Author Topic: How to fight/duel effectively?  (Read 4589 times)

RiftTalon

  • Posts: 24
How to fight/duel effectively?
« on: May 21, 2017, 07:24:40 PM »
At the moment, I just spam `kill` or `hit` when I get into a fight, with the occasional `bash` or some such. I have a feeling this isn't the right way to do it, s how should I be fighting?

Exen44

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2017, 07:27:57 PM »
If you're talking about sparring, then what you want to be doing is finding a spot where the crime code won't fuck you over then typing 'mercy on'. Then proceed with the 'kill' or any other skill commands. 'Hit' is just for brawling in specific establishes that allow such things. Something that a lot of people found out the hard way by doing the classic 'kill' to try and brawl then being cut down by soldiers.
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Exen44

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2017, 07:31:27 PM »
If on the other hand you're talking about fighting in general, then you should know that there's no way to kill someone 'harder'. After you engage combat, it's all down to statistics. Factors of skills, stats, offense/defense(?), all that stuff. Other commands like 'kick' and all that can also be used in mid-combat for well, exactly stuff like that.
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Riev

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2017, 08:45:53 PM »
If on the other hand you're talking about fighting in general, then you should know that there's no way to kill someone 'harder'. After you engage combat, it's all down to statistics. Factors of skills, stats, offense/defense(?), all that stuff. Other commands like 'kick' and all that can also be used in mid-combat for well, exactly stuff like that.

Attack speed, damage, and MOST general combat is all on a timer, and automatic. Once you type kill, all most people can do is hope they're better than the other person.

IF, however, you're more of a combative character and have things like Disarm, or Bash, you can use those to try and gain an advantage, but failing comes at a cost. (This is why many people suggest newer players to places like the Arm of the Dragon or the T'zai Byn, because they're combat-heavy clans that will teach you how things go).

ADDENDUM: Just because you can sit there in combat for 45seconds before your enemy flees/submits/dies, doesn't mean thats all you CAN do. When you feel comfortable, throw in some emotes. The game tells you how hard you hit, and where, but that doesn't mean there isn't action going on between the scenes. If you "solidly bludgeon" their foot, throw in an emote about how you brought your club down hard on <your opponent>'s foot. Get funky and freaky with the description of how you fight. Dirty? Professional? Aiming high? Slow and brutal? Awkward as fuck?

Just be ready to have either "flee" or "disengage" on the ready (mine is mapped to F1)
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1796
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2017, 09:11:07 PM »
I am and probably always will be a big advocate for joining the Byn to learn the game, I and many other fabulous players with plenty of game knowledge (thats the other players not me mostly) are there to OOCly understand what you are going through, and it is all but expected that your character will be a little whacky because thats just what Runners are.

Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2017, 08:39:01 AM »
Just to be clear, combat is initiated when you type '>kill target', or when someone/something attacks you.

Combat will go until you or the other person dies, gets knocked out (if the victor's mercy kill is turned on), all paties enters '>disengage,' or someone successfully flees.  You do not have to keep typing kill.

Like others have said, you should learn about strategy (bash, kick, and disarm) IC.
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RiftTalon

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 09:33:32 AM »
Alright, thanks for help.

Molten Heart

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 10:00:06 AM »
.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 10:06:56 AM by Molten Heart »

Synthesis

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2017, 11:54:20 AM »
...and if the skills are high they will give a small advantage by being used right away instead of having to wait through the 3-5 second delay of the kill command.

Not true.

What you're probably observing is people using the "assist" command, which has no pre- or post- delay, which means you can "assist x" and "kick y" immediately afterward.

It doesn't matter how high your skills are, if you type "kill x," you're going to get the standard "kill" post-delay.
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Molten Heart

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2017, 12:37:10 PM »
.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 10:06:05 AM by Molten Heart »

Riev

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2017, 12:52:25 PM »
Regardless, fighting "effectively" is just training up what skills you have on your "Skills" list. If you're really good with slashing weapons, when you're in that auto-combat mode, you'll hit more, and hit harder as your skills improve.

When you're IN combat, you do have access to the kicks, and bashes, and all that stuff. If you don't have the skill, don't expect many successes, and it always uses up stamina/endurance each time you use them. Also, do not type "kill <person>" and then just spam kick;kick;kick;kick;kick;kick  It is considered poor etiquette, doesn't give you "more skill because you failed six times", and with the lag that comes with each command, you could die and be unable to flee.
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Inks

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2017, 01:56:23 AM »
kick figure, kick 2.figure, kick 3.figure
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Feco

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2017, 08:21:06 AM »
Regardless, fighting "effectively" is just training up what skills you have on your "Skills" list. If you're really good with slashing weapons, when you're in that auto-combat mode, you'll hit more, and hit harder as your skills improve.

