Author Topic: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek  (Read 6790 times)

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6452
    • Anathema Web Serial
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2017, 07:02:47 PM »
Question. When the revamp is done, can players request to have their 'old' main class upgraded to a new one with related skills? Sacrifice some skills, maybe, to gain a handful of new ones?

Nergal

  • Producer
  • Posts: 757
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2017, 07:16:38 PM »
Not really sure about that yet. The current plan is to have PCs keep their old class, but I'm not against letting PCs upgrade to a new class, likely based on certain conditions to avoid headaches and lost skills.
  

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6452
    • Anathema Web Serial
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2017, 07:20:44 PM »
Alrighty, thanks!

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. More variety in mundane skillsets can only be a good thing.

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 18786
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2017, 11:50:12 PM »
Can we expect new skills or classes that arent currently possible?

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 446
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2017, 01:06:05 AM »
Can we expect new skills or classes that arent currently possible?

I also am curious about this.
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9443
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2017, 02:48:24 AM »
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02

I can say that the current draft of the skill trees for the new classes puts all skills at a skill level you'd find usable, at the least.

Stealth and stealth detection skills pretty much have to be at master to be useful.

I think my first PC when the advanced subguilds came out was a city-elf warrior/rogue...and even with city-elf agility, having hide and sneak only at advanced was a total waste.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7510
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2017, 06:45:39 AM »
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02

I can say that the current draft of the skill trees for the new classes puts all skills at a skill level you'd find usable, at the least.

Stealth and stealth detection skills pretty much have to be at master to be useful.

I think my first PC when the advanced subguilds came out was a city-elf warrior/rogue...and even with city-elf agility, having hide and sneak only at advanced was a total waste.

My experience on both sides of the issue say otherwise.

Stealth and stealth detection skills ONLY have to be at master to be useful, if the ONLY thing you want out of them is to hide from or detect characters with masterful skills.

If I have advanced stealth, I should have no problem hiding from anyone with detection skills at journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of slipping past someone with master detection in the right conditions. And if I have advanced detection, I should succeed most of the time when I'm actively seeking people whose stealthy skills are journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of catching someone with master stealth in the right conditions.

As someone whose played many rangers, some of whom mastered stealth, some who never bothered with it, all of whom mastered detections, I don't think mastery is significantly more useful than advanced, or even journeyman, given the variety of coded atmospheres already existing in the game, and given the variety of "levels of skill" you'll find in the collection of PCs on any given day.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Pretentious

  • Posts: 75
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2017, 08:06:41 AM »

Stealth and stealth detection skills ONLY have to be at master to be useful, if the ONLY thing you want out of them is to hide from or detect characters with masterful skills.

If I have advanced stealth, I should have no problem hiding from anyone with detection skills at journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of slipping past someone with master detection in the right conditions. And if I have advanced detection, I should succeed most of the time when I'm actively seeking people whose stealthy skills are journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of catching someone with master stealth in the right conditions.

As someone whose played many rangers, some of whom mastered stealth, some who never bothered with it, all of whom mastered detections, I don't think mastery is significantly more useful than advanced, or even journeyman, given the variety of coded atmospheres already existing in the game, and given the variety of "levels of skill" you'll find in the collection of PCs on any given day.

Some master stealth PCs are beyond the reasonable range of detection from master detection skills, first off. Depending on some factors, anyways, that I won't go into. But it's -not- just about the PvP aspect of the game being 'balanced'. For a ranger in the wild, there are critters out there that are just at the edge of max scan, or just straight up beyond it. Thinking that nerfs to detection are okay so long as they're accompanied by nerfs to stealth misses out on a -huge- part of the game for most rangers. And any other guild that wants to experience the wastes.

Nergal

  • Producer
  • Posts: 757
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2017, 08:43:52 AM »
Can we expect new skills or classes that arent currently possible?

I also am curious about this.

No new skills are planned at this time. Not sure what you mean by classes that aren't currently possible, if you can expound on that a bit.

Regarding useful skills: the whole point of the beta test is to see if the classes, as currently drafted, work. If they don't work we will add/remove skills and raise starting values/maximums as necessary until they do.
  

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9443
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2017, 12:13:53 PM »
(journeyman skillcaps make the skill barely worth having)

.02

I can say that the current draft of the skill trees for the new classes puts all skills at a skill level you'd find usable, at the least.

Stealth and stealth detection skills pretty much have to be at master to be useful.

I think my first PC when the advanced subguilds came out was a city-elf warrior/rogue...and even with city-elf agility, having hide and sneak only at advanced was a total waste.

My experience on both sides of the issue say otherwise.

Stealth and stealth detection skills ONLY have to be at master to be useful, if the ONLY thing you want out of them is to hide from or detect characters with masterful skills.

If I have advanced stealth, I should have no problem hiding from anyone with detection skills at journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of slipping past someone with master detection in the right conditions. And if I have advanced detection, I should succeed most of the time when I'm actively seeking people whose stealthy skills are journeyman or below. And still have at least a fair chance of catching someone with master stealth in the right conditions.

