Author Topic: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves  (Read 3519 times)

Synthesis

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2017, 03:23:32 AM »
Am I the only one who doesn't like the "Engrained in their brains" mentality of "can't ride mounts" when they physically are not superior to their sand dune running asshole cousins? If they like running so much they should have stayed at a level of "We live in the city and hunt outside of it" that they should have kept their running ability.
And if they did grow out of it, they should have mentally adjusted.

#somethingsomethingelvishevolution

I doubt this will ever be changed.

In 2010, I went through the trouble of going through all existing elf-related documentation and proposing changes that would retcon the idea and produce consistent documentation that allowed city-elves to ride.  I believe the response essentially was *crickets*.
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Jihelu

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2017, 03:29:16 AM »
Am I the only one who doesn't like the "Engrained in their brains" mentality of "can't ride mounts" when they physically are not superior to their sand dune running asshole cousins? If they like running so much they should have stayed at a level of "We live in the city and hunt outside of it" that they should have kept their running ability.
And if they did grow out of it, they should have mentally adjusted.

#somethingsomethingelvishevolution

I doubt this will ever be changed.

In 2010, I went through the trouble of going through all existing elf-related documentation and proposing changes that would retcon the idea and produce consistent documentation that allowed city-elves to ride.  I believe the response essentially was *crickets*.

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chrisdcoulombe

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2017, 05:16:44 AM »
I love playing city elves.  City elf warrior is the best out the box raider of all time.
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Cind

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2017, 05:38:31 AM »
Staff once told me I could not both be an elf and restrict my thievery to virtual (noncoded) thefts, which has kept me from playing city elves ever since.

Although, honestly, I think they just misunderstood me, since the way thievery is set up, you could not live an elf's full life all the way through while stealing 2-3 times a RL week.

I'd rather play something else well than play an elf badly.
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Harmless

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2017, 08:09:07 AM »
I don't want to play city elves much anymore because I keep feeling disappointed when my companion c elves die off. I have seen some cool stuff accomplished by good city elves, and it was an honor to walk (NOT run) beside them. City elves are kind of a joke; all the bonuses they get are totally meh. The punchline is that they always die. Nobody here can impress me with how long lived their city elf was, it was never enough to start a tribe or family. Everyone, including myself, seems to run out of steam fighting this lonely fight and gets reckless and then dies or disappears. I stopped caring about the problem because nobody else seems to either.

The only thing that would get me to play a city elf again at this point would be a family role call from one of the few players I was able to clan up with as a city elf before, because I know that they can handle the task. I'm not a leader really and more of a follower/supporter. So if someone posted on here and said, "Hi, I'm an experienced c elf, I played as ***, and I'm looking for some family blood to roll up characters with me." I would apply straight away to join them (if I can see their post on this cluttered GDB).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 08:19:05 AM by Harmless »
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Miradus

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2017, 09:17:45 AM »

The problem isn't city elves as coded, I feel.

They have a part of the city they effectively hold (as well as anyone holds anything). They have shops and their own bar. They have tunnels in and out of the city, and they have food and water. They have their agility + steal/hide/sneak and are effective at their role.

They are submarines where some people want to play them as destroyers.

But unlike the Guild, there's no reason to associate with city elves. Sure, a few of them join the Byn to try to circumvent the social issues and once they get a shitcloak on their back they can pretend they are just a very dodgy human, but at the end of the day they have nothing they offer to the city.

People put up with the Guild because the Guild offers spice, cheap goods (resale), and access to assassins. (The elves offer all of that too, but less effectively and with no organization.)

There is nothing they offer on their own. No gear, no skills, no unique roleplay (unless you want to feel the fun of being known as an elf-kanker), and no items.

To sum it up ... city elves are fun to play, but not particularly fun to play WITH. And until that changes, don't expect to see many of them succeed.


Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2017, 10:02:52 AM »
I agree with Miradus, actually. I've seen people try to start C-Elf clans, and had great fun either being a part of their creation or destruction. But the Guild offers spice, black market dealings, assassinations, and all that 'cool' stuff you go to the shit-part of the city to trade in. When elves start trying to do anything similar, they are now treading on Guild turf and get slapped down for it pretty quickly. In Tuluk, the clan a staffer had started was a clan of artisans that actually had a "purpose" in the city, alongside their nefarious deeds, but there was no Guild presence.

I think if a C-elf family were to exist like, outright to be fences... or to be artisans of some kind (stonework, high-agility painters, etc) who focused more on that, and kind of on the side might have burglars and thieves to supplement their income, it'd be better than "lets get 3 elves together and start slinging spice".