When you're IN combat, you do have access to the kicks, and bashes, and all that stuff. If you don't have the skill, don't expect many successes, and it always uses up stamina/endurance each time you use them. Also, do not type "kill <person>" and then just spam kick;kick;kick;kick;kick;kick  It is considered poor etiquette, doesn't give you "more skill because you failed six times", and with the lag that comes with each command, you could die and be unable to flee.

Just so it's clear to OP, there's no etiquette in actual combat.  This would apply to sparring.
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Riev

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2017, 09:23:51 AM »
Regardless, fighting "effectively" is just training up what skills you have on your "Skills" list. If you're really good with slashing weapons, when you're in that auto-combat mode, you'll hit more, and hit harder as your skills improve.

When you're IN combat, you do have access to the kicks, and bashes, and all that stuff. If you don't have the skill, don't expect many successes, and it always uses up stamina/endurance each time you use them. Also, do not type "kill <person>" and then just spam kick;kick;kick;kick;kick;kick  It is considered poor etiquette, doesn't give you "more skill because you failed six times", and with the lag that comes with each command, you could die and be unable to flee.

Just so it's clear to OP, there's no etiquette in actual combat.  This would apply to sparring.

Double-quoting so its clear, yes. This is for sparring with another person. If you're fighting for your life... MURDER THEM.
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Dreadlock

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2019, 07:06:26 AM »
Regardless, fighting "effectively" is just training up what skills you have on your "Skills" list. If you're really good with slashing weapons, when you're in that auto-combat mode, you'll hit more, and hit harder as your skills improve.

When you're IN combat, you do have access to the kicks, and bashes, and all that stuff. If you don't have the skill, don't expect many successes, and it always uses up stamina/endurance each time you use them. Also, do not type "kill <person>" and then just spam kick;kick;kick;kick;kick;kick  It is considered poor etiquette, doesn't give you "more skill because you failed six times", and with the lag that comes with each command, you could die and be unable to flee.

Just so it's clear to OP, there's no etiquette in actual combat.  This would apply to sparring.

Double-quoting so its clear, yes. This is for sparring with another person. If you're fighting for your life... MURDER THEM.

I would like to say thank you to this. I lost a couple characters trying to rp a real combat situation before and dying horribly. It is nice to know that just running my skinny half-elven ass away without emoting so I can survive will be understood.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1796
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2019, 02:51:06 AM »
While you CAN do that, I personally frown on it. It takes very little time to give your partner a quick 'em backs off, hightailing it.' it's just a couple words and does not take much time at all.

Riev

  • Posts: 5414
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2019, 10:46:49 AM »
While you CAN do that, I personally frown on it. It takes very little time to give your partner a quick 'em backs off, hightailing it.' it's just a couple words and does not take much time at all.

Fleeing IS roleplaying.

Disengaging IS roleplaying.

Emoting =/= roleplaying, it is just a method you can use TO roleplay.

If you die because you're typing out a really good emote, that's not roleplaying. Your PC would have run, not spent 3-4 more hits getting bloodied because he wanted to flourish some cool hit from 2 minutes ago.
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Cerelum

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2019, 12:12:13 PM »
While you CAN do that, I personally frown on it. It takes very little time to give your partner a quick 'em backs off, hightailing it.' it's just a couple words and does not take much time at all.

Fleeing IS roleplaying.

Disengaging IS roleplaying.

Emoting =/= roleplaying, it is just a method you can use TO roleplay.

If you die because you're typing out a really good emote, that's not roleplaying. Your PC would have run, not spent 3-4 more hits getting bloodied because he wanted to flourish some cool hit from 2 minutes ago.

I agree with this as Iíve been on both sides of getting killed by extremely fast combat code while trying to emote or otherwise not just type flee over and over.

With Armageddon being a Roleplay focused game I almost wish there was a slow down combat command for situation where youíre beating someone to death but want to give them time to Roleplay it out.

Because even with mercy on, you still keep fighting till they fall down and canít do much anyways.

