Author Topic: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek  (Read 14329 times)

Malken

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2017, 11:03:08 AM »
Man, sounds great!

Can't wait to retire in 20 years so I can start playing again for real.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Malken

  • Posts: 9086
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2017, 11:05:42 AM »
Does that include Rollout? Some of us have very valid fears about our current long lived pc's being completely useless in their originally designed roles/classes due to what SEEMS to be a massive increase in weapon skill caps. And we should not have to make sure our RL coincides with an announcement on a chat to have them dissuaded.

How do you plan to implement these? Will long lived PC's get to switch to the new system if they find their current class is not sitting where they feel there pc needs to be on this new chart?

A lot of these questions have been answered in the first few pages of the thread by Nergal I think. The posts are only a few months old so I think that the answers are probably still valid.

The current plan after the beta test is done is to let living characters at the time remain with the old classes, but new characters will not be able to select those classes. Over time as those old characters die out/store, everyone will eventually have one of the new classes.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9504
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2017, 12:36:42 PM »
Does that include Rollout? Some of us have very valid fears about our current long lived pc's being completely useless in their originally designed roles/classes due to what SEEMS to be a massive increase in weapon skill caps. And we should not have to make sure our RL coincides with an announcement on a chat to have them dissuaded.

How do you plan to implement these? Will long lived PC's get to switch to the new system if they find their current class is not sitting where they feel there pc needs to be on this new chart?

A lot of these questions have been answered in the first few pages of the thread by Nergal I think. The posts are only a few months old so I think that the answers are probably still valid.

The current plan after the beta test is done is to let living characters at the time remain with the old classes, but new characters will not be able to select those classes. Over time as those old characters die out/store, everyone will eventually have one of the new classes.

Now is your time to achieve that dwarven focus to be the greatest Warrior in the Known, people.  If you can survive long enough, you'll be the only one left!

Which of these will be available for d-elves?

Thought it was fairly obvious that Sun Runners would only get to play Dune Traders and Soh would only get to play Raiders?




Seriously though, going to hold off answering questions until Saturday.

The GDB is a better format for me to ask questions, because I'll be at work when the real-time Q&A is going on.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

HavokBlue

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2017, 10:57:32 PM »
Which of these will be available for d-elves?

Thought it was fairly obvious that Sun Runners would only get to play Dune Traders and Soh would only get to play Raiders?




Seriously though, going to hold off answering questions until Saturday.

Does that include Rollout? Some of us have very valid fears about our current long lived pc's being completely useless in their originally designed roles/classes due to what SEEMS to be a massive increase in weapon skill caps. And we should not have to make sure our RL coincides with an announcement on a chat to have them dissuaded.

How do you plan to implement these? Will long lived PC's get to switch to the new system if they find their current class is not sitting where they feel there pc needs to be on this new chart?

Your PC isn't useless in your current role and won't be made useless. Your PC is exactly as effective now as they were before. Your PC will be exactly as effective after the new guilds are launched as they are now. New guilds may have higher skill caps than your existing PC, but if your PC can mastercraft knotty fuckwood bangles now, they can mastercraft knotty fuckwood bangles post-launch too.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

Riev

  • Posts: 5157
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2017, 09:24:40 AM »
I believe the concern is that if a city assassin on the current system has significantly different skills or lower skill caps than "heavy combat criminal" in the grid, will people be allowed some sort of a switch?

We're all still playing a MUD here, not a MUSH. Some people may prefer their current skills, but certainly some people will want a taste of the "new" without needing to throw away a hundred hours of play time.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9504
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2017, 10:00:42 AM »
I believe the concern is that if a city assassin on the current system has significantly different skills or lower skill caps than "heavy combat criminal" in the grid, will people be allowed some sort of a switch?

We're all still playing a MUD here, not a MUSH. Some people may prefer their current skills, but certainly some people will want a taste of the "new" without needing to throw away a hundred hours of play time.

The new classes could be better.

They also could be worse.

