The Importance of Teaching

[gotdamnmiracle]

As a player I find that the worst part of the game, and the least immersive, to be the grind. We all know it, we've all done it to some degree. If you want your PC to be of any kind of note then you will have to invest some amount in their skills and not only that, but you'll have to do it for a long time. The best way to forego that hassle is to have people teach your PC how to do something, just like in real life.

That being said, I feel like there's a bit of a stigma to using the command /Teach skill/ in game and I'd like to examine why. From a social standpoint it doesn't make much sense. There are a number of reasons in it's favor right off the bat.

Pros,

- RP. It's more immersive to have a veteran explain to me why I need to keep my shield up rather than just saying "Keep your shield up," in a small bit of combat that's essentially all up to chance.

- Bettering the troops. It makes sense from a clan standpoint considering that when that eventual fight against gith, kryl, the witch, etc. does occur I'd rather have Runner Amos at my side with Apprentice in his piercing skill than Novice.

- It reduces Clan PC spillage. This is somewhat related to above, but anyone who has played a leader knows that there will be tons of players who will leave the walls and die to a spider or simply store out. Teaching reduces that number in my opinion. Further, I imagine it reduces the number of boredom related storages too because it demands more character interaction than a training bout. My experience with this is solely my own, so it is admittedly anecdotal.

- It's more realistic. This doesn't have any bearing for me personally because I am willing to table realism if what I'm playing is fun. I can expound upon this more, but I think we can agree that in general you will discuss something before putting it to practice and then go over or build upon the lesson learned.

Lastly I have number of cons related to it's use, but they seem relatively weak in comparison.

Cons,

- Twinking. This seems like the most obvious problem, but in this case also seems relatively unlikely. For it to occur it would require two or more people to be onboard with the idea. I feel like from an RP standpoint if something seems excessive it probably is and staff will probably let you know if you're doing something you shouldn't. I imagine a warning would be enough in most cases to clear this up.

- School of Hard Knocks? I'm not sure what to call this one, but it's the same mindset behind hazing. It's essentially "I had it done to me so they should too." Or in this case " I had to grind, why shouldn't they?"

- Darwinism. This IS the game of murder, corruption, and betrayal. If you spend all you train someone to become more deadly that does raise the possibility that they could become a threat to you. I think this is easily defeated by the fact though that you have to be superior in a skill to teach it. There will never be a time where a pupil, from teaching alone, will ever be able to defeat the master. That said, the RP and story of such an interaction seems like it would justify the risk alone.


These are my thoughts. I'd like to hear what you guys think. Is it just that I'm encountering people who don't know that you can teach someone or possibly I'm not asking the right way? Please, let's hear what you've got.

[Melkor]

To be honest, i feel a huge reason why some characters avoid teaching is laziness. I teach affiliated newbies often, and each time dedicate a solid 30-60 minute RP session of a lession before using the teach command. In order to be IC, i feel this is obligatory, and many players would rather not dedicate that time to a character which will be extremely likely to die in the next month.

[sleepyhead]

30-60 minutes? I always RP before using the teach command, but damn. If that's really obligatory, I guess I was abusing the command without realizing it.

[Melkor]

Though I'm not staff, bud.  Im just a dude giving my opinion.

[gotdamnmiracle]

30-60 minutes? I always RP before using the teach command, but damn. If that's really obligatory, I guess I was abusing the command without realizing it.

Well, I think 30-60 minutes is a bit much, but the idea is right.

In a perfect world the scene would be something like, let's practice shield today, fights with shield, teaches lesson regarding shield as you recover, changes weapon while using shield still, final bout, call it for the night and discuss related story, because everyone loves cool stories. That's my formula at least.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I never got the feeling that people were hesitant to use the teach command just that they didn't want to RP teaching or maybe their character just didn't feel like it. Could it be that some newer players (~5 years) just don't know about the command?

I had a Byn Sgt once (Dagaz, a mul) that taught via lessons almost exclusively. He would give a small lecture, have someone demonstrate, criticize them, and 'teach'.

30-60 does seem a bit extreme - as a player, I would just get bored.

[manipura]

30-60 minutes? I always RP before using the teach command, but damn. If that's really obligatory, I guess I was abusing the command without realizing it.

I've used teach often, with certain characters more often than others. 
I think expecting a one hour session before using teach is a little extreme and unnecessary.  I don't think RPing lessons that are less than an hour is abusing anything.

Sixty minutes is six game hours and a day is only nine hours. 
That's like saying a person can't learn anything new about a skill in RL unless they undergo sixteen hours of learning. 

There's a grey area between tossing out a single emote and RPing two thirds  of a game day and I think somewhere in that grey area is nice middle ground for most players to properly use teach.