As someone whose played many rangers, some of whom mastered stealth, some who never bothered with it, all of whom mastered detections, I don't think mastery is significantly more useful than advanced, or even journeyman, given the variety of coded atmospheres already existing in the game, and given the variety of "levels of skill" you'll find in the collection of PCs on any given day.

Rangers have low-master skill caps for stealth, so they aren't a good metric.

What I mean by "a waste" isnt "scan could spot me," it's "I routinely abjectly failed the skill checks such that I wasn't hidden at all."  Even after a successful hide, shadowing only worked for a couple of rooms,  which made engaging in shenanigans Southside extremely dicey.

I basically had to make a friend who could tell me if I was hidden or not, and spam the hide command until it worked. Runs of 4-5 failures were not uncommon.  Virtually every time I attempted to sneak up on or hide from a PC, they just looked at me and were like..."what up?"  The only thing this was useful for was convincing people that my semi-decent warrior/rogue was actually only a totally noob burglar, which was a very meta way to go about the business of being a rogue, but I suppose it was elf-ish, in that very metagamey way.

So, basically, what I mean by "useful" is that stealth skills at their max need a near-100% effectiveness against PCs and NPCs that aren't scanning or listening.  Setting the subguild caps at ranger levels would probably be okay.  But where they're at now is pointless, unless your primary guild is ranger or assassin, which allows you to roll with your primary guild's cap.

I only tried it once, and was so thoroughly dissatisfied that I've never bothered picking one of the extended subguild stealth guilds again, except as a ranger subclass.  If someone has run a successful non d-elf warrior rogue/cutpurse/slipknife and had a different experience, feel free to chime in, I guess.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 12:32:21 PM by Synthesis »
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1159
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2017, 11:24:03 PM »
So in exchange for more focused skill sets, we will be getting higher starting values for those skills. Well does sounds like an interesting change and I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

I also agree with synthesis points above. Unfortunately not all skills are created equal. Some skills may not always useful or bring as much RP/interaction opportunities as other skills.

Sneak/hide:
  • Thief sub-guild feels gimped due to fail rate of sneak/hide at its current skill cap.
  • Thus Sneak/Hide should stop failing at Journeyman all together, and instead just be countered by equal or greater levels of scan.
  • This would further benefit a class system where perception skills come at a cost of other useful skills

backstab/sap
The new class system will either make this really good pick or really terrible class to pick.
  • If it is really good, it will be a horrible experience for the victims.
  • If it is really terrible, it will be a horrible experience for the player.

One idea I liked was to revamp the skill to:
  • Do damage but nowhere near OHK anymore, giving the victim a chance to RP/enjoy slower death/escape
  • Backstabbing from hiding position would hide mdesc until you leave the room allowing assassin to rp/enjoy life after failed assasinations.
  • Higher backstab skill levels would decrease skill lag, incease damage (moderately), prevent fleeing (vs victim flee skill) 

There are a couple other skills (ex. steal) where low level versions are almost not worth using. I feel the new class system will outline the shortcomings of certain skills more acutely regardless of whether they are in the class itself or in the sub-guilds.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 12:02:59 AM by Dresan »
This message was brought to you by a fair weather player.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7510
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2017, 09:17:42 AM »
  • Do damage but nowhere near OHK anymore, giving the victim a chance to RP/enjoy slower death/escape

This one thing is my only concern Dresan. Who do you want the damage to stop being anywhere near an OHK? Different races have different brute strengths and natural offensive skill, and both of those are a part of the formula for combat success.

If you make it so that a half-giant's backstab is "nowhere near OHK" anymore, then that will also mean that a city elf might as well never select anything with the backstab skill at all. They're not likely to ever make even a dent in their victim.

If you make it so that a human's backstab is nowhere near OHK anymore, then a half-giant's and dwarf's ability to OHK won't be touched and that'll just attract people who *want* to use backstab to OHK, to play more half-giants or dwarves.

In addition, the whole point of the stealth/backstab combo is to NOT give your victim a shot at escaping. Sometimes, a bitch just gotta die, period. In this particular game's setting, I don't think that's a bad thing, and I don't feel that it needs to be tweaked.

My opinion is not based on my roleplay. I generally avoid PKing, and to my recollection I've never been OHK'ed. I've been knocked out with a SAP before a few times, but that still allows for me to see emotes and echoes, and emote back with the scene.

[/list]
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Riev

  • Posts: 4827
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2017, 10:15:34 AM »
I also disagree on the no-OHK damage on backstab anymore. I've BEEN OHK'd on a PC, and it sucks. I can't explain to you what it feels like to be in the swing of your character, only to have a 0-prompt mantis head with no forewarning.

However. The thing that got me over it? I pulled strings with EVERY. PERSON. I KNEW. To find out what happened, and why. When I finally learned that I was killed because my brand new boss wasn't playing nice with the local thugs, I was to be made an example of. I wasn't the first, and I wasn't the last.

