the game, which has little to nothing to do with names they're called.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

TheGoose

  • Posts: 109
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2017, 10:08:20 AM »
Just do what I do. Doggedly view the words in a Zelanthian light.

bcw81

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2017, 10:31:09 AM »
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

Quote
A female voice says, in sirihish:
     "] yer a wizard, oashi"

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2017, 10:33:46 AM »
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?


ExtraPlanar

  • Posts: 117
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2017, 10:36:40 AM »
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?
Does it make sense for a Zalanthan to do that? Would a Zalanthan care that much about enforcing coherent gender norms?

nauta

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2017, 10:44:01 AM »
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

Even dwarves?
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Riev

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2017, 10:45:54 AM »
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress or women wearing pants in Zalanthas. It's a fantasy game and we should not be bringing gender norms into this fantasy. If someone wants to wear a dress, then they can wear a dress.

And if someone wants to beat them up or mock them for wearing a dress, is that also allowed?

Only if they look ridiculous in it. If they're a man, wearing a dress, in the Gaj? Its not that he's "dressed like a woman" its that he's "dressed all fancy in a shit bar". There's a lot of clothing in game that, to Westerners, might actually LOOK like a dress but its really a kalasiri. Which is LIKE a dress, but I can see men rocking them no problem.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Miradus

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2017, 10:47:07 AM »
In Nak, you can get thrown into the arena and killed for wearing silk.

Or called a whore for showing too much skin in the Gaj (which we clearly saw demonstrated by a staff animated NPC).

In Luir's or Red Storm, why would any character of mine care if someone is wearing a frilly dress?

But if you're a Naki, it's just stupid to pretend that clothing doesn't matter when so clearly it does in almost every social interaction. There's even helpfiles on what's acceptable clothing in Nak.

Enforcing all this SJW bullshit in this game breaks immersion and waters down the existing lore. It makes for a confusing gameworld and inconsistent because you're unsure which actions are going to suddenly bring some inconsistent and angry response from staff for something you felt was otherwise innocuous.

ETA: I GET that all of you are great and socially responsible human beings who would never use your gender privilege or whatever bywords are current. There's no need for virtue signaling by posting how you would NEVER do such a thing. However not all of our CHARACTERS are socially responsible human beings. Some of them can be pretty fucking vile. And guess what ... that vileness might also extend to areas which we, as modern culturally sensitive people, might find offensive.

Get out your bone sword and get to chopping.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 10:50:09 AM by Miradus »

Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2017, 10:53:47 AM »
The struggle is the difference between "I discriminate against women because they are <insert poor reasoning here>" and "the entire culture believes women are superior" etc.

Different cultures in game are patriarchal, matriarchal, I'm pretty sure one is led by a man in a goat mask (not really). So there are different stereotypes based on where you live.

Being called a "whore" shouldn't be a pejorative in the first place.

Only in "the city" would someone care about what you're wearing, and even then only if you're representing someone else. If you're a Borsail Wyvern, and you're in public wearing a flowery silk dress, high heels, and enough kohl to choke a mekillot, someone is probably going to wonder whats going on, call you Falish, or something.

I think I draw the line at "He's wearing mens clothes" or "those shoes are for women"
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

nauta

  • Posts: 2187
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2017, 10:55:56 AM »
On the point of fashion alone (not gender):

It might be worth pointing folks to Allanaki Fashions helpfile.  (One offtopic interesting point: Green is considered unlucky!)  There's no mention of gender-specific sartorial norms, but, yes, you would be viewed oddly if you showed a lot of skin, especially if you were a fancier person.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanaki%20Fashions

There was also a cool thread on Allanaki fashion.





as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2017, 10:58:39 AM »
Yeah, that's kind of my point too, Riev, stated with less vitriol.

You have literally set up a gameworld with lore and documentation where this, this, and this matters ... but not THIS, hell no, not THIS, because someone will be offended RL.

It's inconsistent and not demonstrative of decent roleplay.

ExtraPlanar

  • Posts: 117
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2017, 11:32:57 AM »
Just to add though, dresses aren't intrinsically "fancy" or frilly, to me it'd kind of make sense that many commoners would wear simple dresses, since they're pretty close to djellabahs, kalasiris etc. and can also be pretty conservative. It'd make no sense for me to see a commoner getting harassed in the gaj for wearing a drab dress with a style like this:


Of course, Zalanthan dresses would probably use more breathable material and not be so well put-together, but the long sleeve+low-leg of a dress like this shouldn't really raise eyebrows.

Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2017, 11:53:45 AM »
I think the fashion document linked earlier is VERY pertinent and doesn't see enough attention. Southies, despite being in desert heat, cover up almost head to toe. Northerners and tribals tend to be very skin-showing and seen as "barbarians" to the Southies because they aren't cultured enough to hide their shame.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 201
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2017, 12:25:18 PM »
- There ARE docs that suggest that certain kinds of clothes are more commonly worn by men than by women.

- There are trends among NPCs that suggest that certain styles are more often worn by one gender than the other.

- Back when Nyr was still Nyring, he said that a good way to look at it was that masculine or feminine aspects are a thing, but no one would be considered aberrant for "cross-dressing" because there is no sex thought of as weaker or stronger, worse or better.

- There are items IG that say masculine or feminine, and while some think this is only an OOC designation comparable to when a PC has "ice-blue" eyes, it still counts as weak evidence, especially in light of the preceding points.

All of this suggests to me that some clothes are more commonly worn by men than by women and vice versa. None of this makes it okay to treat someone poorly because they are wearing clothes typical of the other gender. That is disallowed. The most I think you should view it as is slightly unusual. Only the most sensitive people IRL freak out when a woman wears a tux. The main reason some people freak out when a man wears a dress is because of how "emasculating" it is perceived to be. That would not be an issue on Zalanthas, nor would the "defeminization" of a woman, because women are known to be potentially as brutal and capable as anyone, while men are just as likely to be sensitive and non-combat-prone as anyone.

That is my interpretation. The other (perhaps more common) interpretation is that there are absolutely zero styles or trends that apply more to women than to men or vice versa, and a man in a frilly dress is exactly as common as a woman in a frilly dress. To me this is bland and homogenous. I think we are allowed to accept that there are some weak traditional aesthetic norms as long as we do not go too far and mistreat people for breaking them.

Akariel

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2017, 12:30:29 PM »
In none of the following documentation that has followed Armageddon for at least a decade, likely longer, does it state anywhere that one sort of garment is for men and the other sort is for women.

Tuluk Fashions
Allanak Fashions
Tribal/Red Storm/Luir's/Etc. Fashions

About two years ago any clothing with an sdesc of 'feminine' or 'masculine' in the sdesc had the term removed because there is no clothing item in the game world that is meant for one sex or the other.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 201
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2017, 12:36:07 PM »
Not true, Akariel. I think you have stuff that got overlooked.

Bisht
A robe-like, sleeved garment typically worn by men. When worn closed, one side overlaps the other. It fits loosely, comes in one size and may have to be hemmed to fit.

Kilt
A one-piece wrapping that resembles short pants beneath a skirt. A favored piece amongst men for the freedom it offers. Worn by men of all castes in several regions.

These are just the ones that come straight to mind. I'm not sure if there are others.

nauta

  • Posts: 2187
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2017, 12:37:18 PM »
Nevermind, elf'd by sleepyhead on kilt and bisht. 

Curiously, cowl is a preference for gicks:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Cowl



as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 201
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2017, 12:38:58 PM »
Yes, the kilts are worn by men for junk reasons according to the docs, but I don't see why kilts would be favored by men over other skirts, or why women wouldn't choose to wear them just as often, so it still doesn't make that much sense in a world with absolutely no gender-specific clothing whatsoever. But I guess that's the world we're playing in, so I'm just going to have to adapt like I always do.

Akariel

  • Storyteller
  • Posts: 447
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2017, 12:42:16 PM »
There may be a few odd helpfiles like that, but they are contradicted in other places. For example:

Kilts and pteryges that leave the legs bare are also popular with men and women.

Bishts inparticular should probably be unisex (and the helpfile changed) since they're a part of a main clan's uniform.

Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2017, 12:42:27 PM »
Code: [Select]
A relatively plain shirt of sand-colored sandcloth, this garment bears a
feminine cut, curving gently inward at the sides, while flaring outward near
the end, where it would cover the hips.  It offers loose sleeves and laces
midway up the front.  The lower hem and sleeves are fitted with a decorative
jozhal-hide trim, which shimmers in a myriad of colors.  The laces for the
front of the shirt are also made from the same kind of hide. 