Mabe it's underused because players aren't aware it exists?

[sleepyhead]

I know it exists but I straight-up forget to use it. I can't be the only one.

[Melkor]

30 minutes takes you from dawn to high sun. Is it so unreasonable to spend a morning teaching someone? If the skill is ride, i would ride out with the noob give instruction throughout the day, and use teach at the end of the ride, near sundown.

[sleepyhead]

I don't find it unreasonable at all. I just didn't think it was required.

[Miradus]

I don't find it unreasonable at all. I just didn't think it was required.

I don't think it IS required. I've spent as little as 5 minutes before I threw out the teach command and nobody stomped me for it.  I really need to spend half a game day explaining to someone to keep their shield up?

It gives you (apparently) like a tiny tick of skill rather than turning you from a novice to a journeyman. If it gave more of a bonus then I'd say a longer time should be required for the RP, but since it's such a minor thing then why bother?

[Melkor]

If i use carpentry as an analogy, I couldnt teach a person shit about being a carpenter in 5 minutes. This is why an apprenticeship lasts for years before a carpenter reaches journeyman status.

[Miradus]

If i use carpentry as an analogy, I couldnt teach a person shit about being a carpenter in 5 minutes. This is why an apprenticeship lasts for years before a carpenter reaches journeyman status.

Sure you could.

"Don't stick your finger in the saw."

There. That took less than 30 seconds and you got .001 uptick on your Carpentry skill. Which seems to be about what the in-game teach skill is going to give you.

[Melkor]

If the teach skill is truly that insignificant, i would consider this a non-issue. But i do not believe the teach command imparts a 1/1000th of a percent of a skill. Meaning, to get from novice to apprentice without using said skill, the teach command would need to be used 100k times. I seriously doubt this.

[nessalin]

If the teach skill is truly that insignificant, i would consider this a non-issue. But i do not believe the teach command imparts a 1/1000th of a percent of a skill. Meaning, to get from novice to apprentice without using said skill, the teach command would need to be used 100k times. I seriously doubt this.

Skills are not measured below 1%.  They're integer values, so there are no fractions/decimal values.

Gaining from 0 goes to 1, not any value between zero and one.

[nessalin]

I had a Byn Sgt once (Dagaz, a mul) that taught via lessons almost exclusively. He would give a small lecture, have someone demonstrate, criticize them, and 'teach'.

Do you mean Davaz?

[gotdamnmiracle]

I was hesitant to mention that because it doesn't seem to follow. Assuming you're a veteran teaching a subordinate, you are gaining little from it, so you are doing it to their benefit. The lesson could easily be as little as three to four Tells long supported by a couple emotes. All done in a time period when you are just sitting there. Unless you're afking I don't see why you wouldn't use that.

[Melkor]

If the teach skill is truly that insignificant, i would consider this a non-issue. But i do not believe the teach command imparts a 1/1000th of a percent of a skill. Meaning, to get from novice to apprentice without using said skill, the teach command would need to be used 100k times. I seriously doubt this.

Skills are not measured below 1%.  They're integer values, so there are no fractions/decimal values.

Gaining from 0 goes to 1, not any value between zero and one.

Understood. (Edited) so, how significant is the teach skill, really?

[hexus]

PCs die so fast many times.
A few minutes spent brawling in the Gaj
with another PC can be opportunity to use
the command when some RP is squeezed
between coded echoes.
I taught a two weapon skill if I remember
right to a set new set of boots while
beating them up IG proper.
Seemed they loved it and sought further RP
often.
Its attractive to offer subtle aid even to an
enemy, not just folks drilled with that I like,
it struck me one day. I try of course to use
it sparingly with RP around every use.
The time spent is dependant on individual
circumstances and I like it that way.
Even saw a chance one to use the command
on one of my PCs own instructors while
showing someone else a few " tricks" like
avoiding fingers in the saw.
You guys rock.
Made me think how to better my own rp,
command use, and to lure new players
long enough to get over the command
hump to see what this game really offers.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Speaking from experience, you can go from novice to apprentice without ever touching the skill if the teacher is skilled enough. That's absolutely huge, and it justifies an appropriate amount of RP (5ish minutes in addition to practicing the skill is more than reasonable in my opinion, but I feel it's all personal preference)

I feel like staff won't dog you if you attempt to RP. There's a vast gap between teaching without saying a word or emoting once and attempting to paint a scene, even if it is a sloppy one. I've never encountered the former and I think it exists as more of a hypothetical pole than anything.

It exists in the same manner as a death scene. Think how little is added to the game when three very short hooded figures enter the same room without a word and type /kill amos/, silently attacking you. Imagine how angry that would make you. Use common sense and try to add something to the game, not add another notch to your belt, be it skilling up or pking.

