Author Topic: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?  (Read 3622 times)

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1041
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #100 on: July 16, 2017, 03:42:14 AM »
Eh, Hippie-Dar for the win on this one.

I agree that everyone needs to take a good sized step back from themselves, but thats my arguement for everything is to just relax and take it at face value. Oh you dont like it? Spend time being excellent and become staff so you can dick other people around if thats what you want. Or be that super nice staff guy that does all the right things because you are capable of being a solid internet person.

TheGoose

  • Posts: 91
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2017, 01:15:59 PM »
Dar is right, tho. The dramatics y'all get into look crazy af from the perspective of someone who's been here a few months.

Veselka

  • Posts: 59
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2017, 02:09:03 PM »
This is a game, right?

The way some people talk about it is as if we're all in the Stanford Prison Experiment.

Dar

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2017, 03:54:39 PM »
Now that I'm sober. I change my mind. Let's capture all staff and use their body fat for soap!

Riev

  • Posts: 4557
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2017, 05:30:03 PM »
This is a game, right?

The way some people talk about it is as if we're all in the Stanford Prison Experiment.

When you step back and realize the game has around 200 active players at any given time (active being... logging in during a week in this case), and then check to see the conversations on the GDB, you begin to recognize that less than 10% of the playerbase tend to be the most vocal about situations.

A lot of times, its players that have been at the brunt end of an angry or obtuse staff, or victim of a decision they believed was going to go their way.

I know its taking me some time and effort to come to terms that staff believe their role is to give us roadblocks, or difficulties to pass, so that our achievements mean more. Well intentioned, but when you've spent 2 RL months roleplaying an idea, and a staff member says no, or that its "not likely to happen", or even animates a roadblock that you had no chance of forseeing and little chance of stopping, it can bring out the worst in the player. Of late (the past few years) we've seen a LOT of additions to the game, and a bunch of sweeping removals decided on by people we aren't allowed to know or be friends with.

Its not the Stanford Prison Experiment, but you could certainly draw parallels to it with people SEEMINGLY AT RANDOM (not really) chosen to be staff (guards), who then must exercise their new found power over the players (prisoners) while they are put into this world they are attached to (jail).
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7410
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2017, 06:14:31 PM »
Riev, let's just assume your 10% statistic is true. I don't know if it is or not, but let's just pretend, since you have taken that assumptive leap.

This means that 90% of the playerbase either:
1. Is happy that the game is however it is, and not only has no problem with it, but is glad of it.
2. Has no problem, but is neither happy nor unhappy with the staff.
3. Doesn't care enough to post one way or another, they're just content to play the game, and not the GDB.

I'm not seeing a problem here. If 90% of the playerbase is any of the above 3 things, that reinforces the fact that the game is successful enough to attract 200+ active players, and has done so for the past 20+ years.

Also consider that among that 10% of vocal players, some percentage of that are posting satisfaction, not dissatisfaction. So that 90% of "I'm glad to play OR happy OR both" is actually higher than 90%.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 06:16:08 PM by Lizzie »
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6250
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Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2017, 06:20:15 PM »
3. Doesn't care enough to post one way or another, they're just content to play the game, and not the GDB.

I still care, but I don't post on the IC sections of the forum anymore because I don't expect to turn back into an active player anytime soon. I suspect the same applies to many, many others. Sure, everyone who's still around is mostly content. Makes sense. But they're not 90% of the entire playerbase.

Just my 2 'sid. Back to writing.

bcw81

  • Helper
  • Posts: 3056
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2017, 09:27:15 AM »
3. Doesn't care enough to post one way or another, they're just content to play the game, and not the GDB.

I still care, but I don't post on the IC sections of the forum anymore because I don't expect to turn back into an active player anytime soon. I suspect the same applies to many, many others. Sure, everyone who's still around is mostly content. Makes sense. But they're not 90% of the entire playerbase.

Just my 2 'sid. Back to writing.