Feminine cut.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Akariel

  • Storyteller
  • Posts: 447
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2017, 12:51:59 PM »
Code: [Select]
A relatively plain shirt of sand-colored sandcloth, this garment bears a
feminine cut, curving gently inward at the sides, while flaring outward near
the end, where it would cover the hips.  It offers loose sleeves and laces
midway up the front.  The lower hem and sleeves are fitted with a decorative
jozhal-hide trim, which shimmers in a myriad of colors.  The laces for the
front of the shirt are also made from the same kind of hide. 

Feminine cut.

Yes. There are a -lot- of items in game, and not all of them follow the guidelines of 'show, don't tell'. Please typo items like this when you see them so we can correct errors like this.

sleepyhead

  • Posts: 201
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2017, 12:55:40 PM »
I feel like these kinds of policies are well-intentioned but don't actually accomplish what they're supposed to. Dman's (rest his soul) interpretation was that men and women are exactly, 100% physically identical except for the boobs and nethers. Therefore, women and men had the exact same voices, and were exactly as likely to have beards, and there was no distinguishable difference in facial features, hips, waists, or anything else. That necessarily means if a woman has small breasts that are currently not visible and their junk is not showing at the moment, they are ALWAYS indistinguishable from men, no matter what they otherwise look like.

I don't know if Dman's interpretation is really the decree of the staff, but if it is, it flies in the face of the stated intention for the anti-sexism and gender roles rules, which is that women should feel comfortable playing badass--and maybe "masculine" by Earth standards--women without being berated or questioned all along the line for it. And I 100% get that and appreciate it. However, if we take it too far, we aren't really getting to play women anymore. We are just playing unigendered humanoids with boobs and vaginas. This reduces what makes a woman a woman to cushioning and piping, and it doesn't make me feel like I'm getting an opportunity to play an inspiring woman. My character may as well be a man and could have exactly the same sdesc and mdesc (down to the waspish waist and ample hips) with pronouns switched and references to boobs removed.

And what if I were a cross-dressing man who wanted to play a cross-dressing man in Zalanthas? I literally couldn't. I might appreciate a policy that cross-dressing is accepted, except that isn't the case here. It apparently does not exist anywhere in the world in any form. I don't think that's empowering, either.

So if the intention is to be able to play what you want without feeling stifled by the same prejudices you experience IRL, these policies are not accomplishing that. Taking away discrimination based on certain things is OK, but taking away the existence of something limits creativity and self-expression. It's almost offensive, actually, suggesting that if women and men had different styles or physical characteristics associated with them, discrimination would HAVE to arise. It kind of reeks of justifying RL sexism, where there actually are traits and styles associated with the genders, as if you are saying that somehow sexism is valid as long as men and women look different or wear different things, so you have to keep those differences out of the game to justify no sexism.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 12:57:28 PM by sleepyhead »

LucildaHunta

  • Posts: 229
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2017, 02:17:58 PM »
I really don't see what's so wrong with having certain items have male or female cuts to them. A breastplate definitely comes to mind.

This is kind of funny, because I had a similar conversation about male and female clothes irl. The example I used was a male and female style football jersey. They're cut differently and it's a case where it's ok to wear either one if you're a woman. Some women are going to feel more comfy wearing a men's jersey...for reasons. Some women are going to wear a woman's jersey no matter what.

That's how I see zalanthan clothes. You have the choice, but certain things you just wouldn't. A female really doesn't need a cup like nether region protector. Not the same kind of armor down there.
Just like the white winged dove,
Sings a song
Sounds like she's singing
Oooo,ooo, ooo

Akariel

  • Storyteller
  • Posts: 447
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2017, 02:25:37 PM »
I'm not saying that there aren't different cuts of fabric or armor, I just feel like it should show the reader why its a different cut rather than tell the reader.

LucildaHunta

  • Posts: 229
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2017, 03:19:58 PM »
I'm not saying that there aren't different cuts of fabric or armor, I just feel like it should show the reader why its a different cut rather than tell the reader.

Oooh, yeah got ya.
Just like the white winged dove,
Sings a song
Sounds like she's singing
Oooo,ooo, ooo

Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2017, 03:41:55 PM »
So like, instead of having a man-sized hunger, you describe why your hunger deserves the Hungry-Man dinner plan.

Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.

I've always liked how the Nietzcheans do it in Andromeda. You are not Tyr, some dudes son. You are Tyr Anasazi, out of Victoria by Barbarossa. I like to believe most tribes would do it similarly, where your heritage actually means something. Unless you're Arabet, in which case your dad was just some buff looking Sergeant they thought would make a tuff kid.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Molten Heart

  • Posts: 1843
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2017, 03:51:33 PM »
Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.

I could see a culture protecting it's women more because they are seen as more valuable than men. It takes one women to mother one child, and in that same time it takes only one man to father several children. A culture that values children would generally value women over men. I could see a culture utilizing women to raise children because they are also busy being pregnant for part of that time, being in a protected environment where there would also be children.

Riev

  • Posts: 4728
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2017, 04:05:05 PM »
Hitting the big main subject though, I think it still depends on where you are the documentation of the area. One clan that reveres females might do so because they bear children and consider them weak, whereas another sees them pushing out a child and believes they are the strongest. The same tribes may see men as lesser because they do not give birth, or the strongest give out the strongest children.

I could see a culture protecting it's women more because they are seen as more valuable than men. It takes one women to mother one child, and in that same time it takes only one man to father several children. A culture that values children would generally value women over men. I could see a culture utilizing women to raise children because they are also busy being pregnant for part of that time, being in a protected environment where there would also be children.

And with that environment, I can see a rival clan who believes in different values to consider THEIR OWN women to be better. But I just can't come up with a reason to say something like "That's a woman's job" or "What are you, a weak woman/bitch?" or something like that. If you do believe that, you are certainly playing the more rare side of things, like a psychosis developed from having a mother routinely 'allow' herself to be beaten, so you think all women are weak. I don't imagine in Zalanthan society, a man who hates women with that much scorn would last very long.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

whitt

  • Posts: 1654
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2017, 04:14:31 PM »
I think there is a big gap in the difference between genders being equal for all physical capabilities and there being no difference in how those gender are treated. 

This is sexism (belief certain genders should fall into certain societal norms) vs chauvinism (believe one gender is superior to the other).

IMHO, chauvanism should not exist is Zalanthis, but there are certain roles for which one gender is simply going to be selected over the other by pure biology.

For example.  In this post-apocalyptic world, men (far as I know) still do not bear children.  If the biological override to sustain the populace is gone, that's one thing.  If it is not, then by that very fact men and women are not identical.  You don't need a bunch of men to sustain the population.  Men aren't going to be carrying children to term.  Men aren't going to die as a result of the birthing process.  Men can't feed the child after it is born.  In short, men are far more disposable than women.  You just don't need them past a very particular moment in time.

So... who do you send out on the dangerous tasks?  The disposable ones.  Who do you keep around (to a point)?  The ones that can replace all those disposable minions.

Men would be kept around if they were healthy and strong, eg able to better produce offspring that are likewise "useful".
Women would be kept around if they were healthy and strong and able to bear children that were healthy and strong.

Everyone else (and here's your true equality) would be disposable. 

You're a weak, sickly female?  You're a drag on your society.  Good bye.
You're a weak, sickly male?  You're a drag on your society.  Good bye.
You're a strong, healthy male, do your duty and then get out there to do those dangerous tasks that are likely to get someone dead.  Thanks for helping.
You're a strong, healthy female?  Don't want to bear children?  Ok, you're in the same boat as the strong healthy men.  Eg, you're disposable.  Get into the grinder.
You're a strong, healthy male that doesn't want to behave like a strong, healthy male?  Well you're more of a drag than the weak, sickly guy.  Who's gonna feed you?  Get out.
You're a strong, healthy female?  You're able to bear strong healthy children?  You're top of the food chain... Until there's too many children.  Then you're disposable.  Get into the grinder.

So does it make sense for a woman to present as "masculine" sure does.  Says, I'm not here to bear children.  I'm here to break shit and get stuff done.
Does it make sense for a man to present as "feminine"?  Sure, but probably less so.  As your place in society is... what?

Edit: Removed separate topic.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 04:18:48 PM by whitt »
Quote from: BadSkeelz
Ah well you should just kill those PCs. They're not worth the time of plotting creatively against.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5922
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2017, 04:30:42 PM »
I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.