[Melkor]

Gdm, youre spot on.

In that case, do you think players avoid teaching in order to avoid scrutiny from big brother?

[gotdamnmiracle]

Nah. I think it's lack of awareness and forgetfulness. If I had one request from my leaders IG it would be to try and use this command and RP (emphasis on the RP here) to make the most boring part of being in the Byn, AOD, Wyverns, and The Fist a lot more interesting by giving it a purpose as a lesson rather than just "That time of day when we hit eachother".

[Armaddict]

I have literally 0 qualms with teach being used, though I do think that overall it should be a sparingly used command.

My roleplay sessions before using it are usually between 5-20 minutes.  Simple explanations, since I'm not a professional in many of those things in real life, so there's some appreciation from me if you don't treat it like I just treated you like a moron.  I'm coming up with this shit on the fly, bear with me! XD

I think, largely, one of the 'veteran' concerns with using is from an era where twinking was far more prevalent, and also the concern that skyrocketing people in their capability will reduce their need for you.  It's always disappointing when you are a leader-type in a clan by skill, and training with you is a boon for that clan, but people basically use you for your couple teaches then bail on you.  It's just one of those things you use sparingly so that yes, you'll get it, but no, I'm not going to empower you to just go off and do your own thing at my expense.  I'm teaching you so that you'll help me, not so that you can skip the grind.

That may be an unpopular viewpoint with people.  But that's why I tend to spread out teach sessions over a long period of time.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Do you mean Davaz?

Nope, that was the Kuraci one. I believe Dagaz (mine in the Byn) was around prior to him but I'm not positive. They may have even been alive during the same time for awhile. I think Dagaz was somewhere between 2005-2007

[Lizzie]

If "novice" is 1-9 and "apprentice" is 10-19, and your novice rider showed up in the game with "xyz awesome stats" and was a half-elf with the correct guild/subguild and all the moons were aligned, then a single teach skill could absolutely bump the new PC to apprentice without the new player having ever even tried to mount a mount. That's because they started out at 9, and got that one point necessary to bump them to 10.

That's just an aside though.

Meanwhile, back on topic: I love the teach skill and I try to use it whenever appropriate. I'm not picky about how long it takes. It depends on what I'm "teaching." If I'm teaching someone how to use a thimble so they don't stick themselves with a needle every time they try and sew, then it'll take an emote and a "tell tailor-PC" and boom. They been teached. If it's teaching them how to ride and they claim they've never been on a mount before and their attempts are fucking up every single time - I'll spend a little more than that - maybe a solid 10 RL minutes of lessons on how to hold the reins, how to sit up in the saddle, how to use their knees and hold their posture, etc. etc.

If I'm in a situation where there's a schedule we have to adhere to anyway (like dawn to mid-sun), I'll just use that as my guideline and use the "teach" command before they break for a snack.

[Miradus]

That's more or less what I expect from teach, Lizzie.

If someone doesn't understand the mechanics of the code, I'll IC it a long explanation until I think they get the mechanics. If they clearly understand the mechanics but we're just training up together then I'm not going to go near into depth.

[LucildaHunta]

Maybe I've been lucky in my rp, but anytime I've played in a fighting clan, particularly one with a schedule, someone was always teaching something. I think what ends up happening especially ones with high turnover, sometimes you might be unlucky enough to have missed the slashing lesson for example.

Anytime I've ever made it to a certain level, I've always tried to use it to help other players. Sort of a pay it forward type of thing. I can't say I've ever seen it abused.

The problem I see is when you're playing in a smaller clan, you might be the only person with certain skills. Then there is nobody to teach you or you don't share playtimes, so you're kind of on your own. If you do have someone in your clan with the same skill set, you're hoping to god they're on the same page as you as far as that type of thing goes. I think what happens is sometimes players see another competent player and assume they don't need help. Or that sort of master/pupil relationship isn't there.

It never hurts to ask either.

[Nergal]

Teach does work, and rather well at that, in instances where the teacher has sufficient information to impart to the student. That being said, skills gain on a timer - once you gain in a skill, you cannot gain in it for a time. Teach is included in this mechanic. So if you want someone to learn something, you may want to RP lessons before activity takes place that can result in skill failures - for example, holding a lesson before a sparring session or a ride.

[Miradus]

Teach does work, and rather well at that, in instances where the teacher has sufficient information to impart to the student. That being said, skills gain on a timer - once you gain in a skill, you cannot gain in it for a time. Teach is included in this mechanic. So if you want someone to learn something, you may want to RP lessons before activity takes place that can result in skill failures - for example, holding a lesson before a sparring session or a ride.

