Author Topic: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves  (Read 5519 times)

Cind

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Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« on: June 08, 2017, 05:36:02 PM »
Some suggestions stewing in my brain; more and better ones are welcome.


* reinstating the Jaxa Pah

* adding 1-2 non-rinthi city elf tribes that can be joined at chargen (perhaps one that travels consistently and one that does not; or some other contrary combination)

* allowing elves to attain or retroactively have the background necessary for rangers

* adding more elf-friendly content in general-- a lot of the newest content is for humans or powerful humans (because that's what most people are playing)

* elf-run taverns/shops, more elven npcs to represent the game, perhaps with discounts for elves (the code exists already)

*back alley elf shopkeepers whose default language is set to elvish--- who provide culturally relevant goods such as a small amount of poison ingredients, pre-poisoned daggers, etc.

* cultures change over time--- allowing elves to gradually lose their stigma against riding mounts (they once were allowed to ride mounts, so they're not going to explode if they get on, not physically anyway)

* a shop that only serves elves which sells the ingredients to make low-end booze (there is a name for commoner-made bad booze with a helpfile attached to it, don't remember the name); just a shop like this in general would also add to the game
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sleepyhead

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2017, 05:50:59 PM »
Or--dare I dig up the old chestnut?--city run!

Miradus

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2017, 05:59:32 PM »

Right now when I see a city elf I think, "God, there goes a player who is in it for the difficulty level."

So I may sneer and spit and do all the things roundears do to city elves, but it's a hat tip to them really. An acknowledgement that they're playing the underdog in a game that eats the underdog alive and I respect that.

All of your suggestions want to make it easier to be a city elf, in which case the glory of being one disappears. I disapprove.


Dresan

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 07:47:40 PM »
I do think about roling one now and then, but it is a hard choice. 

You give up sooo much potential for meaningful interaction in exchange for what sometimes only amounts to interesting fountain RP. You can do everything an elf can as a human but in addition they can travel to new locations, change to almost any job, reinvent themselves and move up in the world. 

Even those cool interesting sucessful elves I have seen, only make me wonder what that player could have accomplished playing a human. There isn't enough content open to elves, and any perks they might get pale in comparison to just about any other race. I really think they need to be brought in line with half-elves and dwarves in terms of ability and content availability.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 07:49:38 PM by Dresan »
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Patuk

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2017, 08:19:05 PM »
Getting More People to Play (City) Elves

Getting more people to play what now elves?
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RogueGunslinger

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2017, 09:32:27 PM »
Im very jaded on this topic. Celves could be awesome. They wont be though. Theyve been put on the backburner for years. Every once in a while a staffer makes the mistake of saying theyre working on a celf tribe. I say scrap the idea entirely. Only desert elves. The idea of humans putting up with elves has never made sense.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 09:34:38 PM by RogueGunslinger »

Dar

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2017, 11:14:51 PM »
And yet every time there was a group of 4 tightly knit elves working together, they owned the entirety of the criminal world.


Until the first major PvP battle of course.

Miradus

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2017, 08:18:42 AM »
And yet every time there was a group of 4 tightly knit elves working together, they owned the entirety of the criminal world.


Until the first major PvP battle of course.

I've noticed that any time there's 4 tightly knit of anything working together then it's a happening place that everyone wants to be.

Delirium

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2017, 09:25:32 AM »
And yet every time there was a group of 4 tightly knit elves working together, they owned the entirety of the criminal world.


Until the first major PvP battle of course.

I've noticed that any time there's 4 tightly knit of anything working together then it's a happening place that everyone wants to be.

Yeah, synergy between awesome PCs goes beyond race choice and (somewhat beyond) location.
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Miradus

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2017, 09:34:37 AM »

If we want the world to thrive and stories to unfold, those players should be found, identified, tagged, and then released back to the wild with the attention and resources needed to go do awesome things.

I don't mean just plop them into canned sponsored roles. I mean find out what they're trying to accomplish and give them the (possibly vNPC) resources needed to succeed or fail.