It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses.  That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game.  It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'.  It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm.  I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.

Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten.  People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'.  Yes.  They can.  It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

LucildaHunta

  • Posts: 229
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2017, 06:00:11 PM »
I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.

It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses.  That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game.  It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'.  It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm.  I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.

Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten.  People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'.  Yes.  They can.  It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.

I agree with this. I always took the documentation simply as, a character's gender is not a bar to doing things. If a female character wants to lead a hunt or be a military leader, etc she can. If a man wants to be a nanny and take care of the kids, he can. It's just not a proper inworld response to belittle a male/female who wants to be X because of their gender because that doesn't matter. If someone does decide to have a PC that has that kind of bias, don't expect it to be normal or even many people to agree with it.

Just like the white winged dove,
Sings a song
Sounds like she's singing
Oooo,ooo, ooo

Delirium

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Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2017, 06:29:12 PM »
I think you guys are overanalyzing just for the sake of god-knows-whatever-reason.

It isn't 'normal' for men to be wearing dresses.  That's not reinforced by any prevalence in documentation, presentation through npc's, or any fashion drive that has gone through the entirety of the game.  It's entirely normal for it to be treated as 'out of the norm'.  It is not, however, something that would lead to social -persecution-, and by that I do not mean someone making fun of you; if they want to make fun of you for it, it is, as established, somewhat out of the norm.  I mean that society, as a whole, is not going to prevent you from doing anything because you wear a dress, i.e. A hirer is not likely to say 'I don't know, you're talented, but your personal preferences give me hesitation', etc.

Zalanthas, for its lack of sexism, is not a teddy bear cult where normalism is forgotten.  People in Zalanthas are allowed to be assholes for no reason whatsoever, and such is common, but you guys keep fixating on these things and saying 'But you can't be an asshole for -that-'.  Yes.  They can.  It just is not part of the social structure for that to be frowned upon.

I agree with this. I always took the documentation simply as, a character's gender is not a bar to doing things. If a female character wants to lead a hunt or be a military leader, etc she can. If a man wants to be a nanny and take care of the kids, he can. It's just not a proper inworld response to belittle a male/female who wants to be X because of their gender because that doesn't matter.

Yeah. Women look like women and men look like men, and you all think way too hard about this shit.

Sorry not sorry. You do.
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while my blood's still flowing and my heart still beats

Refugee

  • Posts: 1573
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2017, 08:53:22 PM »
There's a reason women didn't wear pants until recently.  When you had to squat to take a piss, dresses made sense.  Also gave easy access for sex without having to remove all that garb.  True, notions of modesty developed around these fundamental needs.

Some cultures developed dress-like garb for men, and they tend to be Zalanthan-like, hot arid places.  Do they have access panels or anything?  To stick a hand in or to stick a penis out?  Do these guys lift up their hems in front?  Seems like that would be annoying.

It's my opinion that most cultures develop female garb without much care for comfort and male garb with an eye to comfort.  That's something that probably wouldn't have happened in Zalanthas.

Also, every time I've ever seen a man portrayed in Zalanthas as wearing women's clothing, they were acting like it was funny.  Then you see them posting like they were doing some grand equality thing.  But if you're acting like it's funny, you're really not.




Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2017, 08:57:52 PM »

In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.



nauta

  • Posts: 2187
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2017, 09:07:48 PM »
Also, every time I've ever seen a man portrayed in Zalanthas as wearing women's clothing, they were acting like it was funny.  Then you see them posting like they were doing some grand equality thing.  But if you're acting like it's funny, you're really not.

Probably a different man.

As long as people realize that Zalanthas isn't Lake Wobegan, I'm pretty happy.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Refugee

  • Posts: 1573
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2017, 10:30:34 PM »

In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.

Men squat to piss?  Seriously?

TheGoose

  • Posts: 109
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2017, 08:09:59 AM »
Less splashback.

ExtraPlanar

  • Posts: 117
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2017, 08:16:46 AM »
Do Zalanthans pee more because they drink more water cause it's hot, or do they pee less because water is scarce and it's hot.

These are the REAL questions we should be asking

Refugee

  • Posts: 1573
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2017, 08:45:46 AM »
I've always thought the ability to pee so conveniently was one of the things men got the good end of the stick on.