Holy crap. That's huge. I've been doing it wrong.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Teach does work, and rather well at that, in instances where the teacher has sufficient information to impart to the student. That being said, skills gain on a timer - once you gain in a skill, you cannot gain in it for a time. Teach is included in this mechanic. So if you want someone to learn something, you may want to RP lessons before activity takes place that can result in skill failures - for example, holding a lesson before a sparring session or a ride.

Thank you for the insight, Nergal. That's awesome!

[John]

30-60 minutes? I always RP before using the teach command, but damn. If that's really obligatory, I guess I was abusing the command without realizing it.

I don't think you need 30 to 60 mins. I think you can have OOC 10 to OOC 20 mins which are 1 to 2 IC hours.

Skills are not measured below 1%.  They're integer values, so there are no fractions/decimal values.

Gaining from 0 goes to 1, not any value between zero and one.

Understood. (Edited) so, how significant is the teach skill, really?

Assuming the number really is 1%, then that would indicate it is equal to 1 skill failure. It takes using a skill potentially only once to get that failure (I don't know if you automatically go up by 1 each failure, or if there is a chance you'll go up by 1, or if you sometimes go up by more than 1 via teach or failing).

30 minutes takes you from dawn to high sun. Is it so unreasonable to spend a morning teaching someone?

To bring real life into it: At high school I would have classes that went for 40 mins (or 7 OOC mins for the Zalanthan 1 hour) and I would learn something within that time. I think 10 to 20 mins of solid roleplay is all that's needed to justify the teach command.

In that case, do you think players avoid teaching in order to avoid scrutiny from big brother?

Back before skills were visible, it felt like the only time you could successfully teach someone is if they had never used the skill before. Now that skills are visible I can confirm that you can be at least at apprentice and still benefit from the teach command. I don't know how much difference there needs to be with teacher and student though. And I think that's the main reason people don't use it more (that and forgetfulness). I think we get so accustomed to the idea that player's must grind to "git gud" that we forget there are much easier and more IC ways to do so. While clans may encourage the use of the teach command, there is nothing stopping you from doing so with two unclanned characters.

I've definitely been guilty of "I'm just going to grind rather than find a teacher." Based on recent experience I might change that mentality with future characters.

Holy crap. That's huge. I've been doing it wrong.

On the other hand you've been doing it fine. You've been taking what is a tedious task at times (skilling up) and given the player some tips on how to roleplay what they're doing that they may impart on future characters. Regardless of whether they got the skill up from a failure or because you used the teach command should be irrelevant if fun was had and the appropriate IC actions were taken. I'd rather skill up with a teacher (regardless of how I'm skilling up) then weighing myself down with heavy blocks of stone and searching for tregils or whatever the current NPC of choice to use is (never actually done the bag of blocks thing on purpose and believe it is no longer effective).

[Dresan]

Teach is one of the coolest skills in the game, that can make a good RP scene into a great one. Heck, it can make any encounter go from meh to amazing.

Unfortunately, I feel that there aren't enough guildlines around it. This has made the use of the skill very much like backstab was in the past, where one staff member was okay with what they saw, while another left you a don't backstab animals or else message. The way i've taught, it to pass on words of wisdom found in helpfiles often, and little bits of knowledge I've learned around a skill. Most skills have quirks after all. At least its interesting, especially when you are teaching a true newbie. Usually it begins a conversation/discussion with questions which will make those minutes fly. Yes there should be some RP involved, but 20-30 mins of coming up with bullshit around a skill that may or may not work differently in someone else's imagination is a bit much to me at least. I would like to see the skill used more, and I would like to use the skill more myself, but does feel like you may be playing russian roulette with staff half the time.

This is a skill of goodwill towards another player and creates meaningful interaction. Rather not see people fearful of using it 'improperly'. Instead,  I would rather see more guildlines in the helpfile or the skill being changed to something where you begin teaching and depending on when you stop, a certain amount of skill is learned. That way there is much value in teaching for 10+ mins than 2-4 mins, but still beneficial either way.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I don't foresee any change in the Teach mechanic, nor do I believe there should be one. I think it is best left to common sense and see no reason to be overly cautious with it. I trust that a PC watching or staff will be able to make it clear that the line from good play to abuse has been crossed. Frankly, if you were dumping Teaches on me without a word I would be just as inclined to not play with your PC as I would if you were doing the same thing with sparring. What's the point of an RPI without the first two letters?

[Dresan]

I don't think I've seen anyone walk up and randomly teach someone. The thing I've seen people do is say a few lines and then teach. Again, its not the best role play, they are still taking the time of day to try to enrich someone else's experience. They could have just as easily kept on walking.