I think sometimes we look at plots and say, "this one will fail" and decide not to pursue it. When the reality is, the most fun I've had is with plots I KNEW would ultimately blow up in my face. Success in a plot is fun. Failure can be fun. Just flat out having your plot attempts ignored by players and staff alike is not fun. I realize staff can't be everywhere and that some IC plots are going to interfere with the plots of other players (that intersection is where the FUN happens) but I do think a more concentrated effort needs to be made to find out what's happening in the non-sponsored, non-clanned social arena and see if there's anything there that could be spun out into big fun.






lairos

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2017, 09:53:35 AM »
I like the idea of making elves more involved for their RP, but not more accepted which hasn't been brought up of course. I don't like the thought of making elves have an easy time myself because it is not meant to be. They are not accepted in most all of society.

I think reopening the Jaxa Pah could be a good play, but other "clans" could be made by players IC if they wanted to pursue it. I would like to see a tribe of city elves start something up together. I think if players were to currently put in the effort that staff may look at the shops and a tavern as a possibility.

I don't believe a City Elf should have the ability to be a ranger. It may be a personal opinion, but I believe a ranger is geared more towards the wilderness which is more the Desert Elf terrain.

Also, I don't think that elves should and would ever accept riding a mount. This has been so hardwired into their brains from the moment they are born that any thought or suggestion to ride a beast is shunned by elves as a whole. Should it ever be the case, which I hope never is, I assume they would see a shift in their very core as they no longer would have the speed or stamina as they have now because they would not be running or using it and start relying on a beast.
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Miradus

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2017, 10:03:03 AM »

There was already a huge effort undertaken which helped the city elves (and all the other ne'er-do-wells). That's the southside roof system. There's food and water up there (at cheap prices) and routes that pretty much cover from the Gaj all the way to the Templar's quarter. There's at least three save rooms that I know of and probably 5 quit rooms.

If the same effort was taken to extend them across the rest of the city and into the rinth, and then the rinth rooftop system was corrected as to become actually Euclidean, you'd have this entire "shadow city" overlaid on top of Allanak proper. The only time you'd ever see some of these skeevy elves is when you find them unconscious in the street where they failed their Parkour check from a rooftop 4 rooms up.

Armaddict

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2017, 01:00:08 PM »
tl;dr -  Elves are in a very bad spot right now due to staff support constantly leaning away from them, combined with a few very strong misconceptions of the playerbase on how to play a decent elf.  Ideas are great, opening up clans would be great, but also keep in mind that with how elves have been the last few years, there's some instances where very non-elven behavior has become prominent, either in practice, or in proposed fixes, code wise, to make them more appealing.  Elves always have, and always will be, more about cunning than prowess.


I already play mostly city-elves, and have for a very long time.

Mostly I think there's a problem of them being in the game but having had all of their in game roles systematically removed and moved elsewhere, largely because of this idea of consolidation that's going on and obvious neglect (i.e. A shop that at one point sold/dealt with all elves now moved to only deal with a single clan that no longer exists, and it's been left in that state for years, OR, the shop that used to cut better deals to elves to emphasize black market trading/fencing, then did it for only a single clan, and now does it for no one).

In discourse with a staff member, I've been told that the problem with elven tribes/groups is their strong loyalty giving them advantages over other groups; I've tried to compromise on that bit, even though I find it a little silly.  That -is- the trademark of elves, is that even 'the lonefoot' has specific ties that are growing into loyalty ones.  That's by design, and it's their legitimate strength and desirable trait.  My compromise has always been a differentiation between elven gangs versus elven families.  Elven families will without fail be entirely loyal; if you mess with any part of that family, you have a straight vendetta on you that you can't buy your way out of.  It will result in submission to stipulations or death.  This is why eastside, in terms of the role it plays, -is- stronger than the westside.  Don't contest that.  It's true.  The difference is that the eastside is rarely united by threat.  By design, you don't want to give incentive to unifying multiple tribes of elves against you.  This is, currently, very hard to realize in game because of the lack of support given in such.