Combat code is scary fast sometimes and when youíre getting reeled by sounding hits over and over, the Ding comes fast.
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Riev

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2019, 01:13:43 PM »
You're free to hold back by typing "disengage" (I macro disengage to F1) if you think you're winning too hard and want to give them time. I've had scenes where I stopped fighting, and we RP'd out the scene a bit more.

Fleeing is roleplaying. There is no reason to be emoting, instead of fleeing, if your character is trying to survive.
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Akariel

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2019, 10:58:40 AM »
Please do not put code before roleplay. Yes, you can spamwalk away from a situation, go right to the bar, and wait until hunting time the next morning - but that's zero fun for zero people. Play up these scenes. Enjoy the roleplay. Sure, you may die, but that's what makes roleplaying games like Armageddon fun - not living or dying, but the stories that it generates.

This doesn't just go for the victims either, the attackers should attempt to roleplay during altercations as well. If you're just running in and attacking the target you're missing out on the fun and excitement roleplaying can bring.

Cerelum

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2019, 01:22:39 PM »
Please do not put code before roleplay. Yes, you can spamwalk away from a situation, go right to the bar, and wait until hunting time the next morning - but that's zero fun for zero people. Play up these scenes. Enjoy the roleplay. Sure, you may die, but that's what makes roleplaying games like Armageddon fun - not living or dying, but the stories that it generates.

This doesn't just go for the victims either, the attackers should attempt to roleplay during altercations as well. If you're just running in and attacking the target you're missing out on the fun and excitement roleplaying can bring.

I agree, however Iím not sure that the folks who play as killers really care about your experience as they are killing you.

As a few people have said before this, combat code is Roleplay in their eyes.

I personally wish there were ways to slow down combat other than disengaging and hoping they donít cheese the situation.

Iíve had both run in and murder me in a few combat round deaths and slow death scenes and I prefer the Roleplay ones of course but I guess I could see why folks jump to instakill because those few moments of emoting might be leading a Templar or group of friends down on your head.
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Feco

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2019, 01:34:26 PM »
Please do not put code before roleplay. Yes, you can spamwalk away from a situation, go right to the bar, and wait until hunting time the next morning - but that's zero fun for zero people. Play up these scenes. Enjoy the roleplay. Sure, you may die, but that's what makes roleplaying games like Armageddon fun - not living or dying, but the stories that it generates.

This doesn't just go for the victims either, the attackers should attempt to roleplay during altercations as well. If you're just running in and attacking the target you're missing out on the fun and excitement roleplaying can bring.

I agree, however Iím not sure that the folks who play as killers really care about your experience as they are killing you.

Hey, I don't think that's entirely fair.  I've played killers and I very muched cared about other's experiences.

All I meant when I replied long ago was that sometimes combat can be really fast, and really bloody, and sometimes it's okay to not waste time typing a lengthy emote, if it endangers you seriously.
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Riev

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2019, 03:40:48 PM »
Please do not put code before roleplay. Yes, you can spamwalk away from a situation, go right to the bar, and wait until hunting time the next morning - but that's zero fun for zero people. Play up these scenes. Enjoy the roleplay. Sure, you may die, but that's what makes roleplaying games like Armageddon fun - not living or dying, but the stories that it generates.

This doesn't just go for the victims either, the attackers should attempt to roleplay during altercations as well. If you're just running in and attacking the target you're missing out on the fun and excitement roleplaying can bring.

I agree, however I’m not sure that the folks who play as killers really care about your experience as they are killing you.

Hey, I don't think that's entirely fair.  I've played killers and I very muched cared about other's experiences.

All I meant when I replied long ago was that sometimes combat can be really fast, and really bloody, and sometimes it's okay to not waste time typing a lengthy emote, if it endangers you seriously.

This. My quote that that flee is roleplay is a direct quote from staff.

I played the game for over 10 years, and I think I killed/participated in killing less than 5 people. Of my twinky friends, most have really made sure there was a buildup to killing, up to and including a failed attempt on a Noble, only to soon thereafter, succeed.

Code before roleplay is a thing, because you can't emote out a scene when you're dead. Flee, then work on the roleplay. Flee, then shout something that shows you're interested in the scene and not a 'shout Fuck off!'
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Namino

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2019, 03:59:35 PM »
The reason roleplay seems to evolve before a kill rather than during it is the unfortunate issues revolving around the current PvP 'meta' of Armageddon, in which serious fights are decided instantaneously or as close to instantaneously as possible. The only way you can roleplay DURING a kill is if the fighting is protracted enough for you all to emote rolling around on the ground wrestling for the knife and flinging swearwords at each other. Serious fights in Armageddon do not provide the means for this.