Do Zalanthans pee more because they drink more water cause it's hot, or do they pee less because water is scarce and it's hot.

These are the REAL questions we should be asking

"If you don't gotta pee you're not drinking enough."
(boot camp flashback)

What a good question.  I bet they pee less.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 08:49:03 AM by Refugee »

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2017, 09:01:13 AM »

In a thobe or a kilt, you squat. When your bathroom is a hole in the ground, it makes good sense and it's more convenient. I find it so, anyway.

Men squat to piss?  Seriously?

Yep.

I think the standing to piss is a western thing. In most of the parts of the Middle East where I was, they would squat over a hole in the ground. Even in bathrooms.

I did not, but mostly because of mechanical reasons. Public restrooms are filthy and I was worried about the hem of my thobe touching the filth. In every other aspect I tried to blend.

Refugee

  • Posts: 1573
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2017, 10:15:25 AM »
Never too old to learn something new.  I  had no idea.

Miradus

  • Posts: 1758
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2017, 10:37:42 AM »

There are fatwas issued on how exactly a man should piss. Religious scholars weigh in on whether or not the Prophet would squat to piss or not, and how he would feel about the use of toilet paper.

In one area I was at, we would go eat at this restaurant every day. (We lived on the economy, which in military terms meant we weren't stationed at a base but rather went to an office, wore civilian clothes to fit in, and ate wherever we wanted.)

In the restaurant's bathroom there was a hole in the ground (a pipe) and a bucket of water. For my first week or so there, I was confused about what was what. Nobody explains these things to the fresh off the plane kid. So I pissed in the bucket.

Finally someone tells me the bucket is for washing your hand off after you take a shit. There's no toilet paper, these being Muslims who follow the traditional "wipe with your left hand" ideal.

Equally disgusting, because you can visually see that at least some of the handwashers have been "double dipping" and have left floating evidence.

The final kicker was when I walked in one day to find the restaurant busboy (this kid maybe 9 years old) WASHING THE DISHES in the handwashing shit bucket.

To this day I don't know if it was maliciousness towards westerners (the restaurant was frequented by westerners) or simply the level of "don't give a fuck" that 90% of the Middle East exhibits in their day to day activities. You got hepatitis? That's Allah's will. Food poisoning? Allah's will again.

It's different in big urban areas like Riyadh, where Arabs are actively trying to be more western (mostly ditching the more beautiful traits of their own culture for the ugliest aspects of western culture). There you have more westernized bathrooms with urinals and sinks. Except everyone wants to talk to you while they piss standing up, to show you how modern they are. "Hey, Abi! I'm pissing while standing up! Just like you Americans! Look, you can see my dick!"

Apparently the prohibition on pissing standing up, some religious scholars believe, comes from the immodesty of flopping your pecker out for casual observation.

In Saudi it's worse because they have the Mutawa. The Mutawa are these long beared old men who walk up and down the streets with canes to make sure everyone is obedient to Allah. And they have no compunctions at all about whacking you with a cane if they think you aren't. Restaurants will close during prayer time. When the Adhan sounds you just leave your unfinished food on the table, run down to the mosque, say your prayers, and hustle back to finish your (now cold) falafel or kebob. Except not being a Muslim, I couldn't go to a mosque so I had to just find someplace to hide from the Mutawa or risk being whacked with a cane and causing a big fuss. So I'd leave the restaurant and go hide in this alley behind the place. And in the alley there'd always be these male teenagers who were also hiding out from the Mutawa and smoking cigarettes. They often wouldn't know much English at all but would just throw out random words at you. One kid insisted "Shania Twain" was a proper greeting and said that to me every day for four months.

Ah. Travel. It's so broadening.

ExtraPlanar

  • Posts: 117
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2017, 11:02:46 AM »
oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.

Akariel

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  • Posts: 447
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2017, 11:17:11 AM »
oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.

Granted.

ExtraPlanar

  • Posts: 117
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2017, 11:27:50 AM »
oh my god can we please have "Shania Twain" as an in-game greeting.

Granted.
I'm glad this has finally all been resolved!

Close the thread, mods!

tapas

  • Posts: 142
Re: How should gender/sex affect interaction and dialogue in Zalanthas?
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2017, 07:06:09 AM »


This thread.