I don't think it is best to common sense, for example, in a game with a modest population, where effort is being made to improve the experience, this doesn't seem common sense to me:

Frankly, if you were dumping Teaches on me without a word I would be just as inclined to not play with your PC

There is nothing wrong with your line of thought, it just doesn't make sense to me. People just think differently when there is no defined consensus. In short, I would still like to see some solid guildlines in the helpfiles. 

[John]

There is nothing wrong with your line of thought, it just doesn't make sense to me. People just think differently when there is no defined consensus. In short, I would still like to see some solid guildlines in the helpfiles.

I really don't think we need guidelines for people to not "west; teach man; west" which is the impression I got from goddamnmiracle (maybe not that quite extreme, but close to it).

[Dresan]

My point is that "maybe not that quite extreme, but close to it" should be defined, since I have yet to see anyone do west; teach man; west myself, ever. I do remember a staff member mention they expected a good afternoon (20mins~) of teaching before teach skill is used, which is alot more time than anyone has mentioned so far (oh nevermind someone mentioned even more time than that already). 

Just to add, 5-10 mins always seemed okay to me.

[John]

Just to add, 5-10 mins always seemed okay to me.

Just do what you think is IC and staff will alert you if they care enough to get angry.

[gotdamnmiracle]

There is nothing wrong with your line of thought, it just doesn't make sense to me. People just think differently when there is no defined consensus. In short, I would still like to see some solid guildlines in the helpfiles.

I really don't think we need guidelines for people to not "west; teach man; west" which is the impression I got from goddamnmiracle (maybe not that quite extreme, but close to it).

Actually, I was saying the exact opposite of that and urging people to stick to role playing in addition to using the teach skill without the need for a set of rules.

I'm not sure how you came up with either one of the the black-white examples I was trying to urge people away from, but I can tell from your comments above that you seem to have similar intent, so no worries.

[solera]

I wish teach was independent of the skill timer. RP is RP, whether it is backed by code or not, but it would be nice not to have that niggling thought, "If only I had got here before he started busting rocks."

[Riev]

I wish teach was independent of the skill timer. RP is RP, whether it is backed by code or not, but it would be nice not to have that niggling thought, "If only I had got here before he started busting rocks."

Honestly, this has been my biggest gripe about the Teach code. Its AWESOME to teach a dozen Runners about Shield Use without them having to individually spar and "get them fails".

However, most Teach moments end up being "hold your shield like this;teach shield use;okay now spar" which doesn't do anyone any good anyway. I think the mechanics behind Teach, to me, are so arcane that I assume "okay well MAYBE I get a skill up from this person teaching me, but if I don't... did they waste their RP? Did I "know" what they taught already? Do I pass it off that this was interesting, if someone just taught a highschooler how to do basic addition?"

Teach is amazing, ESPECIALLY with weapon skills, for various reasons. But if you're just going to go for fails anyway.. *shrug*

[Nergal]

What's arcane about the mechanics behind teach? It's actually very simple, but players ascribe complications to it that don't exist. The helpfile goes into everything:
- It grants skill gain based on the difference in skill level between the teacher and student
- The student must "spend time absorbing the new information" (skill timer)
- If your student is about as good at you as the skill, you won't be able to teach them much (or anything at all)

That's literally all there is to it. Use roleplay to determine if a student would benefit from a lesson, then use roleplay to conduct lessons. Is there anything that should be made clearer?

[RogueGunslinger]

It should ignore skilltimers or have its own. The only situations it seems useful are for skills impossible to practice with someone else. Like backstab. Otherwise its uselessly overlapping with training the skill.

Giving someone a lesson during training should amplify that training. Not be useless.

[nessalin]

We're certainly not going to remove the skill gain timer from teaching only to end up policing abuse of the teach where someone uses it to teach another character a skill up to their max teachable % in a matter of a few minutes.  It's difficult to understand how anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

[gotdamnmiracle]

We're certainly not going to remove the skill gain timer from teaching only to end up policing abuse of the teach where someone uses it to teach another character a skill up to their max teachable % in a matter of a few minutes.  It's difficult to understand how anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

I don't think it is a good idea.

Would it, however, be possible to alter the help file to make it clear that teach is best utilized prior to sparring or crafting by virtue of it's code. It needn't be mentioned that it uses the same timer, but don't see why it can't also be mentioned considering it was already discussed here. I feel like a lot of the feeling regarding it being useless is related to misunderstanding of it's use.