However from my perspective? I joined a clan, got sent to a shop, and died without a single prompt. Had I not pulled strings, I wouldn't have known what happened, and would have had no closure.

OHKs are fine, and in some cases necessary (fleeing is roleplaying, and is OP OP since being at 10% HP you're just as capable as at 100%). What I'd like to see is some sort of debrief afterwards, if requested.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 18786
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2017, 01:17:14 PM »
Thats a really good idea.

Nergal

  • Producer
  • Posts: 757
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2017, 01:39:15 PM »
If you're not sure how you died, definitely put in a request. We can explain things to an extent, especially in one-hit-kill and link-dead cases, and in the former case we can make sure the code echoes something clearly to the player.
  

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2581
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2017, 02:48:54 PM »
Though it isn't directly the topic, it kind of matters as it will be added to some of the classes and what not and was mentioned earlier, I feel like stealth should be buffed up a bit.

I find my self in a strange opinion of it, though.
I don't think people should be undetectable gods because I didn't bother to twink watch. But I don't think people should have master stealth + hide and still fuck up or be unable to shadow someone.
At master sneak/hide (I forget if hide got to master or just high advanced) I couldn't hide or sneak in certain rooms I felt like I should have been able to. Or maybe I just would always fail. Maybe some rooms have disadvantages to stealth (If what I assume is right some rooms are downright impossible to sneak in).

Which makes things kinda shitty when the main appeal of your class is sneaky sneak and you get spotted and get murder murdered.

That being said, there were situations where sneak/hide were super fucking useful.
Maybe it's just inconsistent or luck based, idek.

I dislike the idea of "Look at all these fucking classes" but at the same time I'm optimistic and I'll probably see what they look like before continuing to not play or returning to see if it's loads of fun. I'm hoping it provides more utility, not less.

Also as someone said earlier in the thread, Jman is terrible. (Except parry, love me jman parry)
Shade, profits, and George Bush did 9/11

Riev

  • Posts: 4827
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2017, 02:52:18 PM »
I still like the idea of 3 classes to choose from, from definably different skillsets. Like EQ2 where you started a "scout" but could become a bursty assassin, or a middle-ground bruiser, etc etc etc.

Like, you're still (hopefully) tied into what your focus is (indoor, outdoor, mercantile, etc) but how you go about it is vastly different but still sustainable.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2581
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2017, 02:59:53 PM »
Let me rephrase everything I just said.


If I can get outdoor quit on a warrior I will sell my soul to this game.
Shade, profits, and George Bush did 9/11

hopeandsorrow

  • Posts: 326
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2017, 11:21:35 AM »
Let me rephrase everything I just said.


If I can get outdoor quit on a warrior I will sell my soul to this game.

I was sort of curious who got outdoor quit and who didn't.

Everyone in the Wilderness  column?
Or is it only light combat/Wilderness?

I'm secretly hoping that Heavy Combat/Wilderness turns out to be a melee focused ranger, which is something I always wanted to see. 

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2581
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2017, 02:42:33 PM »
Melee focused ranger with or without riding to god tier.
Give them pikes.

I will hunt Tektolnes like a fucking animal so help me.
Shade, profits, and George Bush did 9/11

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 18786
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2017, 06:25:11 AM »
I hold little value to wilderness quit these days. Quit-ooc and quit-rooms outside gates are a major reason why.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7510
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2017, 09:53:39 AM »
I wouldn't mind seeing just ONE more quit-safe room for "anyone" in Allanak: Somewhere between the eastern stables and Red's Retreat, that isn't the Silver Ginka. Maybe a niche between two buildings on Caravan near Meleth's Circle, or a patch of shade to the side of a hut in the southwestern corner of the bazaar.

City people need love too. Not just wilderness folks.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Bushranger

  • Posts: 1789
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2017, 10:19:20 AM »
I wouldn't mind seeing just ONE more quit-safe room for "anyone" in Allanak: Somewhere between the eastern stables and Red's Retreat, that isn't the Silver Ginka. Maybe a niche between two buildings on Caravan near Meleth's Circle, or a patch of shade to the side of a hut in the southwestern corner of the bazaar.

City people need love too. Not just wilderness folks.

I thought there was?
Quote from: Morgenes
Ya..what Bushranger said...that's the ticket.
Quote from: Eukelade
Now I'm starving -1 karma Bushranger -1 karma.
Quote from: Shalooonsh
Kudos to you bushranger for confusing staff.
Skype: marcus.zozuk

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8260
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2017, 05:59:42 PM »
I believe the outer-yard of the Byn compound (accessible to the public) is a Quit room.
Quote from: janeshephard
You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Persona for GDB use only. Results in game may vary.

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 18786
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2017, 06:14:22 PM »
Is there a quit-room in the Temple? Been a while since I've been there. But if not that's a great place.