If you're not playing, you're not a part of the 200-300 players who log into the game a week and therefore not a part of the 90% Riev and Lizzie were talking about.

http://www.armageddon.org/updates/index.php?week=28&year=2017

The numbers are updated weekly, so if you haven't logged in in the last week you are not a unique login for that week. Unique logins mean that that every login is a different player. So yes, it is 90% of the entire playerbase - actually, more if you count the number of posters like yourself who don't actually play the game but post your opinions about it.

Quote
A female voice says, in sirihish:
     "] yer a wizard, oashi"

Riev

  • Posts: 4557
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2017, 10:33:19 AM »
300 is a bit... overinflating, I should say. I've never seen it go above 270 in the "Golden" years.

I may also be inaccurate about it being ~20 people who are the most vocal.
Many of those unique logins may not be actively playing (does anyone know if its logins, or characters entering the world?)
Staff have multiple accounts/multiple characters, if those are tracked as different accounts, that could be inflated.


The numbers aren't 100%, but as Lizzie states, if the numbers are generally accurate, it means that a majority of players don't post for one reason or another. However, the issue of whether staff overuse their DM fiat being the main topic, whether there are 10 players or 100, it doesn't matter. The relating to the Stanford Prison Experiment, I think, still stands. People in power that weren't democratically chosen, whose primary position is to enforce rules and keep order, over people who "just want to live their life". Its not a perfect parallel, but I think its a perspective to look at.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

nauta

  • Posts: 2148
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2017, 10:41:09 AM »
That's why I've mapped ascii character code 7 to an electric shocker on my computer chair.

Re: the data] This is something that affects teacher-student evaluations as well, e.g., ratemyprofessor.  You will tend to get a very small subsection of the class, and those are the ones that feel very strongly about something, either positive or negative.  (Then, on discussion boards, you get people who feel neutral, but feel that someone's argument is not sound in some way, either because it is not valid or one of its premises is false.  And trolls.)

Overall, however, the gdb is a forum that, despite the claims of toxicity that pop up now and then, is a palpably positive resource in maintaining a community.
as IF you didn't just have them unconscious, naked, and helpless in the street 4 minutes ago

Riev

  • Posts: 4557
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2017, 11:13:49 AM »
That's why I've mapped ascii character code 7 to an electric shocker on my computer chair.

That was the Milgram experiments. Get out.


Also, on the forums, I agree. For the MOST part we're helpful and positive. There aren't nearly as many discussions as there used to be, but when someone has a question its answered within HOURS, which is pretty good for a "dying MUD".

I still, on topic, worry about Staff and their iron fists (however necessary). It may just be projecting, but I wonder about the staff that have been around a while (Adhira, Nessalin ..... maybe Rath?) who have seen the toxicity of some players and let it color their attitudes, or are in positions where they don't really play or interact with the world, but just act as Final Decision Makers in a universe they only barely share.

Its not a condemnation, but I know it used to be that Muk Utep would be animated at times, but ONLY by Adhira (or Sanvean maybe, when she was around) just for fun, but even THAT isn't an option anymore. I hope that the staff that stick around, do so both because they're good, AND because they like to play this game WITH us.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7410
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #111 on: July 17, 2017, 11:14:50 AM »
3. Doesn't care enough to post one way or another, they're just content to play the game, and not the GDB.

I still care, but I don't post on the IC sections of the forum anymore because I don't expect to turn back into an active player anytime soon. I suspect the same applies to many, many others. Sure, everyone who's still around is mostly content. Makes sense. But they're not 90% of the entire playerbase.

Just my 2 'sid. Back to writing.

You are not among the 200+ active players, so you don't count in that 90% of "active players who don't post on the GDB." You also don't count in the 10% of "active players who do post on the GDB."

And yes - get back to writing dammit, I'm waiting for the third book in your series!
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Adhira

  • Producer
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Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2017, 12:27:37 PM »
That's why I've mapped ascii character code 7 to an electric shocker on my computer chair.