Thoughts? Would it be better if the clan had something to offer, even if mostly virtual, than a direct conflict with an established staff-backed clan? I feel at least then, if someone IS slinging spice, its more of a "well we'll deal with it" rather than "DESTROY THE WHOLE FAMILY THEY SOLD SOMEONE A PINCH OF METH!"
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Dar

  • Posts: 1136
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2017, 12:51:37 PM »
I thoroughly enjoy playing Celves. I've pretty much stopped playing delves after Red Fangs stopped being a beaten dog of less then a day lifespan.

I love how difficult it is to play celves. I enjoy how rewarding it feels when a lowly celf, in spite of tremendous obstacles, manages to become great and grudgingly respected.

It is definitely not an easy role. But I truthfully do not think they should have anymore coded bonuses. Not because they dont need them. Holy fuck on a rat kebob, do they need more coded goodies. But in my opinion, if you're having it easy as a celf, something is not right.  Is it an exercise in masochism? Yes. It sort of is. Synthesis put it well once. But ... it is still a fun exercise :). And the rewards and the feelings of success are awesome.


Edit: By the way. Celves get steal, but not hide and sneak.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 01:57:07 PM by Dar »

FantasyWriter

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2017, 02:03:54 PM »
Grudgingly respected characters are always the best.
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Grebber - One who grebs.

Miradus

  • Posts: 1669
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2017, 11:54:33 PM »

There's a bit of respect in starting as a player clan. You could be the top dog in your own clan.

One of my gripes about the established groups (each and every one of them) is that you're always some lowly lieutenant. In every clan there's higher ups who exist only virtually but are always there to come screw up your plan if you start getting outside the lines of where you're told to color or if you pick the wrong crayon. It's frustrating to know that you can't really claw your way to the top of ANYTHING that's already established.

But the other side I've seen is that there's a measure of respect you automatically get if you're part of an established group. Oh, you're an assassin? That's great. Where's the Arm? Oh, you're an assassin with the Guild? I got a job for you.

It's a player community thing that I don't really understand. It's like how suddenly everyone puckers right the heck up as soon as Vennant becomes animated and wipes down the bar. You were all sleepy AFK five seconds ago but NOW you're king-emote? What the heck?

Any non-establishment group is going to need a patron FROM some established group in order to get that kind of respect, and in the case of city elves, there's no reason why any established group would ever take the reputation hit to do it.

It's not like Kadius is going to say, "Oh, I know they're filthy neckers, but have you seen this fabulous bling they're making?" Or Salarr suddenly say that "those sharps make the best shivs."

This is a problem with the game lore and there's no clear way to solve it. Unless of course you want to start integrating eastside and westside into one more inclusive criminal organization. Sure, his ears are pointy, but have you seen that sharp work a lock?


Armaddict

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2017, 12:05:27 AM »
Quote
Unless of course you want to start integrating eastside and westside into one more inclusive criminal organization.

As I've said many times before, I'm not sure where the west became 'no elves allowed'.  I think it was a move made with the creation of a couple city-elf clans, or it was a move made by one or two guild leaders that 'stuck'.

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Softly, the emaciated, spider-tattooed elf says to the gigantic and obese figure in a dusty hooded, black sandcloth longcloak, in rinthi-accented sirihish:

     "Finish the woman."

That was a leader of the guild.

Even if it was made into a rarity rather than a rule, it would be better off than it is now unless we plan on giving greater support to eastside.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Gunnerblaster

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2017, 12:45:08 AM »
I'd personally like to play more c-elves but, yeah, I feel there's a lot of red tape that really limits (at least for me) how I would interact with much of the Known.
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Riev

  • Posts: 4553
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2017, 09:58:27 AM »
Quote
Unless of course you want to start integrating eastside and westside into one more inclusive criminal organization.

As I've said many times before, I'm not sure where the west became 'no elves allowed'.  I think it was a move made with the creation of a couple city-elf clans, or it was a move made by one or two guild leaders that 'stuck'.

Code: [Select]
Softly, the emaciated, spider-tattooed elf says to the gigantic and obese figure in a dusty hooded, black sandcloth longcloak, in rinthi-accented sirihish:

     "Finish the woman."

That was a leader of the guild.

Even if it was made into a rarity rather than a rule, it would be better off than it is now unless we plan on giving greater support to eastside.

While I don't know, myself, I would assume this was a change that gave being in the 'rinth a bit more of a built-in conflict. Its not SPECIFICALLY east-side vs west-side, its just that nobody trusts an elf, and elves distrust humans. The Guild has always been more 'organized' but doesn't have the numbers of East Side. The reason East Side has never grown to prominence is that there is always in-fighting, even with the Jaxa and the Sandas. Eventually, an elf strikes out on their own, takes a few with them, and get snuffed out.

I still think it can work, but when people think Labyrinth, they seem to think 'spice and illegal goods'. If there were more coded (or assisted) opportunities to ambush Salarri supply wagons, or any such things that aren't specifically "this is what the Guild does" there might be more. But then, the Guild might just come in, take over the racket, and kill the elves to tie up loose ends.