[RogueGunslinger]

We're certainly not going to remove the skill gain timer from teaching only to end up policing abuse of the teach where someone uses it to teach another character a skill up to their max teachable % in a matter of a few minutes.  It's difficult to understand how anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

It's difficult to understand why you singled in on that one aspect of the idea. When I also said it should have its own timer. Look I have no idea how any of this would be implemented. But if your natural reaction is to take every idea to its most illogical conclusion than it really doesn't matter what is suggested, as it seems you're already closed to the idea of making a change.

[nessalin]

We're certainly not going to remove the skill gain timer from teaching only to end up policing abuse of the teach where someone uses it to teach another character a skill up to their max teachable % in a matter of a few minutes.  It's difficult to understand how anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

It's difficult to understand why you singled in on that one aspect of the idea. When I also said it should have its own timer. Look I have no idea how any of this would be implemented. But if your natural reaction is to take every idea to its most illogical conclusion than it really doesn't matter what is suggested, as it seems you're already closed to the idea of making a change.

Putting forward the idea that the command could be abused by raising someone's skill to its max teachable value is not "its most illogical conclusion".  It is actually the reality of what would likely happen based on a few decades of observing player behavior.  While things like this happen less than they used to, and rarely happen out of malice, the reality is they do happen and we do spend time policing them when we could be doing other things.  Instead we put code limits in to ensure we don't have to.

We're not under any compulsion to either address each post in full or not respond at all.  My response was addressing the point I felt dragged down the rest of your post as a sort of poison pill.  You're welcome to continue on with your suggestion, but that idea would be a deal breaker.

I'm open to making changes as has been demonstrating greatly by our code projects over the last two years.  If you disagree then I feel you're either mis-informed or that you are the one that has already closed their mind.

Finally, a suggestion.  When proposing ideas, making change requests, or pointing out perceived flaws in the game, slow your roll a bit before speaking in absolutes, citing false causes, or indulging in the straw man fallacy.  We're here working to make the game a better place not score fake internet points.

[WarriorPoet]

I like teach and use it often. 20 minutes on the proper way to use a spear? Teach. 45 minute meandering lecture on knife-making? Teach. Two line emote about showing that poor bastard to sit forward a bit on that beetle, grip with your legs! Teach it up.

[RogueGunslinger]

We're certainly not going to remove the skill gain timer from teaching only to end up policing abuse of the teach where someone uses it to teach another character a skill up to their max teachable % in a matter of a few minutes.  It's difficult to understand how anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

It's difficult to understand why you singled in on that one aspect of the idea. When I also said it should have its own timer. Look I have no idea how any of this would be implemented. But if your natural reaction is to take every idea to its most illogical conclusion than it really doesn't matter what is suggested, as it seems you're already closed to the idea of making a change.

We're not under any compulsion to either address each post in full or not respond at all.  My response was addressing the point I felt dragged down the rest of your post as a sort of poison pill.

The point that dragged it down, that you focused on, had a solution in the very same sentence.

As for absolutes, false causes and straw men, I don't see how they have relevance to what I posted. I never said you were adverse to changing things. I said it seems like you've given up on the idea of changing Teach because of the curt way you responded to my post.

What kind of response do you think this:

It's difficult to understand how anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

Is supposed to illicit?

[nessalin]

Skills are not measured below 1%.  They're integer values, so there are no fractions/decimal values.

Gaining from 0 goes to 1, not any value between zero and one.

Understood. (Edited) so, how significant is the teach skill, really?

Assuming the number really is 1%, then that would indicate it is equal to 1 skill failure. It takes using a skill potentially only once to get that failure (I don't know if you automatically go up by 1 each failure, or if there is a chance you'll go up by 1, or if you sometimes go up by more than 1 via teach or failing).

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  I did not mean that it gains specifically and explicitly 1% at a time.  Rather I meant to illustrate that skills only increase by whole numbers, not by fractions.  Different skills increase by different amounts, per skill gain.
0 to 1
0 to 2
...
0 to N

Never
0 to 0.75
0 to 1.25
...
0 to N.NN

[gotdamnmiracle]

But a successful teach is equivalent to a guaranteed gain, correct? Also, reading the helpfile seems to suggest that having a teacher of a much higher skill level will impart a larger chunk towards the teachee's skill. Is that correct?

[Chettaman]

Having not read much but the first post I'll describe how I use the teach command:

It always helps to know some actual knowledge about what you're ''teaching''. For instance how cotton bandages are a terrible idea because the little pieces of cotton will get stuck in the wound and the body will heal over those little pieces and cause infection.
You tell someone something like that as you use a cotton on your bandage and explain how cotton will absorb more blood and the bandage will keep the cotton from touching the wound.
Boom >teach dood bandage

or in combat, since combat is something really difficult for some people to understand and yes it is a lengthy thing to cover with words and such. So I just emote it mostly.