If your victim does not want to fight:
-Failing a flee does not incur a post-delay nor does it grant an attack of opportunity until you get your successful one. Spamming flee is free and will almost always get you out.
If your victim does want to fight:
-They're going to spam-flee into kite-archery, use heramide coated knives, or if you're super bad at picking your targets, hit you with a mon-level fireball for massive stun-damage as an opener.

None of these above scenarios provides time at all for roleplay.

Edit: Though I will say this. Feco's character was what I consider the only really good PvP experience I had because he was willing to sacrifice efficiency for the cause. That's a pretty high standard to expect your average murderer to set to as I later found out multiple times.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 04:01:43 PM by Namino »

Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2019, 04:23:40 PM »
Edit: Though I will say this. Feco's character was what I consider the only really good PvP experience I had because he was willing to sacrifice efficiency for the cause. That's a pretty high standard to expect your average murderer to set to as I later found out multiple times.

That's very kind and thoughtful, even if I have no idea what you're talking about!  :)

However, I will not deny having taken part in very fast, confusing combat, with little to no emoting.  It just so happens that the code can be really, really nasty sometimes.  Despite the lack of emotes, though, I maintain that those situations were not devoid of roleplay.

I've never felt bad about someone attacking immediately with code, or fleeing immediately with code, if the situation made sense.
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Veselka

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2019, 02:12:55 AM »
To me, the use of 'threaten' has allayed this a bit. Someone can rush in and threaten you, emoting or saying something. It puts a slight slow-mo to PvP scenes as I've seen them unfold, recently.

I don't think emoting = role-play, but at the same time, I don't think flee w;s;e;s;w;w;s is role-play either. These are extremes. Someone can be thinking or feeling, or reacting after the fact, or tossing out emotes as they are running, without having to submit their RP to the court of public opinion. Ultimately, I think, Staff would decide if someone is blatantly disregarding RP for the sake of their PC's longevity, just as they would decide if someone is just a Griefer and not putting in any particular thought/direction to PKing people.
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X-D

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2019, 04:09:57 AM »
I have had plenty of times my PC was attacked without emote with one of the enter room bash/charge whatever methods. I tend to just be flattered that they were that afraid of him. Still roleplay though.

As to adding in the extra icing, it all depends on how much of an upper hand you have.

The more you have the less risk to it. Now, if I am taking my single PC verses multiple PCs...guess how many emotes your getting? A Big fat zero till near the end. And I will not feel in the least bit bad about it.

On the other side, if my uber 50day combat PC backed by his 3 uber combat PC buddies comes on yours alone...I will work to give the best most flowing and intense scene with emotes, thinks and shit as possible...course, if when I enter the room you just go, flee self;s;s;s;e;s;e;s;e...then when next we meet it will be all code, but I will have mercy on and try and give you a good death emote anyway. :)
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Feco

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2019, 08:06:10 AM »
Absolutely true about threaten, and chase!  They're wonderful additions!
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Harmless

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2019, 09:25:37 AM »
the amount of emote or say or shout you can type within the space of a delay of a command or a reel or whatever is definitely roleplay.

if someone is silent while being killed..they are silent.

But if they say,

'Please... don't..'

Well. Gets your heart wrenching just a little bit, doesn't it?
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Riev

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2019, 10:21:04 AM »
As I stated earlier in the thread, I've had instances during fights where halfway through I outright disengaged, and emoted backing off about a cord, still ready to fight but backing off.

The other person did so as well, and after a standoff, more roleplay happened.

I've had instances where all the RP was in semotes and all I got was a mantis head because I was in a store (wrong place, wrong time).

If it makes sense for my character to run, I'm going to flee. My character would run away. I may try to put thinks, and if I think I got away, emote ducking behind a large sand dune, but my character would run and they would run fast. The issue with running is when someone spam-runs into a compound/clan gates knowing you can't come inside, despite having just been stabbed and dealt like 80% of their life in under a second.
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Sokotra

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2019, 10:36:31 AM »
I have had plenty of times my PC was attacked without emote with one of the enter room bash/charge whatever methods. I tend to just be flattered that they were that afraid of him. Still roleplay though.

As to adding in the extra icing, it all depends on how much of an upper hand you have.

The more you have the less risk to it. Now, if I am taking my single PC verses multiple PCs...guess how many emotes your getting? A Big fat zero till near the end. And I will not feel in the least bit bad about it.