The elven gang, on the other hand, is not a family.  Gangs are much looser, much less loyal to each other, and are based around mutual gains and enterprises and working together to create favorable conditions for favors to be granted and owed, and this is the realm that elves work in and thrive in.  A large part of the problem lies in player mentality where people want to play an elf exactly the same as some other race, but with a couple tweaks, but elves go entirely different.  Theft as feats of courage grants insight into their mentality far further than just 'they steal a lot'.  Personal risks are something that is viewed as ballsy and something to be admired when they work out, and something they should have seen coming or stupid when they attempt it and don't pull it off.  That extends into their business dealings.  An elven gang should be avoiding risks save for calculated moves, which is why elves as a rule are more of a 'make them disappear' mentality over a 'Kill them in the streets and send a message' mentality.  The message is that people who go against them tend to disappear under mysterious circumstances, not that they look like badasses.

I agree that staff support is required.  But it's mostly to correct the sideways effects of other changes in the game, i.e. other groups taking over their traditional 'turf' as far as business.  I've spoken in discord about how elves, historically, were the importers of poisons into the city.  They ruthlessly stamped out other avenues so that their deals with their desert-elf relations (which were always kept strong) were the main method of import.  There are small changes like this over the past long time that apparently seemed like small shifts, but were actually very potent in degrading the 'place' that elves had in the city.

Coinciding with this has been the struggle for players to keep them relevant by themselves.  It's resulted in that loyalty issue becoming very downplayed and reduced to outright 'pledges' of loyalty into groups, which is...odd.  It's an avenue of play that I've not really experienced until the last couple years at most.  Prior, it was just an intrinsic trust that built over the long course of repeated dealings.  It took a long time, because as it grows, it results in increases in personal vulnerability.  That acknowledgement in being behind a closed door.  That acknowledgement that they have friends and you don't, and they want you to stand there alone in front of them.  Etc.  Etc.  Etc.  It's only as that vulnerability is ventured tentatively and met with trust that trust grows.  Again, it's a -long- process, which is part of why I can understand the lack of appeal to many players.

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And yet every time there was a group of 4 tightly knit elves working together, they owned the entirety of the criminal world.


Until the first major PvP battle of course.

In my experience, this is untrue.  There have, however, been instances where a group was doing well on all fronts until staff decided it was out of hand, where I point to one of the things I pointed out above: Just because you're strong as an elven group doesn't mean you get reckless or big in your boots.  Always maintain that 'in the shadows' approach.  Don't try to create wars, try to manipulate situations to get what the tribe/gang needs without it coming back to them.  Just like the Guild, no crime group is strong enough to wage all out war against the other factions of the game.  Stop trying.  That's suicidal.  Likewise, all out war between west and east sides of the labyrinth profits -no one-.  No one in their right mind wants to make that war.  It fucks over both sides on any of their true goals.

To be clear, when you create an elf, create an elf.  Don't just choose elf because you want to be villainous and -look- like a criminal.  Stop trying to play the in-character stereotype of an elf, and play a true character that other people will mold into the stereotype.  You should be playing smart.  You should be looking to invest favors and steal favors in a way that furthers your survival and resources available to be able to arrange favors for someone else (and thus have them owe you one).  Try to owe favors just as much as you earn them, so that there are entities that are interested in your survival.  Play the elven life the way many of you play the elven stereotype, but in a way that makes sense from a psychological standpoint.  You're careful.  You take calculated risks of daring when you think you can pull it off.  You know the rest of the city doesn't care much for you, so you're out to make them care.  Your 'shadiness' is actually shrewd negotiation and being aware of the status quo and the state of every relationship you have.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 01:07:40 PM by Armaddict »
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sleepyhead

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2017, 01:33:10 PM »
That was great, Armaddict. Have you ever considered making a full c-elf guide? I would really love something like that, personally.

Patuk

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2017, 02:29:08 PM »
Look. I tried.