>emote using the same weapon as ~guy, @me describes, names, and demonstrates several moves. He demonstrates the moves once more describing their use, misuse, and how to counter them.

--- and then I usually wait and hopefully the other person emotes that they do indeed practice or they roleplay not getting it and I roleplay helping them understand.
I usually end the emote-teach session with some words like, "So that's this and that and now ou have to practice practice practice.
>teach guy shield use;teach guy slashing weapons

I try not to do it everyday, but there's no reason not to if you roleplay correctly.

[Riev]

But a successful teach is equivalent to a guaranteed gain, correct? Also, reading the helpfile seems to suggest that having a teacher of a much higher skill level will impart a larger chunk towards the teachee's skill. Is that correct?

This command allows your character to instruct another in the use of a skill or spell. The amount of knowledge imparted depends on the knowledge level of the student and the difference between the teacher's and the student's ability. The student must spend some time absorbing the new information before he or she can learn more.

Teaching is most effective to impart the 'basics' of a skill to someone; if they have already mastered the basics, then the effectiveness of the lessons are reduced.

This is what I meant by it being a bit arcane. Does being taught by a master mean you get TWO points learned in a skill? Does being successfully taught mean you get AT LEAST a point/successful skillup? What is meant by "basics"? Does this mean any teaching above "Apprentice" is reduced? Does that reduction mean a potential "failure" to skill up?

All that is pertinent information when determining whether a session is better run as an RP Teach session, or a coded combat session, especially when hidden values/skills exist that are not affected by the Teach code.

[Delirium]

Or you can do both and not worry so much about it?

[Chettaman]

Yeah. I do both. I'll RP teach, codedly use teach and then say, "Strap yoself, fool!" and offer to combat them with their "new" knowledge.

Of course I'm going to best them, but after a while of doing it. You see improvement and they get to a level where they can actually make you afraid to lose and you just want to cry a little. From pride.

-- or even reverse. I'll do combat and do some flashy moves and then explain my flashy moves and then codedly teach.

[Miradus]

-- or even reverse. I'll do combat and do some flashy moves and then explain my flashy moves and then codedly teach.

Didn't we learn in this thread that the reverse does nothing?

They swing at your superior booty a few times with their sword and miss, get the hidden tick up in skill, and then you say, "Let me show you how to use that sword."

And you teach, but it's not going to do anything because the regular skill timer has been triggered?

Seems to me you either teach before you show or you don't bother. The roleplay is immaterial to the code. You can do the roleplay either before, after, or however you want. But if you are going to teach a skill, they need to have not just failed the skill or you might as well not bother.

[Riev]

Miradus hits on what I'm talking about here. While I understand what Delerium means, and often I'm of the same mindset, we have the topic open so I'm putting my thoughts at face value.

If Teach, when the teach-ed person gets a successful message, means they got a tick up in their skill, further training in that skill is absolutely meaningless, and when it comes to combat skills, only becomes useful for those hidden skill factors.

If I'm teaching someone how to make bone swords, and I give them an amazing RP lesson, they don't need to try those techniques CODEDLY because a failure will do nothing for them. At this point, I don't feel its twinky at all to want to know how teach works AT LEAST enough to determine whether you're going to need that failure, or not. And if a master sword crafter is teaching someone at Journeyman, do they get the same "size" bump from teach as an apprentice would? Does that mean novices may even get +2, or +3?

[gotdamnmiracle]

She's saying that if one fails to do what you want, then hopefully the other will complete it for you. Honestly, I agree with this. In the case of combat, you accomplish training like five fifferent things with a successful bout. If I teach you how to stab with a spear or swing a blade, that doesn't necessarily mean your footwork isn't going to be garbage.

If you wanted to get the most bang for your buck I'd suggest teaching the skill from a defensive perspective. Like, telling them to grab a club and shield and YOU take up a spear and explain to them how a spear is best used, and how to counteract it. That's a ton accomplished all at once, even if it takes a bit of a liberal approach to teach, I think it still sufficiently hits the wickets.

[Chettaman]

Didn't we learn in this thread that the reverse does nothing?

I got to roleplay being the badass teacher.
If anyone gets upset that I didn't do it the right way they may submit a player complaint to staff or to me. 

But I am understanding your point of  how useless it is.
And then I get distracted and wonder why we do so many things in life and contemplate the word "useless".
Then I think of the people I've used "teach on" and see how far they've progressed and it brings a tear to my eye to know that they don't daddy anymore.

So. Whatever the case my be... I do it forwards and reverse and enjoy roleplaying caring only about whether or not the players I'm with enjoy what's happening. lol Even if it means giving them the false truth of me using "teach" on them.