I still, on topic, worry about Staff and their iron fists (however necessary). It may just be projecting, but I wonder about the staff that have been around a while (Adhira, Nessalin ..... maybe Rath?) who have seen the toxicity of some players and let it color their attitudes, or are in positions where they don't really play or interact with the world, but just act as Final Decision Makers in a universe they only barely share.

Its not a condemnation, but I know it used to be that Muk Utep would be animated at times, but ONLY by Adhira (or Sanvean maybe, when she was around) just for fun, but even THAT isn't an option anymore. I hope that the staff that stick around, do so both because they're good, AND because they like to play this game WITH us.

This is a real concern in any medium. That exposure over multiple years will cause a persons outlook to become coloured by their experiences of the past. I do not believe it is possible for that not to occur. I do believe it is possible for a person to be self-aware and realize their limitations, their areas of aggravation. I think it's also possible for people to put in place mechanisms to assist with this. For instance I recently took a break of more than 6 months from the game. Additionally being open and receptive to other opinions on staff, valuing their input and perspectives, and yes, doing the same for player perspectives is another way to try and keep a more open mind.

So yes, I do agree, this is a concern. However, I do not believe it is a fatal flaw.  There are advantages to experience and knowledge, to having 'seen it before'. There are advantages for having worked through something and come up with solutions that will help others when experiencing the same thing.  Essentially I believe that 'Age' whether in years or in a role is not hinderance. What is a hinderance is attitude, an unwillingness to learn and an unwillingness to listen to others and try new things.

As to staff playing the mud I will say this:  Staff are limited to one PC at a time, just like players. Also, I have played a PC within the last 2 months, and I've had a great time in the role and interacting with everyone.  While I don't play every day as players might, I do make sure that I play a PC on a semi-regular basis so that I can experience a real role. My hardest challenge when playing is to stop myself joining the byn every time. 

As to barely sharing the universe - well, I guess that is your perspective but I will say that I feel very invested in Armageddon, in the world of Zalanthas, and in this game.
"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

Riev

  • Posts: 4557
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2017, 12:39:32 PM »
That's really good to hear, Adhira. Obviously, as players, we never know if staff ARE or AREN'T playing, because you are given the choice. Maybe its just easier to believe the decisions you make, that I disagree with, are because you are removed from the game and not because you have a better overarching plan I'm not allowed to know about.

I know it always sounds like complaining, and it always will, but its nice to know that even one of the heads of the game still plays.

Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7410
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #114 on: July 17, 2017, 01:52:37 PM »
What is a hinderance is attitude, an unwillingness to learn and an unwillingness to listen to others and try new things.


I appreciate and agree with Adhira's post, with this one snippet above that I feel I'd like to address.

I want to emphasize that there is a difference between "unwillingness to listen to others and try new things," and "lack of interest in the subject and the new things that could be tried."

In particular - the magick subguilds; I have no interest in trying them. It's not that I'm unwilling, it's that I'm not interested. Why would I try something that doesn't interest me? I'm not interested in playing a half-giant or a mul, either. And so - I don't.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Adhira

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Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #115 on: July 17, 2017, 04:02:24 PM »
That's totally fine LIzzie :)  I was coming at it from the perspective of myself.  In terms of being 'management' for the game. If I am totally intractable and never listen to others, never consider other viewpoints or let people try things that I might personally not wish to try - then I'm being a hinderance.  I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm also not saying that sometimes, in certain areas I have firm beliefs and sticking points.  I'm expressing that I endeavor to at least be self-aware and realize when I am doing this, as well as purposefully make sure that I give other staff their own room to try out those things they are passionate about and have belief in.
"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7410
Re: Do staff overuse their DM fiat?
« Reply #116 on: July 17, 2017, 05:38:29 PM »
Oh that's great then! I was interpreting it wrong (personalizing it, heh). Thanks for the clarification!   ;D
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.