In Tuluk, the Templarate actually gave the Akai S'jirr their blessing, as it were. Are there NO tasks in the city that a bunch of artistic or athletic elves could do for the Templarate that wouldn't give them access to State Secrets? No way they could be a stone-worker guild, or painters, or a tribe of sneakies that reports to the Templarate for favors, food, and fancy clothes?
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Patuk

  • Posts: 4139
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2017, 06:09:00 PM »
No, that's just about what the Akai Sijir did.. And then they were closed, 'for being too much like a merchant house', which always sort've amused me. There are two nasty organisations in the Known: elven tribes and merchant houses. One will do everything it can to relieve you of your wealth and come out on top; the other is comprised of pointy-eared folk.
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FantasyWriter

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2017, 07:31:55 PM »
I wish that would fit into a quote.
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

tapas

  • Posts: 128
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2017, 12:43:31 AM »
Personally, I think the entire race needs to be rethought and/or retconned with playability in mind.

The elf documentation is a contradictory mess and their general place in the IC world seems to match.

ghanima

  • Posts: 43
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2017, 02:48:42 AM »
What about them is contradictory?

Cind

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2017, 06:33:12 AM »
A penchant for wandering combined with the lack of ranger guild and riding as important cultural points? When you're a newbie, its kind of wtf. They used to not allow you to start anywhere but the cities if you were an elf as well.
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ghanima

  • Posts: 43
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2017, 08:22:01 AM »
A penchant for wandering combined with the lack of ranger guild and riding as important cultural points? When you're a newbie, its kind of wtf. They used to not allow you to start anywhere but the cities if you were an elf as well.

Yeah, I would say that's just expressed poorly in the docs rather than that the docs are just plain contradictory. The penchant for wandering applies more to desert elves who ideally are nomadic (never mind the fact that they have coded encampments that tend to stay put, you can chalk that one up to playability). However the docs do indicate that the wandering aspect of their culture also exists in city elves in the sense that they're constantly on the move within the city. They'd probably never want to lurk in one place for too long for that reason, instead staying in one alley corner for one month and shifting to another alley corner a month later.

I agree if I were a newbie reading that I would definitely be raising some eyebrows. But it doesn't mean you have to be a ranger or ride an animal, let alone ever step foot outside the city.

Armaddict

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2017, 12:28:49 PM »
Moreso because when players think of 'wandering', they assume that it alludes to crossing the entire known.

However, that's...a pretty small thing, hardly worthy of a 'The entire race needs to be retconned/rewritten because contradiction' response.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1136
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2017, 12:54:05 PM »
Truth be said. I wouldnt mind celves to be wonderers.  Keep the inability to ride. Let them hoof it. But allow and maybe even encourage their desire to roam across the 'entire' known.

Why do gypsies get away with being thieves and scam artists? Because they're in one town one day, gone the next. Now with Celves, if they're stuck in the city, their main prerogative for the survival of their entire tribe is to get entrenched and respected by the city society. Clearly ... that goes against theme. For even if a Celf tribe 'managed' to achieve the respect and admiration of the entire playerbase (happened before and will again), it will feel so jarring from a virtual point of view.

FantasyWriter

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2017, 01:04:33 PM »
Moreso because when players think of 'wandering', they assume that it alludes to crossing the entire known.

However, that's...a pretty small thing, hardly worthy of a 'The entire race needs to be retconned/rewritten because contradiction' response.

Wandering the entire known is the Jul Tavan docs, not the elf ones.
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Grebber - One who grebs.

ghanima

  • Posts: 43
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2017, 01:43:44 PM »
Truth be said. I wouldnt mind celves to be wonderers.  Keep the inability to ride. Let them hoof it. But allow and maybe even encourage their desire to roam across the 'entire' known.

If you want to wander the Known, play a desert elf. It's really that simple. City elves are street vermin. That's all they know. Their ancestors who originated from the sands may be rolling in their graves knowing that their descendants are eking out a living in some alleyway but the idea of wandering the Known, to a city elf, would be abhorrent, much as it would to many citizens of Nak or Tuluk. That's just their concept, it's who they are. There's no need to amplify the current city elf skill tree because that's not what they're designed for. There's already a great solution if you want to travel as an elf: play a desert elf.
 

Miradus

  • Posts: 1669
Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2017, 02:37:20 PM »

If you want to wander the known, play a human. :)

Desert elves are pretty locked down.

Molten Heart

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2017, 02:53:09 PM »
Travel the Known World.
Get paid.
Die for some rich person in some conflict you don't even understand.
T'zai Byn Mercenary Company!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 02:55:28 PM by Molten Heart »