My advice would be to just be patient.  Your PC will die eventually.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Fredd

  • Posts: 1716
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2017, 10:42:13 AM »

Your PC isn't useless in your current role and won't be made useless. Your PC is exactly as effective now as they were before. Your PC will be exactly as effective after the new guilds are launched as they are now. New guilds may have higher skill caps than your existing PC, but if your PC can mastercraft knotty fuckwood bangles now, they can mastercraft knotty fuckwood bangles post-launch too.

You are essentially taking some people who inteded to make one class,  and turning them into a complete other, and then going "You still have the same exact abilities, why are you crying about how there's now a bunch of new classes that are better at what you intended to make?"

If I didn't set out to make a middle of the road fighter 3 months ago, why the FUCK would I want my guy to randomly become one after playing him for 3 months?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 10:49:08 AM by Fredd »
You have never had the urge to kill yourself, before now.

The mighty Tektolnes says, in Highlord-accented sirihish,
"cast mon un shut the fuck up ~Valasurus"

Brytta Léofa

  • Posts: 462
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2017, 11:07:04 AM »
I'm cautiously super excited about this.

Biggest fear: that none of the new guilds will be as cool as ranger.
everything louder than everything else

seidhr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2017, 12:43:55 PM »

You are essentially taking some people who inteded to make one class,  and turning them into a complete other, and then going "You still have the same exact abilities, why are you crying about how there's now a bunch of new classes that are better at what you intended to make?"

If I didn't set out to make a middle of the road fighter 3 months ago, why the FUCK would I want my guy to randomly become one after playing him for 3 months?

We're not turning them into anything, is the thing.  They're the same as they ever were - as you go on and say yourself in the next sentence.   ???

Your really-great-at-fighting "warrior" will still be a really great fighter after the revamp.  He will not be "middle of the road."

Feels like complaining for the sake of complaining here.

Riev

  • Posts: 5157
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2017, 01:01:47 PM »
Feels like complaining for the sake of complaining here.

Feels like superiority demeaning concern here.

We have no information other than to wait for the AMA. As staff, you know all the answers. Some players also have much information from being ex-staff, friends with staff, etc.

There should be, and is, a legitimate concern that the framework of the game we all play together is changing. If I intended my Warrior/Slipknife to be more of a heavy city combat character, and not a heavy criminal combat character, how do I know I'm "where I should be"? I chose the guild and subguild combination based on factors that, with the revamp, may not be valid.

Have a mote of compassion or social tact and just say "your answers will have to wait for the AMA" rather than "Hmm sounds like complaining."
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Suhuy

  • Posts: 1047
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2017, 01:21:08 PM »
What Riev said.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9504
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2017, 01:34:52 PM »
It pretty much is pointless complaining at this point.

When you app'ed your current PC, you knew what you were getting, and that's what you have.  I don't understand why you would be upset about someone having something different.

It's like getting mad that you bought a 2015 vehicle and Ford won't automatically upgrade you to a 2018.  I mean...you would laugh at anyone who posed that as a serious expectation, right?
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Fredd

  • Posts: 1716
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2017, 01:46:28 PM »

You are essentially taking some people who inteded to make one class,  and turning them into a complete other, and then going "You still have the same exact abilities, why are you crying about how there's now a bunch of new classes that are better at what you intended to make?"

If I didn't set out to make a middle of the road fighter 3 months ago, why the FUCK would I want my guy to randomly become one after playing him for 3 months?

We're not turning them into anything, is the thing.  They're the same as they ever were - as you go on and say yourself in the next sentence.   ???

Your really-great-at-fighting "warrior" will still be a really great fighter after the revamp.  He will not be "middle of the road."

Feels like complaining for the sake of complaining here.

EXCUSE ME? Complaining for the sake of complaining? No. I'm complaining because it feels like you are doing a major patch to a game, and leaving everyone who has pc's on the old patch, with the old patch.