It's been four years. Four years of threads like these, trying to make celven things happen, writing up docs bigger than that of some established trives, helping out staffers who said they were making a new tribe, of being made empty promises, of watching celven gangs get stemped out by animated NPCs because they dared do a thing.

Nothing that's been said in this thread is new. Nothing in this thread is going to be new. There is no lack of suggestions. No lack of material or ideas. The one thing that is necessary is implementation - and for reasons that are beyond me, it doesn't happen. Ever. But I guess the Atrium got reopened, so that's nice, yay.

It's in staff's hands, and I'm really not inclined to see it another way. Go fix it. I tried, others did, you have not.
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Armaddict

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2017, 03:07:21 PM »
Quote
Look. I tried.

You and me have had several disagreements on this despite being largely in the same camp.  We both agree that staff will have to put a foot forward in improving the elven plight.  Our main difference, in my interpretation, is that you're looking to personally empower elves more, where I'm fine with elves in their current state but think that the 'community' surrounding elves needs to be reinforced and actually emphasized as something in place in the game world.

They both provide incentive to play elves.  I'm just hoping that their place in the game is as a large group of elves that are more prone to and comfortable working with each other than with non-elves, creating a strong network of 'don't fuck with this, this is our business' rather than as a continuation of more powerful single elves more capable of leaving a large mark by themselves.  Everything about elves is set up as groups, and so the complete lack of groups and the lack of that enforced community is largely creating a 'what's the point?' perception surrounding them.

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Have you ever considered making a full c-elf guide?

I have, but it's largely dependent on a fairly consistent dialogue with staff to make sure that my perceptions on things can match up with their current goals and desires of what to put effort into.  That dialogue usually peters out, which makes it hard to insure I'm not submitting ideas that won't just be ignored.

That's not to say the communication is poor.  I think it's just a problem of motivation and interest in putting in effort.  That makes it sound bad, but realize that the elven community and its 'power' in the game requires a good deal of oversight and maintenance that will be taxing for anyone who isn't really personally invested in that pursuit.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 03:10:29 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Patuk

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2017, 03:41:50 PM »
Quote
Look. I tried.

You and me have had several disagreements on this despite being largely in the same camp.  We both agree that staff will have to put a foot forward in improving the elven plight.  Our main difference, in my interpretation, is that you're looking to personally empower elves more, where I'm fine with elves in their current state but think that the 'community' surrounding elves needs to be reinforced and actually emphasized as something in place in the game world.

They both provide incentive to play elves.  I'm just hoping that their place in the game is as a large group of elves that are more prone to and comfortable working with each other than with non-elves, creating a strong network of 'don't fuck with this, this is our business' rather than as a continuation of more powerful single elves more capable of leaving a large mark by themselves.  Everything about elves is set up as groups, and so the complete lack of groups and the lack of that enforced community is largely creating a 'what's the point?' perception surrounding them.

I'd be fine with even elves getting some documentation updates, sure.. Which, again, is entirely up to staff. Players don't change player attitude very often outside of extraordinary circumstances, and I'm done with trying for now.
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Synthesis

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2017, 04:16:47 PM »
Or--dare I dig up the old chestnut?--city run!

City-elves already have (or had, last time I played one, which admittedly was years ago) 2 bonuses when running in the city:

1) You are too fast for anything except another elf to shadow you without using magick.

2) You have a reduced stamina cost in every room.  In the majority of 'rinth rooms, this cost is zero, so you can run non-stop through the 'rinth.
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chrisdcoulombe

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2017, 06:04:18 PM »
Not every city elf has to be a rinth elf.  I agree with the problem being mostly no clan support though.   I do like to play c elves, but end up soloing most of the time as one and dying to something stupid early on like seven days played.
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Jihelu

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2017, 03:03:25 AM »
Am I the only one who doesn't like the "Engrained in their brains" mentality of "can't ride mounts" when they physically are not superior to their sand dune running asshole cousins? If they like running so much they should have stayed at a level of "We live in the city and hunt outside of it" that they should have kept their running ability.
And if they did grow out of it, they should have mentally adjusted.