[Miradus]

*SIGH*

You would still have been a badass teacher in roleplay. Nobody is going to take that away from you.

But if you had thrown out the teach command before they did the thing, then you would have been a badass teacher in roleplay AND they would have gotten a bigger benefit out of it codedly, thus allowing your badass teacher to exist both in the digital code AND your head canon.

[WanderingOoze]

Your fun is wrong!

[Miradus]

You know, I appreciate the hell out of a good roleplayer and I'm going to be pleased to see someone being the teacher.

But the reality is now, in the light of the code reveal, if your goal is to improve my skills codedly and you teach me after I already failed and activated my timer ... you didn't do shit.

That's completely separate from having the fun with the roleplay. And since you're GOING to a coded command to try to improve the skill, then I have to assume that if you throw out a teach command you WANT to do it properly so there's a benefit.

So to hell with all this "I'm a better roleplayer because I don't care about code" nonsense. If that was true then a player wouldn't be using the coded command in the first place. It's like saying, "I roleplay putting bandages on people instead of actually doing it." Well, that's awesome that you roleplay that but you're not really codedly doing anything.

Damn virtue signaling in roleplay. This is ridiculous. My thanks to the imm who explained how the code works and I'm happy to use it now as it apparently was codedly intended to be used.

ETA: That sounds harsher than I meant it to be. All I'm trying to say is the roleplay is cool and all, but we are talking about an actual coded function here.

[nessalin]

Hmmm, I'd always hold back a reserve of skepticism on what code was intended to do.    Like many features, the teach command is old as dirt and its original purpose, which may be separate from developer intent, has been buried under layers of how it has been incorporated into player culture (which we're seeing discussed in this thread) and staff desire (same, to a lesser degree).

While we've always sort of known that teach/skillgain use the same timer, and as a result cancel each other out in an individual session, it hasn't been a huge deal worth doing a re-write over.

Certainly the help file should be updated in light of the demonstrated delta between reality & player perception (no slight, there, it's an opaque feature).  Possibly code should be updated, too.

Some of the logic on % imparted on teach and how the differences in pupil / teacher skill values come into play was pulled from the Runequest game system, where teaching between campaigns could be used as a way to up skills without experience.  It was also heavily tilted towards knowledge based skills which weren't going to go up by staring at a book all day.

[Riev]

While ideally, teach and skillgain would work off separate timers, I think just updating the file on teach with expectations on RP from staff and a notation that if you successfully teach someone a skill, it will count towards learning that skill and repeated failures afterwards are codedly unnecessary.

I'm actually ALL for people teaching me like... slashing weapons without being in more than  a couple sparring sessions, for REASONS, but I feel like if someone is teaching a workshop on how to ... I don't know. Ride properly? The ride teach is all you need, they don't then need to go running around the city for 10-15 minutes for a failure, its just a waste of time.

[nessalin]

While ideally, teach and skillgain would work off separate timers, I think just updating the file on teach with expectations on RP from staff and a notation that if you successfully teach someone a skill, it will count towards learning that skill and repeated failures afterwards are codedly unnecessary.

I'm actually ALL for people teaching me like... slashing weapons without being in more than  a couple sparring sessions, for REASONS, but I feel like if someone is teaching a workshop on how to ... I don't know. Ride properly? The ride teach is all you need, they don't then need to go running around the city for 10-15 minutes for a failure, its just a waste of time.

Yeah.

Or the teach command will make your next skillgain in that skill be a larger than normal boost.

Using it before sparring, get a nicer boost off sparing right away.  RP it as they just showed you something useful.

Using after sparring - no harm - you'll still get your boost NEXT time, after thinking for a while on what your instructor taught you.  RP it as they explained what you did wrong, and you need to do better next time.

[Riev]

That'd be an interesting tweak. Like a lingering status effect that the next gain on a that particular skill is doubled (assuming 1pt increases each time). That way its not "I just taught you how to parry, you should know how" but more "the next time to don't parry, you'll remember this lesson and try harder".

I'd be for the idea. Though I often avoid asking for code changes when transparency will do. But of course, the idea is a better one than simply 'laying out how it works currently'.

[FantasyWriter]

Yeah.

Or the teach command will make your next skillgain in that skill be a larger than normal boost.

Using it before sparring, get a nicer boost off sparing right away.  RP it as they just showed you something useful.

Using after sparring - no harm - you'll still get your boost NEXT time, after thinking for a while on what your instructor taught you.  RP it as they explained what you did wrong, and you need to do better next time.

I think those ideas seem much more realistic compared to RL learning than the current +X bump when user A uses the Teach command on user B. Awesome idea!