As Riev said. Some of us build people with an exact idea of how they will fit into the world. Now you are adjusting that overall fit, and telling me my complaint about things isn't valid.

For fucks sake, did you really just tell me my VALID CONCERN is fucking complaining for fucking complainings sake?  Some people are in PVP oriented clans. this update makes A HUGE IMPACT on how those people in those clans, can do their job. If they are a ranger. They just saw their combat ability fall quite a bit, because their ability to use weapons went from the second best in the game, to clearly in the middle. Yes they still have the same ability to fight. but the people they have to fight, suddenly became better then him.
 
Why the fuck did I come back to play this game if this is STILL how staff treats players worries?




You have never had the urge to kill yourself, before now.

The mighty Tektolnes says, in Highlord-accented sirihish,
"cast mon un shut the fuck up ~Valasurus"

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9504
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2017, 01:50:52 PM »
If you're playing in a combat clan, you and everyone else are probably plateaued way beneath your guild maxes, anyway, so I mean...you got nothing to worry about.  You'll all plateau at "middle-of-the-road" together.  ::)
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

seidhr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2017, 01:57:20 PM »
So you're saying we should just never update anything because when you made your PC 2 years ago, you had an understanding of where they fit into the game world.  So changing the game world, code mechanics, or virtually anything else that could (even indirectly - as in this case) impact your character is a bad idea.

That _is_ what you're saying.  And yeah, sorry - not sorry.


Synthesis

  • Posts: 9504
Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2017, 02:05:06 PM »
So you're saying we should just never update anything because when you made your PC 2 years ago, you had an understanding of where they fit into the game world.  So changing the game world, code mechanics, or virtually anything else that could (even indirectly - as in this case) impact your character is a bad idea.

That _is_ what you're saying.  And yeah, sorry - not sorry.

Nah, he's saying that if you change the game in some way, y'all owe him the ability to change his guild/subguild choices so that he doesn't suffer a perceived loss.

Another thought experiment:  let's say he rolled a warrior/master armorcrafter with the intent to mastercraft scrab shell items, but then y'all recoded scrabs so that they have (master) hide and are no longer aggro.  That would totally ruin his indie-solo-scrab-mastercrafter concept, because warriors can't scan, and the scrabs would all be sitting around hidden.  The argument wouldn't be "you can't do that to scrabs!" it would be "let me go back and pick ranger/master armorcrafter, because I can't do what I wanted to do anymore."

It's still not a reasonable expectation, but it's not what you've described.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Brokkr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2017, 02:15:08 PM »
This was announced in April.  If you started a PC 3 months ago, the answer was already there if we were going to convert you or not.

The absolute power of current guilds remains unchanged.  The relational power between existing guilds remains unchanged.  There will be a new relational power dynamic with the new guilds for existing guilds, but in that sense will not be any different than the relational power dynamic between new guilds themselves, as none of them are in play.  Putting your specific concerns around that into a specific question would be the sort of thing that would be great for the AMA.

If you, like Synthesis, are not able to attend the AMA, I would suggest using the AMA thread to clearly pose questions that you would like to see addressed.  It may well be you remind your fellow players to raise issues they may not have thought about during the AMA by doing so.  If we have time, and there are questions on areas not brought up by other players, it also gives staff a pool to draw questions from.

Adhira

  • Producer
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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2017, 02:16:36 PM »
Brokkr made a post to give some information on upcoming changes to help people formulate questions for this Saturdays discussion. Earlier on in the piece he did state that we would not be answering questions on this thread. I understand that some of you are impatient and want to know now, I also understand that some of you may not be able to, or do not wish to attend the discussion on Saturday.  Unfortunately that is where we are going to be discussing these changes in the first instance. As Brokkr has mentioned you are welcome to submit questions that we will try and address in the AMA. I will make a new, separate thread for that now.

A reminder to all - please keep your language and tone civil.   If you have a serious complaint or problem then submit a request so that we can discuss it properly. 