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Molten Heart

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2017, 07:12:48 AM »
There's a lack of an elven community in the game. Because of the elves insular nature, there should be an elven community in every civilization hub in the game. A place where the various elven families came together to socialize, work their various trades/scams and do business. Elves are the second most populous race in the world and I know there have been recent additions to Allanak with elven areas but I'm not sure they are well known or easy to access. I think if there were more generic elven areas in the game, maybe an elven bar (or some other social hang out) that people knew about somewhere in the Allanak commoner quarter, there'd be more of an outlet for city elves.

I think it'd be nice if city elves had social organizations that they could interact with and be a part of on a regular basis, usually this would be a tribe. It'd help city elves if they easily accessible tribes that they could start out the game in. They wouldn't need any special clan compound or anything, it'd just be a loose affiliation.

Despite the stereotypes, which often go too far, I think, elves aren't all thieves and criminals. While it may be bandied about in game that all elves are thieves and can't be trusted, elves as a race would have been wiped out long ago if the virtual population was treated the way the PC population gets treated, they'd have all been thrown in the arena. I think it's important that there's racial tension, but I also think there needs to be a space for elves to exist. It can be a second rate ghetto, but there should be a separate and easily accessible place that players who can play elves know about where elves come together to play out the elven lifestyle.

Miradus

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2017, 09:18:48 AM »

MH, all of that already exists. You've got the entire eastside of the 'rinth which is populated by elves and there is a ton of vNPC evidence of elves banding together.
Southside you've got rooftop villages with quit rooms, tattoo parlor (you don't exist in game until you get your own tattooist), and food/water merchants. PLUS guards which enforce crimcode on said rooftop. You don't even need climb to get up there. The elves helpfully put in stairs for their roundear clients.

What lacks is the PC community to center themselves around one of these existing functions. I've seen it tried, but ... elves ...

They don't usually try to rally others to their cause and then when two of them get together and start succeeding, someone is there to put a boot on their neck.



Patuk

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Molten Heart

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2017, 09:44:34 AM »
There are things that could be done that encourage city elf tribal play by making it easier to play a tribal city elf, and making those elven areas more easily accessible to starting elves. And of course leader characters help too, but it's understandable why people don't like to play PC elves due to exaggerated racism resulting in high PC elf mortality rates.

I think if there were tribes city elves could enter the game as members of a coded tribe (even if there isn't any clan rooms or anything. They just need a coded organization they can claim loose association with. They don't need clan compounds, in fact it'd help the community if they didn't have them because they'd have to struggle more. In fact, the powers that be would probably not like elves having secure clan compounds so it'd be IC in that way too.  As far as I know, the rooftop areas are less known that they probably should be and difficult to access. There should probably be some better documentation on the elven areas of the game, as well as safer or easier access to them so elven characters (especially those starting out) aren't getting themselves killed when they decide to leave. If this means all city elves climb or making more safe avenues to access the rooftop areas, I think that'd do a lot.

Also elves seem to be easy scapegoats, it's common to hear about how a templar killed a PC elf, threw them in the arena. I wonder how many NPC elves get the same treatment. Killing the PC elves kills any home of an elven culture because if there are no PC elves, who's going to represent the elven culture in game? Sure it's there virtually but that causes many to overlook it (out of sight out of mind).

I think if elves didn't get as much lethal treatment by city authorities and there were generic coded city elf tribes players could enter the game as members of (tribes without reputations as ultra crime families), there would also be more incentive for players to play city elves.

[edited to add]

Maybe this is already the case, but city elf characters should enter the game in the elven neighborhood in Allanak. Hopefully, they don't fall off the roof and die.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 09:49:31 AM by Molten Heart »

FantasyWriter

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Re: Getting More People to Play (City) Elves
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2017, 01:25:19 PM »
Idea on clans (I actually love the JP, hate that they're not open for you people who like playing elves):
City elf family role with the goal of -starting- a player ran clan (this is how nearly all the clans came about and thankfully, unlike when I started playing, it is an option again.

I do think city running could be fiddled with a little.
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