On the other side, if my uber 50day combat PC backed by his 3 uber combat PC buddies comes on yours alone...I will work to give the best most flowing and intense scene with emotes, thinks and shit as possible...course, if when I enter the room you just go, flee self;s;s;s;e;s;e;s;e...then when next we meet it will be all code, but I will have mercy on and try and give you a good death emote anyway. :)

Maybe they ran because they expected the larger group to kill them immediately.  It's kind of a vicious cycle.

Also, having played plenty of loner/scoundrel type characters in the past, it's frustrating and makes you hesitant when you've tried to realistically roleplay to reasonably escape certain situations only to have your roleplay ignored and be forced to completely submit yourself to how they want the situation to play out.

I just try to find some realistic middle ground between coded and uncoded roleplay, but can be difficult when you know the other party has the all round advantage and is bent on ignoring your roleplay for the most part. 

I guess try to give each other the benefit of the doubt, because neither side really has complete context of what the other is all about.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 11:56:21 AM by Sokotra »

Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2019, 11:12:59 AM »
I don't think there's much disagreement here (if there's any at all).

I think we're all roughly on the same page, no?
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Riev

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2019, 12:41:17 PM »
Also, having played plenty of loner/scoundrel type characters in the past, it's frustrating and makes you hesitant when you've tried to realistically roleplay to reasonably escape certain situations only to have your roleplay ignored and be forced to completely submit yourself to how they want the situation to play out.

I have had PCs die because I ooc/gone that I'm afk for a moment, only to come back to a situation where I'm codedly subdued and placed into a situation where I can't escape. Even though in that situation, I was on the other side of the room, being wary, etc etc. That PC died because I tried to flee and I hadn't scrolled up to see that they said "If you try to run we'll kill you" because they had emoted a full screen of stuff while I was AFK.
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Hauwke

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2019, 05:23:43 PM »
That is on them at that point. If you made them aware you were not capable of responding for a moment, they should have at the very least waited until you were back.

On the other hand, I always scroll back and try to read any RP that happened before I so much as touch the enter key to remove the gone flag.

X-D

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2019, 07:56:29 PM »
Mostly all on the same page.

Now to another point, I really do wish that AFK command was a flag not just staff can see. Put it in assess......Does not have to have the reason.

Assess dude
Dude is tall
Dude is healthy
Dude is AFK
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Veselka

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2019, 08:13:52 PM »
Agreed.
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Bushranger

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2019, 01:21:28 AM »
I agree as I've been PKilled a few times I've been AFK, usually when my internet has been cut off thanks to a power outage or a line has been cut, and that's really irritating when you don't even know how or why you were killed.

Having the AFK flag show when you use the Gone command or have been idle for a time would be very useful.
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ShaiHulud

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Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2019, 04:58:50 AM »
I've yet to be killed by another because I was afk. Many other reasons though, and I've been playing a long time. That said, I think an assess flag that you are afk would be good.
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Jihelu

  • Posts: 2791
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2019, 08:57:44 AM »
As Cabooze can contest, there are people in this game who will kill your ass while afk, especially if you are AFK.

Are these a minority? I've never been pk'd while afk so IDK.

Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2019, 09:28:45 AM »
I've never been PK'd while AFK.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5414
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2019, 10:39:40 AM »
I have not been KILLED while AFK, just put into situations while unable to respond.

That's why, in the spirit of the thread, fleeing is roleplaying. If SETTING UP the scene is going to get you killed, but your PC wouldn't realistically be standing there taking a beating... run. Nobody WANTS to lose their time invested in a PC, and no killer wants their face/desc to be seen because as soon as there is a 'bad guy' in game, everyone 'tok-piles on them just for interaction.
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Sokotra

  • Posts: 1731
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2019, 11:23:11 AM »
as soon as there is a 'bad guy' in game, everyone 'tok-piles on them just for interaction.

QFT

th3kaiser

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  • Posts: 440
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2019, 03:24:18 PM »
I've been killed at least twice while AFK/Disconnected. Once I was killed as a half giant when I got disconnected along the north road. I did see that Soh beforehand. I imagine they simply didn't care and had arrows to waste on a big non-moving target. So yes, I'm down with a flag.

Feco

  • Posts: 1977
Re: How to fight/duel effectively?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2019, 08:09:11 PM »
I hate to be that guy but this seems to have devolved well beyond the original topic, and well beyond what's good for the new player section.
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