For now I'm locking this thread. Brokkr may continue to post updates here, but since we're not having any actual discussion there is no point keeping it as a discussing item. After this weekends chat we will post the log and may open up a different thread for discussion.
"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

Brokkr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #118 on: November 28, 2017, 01:15:07 AM »
I asked the play testers of the new classes to drop some feedback if they wanted to, and I would post anonymously for the overall playerbase.  Since it has only been a couple of weeks, most folks are just starting to get settled in to their characters, but I thought it would be nice for folks to have some first thoughts from other players.  Here is what a few of them had to say, unedited:

Quote
Based on my experience with one class, it seems like some good thought has been put into the new systems. Any worried rangers afraid that they're going to lose their favorite guild should not be.

Quote
I find the new guild I have been testing to be very flexible and adaptable to a wide variety of city roles with a little bit of forethought. I find myself with more options than I had on similar old guilds.

Quote
The class I've been trying has a pretty broad selection of starting skills and gets even more versatile with a little branching (which doesn't take as long as it used to due to skill levels starting out a bit higher). It also seems to work by itself, I didn't have to pick a subguild to fill any gaps. I'm not sure if the skillcaps will work out, but at this point that's speculation as I haven't hit them yet.

The guild sniffing is pretty hilarious  ;D

Quote
Having picked one of the varieties of heavy combat, mine very much has that warrior vibe but with a few extra bits and bobs to make it feel a bit more a versatile. Since it's mostly combat, it's crazy early days to give too much feedback but it's going fairly well in that regard.

Quote
I'm trying a class that would fall in the ranger class family and it has been a blast to play so far. All the important skills start out at a reasonable level, and the class feels very well balanced. Looking forward to seeing how the class continues to progress.

Quote
I'm very encouraged about the new classes by what I've seen so far. For the class I'm trying, the starting skills and their levels allow for a more capable, versatile character right from the start.

Quote
The class I am playing is one of the city based more mixed classes and to be honest, it's pretty awesome.  I like how I have some combat skills (surprisingly good ones) and also a bit of crafting.  Kinda wish the crafting was a bit higher starting skill wise as finding usable recopies has been rough, but it's rather nice to have some starting, useful, crafts.


note:  Artisan is still lacking a play tester.  If you were going to start a merchant anyways, it is something to think about!

Brokkr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2017, 12:55:58 AM »
And some more...

Quote
So far I’m a big fan.  I was pleasantly surprised by both the collection of skills and the starting levels.  Don’t mistake the “light” in “light combat” for “somewhat weak” like I first did.  A “light” PC with good stats can still wreck house.

Quote
If you were looking for a break from warrior, ranger, merchant, and thief classes times three, then you'll enjoy this.  I've only played one class, but I can tell from my own class and the feedback from others that this is going to bring a lot more variety to the game.

Quote
My class has a wide range of useful skills that could let a character fresh out of chargen fit into most of the city clans without raising an eyebrow or having everyone overlook the fact that they never improve at anything.  Pretty sustainable, but with just enough limitations that involving other characters as an indie is preferable.  I chose a non-karma subguild to see what the newbie experience would be, and high grades so far.

Brokkr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2017, 07:07:06 PM »
Quote
I'm very pleased with the class I'm testing so far. I was surprised that the class delivered much more than I was expecting. It's a great improvement over the guild that currently serves this class's role.

Brokkr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #121 on: February 13, 2018, 10:15:18 PM »
It has been a little over three months since we started play testing new classes.  The testing will continue until we have the classes at a point we feel comfortable releasing them for general play.

We have accomplished a lot in terms of getting the classes ready to play.  A lot of the code work done is not transparent to players, in that it was background work on how guilds and skill sets are handled by the code.  Some things you may have seen updates for, such as the Feb. 10 release notes which gives us more control over how skill trees branch.  Other things have not been visible, such as changing the way abilities, such as the ranger ability to quit out in the wilderness, are assigned to different classes.

The play testers have given us a lot of feedback, which has been extremely helpful.  There is still a lot of useful feedback to be had from players in live situations as we continue this process.  Once piece of feedback, for example, had to wait until the Feb. 10 code release.  With that code change, we were able to incorporate feedback that if archery branches from using crossbows, or vice versa, it shouldn’t take unduly long practicing one type of ranged combat before the other is unlocked.

While overall we are happy with how things have progressed, there are a handful of specific classes that we feel need a bit more of a niche in terms of what they can do versus similar classes.  Without a niche, it can feel as if other classes are always a better pick.  That is what we are working on now. 

Brokkr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #122 on: March 27, 2018, 12:15:56 PM »
Quote from: Discord Sponsored Roles Chat Session
MarshallDFX - Last Saturday at 9:29 PM
Not sponsored role related.. but..
What's the latest on the new classes?  What's the general timeline looking like?  Very related: How much transparency on the skill trees will there be?  (I'm in favor of transparency)

Nathvaan - Last Saturday at 9:31 PM
Well, the specifics of that is a tiny bit out of my wheelhouse as that's been managed by Brokkr.  I can say I do read all the feedback on the beta guilds and they are mostly positive.  I'll ask Brokkr to update via the GDB on that part.

We've identified the classes that need something extra to give them some pizzaz or uniqueness, and working through what that means in terms of any additions at a code level.

There is no general timeline, there are milestones that are linked to activity rather than time.  One milestone will be when we think we have all the code we think we'll need in place.  Another milestone will be when we think we've gotten all the skill addition/removal/tweaks in place that we want to do.  Another milestone will be when we've had some chance to test beyond that milestone...and that is the one which would bring about the go live.

Testers have all been sent the help file for the class they are playing.  Here is an example of what the help files currently look like, with bogus stuff, although this is subject to change depending on tester feedback (we really haven't grappled with the question of whether to include branching or not yet):

COOKIE MONSTER

Striking fear into the heart of cookies everywhere, the cookie monster class is known for its murderous efficiency when combating hordes of cookies.  Glasses of milk are also dealt with vigorously, although only after vast amounts of cookies are eaten.  While primarily dealing with destruction of cookies, cookie monsters are also capable bakers, ensuring they don't go hungry when no wild herds of cookies can be found.

Starts with the following skills, which progress up to:

Master:  cookie eating, crumb production, gobbling noises
Advanced:  milk drinking, forage
Journeyman:  brushing teeth

May eventually acquire the following skills through use, which progress up to:

Master:  eating stacks of cookies at once, burping
Advanced:  chocolate chip cookie making, snickerdoodle cookie making, raisan oatmeal cookie making
Journeyman:  mouthwash

Abilities:
Can forage for cookies
Can quit out in cookieland

Brokkr

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Re: Guild Revamp - Sneak Peek
« Reply #123 on: May 27, 2018, 01:28:29 PM »
Happy Memorial Day!

HEAVY COMBAT GUILDS
Heavy combat guilds are talented in combat in general, and focus primarily on
melee combat. They have barely any mercantile skill and a small amount of survival
skill. Since they are the most competent in combat out-of-the-box, players who choose them
will likely lean toward combat and antagonist roles.

LIGHT COMBAT GUILDS
Light combat guilds are competent in combat, though not as talented in it as their
heavy counterparts. They make up for it with greater knowledge in mercantile and
survival skills.

MIXED GUILDS
Neither as competent in combat as the combat guilds, nor as competent in
mercantile things as the mercantile guilds, mixed guilds rely on a mixture of
talents and a great deal of strength in survival skills.

LIGHT MERCANTILE GUILDS
These guilds lean more toward the craft and barter skills, but not quite as much
as the heavy mercantile guilds. They make up for that with a good mixture of
combat and survival skills, which they can achieve competency in.

HEAVY MERCANTILE GUILDS
These guilds go all-in on barter and craft skills, sacrificing most talent in all but the most specific of combat and survival skills.

These descriptions have been around for awhile, acting as both help file for the future as well as design direction for the different competencies.